A genuine question to non-LoI fans

stovelid · 29-07-2009 8:10pm

The Rooster wrote: »

The good players go to play in the Premier League or Championship, the one's who arent good enough stay in the LoI..

The cream of many leagues around the world go to the top European leagues but still leave a decent league scene back home.

We should get away from the perception that a league needs to be La Liga, EPL, or Serie A to qualify as a league.

GuanYin · 29-07-2009 8:11pm

I think that some people have a very romantic notion of what a soccer club is.

It is, first and foremost, a business. It just appears, that in Ireland, these businesses are run very badly and then the blame put on lack of interest. I would love to see the business plans and models for the clubs in the Irish league. Everything I have seen suggests that most clubs don't have them.

Now I understand there is a notion that the soccer clubs are a community thing, that the people should want to get involved and help out and be supportive. These points may be true, but then so are local grocery stores and coffee shops, people still go to Starbucks and CostCo because at the end of the day, it's business and people will go for the value that is best.

You need to be realistic. If the Irish league was to get a huge cash injection and suddenly found itself competing with the EPL, would the soccer clubs like Cork keep it's prices down for tickets and shirts and merchandise? I'm happy to bet the wouldn't. Why? Because they will take advantage of their position to earn as much as possible.

Soccer clubs, like any other business, need to be responsible, set up a sustainable model and work up from there. Quick solutions, hand outs and the blame game will get them nowhere.

I watched the birth of two professional soccer leagues in the US, I'm involved in the WPS at a low level. Both Leagues expected to run at losses for the first few years. They designed their plans and models around this. When the franchises did start making profit, the league started building and I think it is undeniable that US soccer is improving.

I still think the Irish league needs to stop, sit down, look at sustainability and marketing first and foremost and build from there.

stovelid · 29-07-2009 8:15pm

GuanYin wrote: »

It just appears, that in Ireland, these businesses are run very badly and then the blame put on lack of interest. I would love to see the business plans and models for the clubs in the Irish league. Everything I have seen suggests that most clubs don't have them.

In fairness, when is the last time you've seen a LOI supporter on here lauding the business acumen of our clubs and the FAI?

GuanYin · 29-07-2009 8:31pm

stovelid wrote: »

In fairness, when is the last time you've seen a LOI supporter on here lauding the business acumen of our clubs and the FAI?

Oh never, but I think that were I a supporter, I'd be more worried about the clubs business plan than the results.... the two are linked anyway...

You guys are paying the money, you guys should ensure it's used wisely.

The Rooster · 29-07-2009 8:45pm

stovelid wrote: »

The cream of many leagues around the world go to the top European leagues but still leave a decent league scene back home.

We should get away from the perception that a league needs to be La Liga, EPL, or Serie A to qualify as a league.

Not next door, and not receiving all the UK channels. But as I said that's only one part. What other small country (where every top quality player leaves the country) has two other big sports competing against it and still has a successful league? The best rugby players vs the best GAA players v the also rans soccer players.

stovelid · 29-07-2009 8:45pm

GuanYin wrote: »

Oh never, but I think that were I a supporter, I'd be more worried about the clubs business plan than the results.... the two are linked anyway...

You guys are paying the money, you guys should ensure it's used wisely.

I, for one, would rather a team didn't win a thing if it meant going so close to the brink again. I'm sure the Shels fans feel that way too. It's a lesson that looks like having a sad application for Cork and perhaps Bohs soon too.

Seriously, I would never shy away from the way that clubs have been run so disastrously in the past - like petty fiefdoms. Or the chronic mismanagement of the FAI.

I don't think saying that the effect of the close proximity of a glamorous league like the EPL (and our cultural symbiosis to the UK) to our own league is dodging the hard questions at home though.

LuckyLloyd · 29-07-2009 8:59pm

Des wrote: »

You mean let the league go under?

Do you realise that would mean no national team?

Not true. Once we have an amateur / mostly amateur national league competition, we can have a national team. This is the crux of the issue.

You want the league to be something it cannot be at present - fully professional, well attended and holding a pride of place amongst football fans in this country. The clubs in financial trouble have extended themselves financially beyond the level of support that currently exists.

If they significantly slash and curtail costs, the clubs can survive in some form or another. That may mean a lower quality of football, hammerings in Europe and less media attention. But surely that is better than clubs going to the wall and ceasing to exist?

CUT YOUR ****ING COSTS.

