It just doesn't make sense

So while the Government is trying to pass legislation to bail out all the banks and costing us billions, meanwhile the Revenue Commissioners are over in the High Court trying to put about 40 staff of Cork City FC on the dole even though they are only short 200k which money will come through from a game with Celtic in a few weeks. Even the Judge seems to be scratching her head at their intransigence.

The thing that makes me want to climb into a watertower with a high powered rifle is the thought that I'm paying the person in Revenue who has decided that closing businesses is better than raising taxes.

Sometimes, even my faith in the system just falters.

Time Magazine

The banks are necessary for the economic survival of this country, even if this mess is their fault.

Cork City FC are not necessary for the economic survival of this country, even if they did nothing wrong.

Hard to argue with that logic I guess. It's just all so very frustrating.

SteveDon

The Economist wrote: »

The banks are necessary for the economic survival of this country, even if this mess is their fault.

Cork City FC are not necessary for the economic survival of this country, even if they did nothing wrong.

+1

Another thing i dont understand is why people are using the banks as the ultimate scapegoats.

Fair enough they acted unresponsibly, but didnt we act equally as irresponsibly by living beyond our means?

Welcome to capitalism.

Time Magazine

Deleted User wrote: »

It's just all so very frustrating.

It is, but there's a cold logic to it. But thankfully there will be a cold relief in expressing our discontent in the ballot box come the next General Election.

SteveDon wrote: »

Another thing i dont understand is why people are using the banks as the ultimate scapegoats.

Fair enough they acted unresponsibly, but didnt we act equally as irresponsibly by living beyond our means?

Sure, there are a million people who played their part in this. But about fifty developers' mistakes account for the majority of our problems. Had those fifty guys (and the whatever number of bankers who approved their loans) not left them so exposed they threatened to bring the country with them, the country would be in a much better place.

It's about the concentration of blame, I guess.

Joey the lips

Football clubs dont matter!

Bankers vote for the goverment and generally bring everybody else down with them!


The revenue is the tax man! Enough said!

Whats there not to get! I am more worried about the fact that the HSE is still spouting out the same statement to anybody that asks why it has let the pharmacies go on strike!

Goverment seems to be on one track! No one ever said it had to make sense!

SteveDon

The Economist wrote: »

Sure, there are a million people who played their part in this. But about fifty developers' mistakes account for the majority of our problems. Had those fifty guys (and the whatever number of bankers who approved their loans) not left them so exposed they threatened to bring the country with them, the country would be in a much better place.

It's about the concentration of blame, I guess.

I actually heard that a certain developer, cant think of his name now, had a meeting with the group of bank managers that he owed millions too recently.

He entered the meeting in which they were going to figure out how they were going to get their money back.

He has a briefcase full of bananas with him, took them out and handed them each a banana and said you are the monkeys that got us into this situation. Then left without promising them a penny.

I believe it is just as much his fault.

herya

SteveDon wrote: »

Another thing i dont understand is why people are using the banks as the ultimate scapegoats.

Fair enough they acted unresponsibly, but didnt we act equally as irresponsibly by living beyond our means?

Absolutely right, but it's the banks who will be bailed out at a great financial risk to the country not the customers, that's why they get all the bile.

In other words, two were responsible but one takes the beating.

Fulton Crown

Look !

Can we get a few things straight around here ?

I'm no supporter of Fianna Fail - in fact I believe they and their nod and wink politics are at the base of our problems.

But - bailing out the banks....surely it's been explained ad nauseum that NOT to bail them out would have even worse consequences ?

Would put us on par with the lads in Uganda and other banana republics.

So! I believe that greed and competitive pressures amongs the banks / developers and an excess of tosterone in these 70 or so of these developers have put us in this position.

Plus an abject failure in the regularity process...where were the Dept of Finance in all this ..what were they doing and why was no one shouting stop.?

have any heads rolled...except in the banks ...no..an the bankers heads rolled into very cosy and in my opinion obscene settlement positions.

Irish corporate governance --rotten to the core...

FlutterinBantam

Joey the lips wrote: »

Football clubs dont matter!

