Farming a welfare scheme or viable business?

nessie911

donegalfella wrote: »

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You realy do sound like you think you are better than farmers... Look i live on a farm, my father farms 200 acres of a beef farm, allo four in my family have gone to college, my sister has her masters, my brother his degree, my other brother has a cert, and is a drafts man and apprentis capertener, and i am in college at the min, but that does not mean we think we are better than other people like you seem to do... My two brothers big dream is to farm, my father was ment to take the early retirement this year, due to health reasons, and now he cant because the goverment cut the early retirment sceme, so now the government is nearly paying the same to my brother because he is on the dole, because he could not take over the farm.

To say that farming is not a sustainable business is not true. My father as a single parent made his living off the farm, he paid for all of us to go to college, with only the farm income, while also expanding the farm. but truth be know he does need the grants etc because farmers are Not been paid wha other farmers across europe are being paid for there products...

As yea say that there are too many older farmers still farming, well you can blame Finna Fail for that as they took away the main insentive for both older men to leave farming and for younger ones to join, because they dont have a clue about what is actualy goin on.

Also donegal fella you have a total unrelistic view of farming because as you said above "But they sold quite a lot of prime commercial development land between 2005–07, and so they aren't dependent on tillage income anymore". so your parents are not the adv farmer, beacuse i can tell you that my father never sold an acre of land like your parents do...

No wonder you think that farmers drive round in there 4x4 jeeps, just cause your parents have a load of money to spend since they sold there land, does nt mean every one does.

Tipp Man

donegalfella wrote: »

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and are you prepared to pay the higher price for food that dismantling this system would lead to?? you do actually realise that you the consumer are the 1 that is actually being subsidised, you do realise that don't you??

Permabear

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Tipp Man

nessie911 wrote: »

You realy do sound like you think you are better than farmers... Look i live on a farm, my father farms 200 acres of a beef farm, allo four in my family have gone to college, my sister has her masters, my brother his degree, my other brother has a cert, and is a drafts man and apprentis capertener, and i am in college at the min, but that does not mean we think we are better than other people like you seem to do... My two brothers big dream is to farm, my father was ment to take the early retirement this year, due to health reasons, and now he cant because the goverment cut the early retirment sceme, so now the government is nearly paying the same to my brother because he is on the dole, because he could not take over the farm.

To say that farming is not a sustainable business is not true. My father as a single parent made his living off the farm, he paid for all of us to go to college, with only the farm income, while also expanding the farm. but truth be know he does need the grants etc because farmers are Not been paid wha other farmers across europe are being paid for there products...

As yea say that there are too many older farmers still farming, well you can blame Finna Fail for that as they took away the main insentive for both older men to leave farming and for younger ones to join, because they dont have a clue about what is actualy goin on.

A great post, whilst everyone in agriculture knows that the strucutre of farming needs to change (land to be passed to younger farmers, new entrants etc) Mr Smith seems to think otherwise. Whatever chance there was of strucural reform with the retirement scheme and young famers grants, the abolition of those 2 schemes will hold the succesion of farms back in Ireland which is bad for the industry.

Also as you say when are people going to realise that farmers are producing the best quality of food the world has ever seen for UNDER COSTS OF PRODUCTION. I mean its pretty simple either Jo Public pays more for his food, which is passed onto farmers, or the subsidies continue. Irish farmers are too the forefront of top quality food production, best wheat producers, best grass growers etc, all they want is to earn a living, its that simple really

Tipp Man

donegalfella wrote: »

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How can we not compete?? We are the best wheat producers in the world, we have a stable (albeit ****e:)) climate which grows the best and cheapest grass anywhere in the world, they're is no country in the world that can do farming better than Ireland can

nessie911

The government put strong incentives in place for many years to try to convince farmers to pass on their land to younger generations. The Early Retirement Scheme was one. The waiver on stamp duty when transferring land to qualified young farmers was another. What else did you expect the government to do?[/quote]

And these incentives were use when they were in place, i know many farmers in my area which used these. But now they are gone and people still was to use them like my father and brother, but my father was not old anofe to use them till this year, and now they are gone.

