Sexism

MagicMarker

Khannie wrote: »

What now? I am yet to see a push up related injury*, though I have rarely seen a push up done correctly.



*sore muscles the next day do not count as an injury in my book, else I'm constantly in a state of injury. I've had sore muscles from hard work somewhere on my body for the last week or more.

Obviously I'm not saying you'll break your arm if you do a push up wrong, but of course there are minor injuries that can happen during any kind of exercise.

This is all besides the point, which is that offering to help a woman lift something because she may damage her womb and cause proplems later on in life during pregnancy, is really kinda silly.

Terodil

I am yet to witness a woman offering to help carry something heavy when the man in question is weak.

'Hey, you look as if you're ready to fall over, let me help you, weakling?'

Sexism? Yes.

---

On more general terms, as long as nobody is getting damaged mentally or physically, I think it takes some really bad experiences or serious malevolence to construe nice gestures as sexist. E.g. opening the doors, pulling the chair back, taking the coat off etc. Yes I know you can do all that stuff yourself. I'm not doing it because I'm a man and you're a woman, I'm doing it because I appreciate you and want you to be comfortable :rolleyes:

d'Oracle

MagicMarker wrote: »

Obviously I'm not saying you'll break your arm if you do a push up wrong, but of course there are minor injuries that can happen during any kind of exercise.

This is all besides the point, which is that offering to help a woman lift something because she may damage her womb and cause proplems later on in life during pregnancy, is really kinda silly.

I think the thread wants to be about push-ups.
Its taken its own direction.

Its alive.....

Orla K

Orla K wrote: »

'can you not reverse it?'

To be fair alot of people can't.

I remember going too by my first car, and being abused by this salesman because I didn't want a micra. :mad:

I really like to see the politeness that is chilivary, It puts me in such good form.
For something to be sexism, there has to be a desire to degrade the individual in my opinion.
Frankly I just ignore those people, because the best answer for them is to get on with my own business.

Once I asked about opportunities for career advancement in an interview. I was told that "The lads like those jobs".
And to be fair it saved me wasting my time with company.

kayos

God reading this thread makes me think even holding the door open for someone and that someone happens to be feamle could be deemed sexist. I'll do it for any one male or female. To me its just manners...

Have we come so far as to now think that what is done out of manners or curtisy is now being viewed by some as a sexist thing? I really hope not or I'm in trouble.

Khannie

Orla K wrote: »

But anyone who knows they need help and won't ask I deem as an 'idiot'.

It's very rare that somebody actually "needs" help. Most of the time people can get by without it. I don't see the harm in being offered it though.

Let's pretend for a minute......

I see you're about to lift a heavy item and I'm pretty certain that you're gonna struggle a bit doing it. Now let's say I think it'll be f*ck all effort for me to lift the same item. I'm gonna offer to lift it for you. That's how I was brought up and I'm glad of it.

Are you seriously gonna be offended by that?

Nevyn

Terodil wrote: »

I am yet to witness a woman offering to help carry something heavy when the man in question is weak.

I have, it's good manners and considerate.

Terodil wrote: »

'Hey, you look as if you're ready to fall over, let me help you, weakling?'

I would never say that, but would say "Hey do you need a hand with that, it may be easier with two people".

Terodil wrote: »

On more general terms, as long as nobody is getting damaged mentally or physically, I think it takes some really bad experiences or serious malevolence to construe nice gestures as sexist. E.g. opening the doors, pulling the chair back, taking the coat off etc. Yes I know you can do all that stuff yourself. I'm not doing it because I'm a man and you're a woman, I'm doing it because I appreciate you and want you to be comfortable :rolleyes:

I would say it depends, offering to lift something or help to lift something in the work place is nice, but someone offering to take my coat or pull back a chair for me in the work place would bother me, that type of behaviour while out of a date or with a partner is wonderful mind.

Opening doors seems to be a minefield tbh, but if that is part of someone's good manners I won't disrespect them or myself by being rude about it.

shellyboo

Terodil wrote: »

I am yet to witness a woman offering to help carry something heavy when the man in question is weak.