Bankers vote for the goverment and generally bring everybody else down with them!


The revenue is the tax man! Enough said!

Whats there not to get! I am more worried about the fact that the HSE is still spouting out the same statement to anybody that asks why it has let the pharmacies go on strike!

Goverment seems to be on one track! No one ever said it had to make sense!

What do you mean by "let the pharmacies go on strike" ??

The pharmacies have been screwing the taxpayer for years and the Govt. needs to take action.

Do you actually pay tax?

Are you happy that the HSE shunt your tax money into well paid pharmacies.?

Well, I'm not ,pal, and as a taxpayer I applaud the Govt. for trying to plug a black hole whichch has grown to unmanageable proportions over the last five years.

mikemac

SteveDon wrote: »

I actually heard that a certain developer, cant think of his name now, had a meeting with the group of bank managers that he owed millions too recently.

He entered the meeting in which they were going to figure out how they were going to get their money back.

He has a briefcase full of bananas with him, took them out and handed them each a banana and said you are the monkeys that got us into this situation. Then left without promising them a penny.

I believe it is just as much his fault.

Maybe it happened in the story that you heard.

That story is years old, I heard it a long time ago and a long time before the property market collapsed.
It was always heard it from a friend of a friend story......

galwayrush

Small business here, can't pay ;loans because clients can't pay me because their banks won't release money. now bank wants to foreclose on me, assholes after their **** up's.:( and bailed out with our tax payers money.

vibe666

and the final score is..

Freeloading Bankers 1, Cork City F.C. Nil. :pac:

Sand

The banks are not vital for the economic survival of this country. If the current round of banks were to collapse, the demand for banking services would not. And either new banks would be formed to meet that demand, or international banks would invest to profit from that demand.

The greatest joke of this recent downfall is the banks have convinced Fianna Fail that we need them more than they need us. Dont forget, none of those banks are viable whatsoever without taxpayer cash and guarantees.

Lets face some facts here. Banks are private enterprises. They fail. They die. Some other enterprise takes their place after some short term turmoil.

Now, if it is assumed that we must not let Bank A die, regardless of circumstance, then Bank A is no longer a private enterprise. Quite simply, the current mood seems to be lets socialise the risk, privatise the gain and lets get Irelands banks back to the good old days of ****ing everyone over as soon as possible.

Why exactly do we need these guys again?

FlutterinBantam

Yes they are buddy.

Maybe not to you ,but to oil the wheels of enterprise and support business who employ people like you.

banks are the blood which keeps the body moving pal, don't let your socialist and left wing buddies fool you on that one.

They might be a shower of whankers, but sure as hell they are necessary.

ninty9er

What I'd like to know is how in the name of all that is sacred did Cork City FC run up a €440k tax bill?

Robbo

ninty9er wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how in the name of all that is sacred did Cork City FC run up a €440k tax bill?

Because League of Ireland clubs have a culture of corporate governance that would regard Sean Fitzpatrick as a saint, free of sin?

As a little exercise here, let's postulate that Cork City were turning over maybe €2 million per annum. We shall compare them to the entirely fictional Bank of B'Stard. BoB's specialty in the boom times was selling 120% mortgages to goons who thought that Achill Island was on the Dublin commuter belt. For arguments sake, BoB are turning over €1 billion per annum.

Can you imagine the sheer "tilting-at-windmills" outrage there would be around these parts if BoB dodged a winding up order on foot of an unpaid tax bill of €250 million? It would break the internets.

Boskowski

Fulton Crown wrote: »

politics are at the base of our problems.

But - bailing out the banks....surely it's been explained ad nauseum that NOT to bail them out would have even worse consequences ?

Would put us on par with the lads in Uganda and other banana republics.

Sorry to break it to you, but we already are on a par with Uganda, we officially are a banana republic. Only difference is we are more sophisticated in giving things a nice wrapping so that the presumably democratic public is buying this sh1t.

