Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

Dr Galen

well your welcome to opinion then. agree to disagree etc.

irishturkey

To a degree its pretty pointless discussing candidates for the job before the world cup due to the futures of the top players still being in doubt. Its all well and good going after Lippi and Hitzfeld but are they going to want a job there without Torres, Mascherano or Gerrard? And are those players going to want to stay if they're told the highlight of the new mans career was a League Cup with Leicester and breaking Rangers stranglehold on teh Scottish title? Or that he managed Inter... 15 years ago.

So I reckon they'll be sounding managers out but I don't see an appointment till after the world cup. Should we keep those players, we should be able to attract a decent manager. If not, then we might as well try and get Alan Curbishley or my old Under 12 manager as anyone else.

Personally I reckon Stevie will leg it to Madrid. Jose likes more experienced players and he's said he wants a box to box midfielder. Gerrard will never be that in the Premiership again but Spain would be ideal.

Mascherano... I love the guy! His commitment on the field is immense and he gives 100% every time. His use of the ball may not always be the best but he has the best of intentions. In saying all that, I'm a bit sick of him trying to engineer moves out. Liverpool rescued him from a mare at West Ham and turned him into one of the worlds best defensive midfielders and this is what we're getting in return. Not good enough! €30m good luck and thanks!

Torres' future is by far and away, the most important thing now. If he goes, which I doubt he will, then I honestly can't see us challenging for top honours for quite a while. Should he stay... who knows? A top manager knows he'll always have a chance with a player of his calibre. Its a matter then of utilising it and servicing it. No sale, no discussion!

The way I see things panning out though... Stevie possibly off to Madrid for €25 to 30m, Masch to Inter or Barca for €30m and we end up with Hodgson. His silence has been deafening, he wants it and is just waiting for the call. He's not the worst guy to have in charge either. People say he only had one good season when guiding Fulham to the Europa League but he also dragged them out of relegation the year before. Fair enough he's no Lippi but any manager that can get Bobby Zamora rumoured for a call up to the world cup can't be bad. Any manager that can get Fulham to beat the teams they beat on the path to the final deserves some respect.

Whatever delay there is will probably see Kenny installed as interim manager but his duties would probably be limited to keeping things ticking over till Hodgson comes in.

I think O Neill has it a little too cushy at Villa to leave. They don't have the squad to break into the top 4 so if he plods along in the top 6 everyones smiling. PLus he wasn't afraid to criticise the money men at Celtic when they wouldn't back him so the yanks wouldn't be in for that kinda behaviour.

Redknapp was never a runner. Already in the Champions league vs taking over a club in the Europa League, a decent if not spectacular transfer kitty every year vs wheeling and dealing his old boys from Pompey... I'd love to know who dreamt this one up!

I'd love to get Hitzfeld or Lippi but moreso Hitzfeld. Lippi would be the typical Italian manager, get a goal and sit on it with ten men behind the ball. Obviously it'd be great to win a league any way at all but I'd love to see Torres and the others being given real license to go and beat teams the way we should be beating them.

A whole lot of speculation but its pretty much all I've thought of lately.

And sausages.

daithijjj

There is no way i want kenny to manage this club for longer than a period of < 6 months.

I was there when he left the first time, that was tough enough (and a damn sight worse than benitez leaving).

I dont think there will be any full time appointment made until new owners are firmly in the door. Lets face it, who in their right mind is gonna sign that deal and who is gonna authorise that contract.

From a personal point of view, hitzfeld would be another complete gamble which we cant afford. I dont give a fiddlers elbow about european success, i am only interested in the league. Hodgson has shown he can handle this league with fulham (and also take them to a euro cup final). Being able to get average players to over achieve is a tougher 'skill' than getting good players to under achieve. He is a man who is well travelled and with it comes a dearth of knowledge surrounding many platforms around the game.

I also wouldnt mind erickson for some of the same reasons. O 'niell is not the man for us imo but i respect him. Wherever he has gone he has brought a period of success or improvement. I also bare no grudges towards his handling of the barry deal, id have done the same myself if barry was the captain of my team (and god only knows what parry was doing regarding that). He has brought on milner/young/agbonlahor to new levels and should be respected for nurturing young players while staying competitive. His squad has played alot of football the last 2 seasons and running out of gas at the end of those 2 seasons was somewhat inevitable.

