Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

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Mr Alan wrote: »

that doesn't make it right or acceptable,

I know

Mr Alan wrote: »

especially when we're still expected to overtake the side that has dominated English football for the last 2 decades spending huge money to get into that position & maintain it.

Spending huge money?

The exact same thing is happening to them as is happening to you lot.

Eighty million pounds has disappeared in manchester ffs

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

that doesn't make it right or acceptable, especially when we're still expected to overtake the side that has dominated English football for the last 2 decades spending huge money to get into that position & maintain it.

That's just simply not true, there is very little difference in the spending of both clubs.

Karmafaerie

Des wrote: »

Spending huge money?

The exact same thing is happening to them as is happening to you lot.

Eighty million pounds has disappeared in manchester ffs

Ahhhm

Mr Alan wrote:

for the last 2 decades spending huge money to get into that position & maintain it.

You did read the part about the last two decades, and how they got to the position they're in right?
Alan said they have spent massive money for 20 years, not this year.

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

Spending huge money?

The exact same thing is happening to them as is happening to you lot.

Eighty million pounds has disappeared in manchester ffs

Yeah but Fergie can spend that if he wants by all accounts.

The Muppet wrote: »

That's just simply not true, there is very little difference in the spending of both clubs.

True, but how are Liverpool expected to overtake them? Rafa started with a far worse squad than United and Chelsea 5 years ago and has spent similar amounts to Ferguson and less than Chelsea.

kippy

Mr Alan wrote: »

that doesn't make it right or acceptable, especially when we're still expected to overtake the side that has dominated English football for the last 2 decades spending huge money to get into that position & maintain it.

Its about "consumers" spending money going to games, buying the mercendise, paying the inflated television costs, spending money on supporting the club, not overtaking the side the dominated English Football for 20 years.

These particular set of owners seem to want to take a hell of a lot more than they put into the club, but you'll see that happen at a lot of the American owned clubs. Even at United whose net spend over the past few years hasnt Actually been that high. Same at Villa.....
It is ALL about the money and investment to them. At least now people are begining to see that.

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Karmafaerie wrote: »

You did read the part about the last two decades, and how they got to the position they're in right?
Alan said they have spent massive money for 20 years, not this year.

But that isn't true.

Since the Glazers took over (5 years?) there has been an extremely strict budget at Old Trafford.

And yes, they spent big, no question, but they were always profitable so it's not as if they were pissing money away and going bust looking for success.

They spent money they were earning.

Karmafaerie

The Muppet wrote: »

That's just simply not true, there is very little difference in the spending of both clubs.

We have two players taht cost more than £20,000,000 ever.
One of whom left a few months later for most of the money back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only players we ever bought that cost more than £10,000,000 would be Alonso, Cisse, Stan, Aquaman, Keane, and Torres.
(Could be wrong on that, just off the top of my head).

Rooney, Rio, and Berbatov alone dwarf that.

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whatawaster wrote: »

Yeah but Fergie can spend that if he wants by all accounts.

lol - and you've still got people here saying that this stuff in the papers about Rafa is only having 2m to spend is a smokescreen.

In my opinion, these American owners are going to ruin two truly great clubs.

Chelsea/Man City will overtake them in the long run if the Americans don't get out.

Karmafaerie

Des wrote: »

But that isn't true.

Since the Glazers took over (5 years?) there has been an extremely strict budget at Old Trafford.

And yes, they spent big, no question, but they were always profitable so it's not as if they were pissing money away and going bust looking for success.

They spent money they were earning.

But we're not saying that they're pissing money away, or spending money what they're not earning.
Simply that they have spent more over the last 20 years to create a dynasty that Rafa is supposed to overthrow on a budget consisting of some buttons and pocket lint!

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

lol - and you've still got people here saying that this stuff in the papers about Rafa is only having 2m to spend is a smokescreen.

In my opinion, these American owners are going to ruin two truly great clubs.

Chelsea/Man City will overtake them in the long run if the Americans don't get out.

Has Fergie himself not said he just hasn’t seen the value he wants in the transfer window?
I’m sure he won’t get the full 80m but I don’t think he ever thought he would

wcarey1975

Karmafaerie wrote: »

We have two players taht cost more than £20,000,000 ever.
One of whom left a few months later for most of the money back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only players we ever bought that cost more than £10,000,000 would be Alonso, Cisse, Stan, Aquaman, Keane, and Torres.
(Could be wrong on that, just off the top of my head).

Rooney, Rio, and Berbatov alone dwarf that.