'Hey, you look as if you're ready to fall over, let me help you, weakling?'

Sexism? Yes.

I'd say that's fairly disingenuous now, tbh. I highly doubt that there are many women out there who would let ANYONE, man or woman, struggle to the point of falling over without offering to help.

On a less extreme scale, sure it happens. My 17 year old brother, who's skinny as a rake, often carries things for me, and I'd imagine I'm a good bit stronger than him. But he offers and I think it'd be rude to refuse politeness like that, especially when he's at the age he's at, it's nice that he even thinks of it.

There's a lot of etiquette issues tied up with this - I mean, would you not be offended, Terodil, if a woman offered to carry something for you if you weren't really struggling? I can't think of too many men I know who wouldn't take that as an insult or a dig.

Terodil wrote: »

On more general terms, as long as nobody is getting damaged mentally or physically, I think it takes some really bad experiences or serious malevolence to construe nice gestures as sexist. E.g. opening the doors, pulling the chair back, taking the coat off etc. Yes I know you can do all that stuff yourself. I'm not doing it because I'm a man and you're a woman, I'm doing it because I appreciate you and want you to be comfortable :rolleyes:

I'm right with you on this though. I completely appreciate chivalry and politeness and good manners, it's a real winner for me. If a man is thoughtful enough to do any of these things, I'm sold.

d'Oracle

kayos wrote: »

God reading this thread makes me think even holding the door open for someone and that someone happens to be feamle could be deemed sexist.

I'm not sure where you got that......

In fairness the thread started. Went more or less to plevic injuries and lifting, then pushups then a few guys saying its ok to help girls. No girls protesting much.

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote: »

A womb doesn't have to be prolapsed or semi prolapsed to causes issues with carrying a pregnancy to term.
I don't have an issues lifting CRTs or changing a tyre personally.

If a woman knows how to left things properly and feels she can and isn't in a heap with cramps then great but the not expecting women to do so is about consideration, after all should a woman have to explain that she is not up to lifting something due to cramps and bleeding from the crotch and should work collegees have to hear it?

It's easier and better manners to offer and if you don't need assistance to politely refuse and take the offer as being well meaning and considerate and not sexist.

You can't just change your original premise of why you believed women should not be lifting things. You distinctly referred to a woman's womb as the reason, now you seem to have backed down and brought up period cramps, which are completely unrelated to what's being discussed.

Your original post was quite clearly perpetuating a myth. (Although, if you can link to something reputable which indicates that women lifting things carries a serious risk to their ability to carry a pregnancy to term, then I will stand corrected and accept your point.)

Btw, it is indeed good manners to offer help to others who may need it, but gender should not come into that.

Otis Driftwood

I would consider myself to be a little old fashioned in some respects.Eg,if I saw a woman carrying a couple of shopping bags I would ask if she needed a hand.Absolutely nothing sexist in my offer because as Khannie pointed out,by and large,men are physically stronger than women yet on more than one occasion I was told to F off.Why is this?Do women think that when a guy offers her some assistance that he is going to mug her or something?

Same as if Im out and the bar is crowded.If I had a seat I would always offer it to a female standing nearby,whether I knew them or not but again,on more than one occasion I was told to stick it.

Dont get me wrong,more often than not,the abouve 2 examples would be well received but it does happen that Ive gotten rude responses by simply trying to be a decent human being.I believe thats because of 1 of 2 things.

1.The "im a female,I dont need a mans help"
2.They think that as a bloke,I have some other agenda for making the offer.

They are both sexist reasons.

Even on this very forum there is a "men are wusses" thread.Sexist,no?

If someone went onto the BGRH forum or even AH and started a similar thread only directed at women,how would that go down?

Im not naive enough to think that men are more sinned against than sinning when it comes to sexism.The fact is,the level of the 2 are poles apart.There is the blatant and obvious sexism ie the womans place is in the home,Im a man,Id never change nappies,thats the womans job etc.Both absolute nonsense but unfortunatly things like this do exist.My own father God bless him would be very much of this mindset.Its not his fault,he grew up in a rural area where that was and still is,to a certain extent anyway,the norm.

