Sinn Fein is the NI's richest party

Terrontress

DoireNod wrote: »

As a side note, several politicians in the UK recently came under a lot of fire for taking advantage of their position and basically acting in a fraudulent manner, spending money that wasn't rightfully theirs.

Including Sinn Fein.

I think they should be investigated and if it is proven they have acted illegally they should be pursued with the full powers of the law.

Terrontress

DoireNod wrote: »

And what kind of 'serious criminal behaviour' do you believe Sinn Féin 'condone'?

Murder. Manufacture and international distribution of Class A drugs. Armed robbery. Assault and GBH. Money laundering.

DoireNod

Terrontress wrote: »

Including Sinn Fein.

I think they should be investigated and if it is proven they have acted illegally they should be pursued with the full powers of the law.

The individuals, or the party?

Terrontress wrote: »

Murder. Manufacture and international distribution of Class A drugs. Armed robbery. Assault and GBH. Money laundering.

Wow. Sinn Féin condone these things? How do you know?

FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And yet you somehow manage to support those who shoot Gardai - Gardai who would otherwise be combatting the heroin epidemic and those who traffic in them ?

Interesting anti-crime approach, that.

COCAD was never as pronounced down here in Cork as it was in Dublin, but from what I can recall the Guards were completely apathetic to hard drugs and misery they cause once they were contained in Ireland's sink estates. Of course once the community mobilised on the issue the cops were there in force, harrassing and intimidating anti-drugs activists.

FTA69

Terrontress wrote: »

Yeah, the convictions of James Monaghan, Martin McCauley and Niall Connolly in a Colombian court.

Oh yeah, a farce of a trial in some tinpot Latin American country with the worst human rights records in western hemisphere. Cast iron that. First they were acquitted, then the key witness said he was there "training" with the defendents while Monaghan was actually working in Dublin, then the "forensic" evidence was thrown out and then their acquittal was overturned arbitrarily at the behest of the government. Great craic. Interestingly enough the biggest cocaine traffickers in Colombia are the AUC paramilitaries (with whom the government collude) and elements within the Colombian military (those protecting the fair and impartial state).

Nodin

Terrontress wrote: »

Manufacture and international distribution of Class A drugs.

You've a source for this?

And I still await some more detail on the whole "election management which they employ in the North is carried out by some of the greatest political analysts on Earth" thing.....

mick867

dlofnep wrote: »

Instead of speculating, you'd be better served researching before you try and make assumptions. Poster funds are gathered at a local level, from each local cumann. All activists in each area will fundraise over the course of a long period to ensure that the local branch has visibility come election time.

So - If you are to ask, how? A dedicated grassroots movement, who consistently works hard to fundraise. That's how.

I am confused is that double speak for robbing banks and post offices and running protection rackets-

You wanted proof- your ahem freinds have admitted involvement in various bank robberies and post office jobs-

Police forces both sides of the Irish sea have investigated your ahem freinds for running protection rackets- with success.

So a load of money actually went into the accounts of satans army-

the strange thing is Gadaffy and co said they handed over weapons and explosive free gratis-

prisoners dependents- well collections in illegal drinking dens were arranged and social welfare etc-

so where exactly did the stolen money go-

Sinn Fein NI's wealthiest party

Its being claimed that the MP's and TD's take an average industrial wage- yet I am on an average industrial wage and I cannot afford a holiday home in Donegal-

Cue reply from sympathisers

1- This has been done and dusted- yawn
2- its being a while since we had an anti Sinn Fein rant
3- wheres your proof
4-Shut your mouth or you will get what the others got
5- we are a marxist/socialist party looking out for the proles
6- Fianna Fail did worse than we ever did

Terrontress

DoireNod wrote: »

Wow. Sinn Féin condone these things? How do you know?

Involvement of senior members in the acts. Support for those who carry out the acts.

I am wondering whether you actually believe the Sinn Fein hierarchy are involved in such nefarious activities or whether you are trying to argue black is white for the sake of it.

Nodin

Terrontress wrote: »

I am wondering whether you actually believe the Sinn Fein hierarchy are involved in such nefarious activities or whether you are trying to argue black is white for the sake of it.

I'm wondering if you're going to flesh out and substantiate your earlier claims, or if you're just going to keep throwing out more and more as a smokescreen to compenstate for their lack of substance ....

DoireNod

Terrontress wrote: »

Involvement of senior members in the acts. Support for those who carry out the acts.

