A genuine question to non-LoI fans

Dublin_Gunner

Pro. F wrote: »

I support the Irish national team because I'm Irish. I follow the EPL because that's where the vast majority of the best Irish players play. That wasn't a conscious reasoning when I started to watch English football, when I was about nine, but ultimately that was probably the biggest factor.

That's just a direct answer to your question. I'm not saying that there can be no place for Irish league football without the top Irish players.

When I started following the english league, I chose Liverpool as my team of choice. I was young, and didn;t know all that much about it, but the reason I chose Liverpool?? The abundance of Irish players in the squad at the time (mid 80's). No other reason.

I think one major downfall of the LOI (and it has been stated before) is the inability to retain decent Irish players - I'm not talking the Roy Keanes / Denis Irwins of the world, but the more mediocre players - Cork City's selling of 2 players to lower league English clubs perfectly highlights this point.

Why weren't they sold to other LOI clubs? Or why didn't those LOI clubs come looking for them?

It would do the league good if they could try their best to hang on to the very decent players (they'll never hang on to the cream of the crop), but the players should be enticed to stay here, rather than go to 1st/2nd division clubs IMO.

The quality argument is moot - anyone who thinks that the general standard of LOI players is 'slightly less' than EPL is talking straight out of their backside - there is a massive gulf in quality. IF there wasn't - you'd see top quality players coming to play here FROM England, but you don't.

People will state its for the money, but the money is only there because of success, success comes with the best players, and the circle goes around and around.

The LOI jumped at the chance when teams started to turn Pro - and they were not in a position to be Pro teams - or at least not to paythe wages that they were.

Maybe a wage cap would / could potentially sort that issue out - but thats only a ripple in the pond. The re-structuring of the LOI, league management, club financial management, youth policy, youth academies, and major re-think on behalf of how the FAI do business all need to happen.

We used to have very decent sides years ago, and get decent crowds to games - but that was before the majority of lads started following the money over to England.

Something needs to be done. Whether its a reversion to an amateur / semi-pro model, to pay players on a percentage basis (based on clubs profits for the previous year) or not not, I dont know.

I for one was going to start a myfootballclub.co.uk model here, but pulled out (I had a lot of it set up, and web address bought etc) because of lack of interest. I did a survey to see how many people would be interested, and decided the money would never be there to purchase an LOI club, unless I charged a lot for membership, or got a rather large amount of members.

Would anyone here be interested in something like that?? I have put it on the back burner, but I could still go ahead with the model (I had been incontact with company directors, solicitors etc to discuss the viability of it) - it certainly wasn't a flash-in-the-pan idea, but I feel it was doomed to failure due to lack of interest form the average fan.

I found during my investigations, that a lot of people would 'like' the idea, but very few would be willing to commit.

Jaysoos, just realised I went a bit OT there, soz.

Either way, the entire league, and governing body needs to be restructured in order to facilitate a competant, competitive league here.

We certainly have the quality of players for a decent league - once we could hang on to them.

Draupnir

Yes, I do care, and think this is a good idea

An interesting question just popped into my head actually and I'll give my thoughts on it later, but here is the premise.

I personally am not as into football as I once was, my interest now is purely based on following the news (online, print media, television) and watching games/highlights on TV. If I miss a United game it isn't the end of the world to me and I often would miss one to do something else without really caring. That said, I still consider myself a United supporter as they are the club I have always supported and always will support. I guess this makes me a bit of a barstooler actually, but I don't mind that.

I don't go to LOI games anymore but used to go when I was more into football as a kid/teenager.

Secondly, I know guys who are so crazily into United that they have season tickets and fly over every week to watch United home and away. These guys are born and bred in Dublin and follow United for much the same reasons as I do (family connections, United and Dublin links).

Just wondering the opinion of LOI fans on both groups of people, who do you consider to be the worse example of non LOI fan?

The guy who isn't that committed to either league anymore for whatever reason or the guy who pumps loads of his time and money into an English club while driving past three/four LOI clubs on the way to the airport?

_blank_

Neither is a "terrible person", and I'm not going to demonise anyone here.

But if you are falling out of love with the game, for whatever reason, then nothing can be done about that.

If I wasn't such a Shels fan, I'd be laughing at the LoI, and wouldn't give it the time of day. When Shels looked like folding, I was thinking about what I'd do in future.

I wouldn't have turned into a Mad Tom type, that's for sure, I probably would have fallen by the wayside.

Pro. F

SectionF wrote: »

Ditto here with Leeds. They must be the most stupidly-run club in football history, but I'm not going to change allegiance because someone else has better business acumen. But that doesn't preclude actively supporting an LoI team, which brings us back to the original post...

I would like to put forward that the importance of the business model is a league wide thing, not just something that applies to individual clubs. The LOI seems to be massively unstable with teams going under, or close to going under, left right and centre. I would say that a small league like the LOI needs to be run in a very strict and well organised manner if it is to ever properly take off. Imagine someone thinking of starting to follow the LOI now.. How many of the clubs in the league are living beyond their means? And how many clubs have, in recent years, been on the brink? I'm open to correction but my understanding is that the numbers are a high proportion of the league. It's hardly an attractive prospect to a prospective supporter.

BTW i'm not saying that financial stabillity is the only problem the LOI faces.

I wonder will you discuss the topic with me or just dismiss my point as a know-it-all attitude.

stovelid

Draupnir wrote: »

Just wondering the opinion of LOI fans on both groups of people, who do you consider to be the worse example of non LOI fan?

I think we have to get away from deciding who is 'worse'.

There is a massive cultural attachment to English football in this country, and there is very little that will change that.

It would just be nice if more people didn't feel that they have to choose: that they could experience the camaraderie of local football and the better fare of the EPL/SPL/whatever (like in many other counties) and not constantly have to belittle one with the other.

SectionF

Pro. F wrote: »

I would like to put forward that the importance of the business model is a league wide thing, not just something that applies to individual clubs. The LOI seems to be massively unstable with teams going under, or close to going under, left right and centre. I would say that a small league like the LOI needs to be run in a very strict and well organised manner if it is to ever properly take off. Imagine someone thinking of starting to follow the LOI now.. How many of the clubs in the league are living beyond their means? And how many clubs have, in recent years, been on the brink? I'm open to correction but my understanding is that the numbers are a high proportion of the league. It's hardly an attractive prospect to a prospective supporter.

BTW i'm not saying that financial stabillity is the only problem the LOI faces.