I would see the above as being forgivable though,men in his age group come from a totally different generation and its near impossible to change a life long mindset.What does annoy me is when I hear men of a similar age group to me spouting this retro BS.FFS,its 2009,not the 1950s.Or when a woman comments on this attitude some people automatically assume she is a bra burning feminist or something ridiculous like that.

I do think sexism on some level will always exist,certainly for the rest of my lifetime but its up to us as parents and future parents to do our level best to raise our kids in a less phalocentric society.

(the above might seem a little muddled,Im tired.:o)

gillo_100

shellyboo wrote: »

There's a lot of etiquette issues tied up with this - I mean, would you not be offended, Terodil, if a woman offered to carry something for you if you weren't really struggling? I can't think of too many men I know who wouldn't take that as an insult or a dig.

Can't say its ever happened me, but I would just think it odd as opposed to being offended.
The same way that I would think it odd to offer to carry something for a woman if she wasn't struggling in any way.

Khannie

shellyboo wrote: »

I'm right with you on this though. I completely appreciate chivalry and politeness and good manners, it's a real winner for me. If a man is thoughtful enough to do any of these things, I'm sold.

/me takes note for sexytime seduction at the karaoke beers

shellyboo

Khannie wrote: »

/me takes note for sexytime seduction at the karaoke beers

o_0

It's not nice to tease, Khannie!

Terodil

shellyboo wrote: »

I'd say that's fairly disingenuous now, tbh. I highly doubt that there are many women out there who would let ANYONE, man or woman, struggle to the point of falling over without offering to help.

Hmm, I'm honestly not trying to build up a point here, I genuinely haven't seen it happen that way around yet... I think. Or if I have it must have been so rare that I can't remember.

Besides my made-up quote was to demonstrate two things: The sexism involved in the failure of some women to offer help (according to my experience) and the sexism involved in men regarding it as utter humiliation to be helped by a woman.

shellyboo wrote: »

There's a lot of etiquette issues tied up with this - I mean, would you not be offended, Terodil, if a woman offered to carry something for you if you weren't really struggling? I can't think of too many men I know who wouldn't take that as an insult or a dig.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to get at with my imaginary quote. And that is sexism, whatever way we want to turn it. Most things can easily be carried together, so it's not a 1/0 choice anyway

Running Bing

Oh get over it, I'll always help a women lift something heavy, hold the door for them or let them enter into a room first. If your too insecure to accept that fair enough but I was raised to treat women right. :rolleyes:

Nevyn

Cos periods have nothing to do with a woman having a womb :rolleyes:

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote: »

Cos periods have nothing to do with a woman having a womb :rolleyes:

The argument that women shouldn't lift heavy things because they might damage their pelvic floor ligaments has absolutely nothing to do with periods or cramps.

Nevyn

You always seem to want to argue with me JC 2K3, I really don't know why.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

The argument that women shouldn't lift heavy things because they might damage their pelvic floor ligaments has absolutely nothing to do with periods or cramps.

And the argument was both*, and both are related to having a womb.

*as in lifting things incorrectly when you have not been trained and which are too heavy

bakkiesbotha

The reason it is considered gentlemanly to help women with certain physical activities, such as opening doors or lifting things, is not because a gentleman believes that a woman is incapable of doing these things themselves, it is out of politeness. It is a way of sparing her blushes and keeping alive a fictional image of a woman.

A gentleman recognises the difficulty in maintaining the elaborate house of cards that is a woman in public. It demands fierce concentration to make sure that your face is tilted at the right angle, your stomach is tucked in, your ass is minimised, your back is straight, your walk is just so, and your face is displaying an carefree expression, as if none of this is actually going on. And a woman can't afford to take her mind off the job for a second, or the whole complicated edifice will come crumbling down.

Also, many women squeeze themselves into clothes that don't fit and that look ridiculous in all but one or two poses, so they need to hold these poses all night, and can't afford to move normally.