Also from a personal point of view (albeit, slightly roy of the rovers stuff), id like to see a few old boys back in the 'engine room'. Gary mac or sami given a post as defensive coach or even assistant.

wobblyknees

noodler wrote: »

Daglish for manager is all about sentiment.

I completely agree with this point. There's lots of dewy eyed sentiment floating around about him taking the reigns. I think it has disaster all over it. As he has everything to lose after such a successful period as player and manager.

Splainc

wobblyknees wrote: »

I completely agree with this point. There's lots of dewy eyed sentiment floating around about him taking the reigns. I think it has disaster all over it. As he has everything to lose after such a successful period as player and manager.

He could not handle the pressure when they were winning stuff so, nearly 15 years out of the game, how the hell will he cope with trying to bring a title to Liverpool. The major thing he would have on his side though would be that the "legends" hanging around messing up the running of the club would keep their mouths shut. Ronnie "Mourinho is just lucky" Whelan, failed Southend manager is one such clown who has turned from a hero in my eyes to a fool over the past year or so

dogbert27

daithijjj wrote: »

Hodgson has shown he can handle this league with fulham (and also take them to a euro cup final). Being able to get average players to over achieve is a tougher 'skill' than getting good players to under achieve. He is a man who is well travelled and with it comes a dearth of knowledge surrounding many platforms around the game.

How can you say Hodgson can handle the league? in 2 and a half seasons he has only managed 7 away wins and don't tell me the players he had weren't good. He had 1 away win last season. ONE! And that was the opening game of the season against Portsmouth. People are saying Fulham had a good season. They didn't. They got knocked out in the third round of the Carling Cup. They got to the quarter final of the FA Cup by beating Swindon, Accrington Stanley and Notts County. They had a good european cup run and that was it. On top of that the cup run consisted of drawing or scoring a losing away goal and winning the tie at home or on away goal rules. Don't get me wrong. There home wins were fantastic, especially against Juventus but the sending off of Cannavaro after 27 minutes turned the tied completely in that match. There seems to be a myth about Hodgson that's growing on a daily basis now that I cannot understand.

daithijjj wrote: »

I also wouldnt mind erickson for some of the same reasons. O 'niell is not the man for us imo but i respect him. Wherever he has gone he has brought a period of success or improvement. I also bare no grudges towards his handling of the barry deal, id have done the same myself if barry was the captain of my team (and god only knows what parry was doing regarding that). He has brought on milner/young/agbonlahor to new levels and should be respected for nurturing young players while staying competitive. His squad has played alot of football the last 2 seasons and running out of gas at the end of those 2 seasons was somewhat inevitable..

O'Neill. Another bug bear of mine. There was a post put up a few days back that completes blows the lid on the myth that is O'Neill. O'Neill at Villa has done no better than John Gregory or Dave O'Leary. 11th, 6th,6th, 6th. To me that shows him stagnating, not taking Villa forward and I do hold a grudge against him for the Barry fiasco because it was leaked from Villa that an enquiry was made and I had to listen to this rabid pixie jumping up and down on the beeb during Euro 08 complaining about Liverpool.

daithijjj wrote: »

Also from a personal point of view (albeit, slightly roy of the rovers stuff), id like to see a few old boys back in the 'engine room'. Gary mac or sami given a post as defensive coach or even assistant.

I agree with you here!

Spud83

Splainc wrote: »

He could not handle the pressure when they were winning stuff so, nearly 15 years out of the game, how the hell will he cope with trying to bring a title to Liverpool. The major thing he would have on his side though would be that the "legends" hanging around messing up the running of the club would keep their mouths shut. Ronnie "Mourinho is just lucky" Whelan, failed Southend manager is one such clown who has turned from a hero in my eyes to a fool over the past year or so

Liverpool fans really need to get this out of there head for next year at least. The target next year will be getting back into the CL, even that I would consider a long shot.

monkey9

Jamie Redknapp is gonna be on Newstalk in the next hour or so, i'm sure spreading words of wisdom upon us.

dogbert27

Splainc wrote: »

He could not handle the pressure when they were winning stuff so, nearly 15 years out of the game, how the hell will he cope with trying to bring a title to Liverpool.