I wonder will you discuss the topic with me or just dismiss my point as a know-it-all attitude.

I am not disputing any of that. What I am disputing is the theological statement that football is simply a business, and that therefore the weakest should go to the wall regardless of sporting or community value or local relevance.

I wholeheartedly agree that many clubs have been run beyond their means and with a view to short-term gain (which is very much part of the modern business culture that has seen global economic collapse). I think that much more rigorous and specific controls on expenditure should be put in place.


However, above all of that, the central, inescapable problem that faces football in Ireland is that people in Ireland don't support it. That is not something that is going to be fixed with a few pdfs by consultants or a neat marketing plan on a flip chart in Abbotstown or Dalymount. We need a sea change in the culture of sport, which is media-driven, which in turn is profit-driven.

If we try to establish LoI as a commercial competitor to EPL or to GAA, we are finished before we start. As I've said, football goes deeper than money, and we need to go deeper than that too. I think there are core values in play when someone from Dublin refers to a club from Manchester, Liverpool or Leeds as 'we'. Changing that ingrained mindset against the might of Sky and RTE in the long term is much more than a business challenge. In the short term, telling clubs who are a hair's breadth from the High Court that they should 'do more marketing' isn't terribly helpful.

Pro. F

SectionF wrote: »

I am not disputing any of that. What I am disputing is the theological statement that football is simply a business, and that therefore the weakest should go to the wall regardless of sporting or community value or local relevance.

I wholeheartedly agree that many clubs have been run beyond their means and with a view to short-term gain (which is very much part of the modern business culture that has seen global economic collapse). I think that much more rigorous and specific controls on expenditure should be put in place.

Cool, we are more or less in agreement on that then. (the important bits for this discussion anyway)

SectionF wrote: »

However, above all of that, the central, inescapable problem that faces football in Ireland is that people in Ireland don't support it. That is not something that is going to be fixed with a few pdfs by consultants or a neat marketing plan on a flip chart in Abbotstown or Dalymount. We need a sea change in the culture of sport, which is media-driven, which in turn is profit-driven.

If we try to establish LoI as a commercial competitor to EPL or to GAA, we are finished before we start. As I've said, football goes deeper than money, and we need to go deeper than that too. I think there are core values in play when someone from Dublin refers to a club from Manchester, Liverpool or Leeds as 'we'. Changing that ingrained mindset against the might of Sky and RTE in the long term is much more than a business challenge.

This is where we disagree. I think that the process needs to be the other way around. I'm of the opinion that if the people who are in charge of a well run small league (say one of the Scandinavian leagues mentioned earlier) took charge of the FAI that they would be able to achieve success with the league here. Probably not as much success in Ireland as is possible elsewhere, because of the competing sports here, but still far more success than anything the current FAI are capable of.

Looking for a mass change in public core values first is doomed to failure imo. The general public are not going to, all of a sudden, start following a shambolic, disorganised league, no matter what is said in the press. Once the league gets it's act together, as a whole, then no matter how small it is it will be able to start growing.
Imo until that happens any prospect of growth will only come from what are, in effect, individual acts of charity.

SectionF wrote: »

In the short term, telling clubs who are a hair's breadth from the High Court that they should 'do more marketing' isn't terribly helpful.

Yeah I agree with that. It's a much bigger picture we need to look at.

SectionF

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that if the people who are in charge of a well run small league (say one of the Scandinavian leagues mentioned earlier) took charge of the FAI that they would be able to achieve success with the league here. Probably not as much success in Ireland as is possible elsewhere, because of the competing sports here, but still far more success than anything the current FAI are capable of.

I agree with you on the FAI, and I have said as much, in converse, in an earlier post. The FAI does not take domestic football seriously. But what are the chances of the LoI being able to turn FAI priorities on their head? FAI is primarily oriented towards EPL and boys-in-green. Even as the national team plumbs deeper and deeper for players in the English system, there isn't a single LoI player in the squad announced today.

Scandinavia makes a good aspiration, but not a great comparison. It differs hugely from Ireland not just in terms of competing codes. Scandinavian countries have a much more cohesive sense of themselves, and they are much more aware of their distinct identity. Linked to their stronger sense of place and community, they also, significantly, have an entirely different economic and political system.

Looking for a mass change in public core values first is doomed to failure imo. The general public are not going to, all of a sudden, start following a shambolic, disorganised league, no matter what is said in the press. Once the league gets it's act together, as a whole, then no matter how small it is it will be able to start growing.
Imo until that happens any prospect of growth will only come from what are, in effect, individual acts of charity.

I think it is a gradual process. The league getting its act together in my mind means getting fans, sponsors and the media, to support the top level of the sport in their own country. Until that happens, it will always be shambolic, because it will always be frantically chasing mere survival. Sure, there are things that should be tightened up, but most of the plainly obvious shortcomings come down not to some freakish absence of intelligence or insight but to sheer lack of resources.

Part of the process is enabled by digital media and places like boards.ie, as we now no longer need to take as given the preferences of sports editors and reporters who like nothing better than a jolly to a Premiership game. That's why we're having this discussion, which challenges top-down, received assumptions -- something which would not have been possible or at best would have been buried before.

Edit: One move that would accelerate improvement in my opinion is an all-Ireland league, the last proposal for which was supported by major clubs but scuttled by the FAI and IFA.

elshambo

SectionF wrote: »

Edit: One move that would accelerate improvement in my opinion is an all-Ireland league, the last proposal for which was supported by major clubs but scuttled by the FAI and IFA.

?


The last proposal was moronic, that was the major problem with it!

LuckyLloyd

SectionF wrote: »

Incidentally, Lucky Lloyd. You are one of the chief proponents in these parts of viewing the sport exclusively through a business lens. This is presented as some sort of hard-headed realism. Why then is UCD your LoI club of choice? As succinctly put by a poster on foot.ie: 'UCD are ... the cockroach of the LOI. They'll still be there after nuclear Armageddon.' A club operating under the umbrella of the biggest educational institution in the state is hardly an exemplar of free enterprise virtues.

I attended UCD, I represented it in a couple of different sports at inter - varsity / national level. When I went there I started going to LOI games regularly.