GuanYin · 29-07-2009 9:05pm

I think that is the issue LL, the fans want the cake and expect to be able to eat it too.

If the Irish League has no money to invest, then cut the costs, run an amateur league well and then in the future, if they have money, upscale.

The pros? You'll have a good model, grass roots system, good structure, little debt and sustained history and small, loyal fan base.

The cons? You'll have no glory, lose any ability to retain good players, have lesser European showings and loss of TV games.

The pro's outweigh the cons imo. Live to fight another day.

_blank_ · 29-07-2009 9:06pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

CUT YOUR ****ING COSTS.

The club I support HAS cut costs, Shamrock Rovers have too, UCD do it right, and now so do Drogs.

DSB · 29-07-2009 9:08pm

If you people actually paid attention to the league and the fans (and yes I know you go to a few UCD games LL) you'd know that very few fans want a fully professional league, thats normally reserved for crazy chairmen.

stovelid · 29-07-2009 9:35pm

The issue of being amateur/part-time/full-time is a little meaningless and seems to be used more to denote aspiration or ambition (or lack of) than anything else.

Basically, clubs should just pay wages based on the income that they generate. Not money that they can't.

For smaller clubs, that means amateur.

The bigger clubs, if ran on a sensible footing, could easily afford semi-pro squads - with a radical recalibration of exactly what qualifies as a pro-wage, of course.

cournioni · 29-07-2009 9:41pm

Des wrote: »

I'm not trying to start a LoI -vs- EPL debate here, god knows we have enough of those.

A simple question to those Irish football fans, who don't support a LoI team.

Do you care that Cork City are going out of existence?

Another few.

Do you care that other clubs with as much history as the team which you do actually support are going to the wall?

If you do care, do you care enough to do anything about it?

Something like make an undertaking to give up an hour and a half on a Friday night for the rest of the LoI season and go to the club nearest you?

I don't care about the "standard" or "the state of the kip", they are non-issues here.

Could you see yourself doing that?

First and foremost... Cork City are not going to the wall because of the fans, they are going to the wall because of the total mismanagement by its owner. Cork City have always been one of the best supported teams in the country and have always played attractive football. They are one of my favourite teams to watch in the LoI. There shouldn't be a reason for them to go bust other than mismanagement, because there is a support base there.

Clubs go to the wall because of the jokers running them. That stands for any club going bust in the world. You do not spend €10 when you can only afford something worth €5 and that is what has happened. Now I know that isn't any consolation to the Cork fans or any other fan in a similar situation, but that is the way it is.

I go to a good few of Dundalks home games and I enjoy being there almost as much as I enjoy going to Old Trafford to see my beloved United. I've been to Shels, Bohs and Drogs games when they've been playing in Europe because I like to support any team representing my country in Europe... But let me put one thing straight, I feel in no way obliged to go to any game because a club is in financial trouble. Clubs are in financial trouble because of their own faults, and I include Man Utd in that bracket.

LuckyLloyd · 29-07-2009 9:44pm

Des wrote: »

The club I support HAS cut costs, Shamrock Rovers have too, UCD do it right, and now so do Drogs.

Yeah, and clubs like Cork, Boh's and Galway should be emulating these models rather than being in their current messes. Right?

DSB wrote: »

If you people actually paid attention to the league and the fans (and yes I know you go to a few UCD games LL) you'd know that very few fans want a fully professional league, thats normally reserved for crazy chairmen.

Maybe so, and bohsman posted earlier this week that a lot of Boh's members have been pushing financial prudence in whatever ways they can for a while now.

However, there still seems to be fans of the LOI who are pointing the finger of blame for the situation some clubs find themselves everywhere before pointing it at the clubs themselves.

stovelid wrote: »

The issue of being amateur/part-time/full-time is a little meaningless and seems to be used more to denote aspiration or ambition (or lack of) than anything else.

Basically, clubs should just pay wages based on the income that they generate. Not money that they can't.

For smaller clubs, that means amateur.

The bigger clubs, if ran on a sensible footing, could easily afford semi-pro squads - with a radical recalibration of exactly what qualifies as a pro-wage, of course.

Look, don't overspend, achieve stability. Then come after the Irish footballing fans who don't attend games, try and get more people to come / get involved and gradually increase your outlay in parallel with whatever increase of support you achieve.

Come on lads, you have clubs trying to run before they can competently crawl. I can't have any sympathy for such stupidity. Sorry.