I'll keep saying this is the biggest scam in history, not only on a national level. I also agree with what is said in a different thread. Not only will it have all the direct financial implications, which are going to burden us for generations, it will also keep an army of lawyers, accountants and whatnots on a handy gravy train for decades (again). But of course all was explained to us 'ad nauseum' therefore all is on good order, isn't it?

Fulton Crown

realcam wrote: »

Sorry to break it to you, but we already are on a par with Uganda, we officially are a banana republic. Only difference is we are more sophisticated in giving things a nice wrapping so that the presumably democratic public is buying this sh1t.

No pal...I don't buy that..Uganda has huge inflation,crumbling infrastructure and a mortality and life expectancy rate very different to a European country.

We are not remotely on par with Uganda.

I'll keep saying this is the biggest scam in history, not only on a national level. I also agree with what is said in a different thread. Not only will it have all the direct financial implications, which are going to burden us for generations, it will also keep an army of lawyers, accountants and whatnots on a handy gravy train for decades (again). But of course all was explained to us 'ad nauseum' therefore all is on good order, isn't it?[/QUOTE

]

Of course it will have financial implications for generations...nobody is disputing that and I take your point re the leeching lawyers / accountants etc...as I said in a previous post .."how the Government get the professionals to take some of the pain will be an acid test"

Don't understand you "all in good order" comment.. I never said that..maybe to make it clearer

We are in a ****hole -agreed

From an International viewpoint the current approach is the best for getting out of theis sh1thole...it will be slow.

All is definately not in order...but hopefully we can climb out....

Fulton Crown

ninty9er wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how in the name of all that is sacred did Cork City FC run up a €440k tax bill?

Because football clubs in Ireland tend to be run by guys who are in the main passionate about the game.

Alpha male types...if you get me ?

They are not detail men ..so little details like paying the bills or settling with the Revenue tend to be...uh..neglected.

All that matters is that they can play the Little Obramovitch role in their little tin pot backwater.

Sure if we get into trouble public opinion will be all on our side against the big bad Revenue boys.

Hmmm?

Seth Brundle

SteveDon wrote: »

Another thing i dont understand is why people are using the banks as the ultimate scapegoats.

Fair enough they acted unresponsibly, but didnt we act equally as irresponsibly by living beyond our means?

I didn't!

vibe666

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Yes they are buddy.

Maybe not to you ,but to oil the wheels of enterprise and support business who employ people like you.

banks are the blood which keeps the body moving pal, don't let your socialist and left wing buddies fool you on that one.

They might be a shower of whankers, but sure as hell they are necessary.

i don't think you're getting what he's trying to say.

YES, the banking system is essential for running a modern society, but individual banks are not. they are a business and good businesses succeed, but ultimately bad businesses fail and are replaced by other businesses.

the majority of the banks in this country are bad businesses and don't deserve to be in business at all, never mind have a choke hold on the irish economy like they do.

cork city f.c. have a tax debt of what amounts to nothing more than a senior bankers bonus and they're being wound up because of it whilst the banks have just f*cked this country and it's people out of BILLIONS of euro and still get a free pass.

Time Magazine

Sand wrote: »

The banks are not vital for the economic survival of this country.

I disagree.

I guess this all depends on your definition of vital, and your level of optimism about what would happen were the banks to fail.

The most pessimistic ****er in the country, Morgan Kelly, also disagrees:

Prof. Morgan Kelly wrote:

Institutions such as AIB and Bank of Ireland fulfil an economically vital role of clearing payments and lending to households and businesses [...but Anglo don't.]

If the current round of banks were to collapse, the demand for banking services would not.

That's precisely the problem.

And either new banks would be formed to meet that demand, or international banks would invest to profit from that demand.

You say that with unflinching faith in the market and assume everything will be all right. Who's to say that there is adequate capital in the international market to come in? Even if there were adequate capital, our bond prices are currently well above other nations', who's to say banks would be willing to take that risk with their precious little capital?

And you're forgetting one thing: the bank guarantee. I'll leave the comment on this to the second most pessimistic bastard in Ireland for this one, Prof. Brian Lucey:

blucey wrote:

Letting banks, any bank, go bankrupt abruptly is not a good idea. A nanosecond later (or on market open) the other banks are sold to zero, the bond and institutional lenders demand repayment, the system siezes up and then the state is holding not a contingent liability but an actual liability of 400b.
Apart from that, its a good idea.