Just like a gentleman walks on the outside of the pavement in order to shield his companion from any splashes from the passing traffic, he performs these little courtiesies like opening doors and lifting boxes for her so that she doesn't have to lean clumsily in one direction and reveal a flabby tricep, or have to bend over and display an enormous ass.

Just like someone said, a gentleman does this so as not to draw attention to a woman's less attractive features, like bleeding at the crotch.

d'Oracle

bakkiesbotha wrote: »

The reason it is considered gentlemanly to help women with certain physical activities, such as opening doors or lifting things, is not because a gentleman believes that a woman is incapable of doing these things themselves, it is out of politeness. It is a way of sparing her blushes and keeping alive a fictional image of a woman.

A gentleman recognises the difficulty in maintaining the elaborate house of cards that is a woman in public. It demands fierce concentration to make sure that your face is tilted at the right angle, your stomach is tucked in, your ass is minimised, your back is straight, your walk is just so, and your face is displaying an carefree expression, as if none of this is actually going on. And a woman can't afford to take her mind off the job for a second, or the whole complicated edifice will come crumbling down.

Also, many women squeeze themselves into clothes that don't fit and that look ridiculous in all but one or two poses, so they need to hold these poses all night, and can't afford to move normally.

Just like a gentleman walks on the outside of the pavement in order to shield his companion from any splashes from the passing traffic, he performs these little courtiesies like opening doors and lifting boxes for her so that she doesn't have to lean clumsily in one direction and reveal a flabby tricep, or have to bend over and display an enormous ass.

Just like someone said, a gentleman does this so as not to draw attention to a woman's less attractive features, like bleeding at the crotch.

Due to your user title, I find your post scary.

the_syco

Meh. When I worked in a cinema, I'd lift the heavy stuff, cos I was a man. Also, cos I was a tall man. Finally, cos all the women were either too small, or too fragile. For eaxmple, if they wanted to bring over a cylinder of syrup, or a small gas cylinder, they'd have to go with someone else to lift the cylinder onto a trolley, push the trolley over, get it off the trolley, etc. Some of the more fragile ladies just couldn't lift the cylinder, even with help. I could carry one with each hand, no problem.

Me being able to lift the cylinders wasn't sexism. It was a case of: if they lifted the cylinders, they'd fail, or hurt themselves in the process.

Me being able to lift something that you can't isn't sexist, it's common sense.

Macha

the_syco wrote: »

Me being able to lift something that you can't isn't sexist, it's common sense.

No, it isn't sexist. But referring to women who aren't as strong as you as 'fragile' might be just a bit...but I think it's all in the intent. If there's no malice behind it, I don't think anything bad of any offer for help.

I gotta say, I feel sorry for guys these days - they probably don't know whether to offer to help or not for fear of being considered a chauvanist pig or unhelpful git.

the_syco

taconnol wrote: »

No, it isn't sexist. But referring to women who aren't as strong as you as 'fragile' might be just a bit...

One of said "fragile" ladies suffered injury to her ribs when one of the lads gave her a bear hug.

Khannie

taconnol wrote: »

I gotta say, I feel sorry for guys these days - they probably don't know whether to offer to help or not for fear of being considered a chauvanist pig or unhelpful git.

I can confirm that this is the case. Mostly I just offer the help anyway. Mostly people seem happy to get it. Sometimes people seem a bit shocked, or look like they think I have other motives.

sam34

kayos wrote: »

God reading this thread makes me think even holding the door open for someone and that someone happens to be feamle could be deemed sexist. I'll do it for any one male or female. To me its just manners...

Have we come so far as to now think that what is done out of manners or curtisy is now being viewed by some as a sexist thing? I really hope not or I'm in trouble.

nope, not all women take offence at such basic courtesy...

shellyboo wrote: »

I completely appreciate chivalry and politeness and good manners, it's a real winner for me. If a man is thoughtful enough to do any of these things, I'm sold.

nedtheshed wrote: »

I would consider myself to be a little old fashioned in some respects.QUOTE]

i'm with shelly on this one.... chivalry earns a guy 100 bonus points in my estimation

Macha

Heh, ok point taken.