Foxx92 · 29-07-2009 9:45pm

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

The league needs to be better promoted by the fai. An ad on tv showing two guys in an empty ground will never promote the league. Show an add with real footage of fans heading to the ground. Show the fans singing in the ground, show the passion of the fans when a goal is scored and show some of the best goals from the league. Then tell people, this is your league, come and support it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT0DJQ0sXng

Handsome Bob · 29-07-2009 9:50pm

Yes, I do care, and think this is a good idea

Of course I care that teams are financially faltering, people are losing a living at the end of the day. I know three people who play in the League of Ireland and with no leaving cert or other qualifications, they'd be lost if football wasn't an option (or at least not an option at an income that will sustain their cost of living).

However I just can't get a passion for the league. This is also someone who has actually tried to get into it as there was once a time when I went to Shelbourne games every week for months.

That being said, if I wasn't a poor student and had a job I wouldn't mind at all going to home games every Friday. I would definitely go in fact because although I didn't have the passion for who was playing, the atmosphere and banter would be some craic. Indeed if I had money to burn I would definitely go. :pac:

Pro. F · 29-07-2009 9:51pm

DSB wrote: »

Alot would be addressed if people dropped the knowitall attitude and just came to matches.

How is my opinion any more knowitall than yours? Calling other people's arguments know-it-all attitude is a childish avoidance of discussion imo.

People sticking their heads in the sand about the incompetant running of Irish football and just asking for charity for LOI clubs won't solve anything imo.

stovelid · 29-07-2009 9:52pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Look, don't overspend, achieve stability. .

Lloyd: quit quoting me and parroting back your mantra.

I AGREE WITH THE ABOVE.

Please point me to anywhere in this thread -or this forum - where I have advocated that LOI clubs should spend money that they don't have.

cournioni · 29-07-2009 9:57pm

With the people that are running the clubs that are spending way over their budget on players and players wages at the moment... Even if the LoI grounds were full to the brim every week, the people running them would find another way to flush the money down the toilet. IMO.

Dave! · 29-07-2009 10:07pm

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Eircom league

Uh oh :eek::pac:

stovelid · 29-07-2009 10:12pm

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

My problem with some of your comments DES is my club is dismissed on the basis that (1) We have no history and (2) We get around the 65% rule)
.

Of course you're dismissed for it.

LuckyLloyd · 29-07-2009 10:13pm

stovelid wrote: »

Lloyd: quit quoting me and parroting back your mantra.

I AGREE WITH THE ABOVE.

Please point me to anywhere in this thread -or this forum - where I have advocated that LOI clubs should spend money that they don't have.

Okay, but this is the most pressing problem right now. All the other stuff (barstoolers, real fans attend games, media bias, LOI incompetance, etc) can't be pushed until you can stand infront of people and say with confidence "all our clubs are doing things the right way".

_blank_ · 29-07-2009 10:14pm

stovelid wrote: »

Lloyd: quit quoting me and parroting back your mantra.

I AGREE WITH THE ABOVE.

Please point me to anywhere in this thread -or this forum - where I have advocated that LOI clubs should spend money that they don't have.

me too, Lloyd, you are targeting the wrong people, for whatever reasons you have, or agenda you are pushing.

You are making it look like the people you are quoting are saying the complete opposite to you.

That is not the case.

Handsome Bob · 29-07-2009 10:16pm

Yes, I do care, and think this is a good idea

Dave! wrote: »

Uh oh :eek::pac:

Sorry, sorry League of Ireland it is. :pac:

DSB · 29-07-2009 10:32pm

Pro. F wrote: »

How is my opinion any more knowitall than yours? Calling other people's arguments know-it-all attitude is a childish avoidance of discussion imo.

People sticking their heads in the sand about the incompetant running of Irish football and just asking for charity for LOI clubs won't solve anything imo.

Because I'd clearly have a much more educated opinion on the LOI than someone who kinda keeps themselves updated on it, but by and large doesn't really know whats going on half the time, even though they think they do.

I guarantee you now, if half the people on here actually started going to games regularly, their opinion on it would change, and the business side of things wouldn't become irrelevant, but it'd definitely take the back seat.

cournioni · 29-07-2009 11:00pm

DSB wrote: »

I guarantee you now, if half the people on here actually started going to games regularly, their opinion on it would change, and the business side of things wouldn't become irrelevant, but it'd definitely take the back seat.