Were these senior members all involved in the acts of 'Murder. Manufacture and international distribution of Class A drugs. Armed robbery. Assault and GBH. Money laundering.'? If so, can you provide proof? You'll have to forgive me, I'm not one for whimsically believing what is mere speculation, but if you can provide proof, I'll concede to this point. Also, as I've said, it is well known that some (not all) members of Sinn Féin were involved with militant republicanism at one stage, but that's not to say they committed any of these acts. Are you saying that these senior members were involved in murder, drug trafficking, armed robbery, assault etc. while also members of Sinn Féin and possibly carrying out these deeds in the name of Sinn Féin?

I am wondering whether you actually believe the Sinn Fein hierarchy are involved in such nefarious activities or whether you are trying to argue black is white for the sake of it.

I suppose you'll never know for sure! :P Seriously though, you aren't obliged to answer my questions, but I am entitled to ask them, especially when there may be grounds for disbelief or confusion.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

Are you saying that these senior members were involved in murder, drug trafficking, armed robbery, assault etc. while also members of Sinn Féin and possibly carrying out these deeds in the name of Sinn Féin?

While I'd agree that some of the unsubstantiated posts are OTT without direct proof, wouldn't you agree that having "senior members" visit criminals in jail and collect them from same would make a normal, neutral person query what they viewed as acceptable and what they were involved in ?

If Cowen or Lenihan visited Ray Burke in jail for a photo-op for some twisted "corruption condoners" magazine, and welcomed him when he got out, would you raise an eyebrow ?

Did you question Bertie's morals when he organised a state funeral for the scumbag Haughey ?

Because I did. So before the usual flamers come out, my "lie down with dogs and you wake up with fleas" is NOT the oft-accused "Shinner-bashing"; it's completely consistent.

If SF want to be taken seriously and be viewed as acceptable, they HAVE to stop associating with known criminals and thugs.

Otherwise, people will judge accordingly.

Terrontress

DoireNod wrote: »

Were these senior members all involved in the acts of 'Murder. Manufacture and international distribution of Class A drugs. Armed robbery. Assault and GBH. Money laundering.'? If so, can you provide proof? You'll have to forgive me, I'm not one for whimsically believing what is mere speculation, but if you can provide proof, I'll concede to this point. Also, as I've said, it is well known that some (not all) members of Sinn Féin were involved with militant republicanism at one stage, but that's not to say they committed any of these acts. Are you saying that these senior members were involved in murder, drug trafficking, armed robbery, assault etc. while also members of Sinn Féin and possibly carrying out these deeds in the name of Sinn Féin?

If you'll reread earlier posts, you'll notice that you asked which criminality did Sinn Fein condone and those are the crimes I listed. I did not say that Sinn Fein members were manufacturing drugs or distributing them. I believe though by enabling them to continue doing so must share a large burden of the blame.

Some, not all, senior Sinn Fein members have murdered, maimed, tortured, beaten, robbed as you correctly point out. I believe that to give a mandate to them is to condone such behaviour. Most of those sitting at the top table in Sinn Fein got there by committing some of the most awful acts. And people voting for them in spite of that shows that their electorate must agree with such criminality. But Sinn Fein will never be seen as more than fringe psychos in the 26 counties.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

While I'd agree that some of the unsubstantiated posts are OTT without direct proof, wouldn't you agree that having "senior members" visit criminals in jail and collect them from same would make a normal, neutral person query what they viewed as acceptable and what they were involved in ?

If Cowen or Lenihan visited Ray Burke in jail for a photo-op for some twisted "corruption condoners" magazine, and welcomed him when he got out, would you raise an eyebrow ?

Did you question Bertie's morals when he organised a state funeral for the scumbag Haughey ?

Because I did. So before the usual flamers come out, my "lie down with dogs and you wake up with fleas" is NOT the oft-accused "Shinner-bashing"; it's completely consistent.

If SF want to be taken seriously and be viewed as acceptable, they HAVE to stop associating with known criminals and thugs.

Otherwise, people will judge accordingly.

I understand completely where people are coming from with regard to their condemnation of individuals such as Martin Ferris, but, as I've said in previous threads and discussions, people need to accept that Sinn Féin is still a political party, with credible aspirations and propositions. The actions of individuals will obviously affect public opinion of them and unfortunately whatever party they are associated with, but I am inclined to believe that a party's ability to run affairs as a political entity is not necessarily affected greatly by the personal lives of the party members. No one knows for sure that Martin Ferris meeting these two men was a Sinn Féin decision. He could have arranged it off his own bat for all we know, so I wouldn't be quick to judge Sinn Féin, the party.