Now, why is it a bad thing that UCD will always have a soccer team in some form or another? The sports department in UCD does an excellent job on the whole of getting in full-time or part-time students who play amateur / semi pro sport (in a extremely wide range of disciplines) to a high level and getting them to hold their own at the highest levels nationally. UCD generally go after a certain type of player (high achiever at schoolboy level who isn't good enough to play pro overseas) and offer what they have to offer, namely the shot at some education. The club has poor attendances, virtually no revenue in terms of merchandising or advertising, so it doesn't pay out big wages. It offers what it can to players, works hard at identifying potential targets at underage level, and gets on with it as best it can.

The principle behind it matches what I talk about here. Cut your cloth to fit your budget. UCD will always aim to have a soccer team that competes at the highest level available to it, but it is never going to stretch itself financially in doing so. Survive, keep in the game, aim to be the best you can be within realistic financial parameters. If every club in the LOI had the same attitude, we wouldn't have stories like Cork, Boh's, Shels, etc.

The above quote on foot.ie seems to sneer at UCD's mindset, seems to be jealous of the sustainability of their model. Why?

SectionF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I attended UCD, I represented it in a couple of different sports at inter - varsity / national level. When I went there I started going to LOI games regularly.

Now, why is it a bad thing that UCD will always have a soccer team in some form or another? The sports department in UCD does an excellent job on the whole of getting in full-time or part-time students who play amateur / semi pro sport (in a extremely wide range of disciplines) to a high level and getting them to hold their own at the highest levels nationally. UCD generally go after a certain type of player (high achiever at schoolboy level who isn't good enough to play pro overseas) and offer what they have to offer, namely the shot at some education. The club has poor attendances, virtually no revenue in terms of merchandising or advertising, so it doesn't pay out big wages. It offers what it can to players, works hard at identifying potential targets at underage level, and gets on with it as best it can.

The principle behind it matches what I talk about here. Cut your cloth to fit your budget. UCD will always aim to have a soccer team that competes at the highest level available to it, but it is never going to stretch itself financially in doing so. Survive, keep in the game, aim to be the best you can be within realistic financial parameters. If every club in the LOI had the same attitude, we wouldn't have stories like Cork, Boh's, Shels, etc.

The above quote on foot.ie seems to sneer at UCD's mindset, seems to be jealous of the sustainability of their model. Why?

I went to UCD too, and I think it is a fine and wonderful thing that colleges should have football clubs, and long may that continue.
But UCD does not fit your neatly reductionist view that clubs are businesses. It is heavily favoured, even if indirectly, by its cushioned embedding in the wider institution. That is why it is difficult to take seriously your lecturing on business standards.
I think UCD are kind of ok, though having a college team in a national league does give the league a Mickey Mouse flavour, and I was happy to see them relegated. (I also am happy not to have to go to games at a club with more officials than fans and zero atmosphere).
Rather than simply sneering, the cockroach quote encapsulates that objection on foot.ie, where UCD folk are almost always first in the queue to dispense financial wisdom.

Aidric

whatawaster wrote: »

There is an element of chicken and egg about it of course. But there are ways around it.
If clubs like Drogheda had invested all that money in youth facilities and coaching then you’d see players with better technique and skills which would make the football much more watchable.

Going to matches to boost clubs coffers in the short term will really do nothing apart from give a few bob to the tax man or the bank.

I'd agree with this sentiment. If the proper investment was made at youths level in terms of time and good coaching in possession football then invariably the standard would rise.
It shouldn't have to come down to a club having to spend big sums on a few marquee players at a huge risk to try and improve their situation.

Pro. F

SectionF wrote: »

I agree with you on the FAI, and I have said as much, in converse, in an earlier post. The FAI does not take domestic football seriously. But what are the chances of the LoI being able to turn FAI priorities on their head?

I don't know what the chances are that domestic league football can become well organised in Ireland. But that reform is a prerequisite of success imo. And stating that it can't happen because of lack of resources, or because we don't have the same sense of self as Scandinavian countries, or whatever, are just pathetic excuses tbh. The exceptance of mediocraty in Ireland is the biggest obstacle to Irish league football imo. The organisation of Irish league football is mediocre. That should not be excepted or excused in any way. Imo if it is reformed, only then will the league be able to grow.

SectionF wrote: »

Part of the process is enabled by digital media and places like boards.ie, as we now no longer need to take as given the preferences of sports editors and reporters who like nothing better than a jolly to a Premiership game. That's why we're having this discussion, which challenges top-down, received assumptions -- something which would not have been possible or at best would have been buried before.

But you are just trying to replace what you see as a top-down, recieved assumption - that we'd all be better off only following foreign domestic football - with your own assumption - that the LOI, in it's current state, is worthy of support and will improve given that support.

I have never been impressed with charity which is not backed up by structural reform - it is a short-termist mentality that usually fails. Asking people to support the LOI in it's current state is exactly that imo.

LuckyLloyd

SectionF wrote: »

I went to UCD too, and I think it is a fine and wonderful thing that colleges should have football clubs, and long may that continue.
But UCD does not fit your neatly reductionist view that clubs are businesses. It is heavily favoured, even if indirectly, by its cushioned embedding in the wider institution. That is why it is difficult to take seriously your lecturing on business standards.
I think UCD are kind of ok, though having a college team in a national league does give the league a Mickey Mouse flavour, and I was happy to see them relegated. (I also am happy not to have to go to games at a club with more officials than fans and zero atmosphere).
Rather than simply sneering, the cockroach quote encapsulates that objection on foot.ie, where UCD folk are almost always first in the queue to dispense financial wisdom.

I personally think that Boh's winning the league with players it can't afford and facing the threat of busto half way through the following season is more mickey mouse than UCD participating on merit, but maybe that's just me.

stovelid

Pro. F wrote: »

I have never been impressed with charity which is not backed up by structural reform - it is a short-termist mentality that usually fails. Asking people to support the LOI in it's current state is exactly that imo.

And the allure of the game cross-channel has nothing to do with this at all?

Hand on heart (and this isn't a challenge): do you think that the majority of people like yourself support a teams like Manchester United (and not a LOI team) purely as a method of making a critique about the management of the League of Ireland?

If it's simply a case of the incompetence of Irish clubs (which I am equally aghast at), why not a swell in support for well-run clubs in the lower divisions in England?

And the chronic, near-comic, bungling of the FAI - often on a world stage - doesn't seem to put people off the national team?

elshambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I personally think that Boh's winning the league with players it can't afford and facing the threat of busto half way through the following season is more mickey mouse than UCD participating on merit, but maybe that's just me.

