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Ireland accepts two Guantánamo inmates

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    #32
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Glad to see this shocking abuse of human rights of a hellhole closed down. Happy to see these innocent men to have a chance to live a good life here in Ireland.

    Is it not an assumption to say that these men were innocent?

    However, I think as long as they do not pursue terrorist activities within Irish borders, and as long as they start an entirely new life clean from Islamic extremism they are fine by me.


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    #33
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    sovtek wrote: »
    The Irish Independent headlined this with shock figures of €430,000 to have Garda protection. I'm surprised no ones starting bitching about that yet. I'm still unsure as to why they need protection though...the Indo never says.

    Small price to pay for some brownie points in Washington even if the figure is accurate.


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    #34
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    I can't help but wonder why they would want to come to Ireland.

    If they fled Uzbekistan because of persecution (and that's not hard to believe, given it's human rights record) and went to Afghanistan, why can't they be relocated somewhere else in the region? If they'd be suspected of cooperation with the US upon return to Afghanistan, why not, say Pakistan (assuming they speak Pashto) or another country in the area?

    I imagine they'd be much better off financially if they were simply given the money the US is going to pay us to take them, and relocated to one of those countries.

    Just to clarify, I'm not particularly concerned that they are being relocated in Ireland, I'm just curious as to why they'd want to be - in a way it makes it more likely they're not terrorists, surely if they were they'd be happy to go back to Afghanistan?

    Edit: Just read that areas of Thailand and Australia are Pashto speaking too, jaysus lads, get the request in for there, the weather here is rubbish!! (this is assuming they speak Pashto of course)


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    #35
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Do you really think anywhere else in the region has a decent human rights record? Also do you think it's a wise idea to put someone who is suspected of terrorist activity back in an area like Afghanistan and Pakistan where they are currently dealing with the Taleban?

    In Ireland there is little hope that they will get involved in militant activity or an extreme form of Islam (from what I've seen the Islamic community in Ireland is very moderate), our country whether or not people moan about it has a high level of civil liberties, and has a high regard for human rights.


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    #36
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Do you really think anywhere else in the region has a decent human rights record?

    Did I say that?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Also do you think it's a wise idea to put someone who is suspected of terrorist activity back in an area like Afghanistan and Pakistan where they are currently dealing with the Taleban?

    The whole point of my post is what the prisoners reasoning behind wanting to come to Ireland is. Not what the reason the authorities might have.


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    #37
    weepee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭weepee


    That will be 80,002 non nationals on the live register then.


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    #38
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    One of the detainees destined for Ireland is Oibek Jamalundinovich Jabarov


    Here's his lawyer's explanation of how he ended up in Cuba
    Oybek’s 6-year long imprisonment at the hands of the U.S. government is a tragic case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now 30 years old, Oybek and his pregnant wife, infant son, and elderly mother were living with other Uzbek refugees in northern Afghanistan in 2001 when fighting broke out between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance. Oybek was not captured on the battlefield, nor was he armed. Instead, he accepted a ride from a group of Northern Alliance soldiers he met at a roadside teahouse who said they would give him a ride to Mazar-e-Sharif. Unfortunately, instead of driving him to Mazar-e-Sharif, the soldiers took Oybek to Bagram Air Base where they handed him over to U.S. forces, undoubtedly in exchange for a sizable bounty. In a desperately poor, war-torn country, Oybek was an easy mark for soldiers responding to leaflets dropped throughout Afghanistan by the U.S. military offering thousands of dollars in cash rewards to anyone who turned over a Taliban or foreign fighter.


    He goes on to say:
    My client is more Borat, than he is Kahlid Sheik Mohammed.


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    #39
    diverdriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    Show me proof that these men are terrorists
    Show me proof they're not. You cannot and will not. Because you have no more evidence than anyone else. In any case you have an agenda as is made clear in most of your posts.

    You care not a whit for these people, you just have a cynical anti American, anti western point of view.

    For the most part the people you profess to support would happily slice your head off live on Al Jazerra with a blunt saw even as you protest your dislike of America.