A bit disingenuous here. It wasn't the pressure of keeping Liverpool successful. It was the emotional pressure of Hillsbrough that eventually took it's toll on him. The man attended all 96 funerals with his wife.

Splainc wrote: »

The major thing he would have on his side though would be that the "legends" hanging around messing up the running of the club would keep their mouths shut. Ronnie "Mourinho is just lucky" Whelan, failed Southend manager is one such clown who has turned from a hero in my eyes to a fool over the past year or so

You would hope so anyway! I agree with you on Whelan. He's tarnished my memories of him as a Liverpool player with the crap he spouts in the media.

noodler

monkey9 wrote: »

Jamie Redknapp is gonna be on Newstalk in the next hour or so, i'm sure spreading words of wisdom upon us.

I'm just hoping he can tell me where there is a sale on for silver, ball-stangling suits.

dogbert27

noodler wrote: »

I'm just hoping he can tell me where there is a sale on for silver, ball-stangling suits.

He's more than likely going to tell us where we can go on our holidays with Thomas Cook!

Splainc

Spud83 wrote: »

Liverpool fans really need to get this out of there head for next year at least. The target next year will be getting back into the CL, even that I would consider a long shot.

I never said i expect it but that is what the fans and club will want. Be it realistic or not the pressure will still be there.

tinner777

daithijjj wrote: »

Hodgson has shown he can handle this league with fulham (and also take them to a euro cup final). Being able to get average players to over achieve is a tougher 'skill' than getting good players to under achieve. He is a man who is well travelled and with it comes a dearth of knowledge surrounding many platforms around the game.

I don't know what this success is that Roy's had in the last ten years.

2000
FC Copenhagen leage winners

2001
sacked as Udinese manager after 6 months

2002 - 04
sacked as UAE Manager after 5th place in Gulf Cup, took Viking to 9th place.

2005
Viking got to 5th, became Finland manager.

2006 - 2007
failed to qualify for Euro 2008, criticised for dull, defensive football, parted company and took over Fulham.

2007-2008
nearly takes Fulham down after 9 points from first 13 league games, jams 12 from 15 in the run in to survive.

2010
UEFA Cup finalist, 12th in league

I can see why he's in such demand, we better rush before utd take him...

101001

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I can see why he's in such demand, we better rush before utd take him...

whats with the selective list? Not exactly the real picture of roy. ill throw in the other side. im by no means hailing him as the second coming... just dont think your representation is fair

Halmstads

* Swedish football champions (2): 1976, 1979
* Allsvenskan (2): 1976, 1979

Malmö FF

* Swedish football champions (2): 1986, 1988
* Allsvenskan (4): 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989
* Svenska Cupen (2): 1985–86, 1988–89

Copenhagen

* Danish Superliga (1): 2000–01
* Danish Super Cup (1): 2001

Fulham

* LMA Manager of the Year (1): 2010

Cyrus

i agree with some of the posts thus far

hodgson and o'neill have no business at liverpool, o'neill especially, i think hodgson would be the better bet of the two

id give it to kenny on a 12 month basis and see how it goes, he has the respect of everyone, knows what it takes to win things and would be a great interim appointment if nothing else, and he could surprise us all and make the job his permanently

btw, good luck in milan rafa

noodler

tinner777 wrote: »

I don't know what this success is that Roy's had.

2000
FC Copenhagen leage winners

2001
sacked as Udinese manager after 6 months

2002 - 04
sacked as UAE Manager after 5th place in Gulf Cup, took Viking to 9th place.

2005
Viking got to 5th, became Finland manager.

2006 - 2007
failed to qualify for Euro 2008, criticised for dull, defensive football, parted company and took over Fulham.

2008-2009
nearly takes Fulham down after 9 points from first 13 league games, jams 12 from 15 in the run in to survive.

2010
UEFA Cup finalist, 12th in league

I can see why he's in such demand, we better rush before utd take him...

I am not getting into this again but I think there are a couple things in that timeline which you are leaving out.

For a start you have left out 07/08 where he took over a struggling Fulham and kept them in the Premier League.

Also:

tinner777 wrote: »

2008-2009
nearly takes Fulham down after 9 points from first 13 league games, jams 12 from 15 in the run in to survive.

