Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Farming a welfare scheme or viable business?
Options
Comments
-
Arrgghh, a cow isn't like a tap, you can't just turn her off and on as you wishdonegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.0 -
Just on your edit, surely this only applies in an economy with full employment?? Surely if we take half the farmers of Ireland off farms today (say 50k people) then we have 50k more people on the dole as opposed to producing these other things you talk about. your idea is only an ideology and certainly not true for Ireland todayIn farming it works like this: X amount of produce is made by Y people. Find the amount X can be sold for and divide it between the Y people. The easiest agricultural example is a modern milking parlour versus the old way of each cow being milked individually by a separate person. It works out an awful lot cheaper per litre at the shop by the modern method because fewer people need to get a living wage from the milk produced. One or two people can manage a fairly large herd and milk them whereas before it could take upwards of six or seven (or more, I'm not expert on it) to do the work in the old system.
Edit:
As an aside, the benefit for lower labour intensity for the economy is this. Each person not needed in the milking parlour because of the new machinery can produce something else or provide a different service. For the same number of people we can expand the number of "things" produced in the economy. The good sides of this is that we don't need as many people to produce sufficient for the country to subsist, which is obviously a good thing.
As an aside I think the max amount of cows that 1 man can manage is 150, this is assuming that a) he has invested a lot in exceptionally good infastructure on the farm and b) he's a seriously (and i mean seriously) hard worker. 120 is probably a more realisitic number0 -
Good post. Your last line is the key, most farmers would prefer no subsidy and proper price for their product, at the moment the only thing they are surviving on is the subs as for nearly all products the costs are higher than sales. I'm not sure how many times i have to say this for it to sink in so i'm going to shout it, FARMERS ARE CURRENTLY PRODUCING FOR UNDER THE COST OF PRDOCUTION.see you are just not getting it... On one hand you want to get rid of the subsidies, but on the other hand you wan to still pay the same amount for your food... You cant have it all your way...
Its not the farmers who cant cut a deal, because they use to get paid more for there products in the 80's, the problem is that the government are setting how much the farmer receives for there product because they are receiving subsidies. They are forced to sell their product for low prices on the grounds that these subsidies are to subsitise the amount of money they should be geting for there product. If these Subsidies were taken away the consumer would be charged a grate deal more for the product they are buying, because the farmer would have to charge more for selling his product to the factorys, its only logical when you think about it.
I think that every farmer in the country would prefer it if subsidies were remove, because then they would get paid for the product they are producing.0 -
bluestar87 wrote: »The 'economy of scale' argument continues to arise here. Firstly, you can not dismiss Irish Beef farmers as being 'inefficient' on the basis that they do not have the ability to hire staff on slave labour wages as they do in Brazil. Are the 'efficient' farmers those who do not have to pay 8.85/hour for staff? Are the 'efficient' farmers those who rip up the rainforest to make way for cattle? It is easy for those removed from the realities of the marketplace to make statements regarding efficiencies.
If you continue to pursue 'economy of scale' to the nth degree then please explain to me what industry in Ireland would survive in a free market globalised marketplace? And don't anybody patronise me about the creation of a knowledge based economy.
In relation to food availability, the world’s population will hit 10bn; we're only at 6.7bn at the moment. The number of arable acres in the world is decreasing. The Brazilians are reducing their beef herd. At a time of plenty it's easy to take food availability for granted. Crop failure is always a possibility. Yields of crops are not increasing, the yields we are getting over the last 10 years are getting harder to sustain. Do not take the food producers for granted. We are way too reliant on FDI in Ireland. Our future as an economic entity depends on food. We have the ability to feed much of Europe and it is not just farmers that will benefit from food sales. Most of the profit in food production is in processing. Denmark does not export live pigs. They export fully processed and packaged Bacon and Pork. The job creation potential of such a food revolution is massive. We can not afford to dismiss it.
This is a terrfic post. People are going on about economies of scale like you can simply add cows to a herd or plough more acres infinitly. The facts are that farming is a labour (and capital) intensive industry and given the ridiculous cost of labour in this damn country it is simply impossible to increase at will (there are other problems also)
You also raise some other great points, agriculture in some countries is having huge environmental impacts, Brazil slash and burn rainforest, Africa huge increase in desertification, same in Indian subcontinent, Oz worst droughts in years. Also as the population and urbanisation increase there is going to be significant increase in demand for water, already in places like California and Oz there is the seedlings of conflict between the demands for water for farming and for urban populations, this will only increase in the next few years. So you see all of these wonderful places that you guys talk about supplying us with cheap food either have environmental problems or potential future supply problems.