I don't know why Martin Ferris met with those two men and I don't claim to, but I can only make an educated guess. Cries of indignation that he and Sinn Féin are sticking the proverbial two fingers up at Irish society and such, appear to me to be unfair assumptions, but I can completely understand them.

If Martin Ferris was kicked out of Sinn Féin today for meeting the two men and 'discrediting' the party, would you still think the same of Sinn Féin?

Liam Byrne

Don't waste your time Terrontress.

When something "good" in the eyes of SF sympathisers happens, they'll take the credit.

When something "bad" happens to them, they'll scream victimisation and blue murder, and corruption and dodgy policies to the highest level of the British Authorities or whoever.

When something "bad" is done BY one of them, it's an "accident", or "a breakway group" or "unauthorised", or "a member doing it off his own bat".

The day they apply a consistent logic to either (e.g. a British soldier shooting on Bloody Sunday "off his own bat, unauthorised", OR a policy by SF/IRA to cover up a bombing or murder or robbery gone wrong) is the day we'll have made progress.

I don't personally CARE which of the two approaches they take - benefit-of-the-doubt for both, or concerted policy for both; that's their call and they're entitled to their opinion. But for me to take them seriously, they need to take one OR the other.

If a British MP for the DUP or whoever visited a thug in jail, they'd go "LOOOOOK - we TOLD you; they're all in it together"

But when Ferris does it, he's doing it as an "individual", and it's supposed to be acceptable.

Until SF and their followers spot how pathetic this inconsistency is, and how two-faced it seems to the neutral observer, they'll never make progress.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

No one knows for sure that Martin Ferris meeting these two men was a Sinn Féin decision. He could have arranged it off his own bat for all we know, so I wouldn't be quick to judge Sinn Féin, the party.

I would doubt it, but I'd be able to accept it if you or SF could apply the same logic to things that "the Brits" do.

But remember, Ferris might be an individual, but he's the third individual who has taken an unacceptable stance on this issue; Adams spouted crap in his speech - why would a party leader care or comment about the release of 2 criminals who had served their time, anyway ? - about "qualifying under the GFA", and Ferris Jr had refused to condemn the murder.

So again, it's difficult to take Ferris Snr's actions in isolation; and for very factual and logical reasons - no agenda or bias.

DoireNod wrote: »

I don't know why Martin Ferris met with those two men and I don't claim to, but I can only make an educated guess.

So enlighten us with this guess.

DoireNod wrote: »

Cries of indignation that he and Sinn Féin are sticking the proverbial two fingers up at Irish society and such, appear to me to be unfair assumptions, but I can completely understand them.

And they appear to me to be perfectly logical assumptions.

DoireNod wrote: »

If Martin Ferris was kicked out of Sinn Féin today for meeting the two men and 'discrediting' the party, would you still think the same of Sinn Féin?

Personally, I'd feel they'd made some progress.

And I'll reiterate; this is 100% pure consistency and fairness on my part. If FF had kicked out Bertie or Quinn for their actions discrediting the party, I'd still be dubious about them but I'd feel they'd made progress in taking a stand that reflected the will of the public and the ethics and standards that we require from an elected representative.

DoireNod

Terrontress wrote: »

If you'll reread earlier posts, you'll notice that you asked which criminality did Sinn Fein condone and those are the crimes I listed. I did not say that Sinn Fein members were manufacturing drugs or distributing them.

Yes you did. I asked you how you knew these things and you claimed that senior members of Sinn Féin were involved in the acts, so you'll have to forgive my curiosity at how you knew this:

Originally posted by Terrontress
Involvement of senior members in the acts. Support for those who carry out the acts.

Some, not all, senior Sinn Fein members have murdered, maimed, tortured, beaten, robbed as you correctly point out.

I never said that. I did say that some were known to have been involved in militant republicanism, but I also said that it does not necessarily mean that they committed the acts that you claim they have. I don't know for sure if senior members of Sinn Féin have murdered, maimed, tortured or robbed and would not want to claim that they did based on no evidence. That's libellous or slanderous isn't it?