Would agree 100%

EXCEPT

ManU Liverpool Real Madrid etc etc, if the banks had the balls would be in same/worse position as Bohs Cork

Bohs should have league stripped if they win it and dont fit criteria
(me having a bet on Shams a couple of weeks ago does not affect my thoughts on this:P:rolleyes:)

Ive no particular problem with UCD(apart from the travelling support are generally middle class muppets who sneer at anyone who's daddy isnt a banker(:rolleyes:) and generally show a lack of knowledge of football) College college rarara:p
+ive only made the mistake of going to a UCD home game once (awful place)

Problem is as sectionF said
UCD do not fit YOUR example of what a LOI club should be

whatawaster

I’ve nothing against UCD at all, and I’ve no doubt they are run better than 99% of LOI clubs out there.
But if, and it’s a big if, there was ever a major reform of the league I wouldn’t like to see them or other institutions like them participating directly.

I’d like to see each club have a link with a major University/College. So for example the the four big Dublin clubs – Shels, Bohs, Pats and Rovers could be involved with one of UCD, DCU, DIT or TCD. The clubs could sponsor their younger players through College. Fees, accommodation and subsidies would cost a fraction of what clubs are playing mediocre pro’s at the moment. Perhaps the colleges can provide use of training or other facilities and be flexible with time off for training/matches. Obviously the clubs would have to give something back – not sure what at the moment I’m just thinking out loud to be honest.
I doubt there are many LOI clubs without a suitable institution within a reasonable distance.

Bottom line is, whatever is done, and the above is just one idea, clubs need to stop wasting their revenues on paying inflated wages to crap players. More money on youth development, improving facilities (if possible) and hiring better coaches. Things like this will reap long-term benefits, though there might be difficulties in the short term.

I also definitely think there should be a rule whereby a club has to field a certain number of U-21 or locally trained players or something along those lines. 3 per team? 5 per team? I don’t know. Something.

Pro. F

stovelid wrote: »

And the allure of the game cross-channel has nothing to do with this at all?

The allure of the game in England has nothing to do with my opinion that the FAI and the LOI need to be reformed. And it has nothing to do with my opinion that charity without structural reform rarely works.

I'm not saying that the attraction of the English game won't limit the potential for success of a league in Ireland. I'm saying that it's not an excuse for the shambles that is here now.

stovelid wrote: »

Hand on heart (and this isn't a challenge): do you think that the majority of people like yourself support a teams like Manchester United (and not a LOI team) purely as a method of making a critique about the management of the League of Ireland?

No, of course not. It's not a conscious criticism of the LOI. It's an unconscious criticism because the LOI doesn't offer a viable alternative to watching foreign domestic football. It is a dysfunctional league. People aren't going to be attracted to the league while it's in its current state.

stovelid wrote: »

If it's simply a case of the incompetence of Irish clubs (which I am equally aghast at), why not a swell in support for well-run clubs in the lower divisions in England?

Because it is not important simply how well run the clubs are, it is more important how well run the league is, as a whole. The league in England is run relatively well when compared to Ireland, so supporting a club there makes sense. People choose their clubs, for their own personal reasons, but my point is that they are actually giving their support (maybe unknowingly) to the league first. I would say that most people need to be attracted to a league first and then they will start to support a club actively.

Sure there are big, important criticisms of the league in England but it isn't nearly as bad as the Irish league. At the moment, in the LOI, clubs are regularly running themselves into the ground (ie nearly going out of existence) for short term success.

Yes there are several clubs in the LOI doing good work and behaving sensibly but imo the problem needs to be looked at from an association wide perspective. IMO every time a big club goes to the brink in order to achieve short term success the whole league suffers in the public perception, because the very nature of the competition is compromised.

stovelid wrote: »

And the chronic, near-comic, bungling of the FAI - often on a world stage - doesn't seem to put people off the national team?

Because the competitions that the national team takes part in - world cup, European championship - are relatively well run.

That's the main point I've been making in this thread. IMO, when it comes to attracting people to a sporting competition the organisation and rules that govern how clubs (or national teams) compete and run themselves off the pitch are as important as the rules that govern how they play on it.

SectionF

Pro. F wrote: »

I have never been impressed with charity which is not backed up by structural reform - it is a short-termist mentality that usually fails. Asking people to support the LOI in it's current state is exactly that imo.

You mentioned earlier that you were concerned that constructive criticism was in danger of being dismissed as know-it-all posturing. Well, I'm afraid that if you think that you are indulging in charity to support Irish football, and you purport to care about football, then that is rather patronising. And your comments about not supporting mediocrity are straight out of the Eamon Dunphy soundbite box. Believe me, it's not mediocrity you are seeing when you look at LoI in 2009: it is rock bottom desperation of a game in crisis.

A football supporter in, say, Plymouth, who lives in Plymouth and goes to Plymouth on a Saturday to pay in and watch a match isn't engaged in an act of charity. He's supporting his football team, and he won't expect someone to feel they owe him something.

Unless he is one of those fickle aficionados who likes to mix his Chelsea with his Barca as the mood or, more likely, occasion, fits, he will stick by Plymouth. If Plymouth drop a league, he may even support them more.

Pro. F

SectionF wrote: »

You mentioned earlier that you were concerned that constructive criticism was in danger of being dismissed as know-it-all posturing.

My first post on this thread, which had the same points as you are now addressing, was dismissed as a know-it-all attitude by DSB in a post that you thanked, so I was right to be concerned.

SectionF wrote: »

Well, I'm afraid that if you think that you are indulging in charity to support Irish football, and you purport to care about football, then that is rather patronising.

I believe that spending money to financially support a club in a badly run league that cannot provide sustainable, fair competition (and therefore long term entertainment) is simply an act of charity and it has no chance of attracting a large amount of fans. The responsibility is on the clubs and their league organisation to create a worthwhile competition that will attract new fans. The LOI is not currently a worthwhile competition imo.

SectionF wrote: »

And your comments about not supporting mediocrity are straight out of the Eamon Dunphy soundbite box. Believe me, it's not mediocrity you are seeing when you look at LoI in 2009: it is rock bottom desperation of a game in crisis.

We simply disagree on this. I believe that the organisation of club football in Ireland is mediocre and is not excused by a lack of funds or interest but is actually a misuse of the funds and interest - small though they are - that are available. You believe otherwise. We might or might not want to discuss that but I'm not going to trade pointless and meaningless insults with you.