You only have to look at how Russia cut off the gas supply to Ukraine to see that the production/maintainence of supply of certain things in an economy is priceless, food let me tell you is top of the pile0 -
You should have quoted the next couple of lines after thatinteresting article at wikipedia about CAP.
I found this illuminating:
CAP price intervention has been criticised for creating artificially high food prices throughout the EU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#cite_note-autogenerated1-18
"Although the new decoupled payments were aimed at environmental measures, many farmers have found that without these payments their businesses would not be able to survive. With food prices dropping over the past thirty years in real terms, many products have been making less than their cost of production when sold at the farm gate"0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
Im saying that if it is economically inviable, then certainly there shouldnt be.0
-
Do the subsidies not get included by the farmer when working out what it costs to produce something? As in, if they don't produce, they don't get subsidies?
This also answers the question about whether it is a welfare scheme (it is).
CAP has to be reformed, they have to ensure that the subsidies get lessened and distributed more evenly, while encouraging produce to be produced where it is most efficient to do so (wage costs included). Situations like the french producing milk in the Alps where it is highly inefficient, should receive no state payment to do so.
All food should be subject to the same standards, and the average person on the street should expect food prices to rise (but their taxes should go down).
Subsidies mean that the true cost of food is not being seen by people (and this includes carbon footprint).
On the issue of security:
We could reasonably rely on a combination of the United States, western Europe, most of eastern europe, NZ, Australia and Japan as a wholly secure source of food.
South America, China slightly less so.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Define what you mean by economically unviable??? Irish farmers can and do produce cheap milk, they're just not being paid even enough to cover costs at the moment. do you understand the economics of a litre of milk, a farmer is getting 20c to produce it (which includes maintianing a cow for the year), your paying 120 in the shop, do you mean to tell me that sounds right to you?? Grain is making EUR100 a ton (or thereabouts), do you have any idea how much a new combine to harvest it costs?? (more than the cost of the house you live in let me tell you)Im saying that if it is economically inviable, then certainly there shouldnt be.
People are just completly out of touch with agriculture and just seem to write things without having any underlying knowledge of it and staying stupid things like just exit, just get bigger, just get more efficient. In fact they seem completly out of touch with how any business (more so small) works which may be part of the reason why Ireland has so little indigenous industry0 -
Well for starters the irish taxes won't go down but the food price would go up, how does that make irish people better off??Do the subsidies not get included by the farmer when working out what it costs to produce something? As in, if they don't produce, they don't get subsidies?
This also answers the question about whether it is a welfare scheme (it is).
CAP has to be reformed, they have to ensure that the subsidies get lessened and distributed more evenly, while encouraging produce to be produced where it is most efficient to do so (wage costs included). Situations like the french producing milk in the Alps where it is highly inefficient, should receive no state payment to do so.
All food should be subject to the same standards, and the average person on the street should expect food prices to rise (but their taxes should go down).
Subsidies mean that the true cost of food is not being seen by people (and this includes carbon footprint).
On the issue of security:
We could reasonably rely on a combination of the United States, western Europe, most of eastern europe, NZ, Australia and Japan as a wholly secure source of food.
South America, China slightly less so.
Secondly huge areas of Brazil and USA are being taken out of food production for ethanol production, these countries are not formulating their agri policy on the fact that we might need food, they are only thinking of themselves let me tell you.
you also contradict yourself by saying that the carbon footprint needs to be taken into account but yet you want food produced in the most efficient countries, if brazil can produce beef cheaper than ireland should all our beef be shipped up from there??0 -
Define what you mean by economically unviable???
Inviable: "Unable to survive or develop normally." If farmers cant produce food and milk without the state giving them cash payments, then they are inviable and should stop what theyre doing. I wouldnt start an arcade, run huge deficits and then expect the government to give me money.do you understand the economics of a litre of milk, a farmer is getting 20c to produce it (which includes maintianing a cow for the year), your paying 120 in the shop, do you mean to tell me that sounds right to you??