Glen Johnson also

Handsome Bob

Karmafaerie wrote: »

TB doesn't write for rags.

He said it too? ****.

Hopefully someone just leaked the right amount of info to TB that would get the fans in uproar and as a result, put the owners under pressure to release more funds.

whatawaster wrote: »

Yeah a little bit of me is still hoping that this is all a smokescreen – clever media tactics.

But to be honest I think what Rafa wanted most in those negotiations was more control over transfer policy rather than specific amounts. As well as more influence in the academy

Back when Rafa won the battle the media were generally reporting that Rafa would be given £20m/£30m to spend plus whatever he made on transfers. If that's the case then the owners are screwing him and I would be sorely disappointed with that because I would have expected Rafa to make the contract he signed unbreakable.

Karmafaerie

wcarey1975 wrote: »

Glen Johnson also

Ha!

Too early in the morning for me!:P

wcarey1975

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Ha!

Too early in the morning for me!:P

Okay having a real brain [EMAIL="f@rt"]f@rt[/EMAIL] this morning and cant place Stan ?

Nevermind as soon as I posted I remembered!!!

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whatawaster wrote: »

Has Fergie himself not said he just hasn’t seen the value he wants in the transfer window?

Hmmm.

Do you believe everything he says, or just things that suit you to believe?

whatawaster wrote: »

I’m sure he won’t get the full 80m but I don’t think he ever thought he would

It was plainly obvious that the full 80m wouldn't be spent on players. In fact, if you include the "promised" ~20m the american owners said they'd spend every summer, then what, 35% of the "available" money was spent. That means 65m has vanished.

whatawaster

Des wrote: »

Hmmm.

Do you believe everything he says, or just things that suit you to believe?

It was plainly obvious that the full 80m wouldn't be spent on players. In fact, if you include the "promised" ~20m the american owners said they'd spend every summer, then what, 35% of the "available" money was spent. That means 65m has vanished.

I’m not 100% on this but didn’t they make a bid of 25m or something for Benzema? They made a bid for Tevez. So there is some money there.

PiE

Des wrote: »

Hmmm.
Do you believe everything he says, or just things that suit you to believe?

Why would he lie about that? Do you think he likes having all his transfer targets suddenly go up by £10m?

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whatawaster wrote: »

I’m not 100% on this but didn’t they make a bid of 25m or something for Benzema? They made a bid for Tevez. So there is some money there.

They made a half-hearted bid for Tevez when it was obvious he was leaving. That was money they knew they'd never have to spend.

Also, I'm sure the money could have been found for Benzema, but again, they knew Madrid would make a play, and there would be only one winner.

purple_hatstand

Karmafaerie wrote: »

We have two players taht cost more than £20,000,000 ever.
One of whom left a few months later for most of the money back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only players we ever bought that cost more than £10,000,000 would be Alonso, Cisse, Stan, Aquaman, Keane, and Torres.
(Could be wrong on that, just off the top of my head).

Rooney, Rio, and Berbatov alone dwarf that.

Babel?
Mascherano?

(It's a little early in the morning for me, too...)

5starpool

Karma, you're definitely missing Masch from that list, and didn't Heskey cost 11m too? Much to my disbelief and horror at the time, of course. Oh ya, and Babel too of course.

Boggles

LZ5by5 wrote: »

He said it too? ****.

Hopefully someone just leaked the right amount of info to TB that would get the fans in uproar and as a result, put the owners under pressure to release more funds.



Back when Rafa won the battle the media were generally reporting that Rafa would be given £20m/£30m to spend plus whatever he made on transfers. If that's the case then the owners are screwing him and I would be sorely disappointed with that because I would have expected Rafa to make the contract he signed unbreakable.

Rafa works for the Yanks, and gets paid handsomely to do so.

He can demand certain things, unbreakable contracts, I doubt it!!!

At the end of the day he is an employee, I have worked for Americans in the past and believe me the last thing you do is make demands!

Klinsmann in by next June!

Karmafaerie

I need some coffee.
My memory isn't what it...................something.

Handsome Bob

Boggles wrote: »

Rafa works for the Yanks, and gets paid handsomely to do so.

He can demand certain things, unbreakable contracts, I doubt it!!!

At the end of the day he is an employee, I have worked for Americans in the past and believe me the last thing you do is make demands!

Klinsmann in by next June!

Okay, so what was the point of the contract saga last season? For something that went on for so long and which sometimes even looked like Rafa could walk, I highly doubt that Rafa would have put pen to paper if the Americans could go back on any promises. Even the dumbest **** (never mind Rafa) could have forseen these guys pulling a fast one if the contract allowed them to.

noodler

whatawaster wrote: »

I’m not 100% on this but didn’t they make a bid of 25m or something for Benzema? They made a bid for Tevez. So there is some money there.