You tell me since you know alot about all types of farming what is he sapose to do for money if he gives up farming at the age of 55, which he is ment to because of serious health reasons.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Permabear

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nessie911

donegalfella wrote: »

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no one says that he should be any different but how is he to survive. Like the sceme was 15 thousand to let him retire, 75percent of which was comming from europe he could go claim some allowance from the government like most ppl are at the min, he could prob make 10 grand off the job seekers, get a free medical card, then i would actualy get a grant for college of round 6 grand it would prob work in our favour but he does not want to be a leach to a country which is already goin down the toilet.
if they left the sceme in place they would only have to pay less than four grand, but if he goes about it any other way they would end up paying at least 16

Permabear

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turgon

I worked on a farm 3 years ago for two summers in a row. The farmer I was working for was pretty well off, he had like a €150,000 surround sound system, nice cars etc etc. I think he had a 200 acre dairy farm, but I could be way off. I know he had more land than he used, for quotas etc. Anyway, he got €40,000 in CAP grants last year. Thats more than the average industrial wage. Clearly unsustainable.

Now, people are maintaining that removing these grants is useless; who is it hurting etc. The fact is that you are paying higher taxes for this produce. Even if you don't drink milk, don't eat beef, dont consume Irish cereals. The government has decided you must pay for this food, even if you don't eat it.

Instead, consumers should have their own control over to what food producers their money goes. If you think Irish beef is really great, then speak with your wallet. Equally if you don't care you should be fully entitled to eat cheap Brazilian beef.


Its clear that some members of the farming community have come to expect the government to pay for their lifestyle. Demanding retirement aid and REPS grants and all that. Its completely unsustainable.

nessie911

donegalfella wrote: »

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Are you not one of the people who were giving out about the current age of farmers, and now your saying that they should not retire...

If it was your father who relayed on the farm for money but needed to retire because he is ill and will never get better only worse, do you think that you would have these views...

You say your parents are farmers is your fathere one of these older men that everyone here is giving out about...

nessie911

turgon wrote: »

I worked on a farm 3 years ago for two summers in a row. The farmer I was working for was pretty well off, he had like a €150,000 surround sound system, nice cars etc etc. I think he had a 200 acre dairy farm, but I could be way off. I know he had more land than he used, for quotas etc. Anyway, he got €40,000 in CAP grants last year. Thats more than the average industrial wage. Clearly unsustainable.

Now, people are maintaining that removing these grants is useless; who is it hurting etc. The fact is that you are paying higher taxes for this produce. Even if you don't drink milk, don't eat beef, dont consume Irish cereals. The government has decided you must pay for this food, even if you don't eat it.

Instead, consumers should have their own control over to what food producers their money goes. If you think Irish beef is really great, then speak with your wallet. Equally if you don't care you should be fully entitled to eat cheap Brazilian beef.


Its clear that some members of the farming community have come to expect the government to pay for their lifestyle. Demanding retirement aid and REPS grants and all that. Its completely unsustainable.

Any farmer who can hire help is alot better off than your adv farmer. most farmers must do it all them selves.

I think that the answer to all this is to get the irish people to start growing there own veg, keeping there own animals for killing and milking there own cow, and growing there own cereal, and we will see how long they will carry on doing this for. I would love to get the likes of brian cowen etc to come and live and work on a farm for a month and see if they will survive...

Permabear

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dresden8

In the 80's when jobs in Dublin were uneconomic the government let whole areas of the capital become sh1tholes, in the national interest, going forward.

What makes the farmers special that they get subsidised to maintain their lifestyles and Dubliners can feck off and live in junkie infested crapholes?

I suppose yet again, Dublin gets everything.

turgon

dresden8 wrote: »

What makes the farmers special that they get subsidised to maintain their lifestyles and Dubliners can feck off and live in junkie infested crapholes?

Because we have such a big government, you cant even decide who or what area is getting an advantage or a disadvantage.

For example I get on the bus and pay my fare. Is my fare covering the cost of the OAP's fare, so I'm actually paying for more than I get? Or is the income taxed taxpayer subsiding my bus so I'm paying for less than I get? Who knows?

Ideally we should pay for services as we get them, so those who get the most out of the system pay the most. This could be covered to include all kinds grants, from farmers to sports.

astrofool

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why are you talking about something that you obviously haven't a clue about.

My response about letting land lie fallow was in response to BriantheBard making the claim that farmers would need to be forced to do it in a regular climate, when it is something that they would do anyway (maintain the land through crop rotation, or letting it lie fallow), even if they didn't get an EU subsidy for it, nothing more, nothing less.

I do wonder if we have the best climate in the world for certain crops, how come we have such a problem competing?