Well given the fact that consumers seem happy to pay this price I see nothing wrong with shops and co-ops applying the large markups they do. The "20c/litre" is also a myth, as we know. They get more than 20c through subsidies. The shops do not.People are just completly out of touch with agriculture and just seem to write things without having any underlying knowledge of it and staying stupid things like just exit
The reason I say "exit," is because I am not happy that Farmers get my money from the government. As I said, if I was an arcade owner, I wouldnt get subsidies. Why should they?just get bigger, just get more efficient.
Elementary economics would show that these two are often tied together. Economics of scale etc. That is why they are suggested.In fact they seem completly out of touch with how any business (more so small) works which may be part of the reason why Ireland has so little indigenous industry
Why dont you tell use where we are going wrong, then, rather than just telling us we are wrong?0 -
Does food security
Ireland is a net exporter of food, asfaikenvironmental issues
I fail to see what this has to with CAP. You cant just bring up any topic which you want, and just assume that that topic adds positively to your side of the debate. In this case one most describe hope the environment is improved by CAP.or employment in rural communities not concern you?
Meh. Not really. At least, not if I have to pay for the employment to exist. Which is exactly what is happening here. Its unfair that some people have a way of living that is essentially negative in that it requires other people to pay them for nothing in return.0 -
Just on food security, you seem to be taking a political slant at it (all countries you listed are politicaly stable etc) but food security is also significantly effected by enviromental stability (water shortages etc as i mentioned) and environmental sustainability and certainly from a food production point of view some of the countries you mentioned are not as environmentally sustainable as ireland. Are people not taking any enviromental consequences into accoun??
On the issue of security:
We could reasonably rely on a combination of the United States, western Europe, most of eastern europe, NZ, Australia and Japan as a wholly secure source of food.
South America, China slightly less so.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Yes, but the argument is being put forward that if Irish food producers are not economically viable, we should leave it to others, even of those other are from other countries, to produce our food for us. I'm saying this raises the question of food security.Ireland is a net exporter of food, asfaik
Then there's the question of fuel security. I'm not particularly overjoyed at the idea of depending on my beef to come from Brazil when it has been proven that oil prices can be very volatile.
I'm sorry it isn't instantly obvious to you but that doesn't mean you are correct in dismissing it. Large scale agriculture is worse for the environment for a number of reasons. For example, monoculture is bad for biodiversity, as it doesn't encourage wildlife, encourages the cutting down of hedgerows (or linear forests as they're also known) and requires increased use of pesticides. If you want to be purely economic about it, the work done by Ireland's biodiversity has been valued at €2.6bn per annum.I fail to see what this has to with CAP. You cant just bring up any topic which you want, and just assume that that topic adds positively to your side of the debate. In this case one most describe hope the environment is improved by CAP.
It is wrong to ignore these additional costs. As a result, one of the farmers subsidies schemes is directly related to environmentally-friendly farming: REPS.
Stop trying to dismiss things you don't understand as not relevant.
I think it's been made pretty obvious that it's government policy to ensure cheap food that is causing the current situation. Trying to blame the situation on the farmers is incredibly unfair, and incorrect.Meh. Not really. At least, not if I have to pay for the employment to exist. Which is exactly what is happening here. Its unfair that some people have a way of living that is essentially negative in that it requires other people to pay them for nothing in return.
I'm sorry you see these things in purely economic terms. I happen to consider the economy to be a tool and not the ultimate goal - something seriously missing in this country.0 -
Inviable: "Unable to survive or develop normally." If farmers cant produce food and milk without the state giving them cash payments, then they are inviable and should stop what theyre doing. I wouldnt start an arcade, run huge deficits and then expect the government to give me money.
Would you care to elaborate on all these subsidies that Dairy Farmers are getting??
Also you keep mentioning Economies of Scale , which is a principal that just isn't applicable to Irish Dairy Farming, As expansion occurs the cost per unit price increases if anything.0 -
Food Security is hardly being met by irish farmers today anyway.Yes, but the argument is being put forward that if Irish food producers are not economically viable, we should leave it to others, even of those other are from other countries, to produce our food for us. I'm saying this raises the question of food security.
I'll wager that most of our diet comes from imported food.
So that argument is a bit of a red herring.
