"Anti-American" phrase disappeared along with Bush?

jonny72

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

Europe is the result of US military intervention.

I want a libertarian iraq, I want free people, free markets and limited government for Iraq. As it stands, I'll content myself with the fact that iraqis now have a say in the governing of Iraq and hope (most likely in vain) that liberalism will flourish.

6 years on, they have a massive out of control 'security' force, created to combat insurgency, this force is now raping and randomly killing who they want when they want on a massive scale. Basic services and infrastructure are about on a par with Somalia. Homosexuals are now being hunted down and killed, often tortured to death. Every extremist, radical, Islamic fundamentalist group is just waiting with baited breath until the second the US forces leave.

I too, am content, that the Iraqi's have a say in the governing of their country, because that makes it all worth it.

Liam Byrne

Sand wrote: »

That the government of Iraq will be accountable (however imperfectly) to the Iraqi people for the forseeable future. For good or bad.

This is something that others take for granted. Perhaps too much so.

"Accountable" is different to dsmythy's implication that it somehow guarantees "non-murderous" and "responsible".

It didn't guarantee either in the U.S., and it didn't guarantee "responsible" here in Ireland.

So "accountable" might be an improvement (for those who weren't killed), but it would be preferable if people compared like with like or didn't imply benefits that may not even apply in order to further their case.

And - of course - just like Saddam, whom the U.S. put in there in the first place, remember - the Iraq government will be "accountable" to the U.S. as well.

Bob Z

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

uh, the removal of one of the worst tyrants of the late 20th century and imposition of a democratic system of government in iraq?

The Iraqi war will cause problems in That Country(and region) for generations to Come. Iraq may at some point even be split into 3 separate Countries

nacho libre

Not much has changed since George left office. I see the US is still forging alliances with dictators.

It seems people with left-wing views here and in America were naive enough to believe that Obama being elected would hearld a significant change in US foreign policy. If this guy doesn't get his heathcare reform package passed he'll be a lame duck for the remaining years of his presidency.

ilkhanid

Of course some people will never give Obama a chance, because he's guilty of the heinous crime of being POTUS.
I have seen posts on various boards claiming that he is just as evil as Bush and just as bent on invasions,overthrowing governments, securing oilfields and so on and so forth. the arguments run as follows; if it seems otherwise then that is because Obama is more cunning and deceitful than Bush was. Obama is determined to overthrow the governments of Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba,Honduras etc, but he lies to our faces and declares he is'nt interested in subversion while the CIA is undermining these countries. Obama says he is interested in a new beginning with Iran but the CIA is behind the recent disturbances and it was they, in fact, who murdered Negha Agha. Obama is acting tough with Netanyahu but it's all a facade and they are buddies behind the scenes. Obama is determined to stay in Afghanistan to use it as a staging area for the coming invasion of Iran/Pakistan/the coming war with China. Obama is financing the Uighurs in China....nothing has changed, the leopard doesn't change its spots etc. You get the drift...

nacho libre

ilkhanid wrote: »

Of course some people will never give Obama a chance, because he's guilty of the heinous crime of being POTUS.
I have seen posts on various boards claiming that he is just as evil as Bush and just as bent on invasions,overthrowing governments, securing oilfields and so on and so forth. the arguments run as follows; if it seems otherwise then that is because Obama is more cunning and deceitful than Bush was. Obama is determined to overthrow the governments of Bolivia, Ecuador, Cuba,Honduras etc, but he lies to our faces and declares he is'nt interested in subversion while the CIA is undermining these countries. Obama says he is interested in a new beginning with Iran but the CIA is behind the recent disturbances and it was they, in fact, who murdered Negha Agha. Obama is acting tough with Netanyahu but it's all a facade and they are buddies behind the scenes. Obama is determined to stay in Afghanistan to use it as a staging area for the coming invasion of Iran/Pakistan/the coming war with China. Obama is financing the Uighurs in China....nothing has changed, the leopard doesn't change its spots etc. You get the drift...

So you don't think it's a bit rich of the American Government to make public statements expressing concerns about democracy in Iran, whilst ignoring the blatant on-going subverting of democracy by the likes of Karimov and Bakiyev. It is interesting the way some people manage to find way a way of championing democracy of in one sphere, yet conveniently overlook or ignore gross violations of the democractic process in other countries that America has alliances with.

It's as if there are two distinct types of dictator: the bad dictator(the guy who is evil, but worse still is not compliant with our economic interests)

the good dictator( the dictator who is no angel, but he's our dictator so we'll overlook his flaws)

yet having said that, you in fact maybe right about Obama; he might have a different vision for US foreign policy from his predecessor, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are others pulling in the opposite direction. I'm not going to make specific charges, as it can't be proven what the likes of the CIA is or isn't up to but given their dubious history i doubt much has changed.

ilkhanid

Well, is it not the point that Obama-unlike his predecessors-did not rush out with all-encompassing, tactless, condemnatory statements about Iran, but made nuanced, considered ones? But it seems that whatever he says, it makes no difference, so he might as well have come out with the usual rant. We are also assuming that Obama is some kind of helpless puppet unable to control the CIA or any military or security agency in the US.
in fact it seems that for some people the mindset is this " We don't know anything about the new President, but since he is President of the US-and therefore a bad'un by definition- let's go on the working assumption that he is guilty of all charges to start with. Proof is not really necessary, and any evidence for the defence is irelevant in any case, since we can take it as read that anything he says is a lie."
Obama may have a different vision, and it's execution may run into difficulties...we will see, but justice is not served by condemning him off the bat.

Manic Moran

Basic services and infrastructure are about on a par with Somalia.

Can anyone who has been to Somalia verify that the infrastructure is as good there are he's saying it is? I've been to Iraq, Somalia, however, I've missed out on.

NTM

nacho libre

ilkhanid wrote: »

Well, is it not the point that Obama-unlike his predecessors-did not rush out with all-encompassing, tactless, condemnatory statements about Iran, but made nuanced, considered ones? But it seems that whatever he says, it makes no difference, so he might as well have come out with the usual rant. We are also assuming that Obama is some kind of helpless puppet unable to control the CIA or any military or security agency in the US.
in fact it seems that for some people the mindset is this " We don't know anything about the new President, but since he is President of the US-and therefore a bad'un by definition- let's go on the working assumption that he is guilty of all charges to start with. Proof is not really necessary, and any evidence for the defence is irelevant in any case, since we can take it as read that anything he says is a lie."
Obama may have a different vision, and it's execution may run into difficulties...we will see, but justice is not served by condemning him off the bat.

yes, a different approach from his predecessor in the sense that he was more diplomatic about his approach to Iran, but defeaning silence, to my knowledge, on other countries with dubious regimes that America is on good terms with. In that regard i see little difference from his predecessor. Still applying the same double standards of old.

As for whether he has a different vision, i did state that this might be so, but i still question whether he has the power to implement it. He is a left-leaning leader in country that is traditionally very right-wing. So if this is the case i hope he has the power to control other element who may not see things his way.

Bob Z

ilkhanid wrote: »

Of course some people will never give Obama a chance, because he's guilty of the heinous crime of being POTUS.

Obamba seems like a good guy. He is very calm ad collected. But you have to judge someone on what they DO not what they say they will do or their personality

jonny72

Manic Moran wrote: »

Can anyone who has been to Somalia verify that the infrastructure is as good there are he's saying it is? I've been to Iraq, Somalia, however, I've missed out on.

NTM

I said quite a few other things in that paragraph that don't seem to have been contended. And it will only get worse, when the US leaves, that country will implode.