Farmers also have to remember that the supermarkets are able to demand the prices they do because someone will supply them at that price, usually be someone who is milking the subsidy system dry. If all farmers refused to supply at that price, the price would go up.

networks

i get 8000euro single farm payment,5000euro forestry premuim,thats my subsidy,im milking 35 cows on 27 hectares,21cent a litre last month,i dont draw social welfare,00 car,02 tractor,joined reps4 ist b4 closing date t.g.but i do think its crazy to be paying some farmers the huge amounts of sf payments,and cattle dealers being the worst offenders owning farms all over the country on the backs of genuine farmers/ejits??i wont break the bank neway!!!!!!!:(

ninty9er

turgon wrote: »

The fact is that you are paying higher taxes for this produce. Even if you don't drink milk, don't eat beef, dont consume Irish cereals. The government has decided you must pay for this food, even if you don't eat it.

It's entirely more probable that some German or French person is paying for it. Ireland is still a net benefactor from the EU budget due to CAP...8 years after we were due to become net contributors.

I'd much prefer that German person's tax to be building a Western Rail Corridor or Cork City LUAS etc...

It'll work out cheaper to put 90% of farmers on the dole and run all farms as businesses.

I don't buy this bull**** from that toerag Padraig Walshe that rural Ireland will die without farming...he should take a look around. Most people in rural Ireland work in factories and own no more than 2 or 3 acres.

irish_bob

Tipp Man wrote: »

How can we not compete?? We are the best wheat producers in the world, we have a stable (albeit ****e:)) climate which grows the best and cheapest grass anywhere in the world, they're is no country in the world that can do farming better than Ireland can

i was born on a farm and my brother is a full time farmer , i often help out on the home farm but i think your comment about no country being able to do farming better than ireland is quite silly , like something you would hear in a carleberg add , probabley the best farmers in the world

ireland and its farmers are no better than farmers in many countries , we are not as good as new zealand when it comes to growing grass because our climate is not as warm , our land is not as dry and our weather is too wet , as for our meat production and the claims that its superior in every way , nonesense , sure , its fine but ive eaten beef in argentina which was more delicscious than any steak ive ever had here , the IFA and i dont blame them ( thier a union like any other ) always claim that irish beef is vastly superior to south american beef for the simple reason that an irish bullock has an identification trail longer than any human in this country , they talk of tracability , in reality tracability is just another word for beauracracy , tracability mostly benfits civil servants at the dept of agri who earn a very good living by administering the redicolous amount of red tape that is involved in irish agriculture at every level , the consumers number one priority when it comes to meat like any other food is price , few are interested in reading in super quinn which farm the bullock was reared on and whether he ate grass most of his life , just because a bullock in south america isnt paying civil servants wages to the same degree they are here doesnt meant thier is anything much wrong with the beef in brazil or argentina

tracability while not a bad thing per say is just another word for beauracracy and it exists primarily in this country to provide jobs for civil servants at the dept of agri

dresden8

irish_bob wrote: »

tracability while not a bad thing per say is just another word for beauracracy and it exists primarily in this country to provide jobs for civil servants at the dept of agri

This is an area I'd like to explore. How "crap" is South American beef? How "Good" is Irish beef?

Maybe somewhat forlornly I'm hoping for "fair" debate. How much better are "European standards" versus overseas "standards"?

I've bougnt into "European is best" and I still do. Are there numbers around this?

In ignorance

Dresden.

astrofool

There is a lot of media hysteria in Europe, which sees the standards bodies scramble to come up with a way of maintaining the illusion of safety (traceability).

However, the proof is in the south American beef being bought every day, most people don't give a f*ck (I do and usually buy Irish and Scottish, where my family is farming ~1500 acres, but I wouldn't force my taste on someone else either).

brianthebard

astrofool wrote: »

I'm concerned, but then I can afford to buy most any food I want, but the price I pay is completely artificial due to subsidies.

Also, almost everyone will have a different definition of "healthy and reared well", and it should be a given that there is no contamination, but we're as bad as anyone here (Irish pork?).

For example, I would see halal meat as being a particularly inhumane of killing an animal, yet religions demand this method.

Well lets go with the EU definition to begin with, which Brazil and other countries often do not comply with, and are shut out of the market as a result.

In any other business, they could increase productivity to bring prices down and increase profits, as you say, in farming they are actively discouraged due to overproduction. Farming is not a business in this case, it's a charity.

This isn't the farmers fault.

Any good farmer, to increase productivity, should let land lie fallow, as the return on the land in later years will be greater. Any sane business plan would allow for this, so I wouldn't see this as being unproductive. Farmers who don't let a field lie fallow, will end up unable to compete and go out of business.