Does the irish government have a food-security/indigenous farming plan that i am not aware of?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Food Security is hardly being met by irish farmers today anyway.
I'll wager that most of our diet comes from imported food.
I'm not sure of the stats, but I'd agree with you. However, that isn't a valid argument for increasing our dependence on imported food as has been proposed here.
It is most certainly a concern of the government, particularly considering the impacts climate change will have on crop yields:Does the irish government have a food-security/indigenous farming plan that i am not aware of?
http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/minister-emphasises-the-importance-of-food-security-in-the-climate-change-d/
The minister discusses it on a European level, but the national level is just as important.0 -
Yes, but the argument is being put forward that if Irish food producers are not economically viable, we should leave it to others, even of those other are from other countries, to produce our food for us. I'm saying this raises the question of food security.
We are in the EU ye know!Then there's the question of fuel security. I'm not particularly overjoyed at the idea of depending on my beef to come from Brazil when it has been proven that oil prices can be very volatile.
Well if our food becomes cheaper to produce than in Brazil + transport then farming will become economically viable again. Would I be right in saying that we are long way away from this scenario.monoculture is bad for biodiversity, as it doesn't encourage wildlife, encourages the cutting down of hedgerows (or linear forests as they're also known) and requires increased use of pesticides. If you want to be purely economic about it, the work done by Ireland's biodiversity has been valued at €2.6bn per annum.
They are all legitimate concerns. However if we were to take all the subsidies we pay farmers and invest in Wildlife reserves etc Im sure we would get a net gain in the environment.I think it's been made pretty obvious that it's government policy to ensure cheap food that is causing the current situation. Trying to blame the situation on the farmers is incredibly unfair, and incorrect.
At the same time, whenever I mention that farming shouldn't be incentivised I get abused saying that I dont care about the people living in the countryside who will be negatively impacted. Also, the farmers are certainly fighting for these subsidies.I happen to consider the economy to be a tool and not the ultimate goal - something seriously missing in this country.
You must be joking right? Are you really suggesting that government policy places too much of an emphasis on the economic side of things?itsallaboutheL wrote: »Also you keep mentioning Economies of Scale , which is a principal that just isn't applicable to Irish Dairy Farming, As expansion occurs the cost per unit price increases if anything.
How?0 -
Advertisement
-
Inviable: "Unable to survive or develop normally." If farmers cant produce food and milk without the state giving them cash payments, then they are inviable and should stop what theyre doing. I wouldnt start an arcade, run huge deficits and then expect the government to give me money.
That's just a rubbish analogy, farmers don't set the price of food, supermarkets do, farmers don't set the price they receive, manurfacturers do. An arcade owner would decide what prices he charges. They are 2 completely different situations0 -
Join Date:Posts: 6185
Are you aware of the increased pressure on land-use, includingWe are in the EU ye know!
-residential developments
-increase in biofuel crops
-impacts of climate change on weather patterns, water supply, yields, etc
-volatile prices of oil and oil-based inputs
-impact of food crises, such as foot-and-mouth, avian flu etc.
The security of food imported from other EU countries is great, of course. But we cannot be sure of how much they will have to export in future. I don't think everyone hoping everyone else will have enough food for everyone is such a good plan.
You haven't actually addressed the core issue of the volatility of fuel prices. I'm not just talking about high oil prices, I'm talking about volatile oil prices.Well if our food becomes cheaper to produce than in Brazil + transport then farming will become economically viable again. Would I be right in saying that we are long way away from this scenario.
Hah, sorry that's not how these things work. The important work of biodiversity is also on farmland, not separately in a nice fenced off wildlife reserve.They are all legitimate concerns. However if we were to take all the subsidies we pay farmers and invest in Wildlife reserves etc Im sure we would get a net gain in the environment.
Yes because as it stands, they have no hope of winning the battle of getting a fair price for their produce.At the same time, whenever I mention that farming shouldn't be incentivised I get abused saying that I dont care about the people living in the countryside who will be negatively impacted. Also, the farmers are certainly fighting for these subsidies.