SectionF wrote: »

A football supporter in, say, Plymouth, who lives in Plymouth and goes to Plymouth on a Saturday to pay in and watch a match isn't engaged in an act of charity. He's supporting his football team, and he won't expect someone to feel they owe him something.

Unless he is one of those fickle aficionados who likes to mix his Chelsea with his Barca as the mood or, more likely, occasion, fits, he will stick by Plymouth. If Plymouth drop a league, he may even support them more.

It's not about anybody owing anything to supporters. A league that is unstable and badly organised will always struggle to attract fans. Any club that is playing in a league structure that is so badly organised as to be unsustainable, with its competition compromised will ultimately find itself relying on charity because it won't be able to attract enough fans with actual entertainment. And I'm not talking about simply on pitch entertainment and presentation etc., I'm talking about an actual competition that makes sense. IMO The LOI is simply wasting the resources that are available by having a competition that is completely compromised. It is compromised by such things as clubs being able to ruin themselves for short term success, lack of decent youth development and others.

joe123

I'm not trying to start a LoI -vs- EPL debate here, god knows we have enough of those.

A simple question to those Irish football fans, who don't support a LoI team.

Do you care that Cork City are going out of existence?

Yes

Another few.

Do you care that other clubs with as much history as the team which you do actually support are going to the wall?

Yes

If you do care, do you care enough to do anything about it?

Something like make an undertaking to give up an hour and a half on a Friday night for the rest of the LoI season and go to the club nearest you?

I don't care about the "standard" or "the state of the kip", they are non-issues here.

Ah here lies the problem. You see your looking at it from a persepective that your local club is only down the road. My local club in this case Galway is over an hour away. Now seeing as I wouldnt be home from work untill half 6 covered in work **** its not a case of just popping down the road or 20 minutes away.

And alot of rural Ireland is like this. Not everyone in Ireland has a local LOI club. I know I dont.

DSB

joe123 wrote: »

Yes



Yes



Ah here lies the problem. You see your looking at it from a persepective that your local club is only down the road. My local club in this case Galway is over an hour away. Now seeing as I wouldnt be home from work untill half 6 covered in work **** its not a case of just popping down the road or 20 minutes away.

And alot of rural Ireland is like this. Not everyone in Ireland has a local LOI club. I know I dont.

Its only once every 2 weeks though, assuming you're referring to going to every home game. Hardly that bad a journey, considering whatever English club you support is without doubt longer, and much more expensive to travel to, ya know?

DSB

Its actually disturbing that 30% of socalled football fans, couldn't care less about clubs from their national league going to the wall. I was expecting the 'I care but not enough to do about it' to win by a mile.

elshambo

could be worse

could be scottish football

3hn2givr7mx1sc

My two nearest teams would be Kilkenny City and Kildares, I hate both of those counties with a passion, so I have chosen to support Shamrock Rovers, I went to Tallaght to see the Galacticos of Madrid but I was smitten by the Tallaghcticos!:D

SectionF

Paisley Fit Sledgehammer wrote: »

My two nearest teams would be Kilkenny City and Kildares, I hate both of those counties with a passion, so I have chosen to support Shamrock Rovers, I went to Tallaght to see the Galacticos of Madrid but I was smitten by the Tallaghcticos!:D

Bandwagoner.

bohsman

Just another random question to throw out there.

If its all about the quality of football how does Bohs reserves v Liverpool reserves sell out in a day and also if your team did a Leeds/Newcastle/Wimbledon at what level will you stop supporting them/pick a new team? Not having a go, Im sure Id go to less Bohs games if they dropped a division or 2 and were still being badly run.

Mr.Nice Guy

Yes, I do care, and think this is a good idea

I feel bad for Cork City and the fans who support the club. If it happened to my local side would I care? Yes. Would I go to support the side? Probably not.

It seems to me the reasons for the general apathy towards the domestic game are based mainly on three factors...

1) The perception that the standard of players on show are inferior to those plying their trade in England (including the Irish lads over there).

2) The perception that the league and its clubs are run poorly.

3) A failure to generate interest in the league from the young at an early age.

Now then, possible solutions to the above problems?

1) Someone mentioned FIFA stopping players moving abroad from the place of their birth until the age of 21. I don't think that's a bad idea. It would at least allow Ireland's star players to ply their trade at home and allow Irish fans to witness the brightest prospects right on their own doorstep. I think this is an idea that has merit.

2) Implement tighter regulations for clubs and ensure they are run better. Clubs ought to stop spending money that they don't have.

3) Try to get youngsters at school level involved in their local sides, say at ages 6 and over. Try to gain more exposure for clubs on TV and so on. This is around the age I started supporting Man Utd and I stuck with them from that point. On this particular point, I remember being nine years old when Dublin won the All-Ireland and a few of the players came by the local school. I knew a good few of the Dublin player's names as a result of things like this and this was despite me not being a big GAA fan. Encourage kids to get to know their local team and their players. Bring a bit of community spirit into the domestic game.

These are just ideas off the top of my head. I'm sure they'll be shot down but there you go.

Personally speaking I watch football because it's my favourite sport. I'm not interested in watching football for sentimental reasons. I think this is the way a lot of fans feel and I also think a lot of LOI fans just can't or won't accept this. Look, sentiment doesn't work in this country. This is a country with its national language on its knees. I'm sure most of us would hate to see it disappear and wish it was in a better state but are we out in our spare time learning as Gaeilge to turn things around? Are we f*ck. (Yes I'm sure a few of you spend your summer in the Gaeltacht and good luck to you)

The reality is most people want something from their time. Why learn a language that I'm not going to use? Why watch a match that I'm not going to like? If there's a feeling that the quality isn't there at LOI games then people just aren't interested. These are the hard facts and why the crowds sell out when Madrid or Liverpool (even reserves) are in town. As I said above, sentiment just doesn't work in this country. Give the people something worth watching and things might be different.

There are plenty of things wrong with the domestic game in this country and it disappoints me that it's the fans who don't go to games that get a lot of the flak. Listen, the game in this country is in a shambolic state. We all know it. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing this out. There needs to be massive changes from top to bottom. From FIFA to the FAI, to the grassroots level. Bashing the fans for not going to games is a bit like a TV producer bashing the audience for not watching his TV show. Maybe there's a reason the audience aren't watching. The customer is always right.

stovelid

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm not saying that the attraction of the English game won't limit the potential for success of a league in Ireland. I'm saying that it's not an excuse for the shambles that is here now.

I agree with nearly everything single criticism made in this thread of the league, most of the clubs and the FAI.

