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Farming a welfare scheme or viable business?
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Yeah, but that is not really an argument to keep our food supply in the hands of a golden few. It reads more like an argument for nationalisation.People need food, Europe had its shortage of food in the past, it doesn't want to go there again and have to depend on imports that might not be there. This is why agriculture is protected, people need air to breathe, clean water to drink, food and shelter, the basics for life, it is not like other businesses.
Everyone needs food and the world's population continues to grow, we saw the food riots of 2007 and how something as simple as using food for fuel led to price increases and death.
The food supply in this world is finely balanced.0 -
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But...what many people here are advocating is a significant reduction in the numbers of people working in farming and a consolidation of smaller farms into larger ones to take advantage of economies of scale.Yeah, but that is not really an argument to keep our food supply in the hands of a golden few. It reads more like an argument for nationalisation.
Surely that approach is more likely to leave our food supply in the hands of a golden few..?0 -
But...what many people here are advocating is a significant reduction in the numbers of people working in farming and a consolidation of smaller farms into larger ones to take advantage of economies of scale.
Surely that approach is more likely to leave our food supply in the hands of a golden few..?
Economies of scale is not properly transferable to farming (well Dairy Farming really) , profit margins stay the same regardless of farm size.0 -
I would prefer large farms administered from an organ of the state.But...what many people here are advocating is a significant reduction in the numbers of people working in farming and a consolidation of smaller farms into larger ones to take advantage of economies of scale.
Surely that approach is more likely to leave our food supply in the hands of a golden few..?
Slap on some democratic controls and heavy regulations with a goal of national self-sufficiency.
But that is unlikely, so I am open minded to commericially viable farms instead.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Oh, I know. But I was trying to point out the flaw in RedPlanet's argument (well as I see it anyway..)itsallaboutheL wrote: »Economies of scale is not properly transferable to farming (well Dairy Farming really) , profit margins stay the same regardless of farm size.
Edit: RedPlanet, do you not think market forces have to play a part? Plus full national self-sufficiency isn't that desirable (I like my coffee & chocolate) or do you mean self-sufficiency where possible?
And why do you want large farms, commercial or state-run? Are you adhering to the 'economies of scale' argument?0 -
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Why on earth would you want large state run farms?? I can't think of anything that would make agriculture more inefficient?I would prefer large farms administered from an organ of the state.
Slap on some democratic controls and heavy regulations with a goal of national self-sufficiency.
But that is unlikely, so I am open minded to commericially viable farms instead.
I can't for the life of my understand why some posters are advocating cartels and others advocating state farms, but yet if this was actually the case they would be the first people to shout their mouths off about farmers being a cartell or the waste of the state farms, lets privatise them. Absolute pure madness0 -
How is the food supply in the hands of a golden few?? In fact one of the key objectives of CAP is to sustain the family farm of the EU. As per the department of agriculture in 2007 there was 128,200 farm holdings in Ireland alone - hardly a golden few is it. So from this point of view CAP is successful. However as i have already mentioned about 10 pages ago Irish agriculture does need to change, farms need to get bigger and processors need to get more efficient. I have never denied this. What i do argue with is the fact that subsidies are the only thing that are keeping Irish farmers with food on their tables and i'm deeply concerned by the lack of public understanding as to the current state of agricultureYeah, but that is not really an argument to keep our food supply in the hands of a golden few. It reads more like an argument for nationalisation.
Redplanet do you have deep rooted socilist or communist ideologies as you seem to have an immense bitterness towards farming?? Do you have a problem with the fact that farmers own land and you don't??0 -
Why on earth would you want large state run farms?? I can't think of anything that would make agriculture more inefficient?
I can't for the life of my understand why some posters are advocating cartels and others advocating state farms, but yet if this was actually the case they would be the first people to shout their mouths off about farmers being a cartell or the waste of the state farms, lets privatise them. Absolute pure madness
REDplanet eh??0 -
All very relevant points about irish farms Bob.an excellent post but i would point to the fact that new zealand has many advantages over ireland , better climate , drier land plus its much easier to put a large farm together in new zealand than in ireland , farms in ireland are very fragmented , even those with several hundred acres would not have it all in the one block , being a new country ( NZ) you dont get windy roads carving huge chunks of land in half like you do here
Also everything that you say about NZ is true, they have excellent land and climate and are excellent farmers, nobody can deny any of this.