What do you mean nearly got Fulham relegated? They finished 7th that season which was an amazing feat. Perhaps you have confused 08/09 with 07/08?

Theres also a fair bit of Swiss success and experience in Italy with Inter if you want to go back a little further.

We don't think he is the right man for the job, fine, the above really seems to set out to try and paint him in bad light though.

tinner777

101001 wrote: »

whats with the selective list? Not exactly the real picture of roy. ill throw in the other side

Halmstads

* Swedish football champions (2): 1976, 1979
* Allsvenskan (2): 1976, 1979

Malmö FF

* Swedish football champions (2): 1986, 1988
* Allsvenskan (4): 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989
* Svenska Cupen (2): 1985–86, 1988–89

Copenhagen

* Danish Superliga (1): 2000–01
* Danish Super Cup (1): 2001

Fulham

* LMA Manager of the Year (1): 2010

last ten years mate, if you think winning the swedish league makes the list more impressive add it away

yom 1

I come onto this thread most mornings hoping for some positive news about the club. You think I'd be used to the negativeness by now..........:(

Can we close this superthread and open up a sibbling of the 08/09 one........things were at little rosier then!:p

Super-Rush

Has there been any mention of Claudio Ranieri at all?

Splainc

noodler wrote: »

I am not getting into this again but I think there are a couple things in that timeline which you are leaving out.

For a start you have left out 07/08 where he took over a struggling Fulham and kept them in the Premier League.

Also:



What do you mean nearly got Fulham relegated? They finished 7th that season which was an amazing feat. Perhaps you have confused 08/09 with 07/08?

Theres also a fair bit of Swiss success and experience in Italy with Inter if you want to go back a little further.

We don't think he is the right man for the job, fine, the above really seems to set out to try and paint him in bad light though.

Moratti, admitted that letting Roy go was the biggest mistake he made

stumpypeeps

Massimo Moratti became president at Inter in 1995 after a decade of turmoil in which the Italian club went close to meltdown, surviving relegation by a solitary point.

One month into the new season Inter were bottom of the table, and Moratti took drastic action by sacking Luis Suarez as manager and turning to Hodgson.

The Englishman had an immediate impact, dragging them up the table to clinch a place in Europe. The following season, he led Inter to a UEFA Cup final and third place in Serie A.

"Roy Hodgson was an important person in the development of Inter Milan to the point we have reached today,” said Moratti. “He saved us at the right time.
“When he came we were in trouble, and things appeared dark. He didn’t panic, he was calm and made us calm

“Disaster was averted at the most important time. Everyone at Inter will remember him for that and his contribution. He is considered by us all as an important person in our history. He left an endowment to this club that’s important in our history.”

Hodgson worked on a limited budget and initially had few of the star names synonymous with the present-day club – his biggest player was Paul Ince. But he unified a previously fractured squad, and created one of the most fondly remembered sides of that decade.

tinner777

noodler wrote: »

I am not getting into this again but I think there are a couple things in that timeline which you are leaving out.

For a start you have left out 07/08 where he took over a struggling Fulham and kept them in the Premier League.

Also:



What do you mean nearly got Fulham relegated? They finished 7th that season which was an amazing feat. Perhaps you have confused 08/09 with 07/08?

Theres also a fair bit of Swiss success and experience in Italy with Inter if you want to go back a little further.

We don't think he is the right man for the job, fine, the above really seems to set out to try and paint him in bad light though.

Not at all, he is not good enough for us, simple as that, i know i need to get on with my life, but if thats the best we can do after sacking rafa....

101001

tinner777 wrote: »

last ten years mate, if you think winning the swedish league makes the list more impressive add it away

I really don't. i just don't see what you were trying to do by misrepresenting the man. I think he would be a adequate coach

noodler

tinner777 wrote: »

Not at all, he is not good enough for us, simple as that, i know i need to get on with my life, but if thats the best we can do after sacking rafa....

Again, none of the above is the issue.

I am simply pointing out that problems with the basis for your opinion:

1) The list doesn't go back far enough (leaves out winning the Swedish league, getting the Swiss to two major touraments, experience with Inter, getting them to a Uefa cup final etc)

2) The other thing is that you have made mistakes in the timeline you did present.