Most of those sitting at the top table in Sinn Fein got there by committing some of the most awful acts. And people voting for them in spite of that shows that their electorate must agree with such criminality.

Do you know this for sure though? And your comment about the electorate is untrue and unfair I believe. Some people don't believe what you believe - maybe they don't hold suspicious views that those in Sinn Féin are criminals and maybe they vote for Sinn Féin based on their proposals and precedent? To say that everyone who votes for Sinn Féin agrees with the criminality you describe is unfounded.

But Sinn Fein will never be seen as more than fringe psychos in the 26 counties.

You never know. I wouldn't rule anything out.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

And your comment about the electorate is untrue and unfair I believe.

Kettle, pot there DoireNod.

You didn't give the electorate much credit for voting for the GFA.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Kettle, pot there DoireNod.

You didn't give the electorate much credit for voting for the GFA.

I didn't slate the electorate. I slated the Governments - I clarified what I meant in the other thread. In any case, I was responding to Terrontress's comment that those who vote for Sinn Féin must agree with criminality. I think it's unfair to say that everyone who votes for Sinn Féin must agree with criminality. Don't you?

Terrontress

DoireNod wrote: »

Do you know this for sure though?

No, I know very little for sure. Neither do you.

And, to be honest, crime and criminality is in itself simply legal definitions. I can say that the shooting dead of a Garda as part of a bank robbery is murder. The courts say it is manslaughter. It is still the same act of shooting someone in cold blood.

I am not repulsed at murders and assaults by Sinn Fein members. It is the killings, maimings and beatings.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

I think it's unfair to say that everyone who votes for Sinn Féin must agree with criminality. Don't you?

Possibly. But they're definitely able to turn a blind eye to it, and instead of objecting when the SF leaders seem to condone it, they try to defend it.

So - AS A RESULT - it's perfectly fair to question their views on it.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But remember, Ferris might be an individual, but he's the third individual who has taken an unacceptable stance on this issue; Adams spouted crap in his speech - why would a party leader care or comment about the release of 2 criminals who had served their time, anyway ? - about "qualifying under the GFA", and Ferris Jr had refused to condemn the murder.

So again, it's difficult to take Ferris Snr's actions in isolation; and for very factual and logical reasons - no agenda or bias.

That's reasonable. Perhaps the party leader feels it is his duty to the republican movement to comment on the release of two IRA prisoners (although you'd be better to ask Adams why) - to make it known that they 'regret' their actions. While I can understand the outrage that people have on this issue, I'm actually surprised at some of the comments of many posters. Who's to say these men haven't actually 'reformed'?

So enlighten us with this guess.

I have a number of guesses as to why Ferris met these men, but I'd rather not postulate it in the public arena as some others have, when it is really just mere speculation. I'd rather see what Ferris himself and others related to the issue have to say.

And they appear to me to be perfectly logical assumptions.

You think it's logical to assume that, since Martin Ferris the individual, meets two convicted criminals who may also be friends of his, Sinn Féin the political party is sticking the proverbial two fingers up at Irish society? Why?

Terrontress wrote: »

No, I know very little for sure. Neither do you.

I never claimed to know anything for sure.

And, to be honest, crime and criminality is in itself simply legal definitions. I can say that the shooting dead of a Garda as part of a bank robbery is murder. The courts say it is manslaughter. It is still the same act of shooting someone in cold blood.

Fair point. In a 'democracy' however, such as that that exists in Ireland, the courts are representative of the law which you effectively vote for.

I am not repulsed at murders and assaults by Sinn Fein members. It is the killings, maimings and beatings.

These are the same things, no? Why are you repulsed at something that you aren't sure really happened?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Possibly. But they're definitely able to turn a blind eye to it, and instead of objecting when the SF leaders seem to condone it, they try to defend it.

So - AS A RESULT - it's perfectly fair to question their views on it.

Not every Sinn Féin supporter accepts what each individual party member claims and not every Sinn Féin supporter turns a blind eye to these events. Yes of course, it's completely fair to question anyone's view on criminality, but it's not fair to label the entire Sinn Féin support as people who agree with criminality. That's utter ignorance.

Anyhow, I think I've helped drag this thread way too much off topic. If either of you, or anyone else on the thread, wish to discuss what I've said with me, please PM me. That is of course, if you think it's even worth discussing with me!

mick867

DoireNod wrote: »

Not every Sinn Féin supporter accepts what each individual party member claims and not every Sinn Féin supporter turns a blind eye to these events. Yes of course, it's completely fair to question anyone's view on criminality, but it's not fair to label the entire Sinn Féin support as people who agree with criminality. That's utter ignorance.