However lets no get carried away by them, NZ only produces 2% of the world's milk, Ireland without a quota could probably match them (in amount produced and assuming a reallocation of lands from beef and tillage as happened in NZ)0 -
How is the food supply in the hands of a golden few?? In fact one of the key objectives of CAP is to sustain the family farm of the EU. As per the department of agriculture in 2007 there was 128,200 farm holdings in Ireland alone - hardly a golden few is it. So from this point of view CAP is successful. However as i have already mentioned about 10 pages ago Irish agriculture does need to change, farms need to get bigger and processors need to get more efficient. I have never denied this. What i do argue with is the fact that subsidies are the only thing that are keeping Irish farmers with food on their tables and i'm deeply concerned by the lack of public understanding as to the current state of agriculture
Redplanet do you have deep rooted socilist or communist ideologies as you seem to have an immense bitterness towards farming?? Do you have a problem with the fact that farmers own land and you don't??
Well, if there's one empirical fact that is unquestioned in the Economics literature it's the having farms in private hands results in a much higher level of production than having farming communes. One of the first "free market" reforms in China was to give land back to the farmers, precisely because it works out so much better and China at that time wasn't exactly economically liberal.0 -
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Thanks nesf, i would have thought that was obvious to every man woman and child in the Western world, obviously notWell, if there's one empirical fact that is unquestioned in the Economics literature it's the having farms in private hands results in a much higher level of production than having farming communes. One of the first "free market" reforms in China was to give land back to the farmers, precisely because it works out so much better and China at that time wasn't exactly economically liberal.0 -
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It's the ultimate combination, that we see time and time again. And it's starting to really annoy me.
Private ownership, with public subsidies, when things don't work out exactly as planned. Of course if things do work out well, you can keep the profits.
I've yet to read a convincing argument for farm subsidies, on or off this thread.0 -
It's the ultimate combination, that we see time and time again. And it's starting to really annoy me.
Private ownership, with public subsidies, when things don't work out exactly as planned. Of course if things do work out well, you can keep the profits.
I've yet to read a convincing argument for farm subsidies, on or off this thread.
Me neither, didn't they get rid of them in New Zealand years ago and the sky didn't fall on their heads? How is it they can get their lamb into shops in Ireland cheaper than Irish stuff even though they have to ship it 25,000 miles???0 -
butterormayo wrote: »Me neither, didn't they get rid of them in New Zealand years ago and the sky didn't fall on their heads? How is it they can get their lamb into shops in Ireland cheaper than Irish stuff even though they have to ship it 25,000 miles???
Productions costs are minimal in comparison0 -
if we had 10,000 farmers it would probably be viable enough. There's currently somewhere around 40,000 full time farmers AFAIK. That's still diverse enough to make sure we're not held to ransom any more than we are with 40,000.Surely that approach is more likely to leave our food supply in the hands of a golden few..?
There is simply no way that that is actually true. It may be true in terms of culture considering the attitude of those here is they don't want large scale farming to work. If I had a project I didn't want to go ahead at work, I could fairly much sit back and ignore it so that it wouldnt. Put the effort in and it will work.itsallaboutheL wrote: »Economies of scale is not properly transferable to farming (well Dairy Farming really) , profit margins stay the same regardless of farm size.
And you know what my dad did when his job wasn't putting food on the table? He got a second job! None of this is unique to the farming industry. Why do farmers thisk they're any different to anyone else?What i do argue with is the fact that subsidies are the only thing that are keeping Irish farmers with food on their tables and i'm deeply concerned by the lack of public understanding as to the current state of agriculture
Farmers are a mollycoddled section of society and I for one am sick of it when there's farmers out ther breaking their arses getting no subsidies who don't complain.
The simple facts are
1 - A farm is a business
2 - Businesses require investment
3 - Businesses don't always make a profit
4 - If a business can't provide for it's staff and owner then it should be shut down.
It appears to me that there isn't a farmer in the country that understands that apart from the guy on the AIB ad.0 -
There is simply no way that that is actually true. It may be true in terms of culture considering the attitude of those here is they don't want large scale farming to work. If I had a project I didn't want to go ahead at work, I could fairly much sit back and ignore it so that it wouldnt. Put the effort in and it will work.
ninety9er can you please respond to my post number 248, i would love your thoughts0 -
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Farmers are a mollycoddled section of society and I for one am sick of it when there's farmers out ther breaking their arses getting no subsidies who don't complain.