    If you love these people so much why don't you offer a room to them in your house.

    [QUOTE]Oybek was not captured on the battlefield, nor was he armed. Instead, he accepted a ride from a group of Northern Alliance soldiers he met at a roadside teahouse who said they would give him a ride to Mazar-e-Sharif. [/QUOTE]With due respect that is utter bollix.

    When are you people going to live in the real world?


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    #40
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    diverdriver wrote: »
    Show me proof they're not. You cannot and will not. Because you have no more evidence than anyone else. In any case you have an agenda as is made clear in most of your posts.

    You care not a whit for these people, you just have a cynical anti American, anti western point of view.

    For the most part the people you profess to support would happily slice your head off live on Al Jazerra with a blunt saw even as you protest your dislike of America.

    If you love these people so much why don't you offer a room to them in your house.

    [QUOTE]Oybek was not captured on the battlefield, nor was he armed. Instead, he accepted a ride from a group of Northern Alliance soldiers he met at a roadside teahouse who said they would give him a ride to Mazar-e-Sharif. [/QUOTE]With due respect that is utter bollix.

    When are you people going to live in the real world?


    At last someone with a bit of sense


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    #41
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    diverdriver wrote: »
    With due respect that is utter bollix.

    When are you people going to live in the real world?

    This was from a statement given by his lawyer to the US House of Representatives, but since you know it to be bollox and you clearly live in the real world, I'm sure you'll be posting evidence of his guilt.

    But hurry up, because the US don't think he is a threat and are about to release him.


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    #42
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    diverdriver wrote: »
    Show me proof they're not. You cannot and will not. Because you have no more evidence than anyone else. In any case you have an agenda as is made clear in most of your posts.

    People are presumed innocent until proven otherwise. There is no reason for anyone to provide proof of there innocence, in civilized societies, we generally assume people to be innocent and for the accuser to provide evidence to back up there accusation. Seeing as you are unable to provide any evidence to back up your claims, then it is safe to assume these men are innocent of any wrong doing.

    Also, the fact that the US has been unable to find any evidence of wrong doing and they would have a hell of a lot more resources than anyone on this board.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    You care not a whit for these people, you just have a cynical anti American, anti western point of view.

    How exactly is it Anti-American to help the US out with a problem? Surely giving them a hand, when they ask for it is Pro-American if anything.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    For the most part the people you profess to support would happily slice your head off live on Al Jazerra with a blunt saw even as you protest your dislike of America.

    Again, there is no proof these guys were a part of any terrorists organization.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    If you love these people so much why don't you offer a room to them in your house.

    Are you really going to drag things down to this level of silliness?!?
    diverdriver wrote: »
    With due respect that is utter bollix.

    When are you people going to live in the real world?

    If it is bollix, then prove what your saying. Otherwise, the Man deserves to be presumed innocent like everyone else.


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    #43
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    At last someone with a bit of sense

    Hardly. Madness is sense today it seems.


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    #44
    diverdriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    Oh stop it please, Jesus what world do you people live in? Honestly the level of naivety shown here is breathtaking.

    Everybody in Guantanamo bay is innocent, all of them happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Is that what you want to hear? Then believe it.

    I have no illusions about how the Bush administration went about the so called 'war on terror'. But it's becoming clear that for all Obama's idealism has been tempered with the reality that not everyone held there is safe to release. I suspect he's been horrified by some of the briefings he's been given about some of the detainees. Many simply cannot be released because they will go out there and kill again and again.

    It's a horrific dilemma. Obama knows that he cannot win. Some of the detainees are hard core Islamists that cannot be released. But by whatever standard of justice they cannot be convicted through lack of evidence. What does he do? Maybe you experts know?

    I can easily withstand the notion that our two detainees are cuddly wuddly innocents cruelly misappropriated. Sure take them in. It's hard to get explosives in this country and the chances of them exploding themselves in the LUAS is slim enough.

    But why take the chance, what's in it for us?