I assume you're referring back to a junior cert history book or something, leaving land fallow hasn't been the best practise since the agricultural revolution, there are other, more cost effective and productive means of keeping land productive without leaving it fallow.

astrofool wrote: »

My response about letting land lie fallow was in response to BriantheBard making the claim that farmers would need to be forced to do it in a regular climate,

I never made such a claim, you clearly don't understand agriculture the way you think you do, as Tipp Man and others have made clear.

turgon

brianthebard wrote: »

Well lets go with the EU definition to begin with, which Brazil and other countries often do not comply with, and are shut out of the market as a result.

The only reason they are shut out of the market is to give precedence to EU meat. Lets not pretend that its because of standards.

ronbyrne2005

taxpayers /consumers pay for this either way through higher consumer prices OR higher taxes. I'd rather pay slightly more in supermarket if i knew all the grants,subsidies etc that taxes are currently paying for were done away with. All the administration of grants/subsidies must cost a fortune too.

c-note

i'm from a farming background and have had to deal with the begrudgery since i was about 12.
yes farmers get grants and subsidies, for all kinds of things, we dont pay tax on permanant farm fixtures (fences, gates etc), and no, we probably cant stand on our own two feet.

but i'll offer the same arguement in favour of grants etc, that i usually do:


Farmers make up 7% of the irish workforce, when you add food processors etc that makes 10%.
if the grants etc stopped in the morning, unemplyment could jump from around 11% now, to somewhere near 20%.
So instead of grants the government would just double the social welfare payments, and loose out on whatever income tax they're currently collecting from the agri industry.

We could then say goodbye to billions of euro's of exports per year and on top of that send 100's of millions out of the country importing food.
With 150,000 people living now in isolated rural areas and unemployed expect a jump in alcaholism, suicide rates and mental health issues.

the price of land would collapse, good news if you want to buy, but if you already have a house, feel free to knock a fair chunk off its value as the site its on is now next to worthless.

my bottom line is that if the government are going to be giving people money, they might as well give to you to do something, instead of giving it to you for doing nothing.

Moriarty

ei.sdraob wrote: »

now on the topic of farmers, if you can not make a profit without subsidies then your business should fail

my business and most other business in country dosent receive a cent in subsidies, why should farmers?

What area of business are you in? I can imagine few businesses more critical to a countries well being and survival than agriculture. Nothing else matters if you can't feed yourself. The government support is there because it's an infrastructure that should be protected from failure due to the vagaries of market forces.

The idea is that farmers have a stable, predictable market and the consumer gets a stable, predictable supply of safe, high quality food. That's not completely where we are at the moment, but it's the underlying principle and something that deserves full support.

You don't need much of an imagination to see what could happen if Europe becomes unable to feed itself - just look at the turmoil in the energy import markets for some idea of where that will lead us.

SkepticOne

Moriarty wrote: »

What area of business are you in? I can imagine few businesses more critical to a countries well being and survival than agriculture. Nothing else matters if you can't feed yourself. The government support is there because it's an infrastructure that should be protected from failure due to the vagaries of market forces.

There is an element of logic in this, however a lot of our subsidies go on beef production the vast bulk of which is exported. From a pure food security point of view a somewhat lower subsidy would be appropriate.

RedPlanet

Originally Posted by Moriarty
I can imagine few businesses more critical to a countries well being and survival than agriculture. Nothing else matters if you can't feed yourself. The government support is there because it's an infrastructure that should be protected from failure due to the vagaries of market forces.

I accept that POV, however it's really an argument for nationalisation of farms isn't it?
Why in the world should those golden few, carry the "burden" of such a critical component of our society?
Infact, if we have huge state-run farms, then we could also force our prision population to work on them.

Originally Posted by c-note
Farmers make up 7% of the irish workforce, when you add food processors etc that makes 10%.
if the grants etc stopped in the morning, unemplyment could jump from around 11% now, to somewhere near 20%.
So instead of grants the government would just double the social welfare payments, and loose out on whatever income tax they're currently collecting from the agri industry.

It's the ol' JOBS card is it?
Well, the contruction sector had a bigger slice of the pie and i don't remember seeing too many folks here advocating grants to keep them afloat.

We could then say goodbye to billions of euro's of exports per year and on top of that send 100's of millions out of the country importing food.
With 150,000 people living now in isolated rural areas and unemployed expect a jump in alcaholism, suicide rates and mental health issues.
the price of land would collapse, good news if you want to buy, but if you already have a house, feel free to knock a fair chunk off its value as the site its on is now next to worthless.

That's doomsday stuff. I bet other opportunties are created in place of this broken subsidized system.