The simple facts are
1 - A farm is a business
2 - Businesses require investment
3 - Businesses don't always make a profit
4 - If a business can't provide for it's staff and owner then it should be shut down.
It appears to me that there isn't a farmer in the country that understands that apart from the guy on the AIB ad.
You're going to have to do two things for me please..
1. Explain your concept of Economies of Scale and how it applies to Dairy Farmers
2. Show me any farmer in the country who isn't recieving a grant or subsidy , wether they're breaking their arse or not...
(although tbh, i agree with you on this point, my i'll get slated if i elaborate)0 -
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I'm sorry my dissertation has been getting in the way of replying to you sweetie, don't worry it'll be over soon and then we can be together again! :pac:Perhaps your time would be better spent following the threads you comment on rather than trawling through Wikipedia.Remove subsidies and farmers will be reimbursed, btw, through higher prices for the consumer. Theres an economic argument there that Ive mentioned a few times.
Good so you agree with me and tac and tipp and others? wonderful.0 -
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butterormayo wrote: »Me neither, didn't they get rid of them in New Zealand years ago and the sky didn't fall on their heads? How is it they can get their lamb into shops in Ireland cheaper than Irish stuff even though they have to ship it 25,000 miles???
Can you tell me how many farmers there were before and after ending subsidies? How pollution has changed? what the animals are being fed? Do you think that there could possibly be any difference in conditions in Ireland and New Zealand or do you feel the comparison is totally fair??0 -
"Tom" has a factory employing 100 people and producing 2,000 widgets per day. Each widget has a raw material cost of €1, a production cost of €3. There are fixed costs of Electricity, Administration and Communications which are €100k per annum, as well as the 40 year mortgage which is €50k per annum adjusted for the Enterpirse Ireland grant of €200k. Labour costs are €2 per widget. Tom must sell at €6.15 to remain viable in the market.Firstly lets dispel your fixed cost arguement, lets take a 50 cow herd on 50 acres, he's been at it a while so has no borrowings. So he buys 50 acres to increase his herd to 100, cost say 500k (would have to be beside him), he then needs extra sheds and probably new parlour another 120k, so thats 620k which needs to be repaid. Now from a position where he had no borrowings he now has to repay 620k, in this situation how has his fixed costs NOT increased?? please explain. (Look whether a cost is fixed or variable (assuming produciton) it still needs to be paid for, simple fact)
Tom's factory is open 200 days per year.
Fixed costs are €150k
Total production is 400,000 widgets each with a unit variable cost of €6 and fixed overhead absorbtion of €0.38 = €6.38 per unit
Total Production Cost is €2,552.000
Total Revenue is €2,460,000
Loss is €92,000
To produce 6,000 widgets per day, Tom must expand the space by 1/3 and hire 60 more people. Machinery will cost €100,000. However unlike the farmer next door who got his business free from daddy, Tom already has a debenture mortgage of €2.2m. He will need to raise another €500k from the bank to improve the buildings and buy the machinery.
It is irrelevant to Tom's loan that he has to hire more staff, as the cost is labour per unit, not fixed
Tom's variable costs per unit remain the same apart from labour, with new practices facilitated by extra staff meaing it has reduced to €1.90 per unit, but the fixed cost of the mortgage is €500k more, less a €50k grant conditional on employing the extra 60 employees.
Mortgage now costs €62.5k as opposed to €50k. Administration requires an extra 15 hours per week estimated at €20k per year.
Fixed costs have increased from €150k to €182.5k
Total production is 1,000,000 widgets each with a unit variable cost of €5.90 and fixed overhead absorbtion of €0.18 = €6.08 per unit
Total Production Cost is €6,080,000
Total Revenue is €6,150,000
Profit is €70,000
Higher fixed costs doesn't always equate to less profit. Now if you are with me so far.Secondly having expanded from 50 to 100 cows the farmer needs to hire additional labour (none in past) so his labour costs have increased from zero per unit to whatever. Also I don’t know if you have any clue how a cow works but the grain (concentrates)/fertiliser point is completely wrong. On your average herd once you get over about 1200 gallons a cow these cost increase exponentially meaning your cost per litre for these items increases
I'd be farily sure drawings on the average farm are significant enough apart from the small profit the balance sheet shows. I'm sure of this because I've had to go through the cheque books to break them down. It will still only take the same amount of time to milk 100 cows, because you've invested (not spent a fortune on) the new parlour and outhouses. The opportunities for diversification and further income from having an extra pair of hands around for a few hours a day far outweigh the cost.