I have to say, this has backfired on me once or twice where I've told my boyfriend not to offer to help me with a suitcase and then been left at the bottom of the stairs in a metro station, puffing and red-faced..

Orla K

nedtheshed wrote: »

I would consider myself to be a little old fashioned in some respects.Eg,if I saw a woman carrying a couple of shopping bags I would ask if she needed a hand.Absolutely nothing sexist in my offer because as Khannie pointed out,by and large,men are physically stronger than women yet on more than one occasion I was told to F off.Why is this?Do women think that when a guy offers her some assistance that he is going to mug her or something?

Same as if Im out and the bar is crowded.If I had a seat I would always offer it to a female standing nearby,whether I knew them or not but again,on more than one occasion I was told to stick it.

Dont get me wrong,more often than not,the abouve 2 examples would be well received but it does happen that Ive gotten rude responses by simply trying to be a decent human being.I believe thats because of 1 of 2 things.

1.The "im a female,I dont need a mans help"
2.They think that as a bloke,I have some other agenda for making the offer.

They are both sexist reasons.

Even on this very forum there is a "men are wusses" thread.Sexist,no?

If someone went onto the BGRH forum or even AH and started a similar thread only directed at women,how would that go down?

Im not naive enough to think that men are more sinned against than sinning when it comes to sexism.The fact is,the level of the 2 are poles apart.There is the blatant and obvious sexism ie the womans place is in the home,Im a man,Id never change nappies,thats the womans job etc.Both absolute nonsense but unfortunatly things like this do exist.My own father God bless him would be very much of this mindset.Its not his fault,he grew up in a rural area where that was and still is,to a certain extent anyway,the norm.

I would see the above as being forgivable though,men in his age group come from a totally different generation and its near impossible to change a life long mindset.What does annoy me is when I hear men of a similar age group to me spouting this retro BS.FFS,its 2009,not the 1950s.Or when a woman comments on this attitude some people automatically assume she is a bra burning feminist or something ridiculous like that.

I do think sexism on some level will always exist,certainly for the rest of my lifetime but its up to us as parents and future parents to do our level best to raise our kids in a less phalocentric society.

(the above might seem a little muddled,Im tired.:o)

It might be a little muddled but I think it's the issue that's muddled not you. Also people seem to be focusing on etiquette rather than sexism (as for the holding doors open I did it to a guy and he gave out to me, also someone held a door open for me today, because my hands were full, I also said thank you to that person).

I'm glad you brought up the other tread. You think it's sexist but other people here have said if it's not malicious it's not sexist. Well I'm fairly sure that, that person who started it didn't mean it in a malicious way.

I just can't figure out what would be sexist and what's not. I've looked up on the history, looked at the leading figures, looked at todays society and media and it's evolved into something that I just can't define.

Otis Driftwood

Just in relation to the other thread,I have no issue with it whatsoever,its very light hearted and in good fun.:)

The sad thing is,if a similar thread was started with genders reversed,no matter how light hearted it started off,Id be pretty sure it would eventually descend into out right sexism.

As for sexism in general directed towards men,I pass no remarks at all and cant even remember a time that I did.If someone is rude enough to refuse help carrying their shopping when they are obviously struggling or to take offence to me holding a door,thats their problem,not mine.

Like I said previously,acts of chivalry (such as they are) are generally well received and truth be told,its feels good to get a nice smile from a stranger for something as simple as holding a door.

lizzyvera

There is such a thing as sexual dimorphism and there is no point denying that most men are stronger than most women and can effortlessly do things that women would strain to do, so it makes sense for them to fill those roles. It is frustrating to watch people slowly do things that you find easy.

I used to always answer the phone in the take away where I worked, because I had the best English and it irritated me when the others were slow and didn't know the area. That was not me being racist- that was practical.
Same goes for men offering to lift things.

I've never felt discriminated against as a girl.