I think they also made an outrageous bid for Torres too but Rafa hadn't much to say about that apart from:

Boggles

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Okay, so what was the point of the contract saga last season? For something that went on for so long and which sometimes even looked like Rafa could walk, I highly doubt that Rafa would have put pen to paper if the Americans could go back on any promises. Even the dumbest **** (never mind Rafa) could have forseen these guys pulling a fast one if the contract allowed them to.

The current economic climate excuse has been golden for every other company in the world.

I'm sure the Yanks are bleating it out aswell.

Spiritoftheseventies

Mr Alan wrote: »

that doesn't make it right or acceptable, especially when we're still expected to overtake the side that has dominated English football for the last 2 decades spending huge money to get into that position & maintain it.

I think what was shown this summer is that if Fergie doesnt feel there is a player that he feels wont strengthen his squad he will hold off.
Rafa particularly in early part of his career simply bought too many average players and without really thinking about it. I have still to see Babel do it consistently for us this year and Voronin while a trier is just to predictable.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

Rafa started with a far worse squad than United and Chelsea 5 years ago and has spent similar amounts to Ferguson and less than Chelsea.

That really is debatebale. obviously that debate is not for this thread but United had a pretty poor squad in 2005 , Liverpool won the Champions League.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

We have two players taht cost more than £20,000,000 ever.
One of whom left a few months later for most of the money back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only players we ever bought that cost more than £10,000,000 would be Alonso, Cisse, Stan, Aquaman, Keane, and Torres.
(Could be wrong on that, just off the top of my head).

Rooney, Rio, and Berbatov alone dwarf that.

The money actually spent by both clubs is pretty even its just that Liverpool have purchased a lot more players, 52 compared to utd's 24 in the same period.

5starpool wrote: »

Karma, you're definitely missing Masch from that list, and didn't Heskey cost 11m too? Much to my disbelief and horror at the time, of course. Oh ya, and Babel too of course.

Don't forget Diouf @ £11 million

noodler

Prety sure Alonso cost 10.5m? If that even matters now.

Handsome Bob

Didn't the Babler cost £11.5m?

Cyrus

The Muppet wrote: »

That really is debatebale. obviously that debate is not for this thread but United had a pretty poor squad in 2005 , Liverpool won the Champions League.

how many of uniteds 2005 squad is still there?

gerrard and carra survived as liverpool squad members, no one else

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

That really is debatebale. obviously that debate is not for this thread but United had a pretty poor squad in 2005 , Liverpool won the Champions League.


The money actually spent by both clubs is pretty even its just that Liverpool have purchased a lot more players, 52 compared to utd's 24 in the same period.

They weren’t as strong as now but had been consistently spending big (though within their considerable means) for years – Ronaldo, Ferdinand and Rooney cost over 70m between the 3 of them.
Chelsea were also very strong at the time and continued to spend big.
Liverpool’s squad that won the CL has Biscan, Diao, Traore, Welsh, Mellor, Le Tallec, Josemi, Nunez, Smicer, Baros and Cisse. It was by no means a great or even good team.

kida

the ironic thing is the Liverpool he inherited were more successful, trophy wise, than the team he has built
you could possibly the CL squad had more depth to it than this one if no more signings are made

Spiritoftheseventies

kida wrote: »

the ironic thing is the Liverpool he inherited were more successful, trophy wise, than the team he has built
you could possibly the CL squad had more depth to it than this one if no more signings are made

Yes but Rafa has definitely taken Liverpool further than where it was with Houllier where we won a few minor cups by our standards. With Houllier we were struggling to make the top four, so Rafa definitely has made us stronger in the league.

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

the ironic thing is the Liverpool he inherited were more successful, trophy wise, than the team he has built

Yeah but that team was going backwards or sideways, whereas this team has got better every year.
The Premier League is also vastly more competitive now than it was in Houllier’s day – Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and United are 4 of the 5/6 best teams in Europe. That wasn’t the case back then, and has never been in the history of English football.

prendy

kida wrote: »

the ironic thing is the Liverpool he inherited were more successful, trophy wise, than the team he has built
you could possibly the CL squad had more depth to it than this one if no more signings are made

to date.

no the CL winning squad was weaker. You put aqualani arrelio agger and riera into Saturday's squad and you have something different entirely.