I said business consultant. There is a significant difference. Financial consultants only want to know about the bottom line, business consultants evaluate the whole process.Thirdly don't for 1 second think that financial consultants are some kinda whizz kids, in practice a lot of them have no idea how to run a business they are simple number crunchers, simple example my sister in law runs a shop her consultant told her to stop selling fags (could have been newspapers can’t remember exactly but it was something like that) as she was not making any money on them, good accounting advice but very poor business advice as a lot of people while buying fags will buy Coke or chocolate or whatever which have large mark ups, so you need to sell the fags to get people in to buy your profitable products (loss leaders if you will) otherwise they go elsewhere and you’ve lost their business forever. Now tell me how that was good advice??
Happy now
Post #248 answered.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Not to burst your bubble ninety9er after all that effort, but you can't eat widgets (I jest I jest..)0 -
if we had 10,000 farmers it would probably be viable enough. There's currently somewhere around 40,000 full time farmers AFAIK. That's still diverse enough to make sure we're not held to ransom any more than we are with 40,000.
There is simply no way that that is actually true. It may be true in terms of culture considering the attitude of those here is they don't want large scale farming to work. If I had a project I didn't want to go ahead at work, I could fairly much sit back and ignore it so that it wouldnt. Put the effort in and it will work.
And you know what my dad did when his job wasn't putting food on the table? He got a second job! None of this is unique to the farming industry. Why do farmers thisk they're any different to anyone else?
Farmers are a mollycoddled section of society and I for one am sick of it when there's farmers out ther breaking their arses getting no subsidies who don't complain.
The simple facts are
1 - A farm is a business
2 - Businesses require investment
3 - Businesses don't always make a profit
4 - If a business can't provide for it's staff and owner then it should be shut down.
It appears to me that there isn't a farmer in the country that understands that apart from the guy on the AIB ad.
That guy in the AIB ad is not a representative of the reality, how many cows does that man want, how much would AIB have to lend out and with milk prices so bad how would he repay that money if the prices stayed so low?
AIB, the bank that lent over €1 billion to Liam Carroll - property developer, maybe AIB should be sticking with the smaller guy and at least look a bit realistic, no wonder they had such big losses.....0 -
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Thought: by scaling up our agricultural system, we may be reducing the number of people directly involved in producing our food. But a lot more people are needed along the agricultural chain, in oil production, fertiliser and other chemical production packaging and transportation to farms, in manufacturing heavy machinery and transportation vehicles, driving and maintaining these vehicles and infrastructure, working in the distribution centres, manufacturing packaging, etc etc.
Is that really more efficient?
Also, a lot of the new inputs into agriculture rely on imports, most spectacularly on imported energy but also fertilisers, chemicals, etc. Surely that's more money going out of our economy?0 -
People need food, Europe had its shortage of food in the past, it doesn't want to go there again and have to depend on imports that might not be there. This is why agriculture is protected, people need air to breathe, clean water to drink, food and shelter, the basics for life, it is not like other businesses.
What a rosy picture, as if! Our water quality is one of the worst in Europe - mostly, as a direct result of agriculture-related pollution. As for good food, lets not forget "angel dust", growth hormoners, antibiotics......
You're right, though, it's not like other businesses. A powerful and politically adept farming lobby has meant that it has got more than it's fair share of resources, for far too long. I don't even want to start on the parft-time farmer with the full-time job, as well. Give me a break!0 -
"Tom" has a factory employing 100 people and ........
Post #248 answered.
Paddy has a farm of 70 acres with 50 Dairy cows which he inherited from Daddy in 1982 with a £20,000 loan at 18%, Daddy had accrued some serious debt over the past 10 years what with th price of milk not being the best and the need to modernised his production methods
fast forward 25 years
Paddy has broke his balls paying back Daddies loans in the eighties even sold some of his land
Paddy is now 50, the price of milk is still the same, he is told by some knob of a business consultant that he has to double his herd size........
now Paddy's milkin machine has 6 units to double his herd size he will need 16 units, he can't obviously build on to the existing parlour so he builds a new one...