The fact remains that a lot of the over-spending lunacy is a stupid response to a lack of interest in the local game as judged against bigger leagues.

There seems to be an ossifying of the position in this thread that the facilities and mismanagement are the sole reason for low attendances - conveniently so.

For example, if all the Dubin clubs were debt-free and playing in upgraded facilities, you would still be facing an uphill battle to convincing the Irish public that clubs that don't have 'top-level' players or that are not in the Champions League group stages are 'real teams'.

This is not whining.

That said, none of my statements should be taken as me trying to deny that:

a) the clubs, league and FAI seriously need to get their houses in order b) making clubs/grounds into attractive facilities would not attract more support c)that all supporters should be actively involved in doing this, preferably as members or trying to get their clubs to become members clubs d) Irish clubs must park the do-well-in-Europe mantra (for decades if necessary) and concentrate and building local, stable structures and building toward this goal gradually

DSB wrote: »

Its actually disturbing that 30% of socalled football fans, couldn't care less about clubs from their national league going to the wall. I was expecting the 'I care but not enough to do about it' to win by a mile.

I think the League disappearing would be handy for some. If you meet a load of English lads in Santa Ponza, there wouldn't have to be that embarrassing pregnant silence when you say I'm an x supporter in a Irish accent. You can just say unfortunately we don't have a league.

Dublin_Gunner

bohsman wrote: »

Just another random question to throw out there.

If its all about the quality of football how does Bohs reserves v Liverpool reserves sell out in a day

Because people who wouldn;t ever usually get to see the chance to see Liverpool play, can. Simples. It has little or nothing to do with Bohs, or what standard the match might be played at.

You can be sure that even a Liverpool reserve side will have some first 11 players when coming over for a friendly.

SectionF

Anyway, here's what we're all talking about.

LuckyLloyd

elshambo wrote: »

Would agree 100%

EXCEPT

ManU Liverpool Real Madrid etc etc, if the banks had the balls would be in same/worse position as Bohs Cork

Bohs should have league stripped if they win it and dont fit criteria
(me having a bet on Shams a couple of weeks ago does not affect my thoughts on this:P:rolleyes:)

Well no, that isn't entirely true in the case of Liverpool and Man Utd. They haven't defaulted on financial responsibilities as of yet, have incredibly significant revenue streams (in the current footballing climate) and the potential to raise lots of money if they required a fire-sale of all asset's. It's not a lack of "balls" that leaves them still able to find credit / refinance existing liabilities; it's the very real possibility that those who loan them money will end up in profit from doing so over the long haul.

The likes of Man Utd and Liverpool have financial prospects not too dissimilar to that of the Irish exchequer at present. Their situation is not rock solid, there is a >0% percentage chance of debt default, and it wouldn't take a whole lot of adverse changes in their context to sink them entirely. But right now, the likelihood is that they will continue to exist in twenty years time.

The likes of Cork are in very different waters, as their revenue streams and asset's are meagre in comparison to their financial obligations, and debt / tax default has become a distinct possibility.

elshambo wrote: »

Ive no particular problem with UCD(apart from the travelling support are generally middle class muppets who sneer at anyone who's daddy isnt a banker(:rolleyes:) and generally show a lack of knowledge of football) College college rarara:p
+ive only made the mistake of going to a UCD home game once (awful place)

wat

And the Belfield Bowl and the surrounding environs of Clonskeagh may be many things, but "awful" they are not!

elshambo wrote: »

Problem is as sectionF said
UCD do not fit YOUR example of what a LOI club should be

It does actually. Get away from the context of the club, and think instead about how they organize themselves and the operating blueprint they follow:

- the biggest wages goes to the coaching staff, not the players. Get the best coaches you can;
- concentration on bringing in young Irish players with a good attitude and developing strong links with youth clubs in the local area (like Merrion);
- have a proper system of talent progression in place, so that players can get games and training time away from the first team and be integrated until they are ready to contribute (U20's winning the league last year and stepping up this year);
- If paying players, keep contracts small and short so that if the worst happens (relegation, etc) you can start the following season afresh and have the financial flexibility to start again without being badly wounded;

Developing young and available Irish players, working with amateur / semi pro players, keeping wages small, leaving yourself flexibility with contracts.

Is not what I've been "preaching"? Stability above all else.

whatawaster wrote: »

I’ve nothing against UCD at all, and I’ve no doubt they are run better than 99% of LOI clubs out there.
But if, and it’s a big if, there was ever a major reform of the league I wouldn’t like to see them or other institutions like them participating directly.

I’d like to see each club have a link with a major University/College. So for example the the four big Dublin clubs – Shels, Bohs, Pats and Rovers could be involved with one of UCD, DCU, DIT or TCD. The clubs could sponsor their younger players through College. Fees, accommodation and subsidies would cost a fraction of what clubs are playing mediocre pro’s at the moment. Perhaps the colleges can provide use of training or other facilities and be flexible with time off for training/matches. Obviously the clubs would have to give something back – not sure what at the moment I’m just thinking out loud to be honest.
I doubt there are many LOI clubs without a suitable institution within a reasonable distance.

Couldn't disagree with this more strongly. UCD are not labouring at the bottom of the 1st Division. They are former winners of the FAI cup, have been in the league for over 30 years now, and have maintained themselves as a solid middle ranking club for a long time now (too good for the 1st Divison / just about holding their own at Premiership level / capable of cup runs). This season they are making a very good fist of getting promotion despite losing their manager and (almost) entire 1st team squad in the off season. Like it or lump it, they are one of the twenty best football clubs in the country. Any reformation that wouldn't include them would be a mockery from the get go.