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    #45
    therewillbe
    Registered Users Posts: 741 ✭✭✭therewillbe


    FFS,What on earth do we need this pair for?Have we not got enough on our plate at present.send them back to their own country.I aint going down the pc line.Enough is enough.Lets look after our own people.


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    #46
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭Soldie


    diverdriver wrote: »
    I can easily withstand the notion that our two detainees are cuddly wuddly innocents cruelly misappropriated. Sure take them in. It's hard to get explosives in this country and the chances of them exploding themselves in the LUAS is slim enough.

    Every Palestinian, Irish Republican and Guantánamo inmate spends their free time helping old ladies cross the road. Conversely; every Israeli, Unionist and American is a child molestor. Didn't you know?


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    #47
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    diverdriver wrote: »
    Oh stop it please, Jesus what world do you people live in? Honestly the level of naivety shown here is breathtaking.

    Naivety, has feck all to do with it. The norm is to presume innocence until proven otherwise. You simple refuse to address this point at all, and are still insisting on there guilt. Hell, you can't even detail what exactly you think these men are guilty of. Seriously, tell me exactly what you think these men are guilty of, what specific acts they engaged in, none of this vague stuff you have been going on about.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    Everybody in Guantanamo bay is innocent, all of them happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Is that what you want to hear? Then believe it.

    No one is claiming there all innocent. Sure, if you run around and grab enough random people, you bound to get a few guilty one's due to dumb luck.

    Still, the tactics used to kidnap some of these people, were bound to result in a large number of innocent people being wrongfully imprisoned.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    I have no illusions about how the Bush administration went about the so called 'war on terror'. But it's becoming clear that for all Obama's idealism has been tempered with the reality that not everyone held there is safe to release. I suspect he's been horrified by some of the briefings he's been given about some of the detainees. Many simply cannot be released because they will go out there and kill again and again.

    How do you know they will do that?!? Can you now predict the future?!? If these guys are as guilty as you seem to think they are, then there really should be a load of proof and they should have no trouble bringing them to a court.

    Sure, we should lock up all adult males, as we tend to engage in the vast majority of violent crime, terrorism, war and what not on this planet. So, as a preventative measure lets just chuck us all into a bloody cell.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    It's a horrific dilemma. Obama knows that he cannot win. Some of the detainees are hard core Islamists that cannot be released. But by whatever standard of justice they cannot be convicted through lack of evidence. What does he do? Maybe you experts know?

    Its not really a dilemma. If they can't prove guilt, then they need to be let go. If these people are as hard core as you say, then they really shouldn't have no trouble bringing them to court and proving there guilt.
    diverdriver wrote: »
    I can easily withstand the notion that our two detainees are cuddly wuddly innocents cruelly misappropriated. Sure take them in. It's hard to get explosives in this country and the chances of them exploding themselves in the LUAS is slim enough.

    But why take the chance, what's in it for us?

    To help out our good "pals" the US.

    Weren't you just complaining about people being Anti-American a minute ago btw?!?


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    #48
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Soldie wrote: »
    Every Palestinian, Irish Republican and Guantánamo inmate spends their free time helping old ladies cross the road. Conversely; every Israeli, Unionist and American is a child molestor. Didn't you know?

    I can't help but laugh at irony of your statement. The fact that people have been basically saying these 2 guys are guilty with no proof whatsoever and you are actually suggesting people here arguing against that, some how hold similar views against Israeli's and the US is pretty damn funny.

    Let me guess, you think these 2 guys are guilty of terrorism in the absence of any proof and are actually accusing other people of holding a similar position in the case of American's and Israeli's, despite the fact no one here suggested any such thing. To make a accusation of Anti-Americanism against people, who are supporting helping the US out with problem here is really rather silly.


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    #49
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    therewillbe wrote: »
    FFS,What on earth do we need this pair for?Have we not got enough on our plate at present.send them back to their own country.I aint going down the pc line.Enough is enough.Lets look after our own people.

    We're just doing our friends in the US a favour by taking these two guys in. I'm sure it'll buy us some political capital, so its a win-win situation all round.

    It's not like two people are going to make much difference to out economic situation. Who knows, they might be an asset to the country.


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