His new parlour has to reach some pretty stringent standards so he works out it will cost him €12,000 per unit which gives a total cost of €192,000.
Now Paddy needs new cows to milk in said parlour
70 lactating cows €1000 a piece they're not the best cows but they're not bad either, cost €70,000
Now Paddy needs to double his milk quota, he hasn't a hope in **** of getting that much off the Dairy so he pays thru the nose.
Paddy now needs more land, unfortunately he needs to more than double it as he wont get a dispensation from the Nitrates Directive..... 80 acres - €1.5 million
As Nitrates have been mentioned Paddy now has to double his Waste Manage ment capacity so he bulids a new slatted unit with housing for 70 extra cows.......cost € pick any number you'll probably be too low
Paddy has a pile of **** on his hands now so he has to pay for more contracting work
He has to double grain costs
He's going to more than double Vet bills
AI is going to go thru the roof
He's most certainly going to have a higher mortalitiy rate
He's going to have to cull probably 15 of the new cows when they don't go in calf
He's never going to sleep again between september and november what with calving that amount of cows on his own.
He did to be fair get some incentives of the governement through The Farm Waste Management Scheme etc
Unfortunalely for Paddy the government are refusing to cough up...
Poor auld Paddy tried to shoot himself yesterday but what with the price of milk he couldn't aford a cartridge...... he settled for drinking a bottle of Round-Up0 -
What a rosy picture, as if! Our water quality is one of the worst in Europe - mostly, as a direct result of agriculture-related pollution. As for good food, lets not forget "angel dust", growth hormoners, antibiotics......
You're right, though, it's not like other businesses. A powerful and politically adept farming lobby has meant that it has got more than it's fair share of resources, for far too long. I don't even want to start on the parft-time farmer with the full-time job, as well. Give me a break!
I attended Teagasc for a REPS course a few years ago. They had a guy from the fisheries board and he was showing how water quality had improved a lot during the scheme.
It is local authorities that are among the biggest polluters now with raw sewage going into rivers.
Do you know all the regulations, tell me who uses angel dust or growth promoters? We certainly never did on our farm and its a full time farm and we get antibiotics off a vet if an animal is sick and needs it. You are judging the majority by the minority.
It is not like other businesses, you can't make a meal out of a microchip, software, pharmaceuticals, Google or Ebay etc, all subsidised by the taxpayer.......0 -
Ha ha WOW possibly the worst response that i have ever seen in any arguement."Tom" has a factory employing 100 people and producing 2,000 widgets per day. Each widget has a raw material cost of €1, a production cost of €3. There are fixed costs of Electricity, Administration and Communications which are €100k per annum, as well as the 40 year mortgage which is €50k per annum adjusted for the Enterpirse Ireland grant of €200k. Labour costs are €2 per widget. Tom must sell at €6.15 to remain viable in the market.
Tom's factory is open 200 days per year.
Fixed costs are €150k
Total production is 400,000 widgets each with a unit variable cost of €6 and fixed overhead absorbtion of €0.38 = €6.38 per unit
Total Production Cost is €2,552.000
Total Revenue is €2,460,000
Loss is €92,000
To produce 6,000 widgets per day, Tom must expand the space by 1/3 and hire 60 more people. Machinery will cost €100,000. However unlike the farmer next door who got his business free from daddy, Tom already has a debenture mortgage of €2.2m. He will need to raise another €500k from the bank to improve the buildings and buy the machinery.
It is irrelevant to Tom's loan that he has to hire more staff, as the cost is labour per unit, not fixed
Tom's variable costs per unit remain the same apart from labour, with new practices facilitated by extra staff meaing it has reduced to €1.90 per unit, but the fixed cost of the mortgage is €500k more, less a €50k grant conditional on employing the extra 60 employees.
Mortgage now costs €62.5k as opposed to €50k. Administration requires an extra 15 hours per week estimated at €20k per year.
Fixed costs have increased from €150k to €182.5k
Total production is 1,000,000 widgets each with a unit variable cost of €5.90 and fixed overhead absorbtion of €0.18 = €6.08 per unit
Total Production Cost is €6,080,000
Total Revenue is €6,150,000
Profit is €70,000
Higher fixed costs doesn't always equate to less profit. Now if you are with me so far.