What good does an opinion do? I go to LoI games on a reasonably regular basis. I enjoy the craic at the game and I enjoy the atmosphere. That isn't going to change anything DSB. There will still be idiots running clubs and they will still go bust, no matter how many people come in the gate.

We see what Shels have done since sticking 24000 people on seats in Lansdowne Road. They shot themselves in the foot after that money spinner rather than investing in grass roots and Tolka Park. But they decided to piss alot of it away on players wages. We see what Drogheda have done, we see what Shamrock Rovers have done and we are now now seeing what Cork have done. Its no coincidence.

SectionF · 29-07-2009 11:32pm

GuanYin wrote: »

It is, first and foremost, a business.

No it isn't. It is, first and foremost, and regardless of market dogma, a sport.

cournioni · 29-07-2009 11:34pm

SectionF wrote: »

No it isn't. It is, first and foremost, and regardless of market dogma, a sport.

It is a business. The players are employees as they are paid wages. Until they are fully amateur it is first and foremost a business.

TheBigLebowski · 29-07-2009 11:53pm

angel01 wrote: »

Ok fair enough but like I say when I did go and watch Bohs play, it was painful dreadful football and it was worse than non league in other countries. I am afraid the quality isn't good enough and that is why people won't waste their money, time or effort. If it is on the tv and there is nothing better on, I will watch, other than that, I won't bother.

Was it really that bad or were you not able to enjoy it because you didn't have Andy Gray there to convince you it was a good game? I've heard the "quality" crap for years from a lot of people and most of the people that say it to me wouldn't know quality football if they were sat in the centre circle.... unless Andy was there with his 42 camera angles and ultra slow motion...

The difference in quality between your average Premiership footballer and your average Premier Division footballer is a few percent. Both are well capable of playing decent attractive football. The Premiership footballer will likely be slightly quicker and slightly stronger but this in no way detracts from the "quality" or entertainment of what's on offer.

I honestly think that if Irish Premiership fans were to abandon their TV's and go to live Premiership games week in, week out, they would see that watching live football in England is very similar to what you'll see in Ireland. A lot of Premiership games that I have seen in the last few years have been very dull affairs with neither teams playing well, but the pub will be packed with punters, while around the corner there might be a very entertaining encounter between 2 LOI teams. Maybe the LOI stadiums need Andy Grays over the PA and slow motion replays on the big screens...

Anyway, rant over. Gone way off topic.

Pro. F · 30-07-2009 12:13am

DSB wrote: »

Because I'd clearly have a much more educated opinion on the LOI than someone who kinda keeps themselves updated on it, but by and large doesn't really know whats going on half the time, even though they think they do.

I didn't claim to know more about the LOI than you. But instead of just telling me that I don't know what i'm talking about how about actually addressing the point I made. Or do I have to go to LOI games every week before I can say that the FAI is a shambles and that plenty of LOI clubs are being run into the ground? I'm open to correction on this but I would be amazed if you were able to get down off your high horse and show me evidence that the league is well run.

DSB wrote: »

I guarantee you now, if half the people on here actually started going to games regularly, their opinion on it would change, and the business side of things wouldn't become irrelevant, but it'd definitely take the back seat.

So if I went to the games regularly I wouldn't think that the organisation of football in Ireland is fcuked? Maybe i'd get caught up in the atmosphere and be able to stick my head in the sand.. but, you know what, I doubt it because tbh I'm just not that thick.

LuckyLloyd · 30-07-2009 12:18am

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

I honestly think that if Irish Premiership fans were to abandon their TV's and go to live Premiership games week in, week out, they would see that watching live football in England is very similar to what you'll see in Ireland. A lot of Premiership games that I have seen in the last few years have been very dull affairs with neither teams playing well, but the pub will be packed with punters, while around the corner there might be a very entertaining encounter between 2 LOI teams. Maybe the LOI stadiums need Andy Grays over the PA and slow motion replays on the big screens...

Strongly disagree with this. Having been to LOI Premier, LOI First Division, EPL, Championship, EPL in Champions league, and LOI Champions in Champions League qualifiers games over the past couple of years, I have to say that the football on offer at the higher levels blows the LOI away. It's faster, it's more technical and it's less tactically naive.

TheBigLebowski · 30-07-2009 12:30am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's faster, it's more technical and it's less tactically naive.

Andy, is that you?