Uh, yes. They pursued a narrow-minded, short-sighted economic strategy to the detriment of everything else including society (poverty gap increased between 1990 and 2009) and the environment (highest per capita GHG emissions in Europe, serious water problems and some of highest levels of landfill in Europe, serious urban sprawl, highest car use per capita in the WORLD, seriously pathetic attempts at protecting biodiversity, I could go on..You must be joking right? Are you really suggesting that government policy places too much of an emphasis on the economic side of things?0 -
Well given the fact that consumers seem happy to pay this price I see nothing wrong with shops and co-ops applying the large markups they do. The "20c/litre" is also a myth, as we know. They get more than 20c through subsidies. The shops do not.
You hear subsidy and you seem to think that every farmer in the country is receiving 100k cheque in the post for sitting on his ass, you have no clue. I prefer to work with numbers
An 80k gallon milk quota (350k litre) will receive about 12k in subsidies, thats about 3.5c a litre, not exactly a lottery windfall is it particularly when its being eaten into by costs0 -
For starters unless you are a German taxpayer then the amount that farmers receive from YOUR taxes is neglible, again arcade owner is completly irrelevant
The reason I say "exit," is because I am not happy that Farmers get my money from the government. As I said, if I was an arcade owner, I wouldnt get subsidies. Why should they?
Elementary economics would show that these two are often tied together. Economics of scale etc. That is why they are suggested.
Why dont you tell use where we are going wrong, then, rather than just telling us we are wrong?
I have already highlighted to you that there is only so far you can go with economies of scale, please read my posts rather than just typing what you want to hear
i'm not saying i have all the answers its just when people talk rubbish they need to be pulled up on it0 -
What do you mean nothing in return?? you get a highly secure, highly nutritious source of some of the best food in the world, what would a lot of africans pay for that??
Meh. Not really. At least, not if I have to pay for the employment to exist. Which is exactly what is happening here. Its unfair that some people have a way of living that is essentially negative in that it requires other people to pay them for nothing in return.
Also some stats for you, 10% of Irish exports come from Irish agri and 8.5% of employment in the whole economy is in the agricultural sector (as of Q2 08, god only knows what that has risen to now), so don't just just brush it off as some meaningless, insignificant industry. it is probably irelands most important and largest indiginous industry. How much of YOUR tax would the dole payments cost if agri was abandoned??0 -
That is not the point.For starters unless you are a German taxpayer then the amount that farmers receive from YOUR taxes is neglible
How many LUASes could we have built by now with that CAP money?
How many train lines, motorways, infastructure and public works projects could it have paid for?
It's not all German taxpaper money btw, i think you had earlier said it was 65-75% eu money.
But that doesn't make the point about farming being a welfare scheme any less true.0 -
Ireland is a net exporter of food, asfaik
I fail to see what this has to with CAP. You cant just bring up any topic which you want, and just assume that that topic adds positively to your side of the debate. In this case one most describe hope the environment is improved by CAP.
.
Ireland is a huge exporter of food, as i described above
On the subject of environment and CAP are you serious when you ask how the 2 are linked?? Cause if you are then you really shouldn't be debating here0 -
Food Security is hardly being met by irish farmers today anyway.
I'll wager that most of our diet comes from imported food.
So that argument is a bit of a red herring.
Does the irish government have a food-security/indigenous farming plan that i am not aware of?
Do you have a source to back up this wager?? in the basic foodstuffs then ireland is a huge net exporter, see my previous figures0 -
Do you have a source to back up this wager?? in the basic foodstuffs then ireland is a huge net exporter, see my previous figures
See my previous post about monoculture farming.
Nessie told us that Dairy was the most common type of farming here, then beef i think.
However, it's quite obvious that we don't just eat beef and dairy 3x a day.
Don't most of our spuds come from Spain?0 -
Advertisement
-
The 65-75% refered to the cuts in the schemes, proposed by bord snip, in which the irish government participates, i.e Reps etc. The Germans are paying for the major schemes, SFP etcThat is not the point.
How many LUASes could we have built by now with that CAP money?
How many train lines, motorways, infastructure and public works projects could it have paid for?
It's not all German taxpaper money btw, i think you had earlier said it was 65-75% eu money.
But that doesn't make the point about farming being a welfare scheme any less true.
Also we have seen the irish government in action over the last 10 years and how many billions have they wasted. There is absolutley no evidence to suggest that if money from CAP was used to build roads rail whatever that ireland would be 1 bit better off, in fact it would only have contributed further to the ridiculous building boom of the last 10 years.0
Advertisement