I'd be farily sure drawings on the average farm are significant enough apart from the small profit the balance sheet shows. I'm sure of this because I've had to go through the cheque books to break them down. It will still only take the same amount of time to milk 100 cows, because you've invested (not spent a fortune on) the new parlour and outhouses. The opportunities for diversification and further income from having an extra pair of hands around for a few hours a day far outweigh the cost.
I said business consultant. There is a significant difference. Financial consultants only want to know about the bottom line, business consultants evaluate the whole process.
Happy now
Post #248 answered.
First for a man that prides himself in being so smart you should know that if after spending the money TOM produces 6,000 units per day, and the factory is open 200 days as you stated then this is 1.2m units produced not 1m as you stated, if you cant do such simple maths then praise the lord your not my accountant
Second your labour rates are complete rubbish, at the start the cost is 2 per unit with 2000 produced, total labour 4,000 EUR per day for 100 people, giving each 40 EUR per day. Can i please see any man women or child who will work for 40 EUR per day, please show them to me, i could do with some cheap labour. Maybe if that was the case then this country wouldn't be in the mess its in but i digress. just FYI labour rates are very rarely as fixed per unit as you make out,perhaps in large manufacturing companies, but NOT in small businesses with a small number of employees, and definatley not in agriculture, you might want to bear that in mind.
Thirdly production has trebled but the factory has only increased by 1 third, this my dear friend has absolutely no baring on agriculture whatsoever and i mean NONE, just in case you don't understand. A farmers factory is his land, 100 acres holds 100 cows, 130 acres holds 130 cows NOT 300 cows as happens in your above example (a word i use very losely) same for beef and tillage. I can't stress this point enough
Fourthly you've used the word drawings in completly the wrong context, i said that concentrates and fertilers increase per unit of milk produced over a certain level, what the hell has that got to do with drawings, the costs i mention are a cost of production, where on earth did i mention drawings anyway. Also your profit is in your P&L, retained earnings in BS, at least get this right. Also please enlighten me as to the massive diversifiactions that a farmer can undertake with an extra pair of hands around and the returns they would make to cover the labour cost
Fifthly I have dealt with some of the biggest business consultants in the world, Anderson (while they were around), Accenture, PWC, KPMG and mostly CAP Gemini. My companies have used various consultants on various projects over the years and let me tell you 1 thing they all had in common, not 1 of them had a clue about our business, they produced massive reports with fundamental errors which proved they did not understand our business, our methods or our business model, for every 1 good solution i have seen 10 rubbish ones that they produce. So please don't give me this crap about business consultants in agriculture (or anywhere for that matter), the best agriculutural consultants are farmers themselves, why, because they understand the business better than anyone. This is proven on this thread even where non farmers have shown a complete lack of the basic fundamentals of agriculture, highlighted by yourself and the above garbage that you wrote
Sixthly we are arguing about agriculture and farming you could at least make an effort to give a farming based example, if you do some research you will see that all figures i use are realistic, in fact they are very mcuh on the cheap side, i.e 50 acres cost 500k (was costing double until recently) and a parlour and shed for 50 cows is 120k (i being generous here, our parlour cost about 90k and new shed this year for 50 cows will cost about 45k) So instead of wasting time making up rubbish examples at least do me the courtesy of producing something that is in some way relevant and realistic because your are wasting my time disproving your rubbish.0 -
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Again more rubbish, the biggest polluters of our waterways is now un treated sewerage so blame that on the county councils, planners whoeverWhat a rosy picture, as if! Our water quality is one of the worst in Europe - mostly, as a direct result of agriculture-related pollution. As for good food, lets not forget "angel dust", growth hormoners, antibiotics......
You're right, though, it's not like other businesses. A powerful and politically adept farming lobby has meant that it has got more than it's fair share of resources, for far too long. I don't even want to start on the parft-time farmer with the full-time job, as well. Give me a break!
Secondly as you seem blissfully unaware "angel dust" hormones etc were banned what 20 years ago i'd say, unlike a lot of other countries such as brazil where these are still legal and still very much in use
Thirdly what the hell is wrong with anti biotics, would you rather see an animal die with sickness?? do you not use anti biotics when your sick and doctor perscirbes them to you?? Just so you know the administration and sale of all vetinary products in now highly regulated and what each animal receives is all documented and checked, another thing that is much more losely practiced in a lot of other countries0
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