Spiritoftheseventies

prendy wrote: »

to date.

no the CL winning squad was weaker. You put aqualani arrelio agger and riera into Saturday's squad and you have something different entirely.

Yes what is crucial for Liverpool is that the players on the fringe of the starting eleven raise their game. There has to be competition for places. Also looking for Speering to make his name this year. A local lad doing well will be good for the team.

The Muppet

Cyrus wrote: »

how many of uniteds 2005 squad is still there?

gerrard and carra survived as liverpool squad members, no one else

Off the top of my head of the players United purchased only Rio and Rooney are left.

Cyrus

The Muppet wrote: »

Off the top of my head of the players United purchased only Rio and Rooney are left.

where did i specify players purchased?

The Muppet

Cyrus wrote: »

where did i specify players purchased?

You didn't but as we are comparing spending I think it's relevent.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Yeah but that team was going backwards or sideways, whereas this team has got better every year.

Thats simply not true.

1st year: 5th in the League Champions League Winners

2nd year: 3rd in the League Fa Cup Winner

3rd year: 3rd in the League Champions League Finalists.

4th year: 4th in the League

5th year: 2nd in the League

PiE

Boggles wrote: »

Thats simply not true.

1st year: 5th in the League Champions League Winners

2nd year: 3rd in the League Fa Cup Winner

3rd year: 3rd in the League Champions League Finalists.

4th year: 4th in the League

5th year: 2nd in the League

I'm pretty sure you've posted the same thing about 200 times over the years. Do you have it in a Word doc, waiting to be copy&pasted?

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Thats simply not true.

1st year: 5th in the League Champions League Winners

2nd year: 3rd in the League Fa Cup Winner

3rd year: 3rd in the League Champions League Finalists.

4th year: 4th in the League

5th year: 2nd in the League

Apart from the 4th year that’s improvement year on year on paper.
In that 4th season we had a lot of new players coming in, also went on a long CL run, and also Arsenal, Chelsea and United were all very strong that year

kida

PiE wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you've posted the same thing about 200 times over the years. Do you have it in a Word doc, waiting to be copy&pasted?

in fairness to Boggles there if nobody distorted the truth he wouldn't need to post it

PHB

To be honest, comparing what he did every year is kinda silly, because there's no doubt whatsoever that United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal have become stronger teams in the last 4 years. Last year they were at the peak of football. So one might even argue the 2nd in the league last year was more impressive than anything he's done so far.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Apart from the 4th year that’s improvement year on year on paper.
In that 4th season we had a lot of new players coming in, also went on a long CL run, and also Arsenal, Chelsea and United were all very strong that year

On paper the each of the 1st 3 years have been more successful than the last 2.

Cyrus

The Muppet wrote: »

You didn't but as we are comparing spending I think it's relevent.

no we arent comparing spending because comparing spending doesnt make sense when you look at the squad rafa inherited.

Lets make it simple:

He inherited a very limited squad and managed to with the CL with them, so, 4 years on, 2 of that squad remain (8 of uniteds 2005 ECL squad remains)

Further evidence of the strength of the squad he inherited would be shown by the transfer fees receieved for the players in that squad, at a guesstimate united recieved double in transfers in selling a lot less players

jesus_thats_gre

Jesus christ lads, will you give it a break. It has been discussed to death before and neither side is going to change their stance.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

On paper the each of the 1st 3 years have been more successful than the last 2.

But not in the league, which United fans never tire of telling us is the most important judge of a good team
04/05 - 58 points
05/06 - 82 points (out early of CL – more focus on league)
06/07 - 68 points (plus long CL run to final)
07/08 - 76 points (plus long CL run to semi final)
08/09 - 86 points (plus long CL run to quarter final)

If you can’t see the improvements their in the league then there's something wrong with you. The only anomaly is 05/06 we’re we were out of the CL early and didn’t have to rest players at all in the league.

Kingdom

Des wrote: »

They made a half-hearted bid for Tevez when it was obvious he was leaving. That was money they knew they'd never have to spend.

Also, I'm sure the money could have been found for Benzema, but again, they knew Madrid would make a play, and there would be only one winner.

Not often I agree privately with des, but I think he's on the money in this regard. Its very easy to tell the fans you bidded on a player, that you can't afford, or that isn't interested, when there is zero chance of your 'bid' being accepted.

PiE

whatawaster wrote: »

But not in the league, which United fans never tire of telling us is the most important judge of a good team

Even without the league points, most informed Liverpool fans and outside observers will agree that the club is in a much better position to challenge now, than they were in 2005 - and all this despite the American owners and average-at-best backing in the transfer market.