LuckyLloyd · 30-07-2009 12:39am

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Andy, is that you?

lol, that is my actual opinion from going to see games live in the flesh. Attempting to paw off properly informed and long developed opinions that you dislike by painting me as a tool of what I hear on Sky doesn't cut it. Anyone who has read a smattering of my posts on here would quickly realize that I ain't buying what pundits have to tell me about the game a lot of the time.

Ultimately, there are football fans out there who passionately follow the game and understand it well enough (relatively speaking) and have reached an honest conclusion in line with my above post. Like it or lump it, it is reality.

Boggles · 30-07-2009 12:58am

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Was it really that bad or were you not able to enjoy it because you didn't have Andy Gray there to convince you it was a good game? I've heard the "quality" crap for years from a lot of people and most of the people that say it to me wouldn't know quality football if they were sat in the centre circle.... unless Andy was there with his 42 camera angles and ultra slow motion...

I'm old enough to remember the russion roulette of the one live game a fornight on Rte 2, 90 minutes of stuttering commentary and that more than frequent cut to that stupid coloured clock when ever some moronic past his sell by date RTE engineer tripped over a cable.

Give me Andy and his 42 cameras everyday of the week. Most modern televisions have a mute button if it annoys you that much, I suggest you use it.

Lamper.sffc · 30-07-2009 2:32am

stovelid wrote: »

Of course you're dismissed for it.

Well done. Ignore the rest of the post i made.

Take a part of what im saying so its out of context and quote it to try and prove some silly point you have.
The point is certain people dont talk about the positive our club does. Care to comment on any of that? I doubt you will.

Head in the sand my friend. Unbelievable what some people do to prove they are right.

Morzadec · 30-07-2009 2:32am

Yes, I do care, but not enough to do anything

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Was it really that bad or were you not able to enjoy it because you didn't have Andy Gray there to convince you it was a good game? I've heard the "quality" crap for years from a lot of people and most of the people that say it to me wouldn't know quality football if they were sat in the centre circle.... unless Andy was there with his 42 camera angles and ultra slow motion...

The difference in quality between your average Premiership footballer and your average Premier Division footballer is a few percent. Both are well capable of playing decent attractive football. The Premiership footballer will likely be slightly quicker and slightly stronger but this in no way detracts from the "quality" or entertainment of what's on offer.

I honestly think that if Irish Premiership fans were to abandon their TV's and go to live Premiership games week in, week out, they would see that watching live football in England is very similar to what you'll see in Ireland. A lot of Premiership games that I have seen in the last few years have been very dull affairs with neither teams playing well, but the pub will be packed with punters, while around the corner there might be a very entertaining encounter between 2 LOI teams. Maybe the LOI stadiums need Andy Grays over the PA and slow motion replays on the big screens...

Anyway, rant over. Gone way off topic.

Lol, Are you for real? People don't think that the EPL is of superior quality because of Andy Gray, what a ridiculous argument! To be honest I think Andy Gray is a knob and I love the EPL. They think it's better quality football because, surprisingly enough, it is better quality. Fact.

If the LoI was anywhere near the quality then you can bet that the top players from LoI would have been snapped up by a Premier League or other top European club where they would multiply their wages 5-fold, 6-fold, 7-fold. (I could probably continue quoting far larger numbers.) Do you really think Gary Twigg or whoever would be stay in the LoI earning a (relative) pittance if he was good enough to even be a third or fourth choice striker at a poor Premier League side where he would probably earn 5-10 times as much?!

Also, if the LoI was anywhere near the standard of the EPL we would see Irish teams progressing further in Europe.

I'm afraid you can't romanticize or gloss over these facts. The top LoI sides would struggle in the Championship IMO, which is a massive step below the Premier League.

dyl10 · 30-07-2009 3:16am

Although I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments toward Andy Gray, Morzadec, I believe you've missed the quoted posters point.

He wasn't talking about Andy Gray per se, but the window dressing that accompanies the most promoted league in the world. If the footballing standard of the premiership fell considerably in comparison to la liga, there wouldn't be a sudden exodus of premiership supporting fans in Ireland, changing to support Spanish teams. That would then suggest that supporters of the premiership don't support premiership teams for the sake of talent or quality, but on the basis of other factors.

I follow leagues from Leinster Senior up to the Premiership. I don't follow the premiership because it's a higher standard(I know I could derive as much excitement at any game between players of professional standard given the correct conditions). The Premiership is so attractive because of the fanfare and the vast amount of money that goes into making it more appealing. To claim that people follow the premiership over the LOI purely on the basis on footballing talent, is as ludicrous as suggesting that LOI is of similar standard to EPL. The average soccer fan probably wouldn't be able to distinguish the attributes that set the average proffessional footballer ahead of the next.