Actually the whole sinn fein organisation is complicit by their silence

in the last 5- 7 years there has never been a motion at the ard comhairle/ ard fheis calling for dismissal from the party for thiose involved in supporting these murderers

and dont forget- adams - O snodaigh- ferris and 1 other visited these criminals-

the stroke fahy lost the FF whip on being convicted yet theese criminal dogs were not even thrown outof your party

in your silence by not condeming- your condoning it

as most decent people who have condenemd it show our abhorance at your party's complicity in this murder of a man who was protecting Irish society.

Anyhow, I think I've helped drag this thread way too much off topic. If either of you, or anyone else on the thread, wish to discuss what I've said with me, please PM me. That is of course, if you think it's even worth discussing with me!

Nice miley face- I know a family in Limerick are not smiling tonight

and why wold anyone want to debate this in private- for to long you and your ilk have operated underground and methaporiphacly beneath rocks

lets debate it openely

I apoligise for my spelling and grammar.

DoireNod

mick867 wrote: »

Actually the whole sinn fein organisation is complicit by their silence

in the last 5- 7 years there has never been a motion at the ard comhairle/ ard fheis calling for dismissal from the party for thiose involved in supporting these murderers

and dont forget- adams - O snodaigh- ferris and 1 other visited these criminals-

the stroke fahy lost the FF whip on being convicted yet theese criminal dogs were not even thrown outof your party

in your silence by not condeming- your condoning it

as most decent people who have condenemd it show our abhorance at your party's complicity in this murder of a man who was protecting Irish society.



Nice miley face- I know a family in Limerick are not smiling tonight

and why wold anyone want to debate this in private- for to long you and your ilk have operated underground and methaporiphacly beneath rocks

lets debate it openely

I apoligise for my spelling and grammar.

You're attacking me personally here. How do you know what my political beliefs are? You don't know me or anything about me, except for what I might write on this forum, which doesn't necessarily have to be an indication of my beliefs. This is an internet forum, for discussion, but this thread is about Sinn Féin being the richest party in the North and I'm not sure the discussion you wish to have has a place in this thread. It should be taken to the thread about the release of the two men.

mick867

DoireNod wrote: »

You're attacking me personally here. How do you know what my political beliefs are? You don't know me or anything about me, except for what I might write on this forum, which doesn't necessarily have to be an indication of my beliefs. This is an internet forum, for discussion, but this thread is about Sinn Féin being the richest party in the North and I'm not sure the discussion you wish to have has a place in this thread. It should be taken to the thread about the release of the two men.

Nobody is attacking you personally- that would be wrong-

I am however pointing out what I perceive are inaccuracies in your posts-

if you dont want these inconsistencies pointed out I suggest you log on to

www.provoslacky.com or www.boohooboohoo.co.uk

Its ironic that a sympathiser or apoligist or whatever you would term yourself is crying that he is being attacked because a big bad speller pointed out some facts.

Irregardless of that - be assured that I am not attacking you- I may play the ball but never the man.

rest easy there P O Neill

DoireNod

mick867 wrote: »

Nobody is attacking you personally- that would be wrong-

Yes you are.

I am however pointing out what I perceive are inaccuracies in your posts-

The key is in the word 'perceive'. That doesn't mean that there are inaccuracies. Maybe your perception is wrong, clouded or ill-informed.

if you dont want these inconsistencies pointed out I suggest you log on to

www.provoslacky.com or www.boohooboohoo.co.uk

And you're funny too! Do you do live shows?

Its ironic that a sympathiser or apoligist or whatever you would term yourself is crying that he is being attacked because a big bad speller pointed out some facts.

What 'facts'? I'm not 'crying' either. You were attacking me in your post with unfounded and false claims that I am in Sinn Féin and that I condone the killing of Garda McCabe. I told you in the previous post that you don't know me, or anything about me or what I think.

Irregardless of that - be assured that I am not attacking you- I may play the ball but never the man.

Oh, I see.

rest easy there P O Neill

Another hilarious one...

mick867

DoireNod wrote: »

Yes
And you're funny too! Do you do live shows?



Another hilarious one...

At last you have posted something accurate and truthful

and yes I am in Vicars street every thursday night