Moreover, virtually all educational institutions have sports departments and football teams. UCD leads the way because of a greater commitment to sports in terms of facilities and planning. It isn't just football where they have broken away in a big way from their peers. It is in their GAA teams being able to challenge for club championships nationally; their hockey teams being able to challenge for Irish Senior Cups; their Rugby team being a fixture at the highest division of club rugby in Ireland; their athletics program being light-years ahead of everywhere else. Lumping UCD in with everyone else as suggested above is incorrect. They are just good at what they do. And have put the work in to be able to compete nationally in a range of sports. And they shouldn't be punished for that.

elshambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And the Belfield Bowl and the surrounding environs of Clonskeagh may be many things, but "awful" they are not!

get the rec'd friday night bus to belifeld, lashing rain(clubs fault), drops you miles from stadium and when you get there 20 home fans in an empty stadium shouting "college college rarara"

awful place:D

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It does actually. Get away from the context of the club, and think instead about how they organize themselves and the operating blueprint they follow:

No; because its the context of the club is the bit that doesnt fit your model

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- the biggest wages goes to the coaching staff, not the players. Get the best coaches you can;
- concentration on bringing in young Irish players with a good attitude and developing strong links with youth clubs in the local area (like Merrion);
- have a proper system of talent progression in place, so that players can get games and training time away from the first team and be integrated until they are ready to contribute (U20's winning the league last year and stepping up this year);
- If paying players, keep contracts small and short so that if the worst happens (relegation, etc) you can start the following season afresh and have the financial flexibility to start again without being badly wounded;

Developing young and available Irish players, working with amateur / semi pro players, keeping wages small, leaving yourself flexibility with contracts.

Is not what I've been "preaching"? Stability above all else.

the above is why i like UCD and am glad they exist
(they fit MY model:rolleyes:)
I even know one or two who have played for them

its just the rest that drags them down to

"Ive no particular problem with UCD"

:cool:

SectionF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well no, that isn't entirely true in the case of Liverpool and Man Utd. They haven't defaulted on financial responsibilities as of yet, have incredibly significant revenue streams (in the current footballing climate) and the potential to raise lots of money if they required a fire-sale of all asset's.

Here's how Liverpool's finances have been going - ... years of debt

Liverpool supporters have launched proposals to buy the club outright, on the day that its north American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, are due to renew their £350m loans with Royal Bank of Scotland and Wachovia. Almost £200m of that was borrowed by Hicks and Gillett to buy the club, having said they were not "doing a Glazers" and loading the club with paying the interest and costs of their own takeover. They have since failed to raise the money to build Liverpool the planned new 60,000 or 70,000-seat stadium on Stanley Park, which was the sole reason the club was sold to the pair in the first place.

Moreover, virtually all educational institutions have sports departments and football teams. UCD leads the way because of a greater commitment to sports in terms of facilities and planning.

So the institution is bankrolling the club. Surely this is the fundamental truth that sustains UCD. All this stuff about prudence and cutting one's cloth flows from that. This is hardly a fit for clubs in the outside world, such as Cork City, unless you are suggesting that we back all clubs into educational institutions and have ourselves a college league.

That_Guy

So did they pay off their debt or whatever it was?

SectionF

That_Guy wrote: »

So did they pay off their debt or whatever it was?

They renewed their debt (or the fans' debt).

So the likelihood is that Hicks and Gillett will secure their lending, keep hold of the club, from which they charge for their expenses, and expect to make a good profit when they sell it on. The banks will make plentiful money too "for many years to come," from a honeypot football club in a spartan economic climate.

And the fans, who feel irreparably betrayed by the owners - and who believe that football is more precious than a mere business, an emotional attachment to core ideals they summarise as the Spirit of Shankly - get to pay for it all.

LuckyLloyd

SectionF wrote: »

Here's how Liverpool's finances have been going - ... years of debt

Liverpool supporters have launched proposals to buy the club outright, on the day that its north American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, are due to renew their £350m loans with Royal Bank of Scotland and Wachovia. Almost £200m of that was borrowed by Hicks and Gillett to buy the club, having said they were not "doing a Glazers" and loading the club with paying the interest and costs of their own takeover. They have since failed to raise the money to build Liverpool the planned new 60,000 or 70,000-seat stadium on Stanley Park, which was the sole reason the club was sold to the pair in the first place.

Yes, years of debt. But the debt is serviced / refinanced on time, everytime. And the lending institutions expect to profit off the endeavour.

SectionF wrote: »

So the institution is bankrolling the club. Surely this is the fundamental truth that sustains UCD. All this stuff about prudence and cutting one's cloth flows from that. This is hardly a fit for clubs in the outside world, such as Cork City, unless you are suggesting that we back all clubs into educational institutions and have ourselves a college league.

Answer me this:

If Cork City FC operated off expenditure limits in line with UCD's budget would they be about to cease existing this week?

SectionF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Answer me this:

If Cork City FC operated off expenditure limits in line with UCD's budget would they be about to cease existing this week?

In general terms, perhaps not. They might be able to put out a shoestring team, but that might be matched by attendances of 20 home supporters. (And the UCD model of fielding young hopefuls and improvers can only work for one or two clubs. You need somewhere to improve to.)

But in order to discuss this meaningfully, I would need to see UCD's budgeted and actual accounts. Can you direct me to where they are published?

pd101

Des wrote: »

Something like make an undertaking to give up an hour and a half on a Friday night for the rest of the LoI season and go to the club nearest you?

Its a lot more than an hour and a half for some people. I live in Wicklow but its 2 and a half hour round trip for me to get to a game in Bray, plus the hour and a half for the match.

Pro. F

stovelid wrote: »

I agree with nearly everything single criticism made in this thread of the league, most of the clubs and the FAI.

The fact remains that a lot of the over-spending lunacy is a stupid response to a lack of interest in the local game as judged against bigger leagues.

And that stupidity is unacceptable. Furthermore, imo, that stupidity is the biggest obstical to the success of domestic football in Ireland. There is enough interest already present in domestic football to run a stable league in Ireland. The fact that the FAI are failing to run a stable league is an indictment of their organisational skills and is no way excused by the reletively low level of public interest in the league. The problem will not go away if the number of fans going to games increases - clubs will just continue to spend too much money on players' wages in order to achieve short term success and therefore distort and invalidate the league and more importantly they will continue to get away with it.

People saying "please come and support this badly organised league, it will improve if you do" or "you should support this badly organised league because you're Irish and also if you do it will improve" are talking absurd nonsense in my view. The league is failing miserably and it is nobodies fault but the FAI. I am not suggesting a boycot of the LOI I am suggesting reform of the FAI or more particularly reform of how the FAI runs domestic football in Ireland.

There seems to be an ossifying of the position in this thread that the facilities and mismanagement are the sole reason for low attendances - conveniently so.

For example, if all the Dubin clubs were debt-free and playing in upgraded facilities, you would still be facing an uphill battle to convincing the Irish public that clubs that don't have 'top-level' players or that are not in the Champions League group stages are 'real teams'.

I believe that if the league was well run and stable that it would grow slowly but surely until it reached the point of being a reasonably good and successful, small league.
You and others disagree with me. You haven't convinced me otherwise and I haven't convinced you. I can't see this going any further so I doubt I'll be posting in this thread any more.