The premiership is soap opera, and a pretty damn good one at that!

TheBigLebowski · 30-07-2009 3:24am

Morzadec wrote: »

Lol, Are you for real? People don't think that the EPL is of superior quality because of Andy Gray, what a ridiculous argument! To be honest I think Andy Gray is a knob and I love the EPL. They think it's better quality football because, surprisingly enough, it is better quality. Fact.

What do you mean by better quality football? This quality thing is nonsense. I have stated that I believe that Premiership players would be slightly quicker/stronger and maybe a little more skillful and that makes them that bit better footballers. People put these players up on pedestal like they're superhuman.

Morzadec wrote: »

If the LoI was anywhere near the quality then you can bet that the top players from LoI would have been snapped up by a Premier League or other top European club where they would multiply their wages 5-fold, 6-fold, 7-fold. (I could probably continue quoting far larger numbers.) .

Are you for real? They HAVE been snapped up. Roy Keane, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Keith Fahy, Noel Hunt. Should I go on?

Morzadec wrote: »

Do you really think Gary Twigg or whoever would be stay in the LoI earning a (relative) pittance if he was good enough to even be a third or fourth choice striker at a poor Premier League side where he would probably earn 5-10 times as much?!

See above. Many of the leagues best players have proven themselves to be able to hold their own in England but you do know that there are a limited number of places available at English clubs and a lot of players competing for these places but don't fool yourself, often there is little between the players that get picked and those that don't.

Morzadec wrote: »

Also, if the LoI was anywhere near the standard of the EPL we would see Irish teams progressing further in Europe.

Apart from Irish sides being able to hold their own against some quality European opposition in recent years (most recently Boh against Salzburg), see above about Premiership players being quicker stronger etc. I'm not doubting that. That does not mean that LOI players are not capable of playing quality entertaining football.

Morzadec wrote: »

I'm afraid you can't romanticize or gloss over these facts. The top LoI sides would struggle in the Championship IMO, which is a massive step below the Premier League.

Did I say they would win the Premiership or championship?
No english club would win La Liga, so does that you mean you should stop watching Premiership and only watch La Liga? Does that mean Premiership 'quality' is crap?
Premiership fans have such a skewed perspective on what football is all about.

TheBigLebowski · 30-07-2009 3:37am

dyl10 wrote: »

Although I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments toward Andy Gray, Morzadec, I believe you've missed the quoted posters point.

He wasn't talking about Andy Gray per se, but the window dressing that accompanies the most promoted league in the world. If the footballing standard of the premiership fell considerably in comparison to la liga, there wouldn't be a sudden exodus of premiership supporting fans in Ireland, changing to support Spanish teams. That would then suggest that supporters of the premiership don't support premiership teams for the sake of talent or quality, but on the basis of other factors.

I follow leagues from Leinster Senior up to the Premiership. I don't follow the premiership because it's a higher standard(I know I could derive as much excitement at any game between players of professional standard given the correct conditions). The Premiership is so attractive because of the fanfare and the vast amount of money that goes into making it more appealing. To claim that people follow the premiership over the LOI purely on the basis on footballing talent, is as ludicrous as suggesting that LOI is of similar standard to EPL. The average soccer fan probably wouldn't be able to distinguish the attributes that set the average proffessional footballer ahead of the next.

The premiership is soap opera, and a pretty damn good one at that!

A good example of this 'fanfare' factor is the recent Rovers - Madrid friendly. I was at the match and I thought it was a great occasion but not a great or even good game of football. Madrid had loads of posession but didn't do much with it and didn't play well. Rovers didn't play that well either.

Anywho I was talking to a good few Premiership fans afterwards who had all watched the game on TV and almost all said that they enjoyed it and thought it was good to watch!?! Now I couldn't understand this as it was a friendly and not half as entertaining as most of the LOI games that I watch every week. That was until I watched the sky sports coverage afterwards and realised why they were kept interested. The coverage was absolutely top class with good commentators and excellent footage and the prematch buildup was very entertaining. Add to this the fact that the star of the premieship soap opera was on the pitch. To me THIS is what really convinced the Premiership fans that they were watching a good match.

mayordenis · 30-07-2009 3:46am

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

A good example of this 'fanfare' factor is the recent Rovers - Madrid friendly. I was at the match and I thought it was a great occasion but not a great or even good game of football. Madrid had loads of posession but didn't do much with it and didn't play well. Rovers didn't play that well either.