Sand

You say that with unflinching faith in the market and assume everything will be all right. Who's to say that there is adequate capital in the international market to come in? Even if there were adequate capital, our bond prices are currently well above other nations', who's to say banks would be willing to take that risk with their precious little capital?

What would Irelands daily capital needs be against the global daily capital market, even a badly depressed global capital market?

Consider the money poured into these incompetent banks and their fictional balance sheets...could that have been better spent forming a "good bank"

And you're forgetting one thing: the bank guarantee.

Prof Lucey is entirely correct if you assume the bank guarantee as implemented by the Irish government, funded by the Irish taxpayer, is some inescapable natural event.

It can be retracted, it can be adjusted. It seems strange to me that large depositors ( who you might assume are competent enough with their money if they have 100,000 euro to deposit) would get a blanket guarantee. It seems bizzare that bond holders in Irish banks would get a guarantee when they are investors, not depositors.

Yes, there might be short term turmoil but weighed against decades of NAMA and dismal fiscal conditions, all to protect bank executives and bank bond holders - to return as quickly as possible to a situation where banks are in private hands and take on immense risk, safe in the knowledge that they are "too big to fail" and so will certainly be bailed out by the taxpayer?

Is that the optimal result? Back to business as usual until the next crisis?

Gurgle

ninty9er wrote: »

What I'd like to know is how in the name of all that is sacred did Cork City FC run up a €440k tax bill?

I'm wondering the same myself.
This is a tax bill they're talking about, not a total operating losses > total assets situation.

The club is (presumably) set up as a limited company.
They should have been paying:

PAYE on employees wages - paid monthly, precluding the possibility of running up such a bill.

VAT on sales - paid bi-monthly, so this can't be it either.

Corporation tax on profits - paid annually, at 12.5% (IIRC) of the profits for the year.

Therefore they either:
- Made a profit in the region of 3.5 million, so where is it?
- Didn't pay taxes when they were due, in which case the directors broke the law and so are personally liable for the money due.

Time Magazine

Sand wrote: »

What would Irelands daily capital needs be against the global daily capital market, even a badly depressed global capital market?

Consider the money poured into these incompetent banks and their fictional balance sheets...could that have been better spent forming a "good bank"

Smarter men than us have concluded otherwise. I've linked already to pretty much all of the country's top monetary economics and financial professionals saying it can't happen. What more do you want?

Prof Lucey is entirely correct if you assume the bank guarantee as implemented by the Irish government, funded by the Irish taxpayer, is some inescapable natural event.

And the moment we change it there is a huge risk of a bank run.

It can be retracted, it can be adjusted. It seems strange to me that large depositors ( who you might assume are competent enough with their money if they have 100,000 euro to deposit) would get a blanket guarantee. It seems bizzare that bond holders in Irish banks would get a guarantee when they are investors, not depositors.

Few argue that the bank guarantee was done right. The bondholders should take a hit, but that's nowhere near saying the banks are non-vital.

Yes, there might be short term turmoil but weighed against decades of NAMA and dismal fiscal conditions

"Short term turmoil"? You talk as if a country that shuts down because it can't get credit can suddenly get going again with the flick of a switch. This isn't true. NAMA is being done badly, this is no surprise to anyone. But that does not imply that the banks are a vital organ.

Is that the optimal result? Back to business as usual until the next crisis?

The optimal result from my perspective is temporary nationalisation followed by more rigorous regulation thereafter. Do you suggest that a new bank, with a dearth of experience, is somehow immune to the disasters that the old hands made?

Those who really know about this disagree with you.

dresden8

SteveDon wrote: »

but didnt we act equally as irresponsibly by living beyond our means?

What's this "we" sh1t paleface?

Red Sleeping Beauty

There's one law for the rich and one law for everyone else. Contrast Liam Carroll's support from the courts with the treatment of the Thomas Cook workers.