Slash/ED

bohsman wrote: »

Just another random question to throw out there.

If its all about the quality of football how does Bohs reserves v Liverpool reserves sell out in a day and also if your team did a Leeds/Newcastle/Wimbledon at what level will you stop supporting them/pick a new team? Not having a go, Im sure Id go to less Bohs games if they dropped a division or 2 and were still being badly run.

Because, of course, standard has nothing to do with it.

If standard had anything to do with it, people wouldn't watch mid table premiership teams play meaningless matches. The standard is usually poor, and the games quite dull. If standard was anything to do with it nobody'd support Celtic, they're an awful team in an even worse league that have lost their last two European encounters with Irish sides (The league that is, not Celtic). People follow the SPL because they love the champagne football, big names and brilliant standard? My arse...The premiership was huge here in the early 90s when it was a poor cousin to Europes big leagues, it was still the most popular league, yet didn't have the best standard of players...

Beyond that, and many will disagree here, but GAA football can sell out big stadiums for big matches. Standard wise, the technique of these players is awful, they to me seem to lack even very basic skills for the most part. I'm not slagging GAA here, merely making the point that it's followed for reasons beyond the standard and quality of the players playing it.

Standard has nothing to do with it, and it's not even close.

dyl10

At the end of the day, clubs in our league should operate within their means in the long term.

It's not like many of the leagues players would decide to go to England if their wages were cut, most of them are here because it didn't work out for them over there and very few of them now, would turn down a chance at playing league 1 football or above when having to choose between the here and there.

The big suffering we'd have if finances were managed correctly, is in the loss of full-time clubs and thus an end to the great European nights we've had over the years.

jasonb

I first heard about Cork City's situation a few days ago and to be honest it was just another Sports News story to me.

Then I saw this thread and read through it, and I realised that it did mean something more than that to me. After reading the posts ( and keeping Des's original questions in mind ) I find myself thinking I would like to do something, but I don't know if the motivation is there.

I've supported Liverpool for 30 years now, a family friend got me hooked on them. That connection I have with Liverpool means I'm a fan now whether they're doing well ( both on or off the pitch ) or not. Their quality of football doesn't make me more or less of a fan, it just makes me a happy or sad fan.

So, my problem with motivation is how do I get a connection with a LOI club, something that would make me want to go every week / second week? I just find the idea of 'choosing' a club and 'supporting them' based on something arbitrary like 'they're nearby' very practical or cold maybe, compared to how my committment to Liverpool started so early and has grown, until it's literally a part of who I am. Of course, I could pick a LOI club and maybe in 30 years time I'll feel the same way, but how do I pick in the first place?

I live in Naas, so geographically the closest clubs to me are probably Kildare or Rovers. I also have some 'history' with Pats ( I lived in Inchicore about 10 years ago and went to a few Pats games, I even ended up helping them out at training and with kit etc. But it started taking up too much time and I eased off, then moved and I haven't been to a game since ). So, looking at those 3 clubs, if I were to choose one I start thinking about things like 'how easy is it to get to' or 'is there parking' etc. etc. Hardly factors that end up with a club in your heart.

So basically, how does anyone deliberately go out and pick a club to start supporting, when I'd imagine most of us here have supported clubs from a young age, or because of a particular reason ( family supported them, went to games with parents or friends etc. )?

J.

djpbarry

dyl10 wrote: »

At the end of the day, clubs in our league should operate within their means in the long term.

Clubs in every league should operate within their means, but a pretty dramatic paradigm-shift is required before that happens.

dyl10 wrote: »

It's not like many of the leagues players would decide to go to England if their wages were cut...

Why not? During the Shels exodus, Jason Byrne, Bobby Ryan, Colin Hawkins and Sean Dillon all headed across the water, Graham Gartland left Drogheda for Scotland and Cork’s difficulties have just resulted in Colin Healy and Denis Behan crossing the pond too. It’s a bit ridiculous to assume that players will not look at the available options abroad if circumstances in Ireland change.

DSB

I have a proposition, everyone come to Shels Vs Kildare County on Friday the 21st of August and experience 2 teams who seem to run a tight ship. With no current financial mismanagement, and no overspending to speak of, you'll all have a great time, we're agreed?

geurrp the yard

DSB wrote: »

I have a proposition, everyone come to Shels Vs Kildare County on Friday the 21st of August and experience 2 teams who seem to run a tight ship. With no current financial mismanagement, and no overspending to speak of, you'll all have a great time, we're agreed?

Your grand, Id rather go to a Leinster Senior league match.

DSB

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Your grand, Id rather go to a Leinster Senior league match.

Geurrp out of that.

dyl10

djpbarry wrote: »

Why not? During the Shels exodus, Jason Byrne, Bobby Ryan, Colin Hawkins and Sean Dillon all headed across the water, Graham Gartland left Drogheda for Scotland and Cork’s difficulties have just resulted in Colin Healy and Denis Behan crossing the pond too. It’s a bit ridiculous to assume that players will not look at the available options abroad if circumstances in Ireland change.

The majority of players named moved when they became free agents/when their club hit financial difficulties and had to sell them. When there contracts expired the named players would have left the LOI if the option was there for them.

The named players moved for another crack at it across the water, not because they couldn't get full-time contracts here. It's just incidental that their clubs went bust to allow them the chance to move.
Naming the above players is no different to naming JOF, Bennet, Wes Hoolihan, Doyle, Long or Forde.

geurrp the yard wrote: »

Your grand, Id rather go to a Leinster Senior league match.

The top of the Leinster Senior is probably of better standard than the bottom of the First Division.

dyl10

Pure Cork wrote: »

I know that one of the named players who moved to the Championship didn't want to leave.

Why?
€1000 a week not enough for him here?

Pure Cork

dyl10 wrote: »

The majority of players named moved when they became free agents/when their club hit financial difficulties and had to sell them. When there contracts expired the named players would have left the LOI if the option was there for them.

The named players moved for another crack at it across the water, not because they couldn't get full-time contracts here. It's just incidental that their clubs went bust to allow them the chance to move.
Naming the above players is no different to naming JOF, Bennet, Wes Hoolihan, Doyle, Long or Forde.



The top of the Leinster Senior is probably of better standard than the bottom of the First Division.

I know that one of the named players who moved to the Championship didn't want to leave, but being guaranteed your paycheck when you have a family is obviously very important.