Anywho I was talking to a good few Premiership fans afterwards who had all watched the game on TV and almost all said that they enjoyed it and thought it was good to watch!?! Now I couldn't understand this as it was a friendly and not half as entertaining as most of the LOI games that I watch every week. That was until I watched the sky sports coverage afterwards and realised why they were kept interested. The coverage was absolutely top class with good commentators and excellent footage and the prematch buildup was very entertaining. Add to this the fact that the star of the premieship soap opera was on the pitch. To me THIS is what really convinced the Premiership fans that they were watching a good match.

as an epl and well I like to think of myself as a football fan more generally than that, I thought it was certainly a shite match.
But I enjoy watching pretty much any game of football.

But there is no doubt that what your saying is good, would more people watch LOI if it was well packaged and presented and on at a suitable time, of course. However it isn't.

bohsman · 30-07-2009 5:20am

Why do people support the Irish national team? I really dont see any argument here that couldnt go for supporting England and not caring about Ireland (kinda like pre 1990 without the supporting England bit)

mayordenis · 30-07-2009 5:29am

bohsman wrote: »

Why do people support the Irish national team? I really dont see any argument here that couldnt go for supporting England and not caring about Ireland (kinda like pre 1990 without the supporting England bit)

Well (I'm not arguing the point, it's not exactly how I feel, just what I expect to be the most common answer), many people still have the nationalistic connection to there country, but see no connection to alot of the clubs around.
Many of them only being (at least seeming) exclusivly for certain sections of society. ie. certain clubs being very working class or something, feeling unwelcome if you try to support.

anyway really just playing devils advocate so feel free to debate or show be where I'm wrong. But no tirades please.

nkay1985 · 30-07-2009 5:39am

If Waterford United were going to the wall, I would certainly care, and I would care enough to do something about it, but I wouldn't go to a game every Friday night.

I had a lot of good times with them in my early years and my teens so I would feel a great loss if they were to cease to be. When the club was in a bad way a few years back, a lot of local companies helped out by allowing people opt into giving a fiver a week or something out of their wages. I could deal with 20 quid a month being taken from my wages if it meant saving my local club.

angel01 · 30-07-2009 6:23am

Yes, I do care, but not enough to do anything

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Was it really that bad or were you not able to enjoy it because you didn't have Andy Gray there to convince you it was a good game? I've heard the "quality" crap for years from a lot of people and most of the people that say it to me wouldn't know quality football if they were sat in the centre circle.... unless Andy was there with his 42 camera angles and ultra slow motion...

The difference in quality between your average Premiership footballer and your average Premier Division footballer is a few percent. Both are well capable of playing decent attractive football. The Premiership footballer will likely be slightly quicker and slightly stronger but this in no way detracts from the "quality" or entertainment of what's on offer.

I honestly think that if Irish Premiership fans were to abandon their TV's and go to live Premiership games week in, week out, they would see that watching live football in England is very similar to what you'll see in Ireland. A lot of Premiership games that I have seen in the last few years have been very dull affairs with neither teams playing well, but the pub will be packed with punters, while around the corner there might be a very entertaining encounter between 2 LOI teams. Maybe the LOI stadiums need Andy Grays over the PA and slow motion replays on the big screens...

Anyway, rant over. Gone way off topic.

When I went it was keeper kicks, aims for as far up the park as he can and then striker tries to score, nothing in between. No you are grand... I will stick with the premiership on the telly thanks.

haha if Andy Gray did have to do highlights of LOI, it would be a short show with nothing to show

:D

Andy Gray has nothing to do with why I enjoy watching English football

ccosgrave · 30-07-2009 6:48am

Yes, I do care, and think this is a good idea

I keep planning to go to Wexford Youths games, I just end up never getting around to it. Any time on a Friday that I remember, it turns out that it's an away match or they're not playing for some other reason. Hopefully I'll remember to go tomorrow night.

I don't think Youths are in as dire a financial situation as, for example, Cork, though.

cournioni · 30-07-2009 8:30am

mayordenis wrote: »

but see no connection to alot of the clubs around.
Many of them only being (at least seeming) exclusivly for certain sections of society. ie. certain clubs being very working class or something, feeling unwelcome if you try to support.

I agree with that completely. Closest LOI club to me is Dundalk and even though I go to their games, I have never felt any great connection to them as I am from outside the town (pardon the pun). Certainly not the same connection I would have if I was following the Cavan gaelic football team for example.

stovelid · 30-07-2009 8:58am

The quality of football stuff is dragging us a bit off-topic, although again, I can't see why hard-core fans of Ireland and the lion's share of the EPL are preaching the mantra of quality football above all.

Again, the bad management of the LOI is being used to completely explain the public avoidance of local football. It's not the full story, but it's a serious one.

Rovers will be a good case to watch. The club is currently running as a stable concern; the stadium is about to go to 7k capacity and the board are capable (as seen) of good marketing and community initiatives. Personally, I still think a breakthrough to the next level won't happen until the club is seen to compete with the clubs across water - exactly the kind of the scenario to be avoided as that has seen clubs go bust here.

Not that I want that necessarily - stability is all, but all this talk of getting houses in order (quite rightly) is still dodging the question of why from the 70s onwards, people here prefer 'quality' 'successful' 'winning' football over local product and all the fiscal homilies won't change that at the moment.

Anyway, at the end of the day, my support is non-negotiable. I was born in Manchester, lived there until I was 11: I support a team from Manchester; I've lived here for 27 years: I support a Dublin team (and if I wasn't in Dublin, it would be an Irish team); I support Ireland and then England in the internationals.

It's as simple as that. I didn't shop around for a team. My teams chose me by and large.

SectionF · 30-07-2009 9:22am

bohsman wrote: »

Why do people support the Irish national team? I really dont see any argument here that couldnt go for supporting England and not caring about Ireland (kinda like pre 1990 without the supporting England bit)

This is the crux of it. The consumer choice and football-as-business mantra, which has been expressed above, dictates that consumers must follow the 'highest quality' 'product' that gives them the best 'value'. Switching to England, therefore, is the only rational choice using most applicable criteria (i.e. excluding niche options), unless, of course, one wishes to choose Spain or Italy.

If you adhere to the creed that says business governs everything, the same process of freedom of choice and competition for loyalty applies to club football. ManU are a better prospect than Liverpool this year, therefore one should switch allegiances and kiss that brand instead. Clearly nonsense, because, at bottom, it's more than a business. There's something deeper going on.

Incidentally, Lucky Lloyd. You are one of the chief proponents in these parts of viewing the sport exclusively through a business lens. This is presented as some sort of hard-headed realism. Why then is UCD your LoI club of choice? As succinctly put by a poster on foot.ie: 'UCD are ... the cockroach of the LOI. They'll still be there after nuclear Armageddon.' A club operating under the umbrella of the biggest educational institution in the state is hardly an exemplar of free enterprise virtues.

whatawaster · 30-07-2009 9:41am

SectionF wrote: »

If you adhere to creed that business governs everything, the same process of freedom of choice and competition for loyalty applies to club football. ManU are a better prospect than Liverpool this year, therefore one should switch allegiances and kiss that brand instead. Clearly nonsense, because, at bottom, it's more than a business. There's something deeper going on.

Of course there’s something deeper going on. I don’t support Liverpool because they are a successful business (it’s arguable whether or not they even are), I support them because that’s who my brother supported so I used to see all their games as a child.
If you expose someone young to a team, and something about the experience excites them then they are quite likely to be passionate about that club as an adult.

Pro. F · 30-07-2009 10:27am

bohsman wrote: »

Why do people support the Irish national team?

I support the Irish national team because I'm Irish. I follow the EPL because that's where the vast majority of the best Irish players play. That wasn't a conscious reasoning when I started to watch English football, when I was about nine, but ultimately that was probably the biggest factor.

That's just a direct answer to your question. I'm not saying that there can be no place for Irish league football without the top Irish players.

SectionF · 30-07-2009 10:37am

whatawaster wrote: »

Of course there’s something deeper going on. I don’t support Liverpool because they are a successful business (it’s arguable whether or not they even are), I support them because that’s who my brother supported so I used to see all their games as a child.
If you expose someone young to a team, and something about the experience excites them then they are quite likely to be passionate about that club as an adult.

Ditto here with Leeds. They must be the most stupidly-run club in football history, but I'm not going to change allegiance because someone else has better business acumen. But that doesn't preclude actively supporting an LoI team, which brings us back to the original post...

A genuine question to non-LoI fans

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