Thats all, don't think he is the right man either (dunno about not good enough) but the facts need to be represented in a more even-handed manner.

Lando Griffin

Someone who can work wonders on a tight shoestsing and has winning pedegree is the current manager of Birmingham City, Alex McCleash, i would rather him than the Silver Sweed Sven, if ONeill took over would that mean a return for the boy Heskey?

spockety

flahavaj

tinner777 wrote: »

Not at all, he is not good enough for us, simple as that, i know i need to get on with my life, but if thats the best we can do after sacking rafa....

:eek:

Chardee MacDennis

i absolutely realise he is not a very good choice, but he is soo much better than the alternatives so I would take Kenny until the new owners come in.

tinner777

101001 wrote: »

I really don't. i just don't see what you were trying to do by misrepresenting the man. I think he would be a adequate coach

noodler wrote: »

Again, none of the above is the issue.

I am simply pointing out that problems with the basis for your opinion:

1) The list doesn't go back far enough (leaves out winning the Swedish league, getting the Swiss to two major touraments, experience with Inter, getting them to a Uefa cup final etc)

2) The other thing is that you have made mistakes in the timeline you did present.

Thats all, don't think he is the right man either (dunno about not good enough) but the facts need to be represented in a more even-handed manner.

sorry about the date mix up, don't you start with bloody FACTS, that was rafas job. I'm not trying to misrepresent him, I just don't get how he's suddenly good enough to manage us. Whatever the state of the club surely it remains one of the biggest jobs in football. I feel the press are pushing this like they pushed rafa out. Anyhow we'll have to pay compensation for him so we cant afford him.

daithijjj

dogbert27 wrote: »

How can you say Hodgson can handle the league? in 2 and a half seasons he has only managed 7 away wins and don't tell me the players he had weren't good. He had 1 away win last season. ONE! And that was the opening game of the season against Portsmouth. People are saying Fulham had a good season. They didn't. They got knocked out in the third round of the Carling Cup. They got to the quarter final of the FA Cup by beating Swindon, Accrington Stanley and Notts County. They had a good european cup run and that was it. On top of that the cup run consisted of drawing or scoring a losing away goal and winning the tie at home or on away goal rules. Don't get me wrong. There home wins were fantastic, especially against Juventus but the sending off of Cannavaro after 27 minutes turned the tied completely in that match. There seems to be a myth about Hodgson that's growing on a daily basis now that I cannot understand.


O'Neill. Another bug bear of mine. There was a post put up a few days back that completes blows the lid on the myth that is O'Neill. O'Neill at Villa has done no better than John Gregory or Dave O'Leary. 11th, 6th,6th, 6th. To me that shows him stagnating, not taking Villa forward and I do hold a grudge against him for the Barry fiasco because it was leaked from Villa that an enquiry was made and I had to listen to this rabid pixie jumping up and down on the beeb during Euro 08 complaining about Liverpool.


I agree with you here!

If we are going to judge people like you are judging hodgson above then god help us. They were playing 3 games a week for a huge chunk of the season on that squad. And i dont get your problem with o'neill, it wasnt o'neill who leaked about barry, why would he do that?, but hey, dont let that worry you. Who do you suggest be the next full time boss then?, id love to hear it and then dismantle it for no particular reason other than boredom.

By the way, taking fulham to the euro cup final was akin to what robson did for ipswich. He didnt get manager of the year for no reason and was robbed of it the previous season too by moyes. The 'myth' that you seem to think people have is not really a myth.

daithijjj

tinner777 wrote: »

I don't know what this success is that Roy's had in the last ten years.

2000
FC Copenhagen leage winners

2001
sacked as Udinese manager after 6 months

2002 - 04
sacked as UAE Manager after 5th place in Gulf Cup, took Viking to 9th place.

2005
Viking got to 5th, became Finland manager.

2006 - 2007
failed to qualify for Euro 2008, criticised for dull, defensive football, parted company and took over Fulham.

2007-2008
nearly takes Fulham down after 9 points from first 13 league games, jams 12 from 15 in the run in to survive.

2010
UEFA Cup finalist, 12th in league

I can see why he's in such demand, we better rush before utd take him...

As has been pointed out to you, that would be the case for the opposition at trial but sadly leaving out many a detail.

stumpypeeps

I think the two outstanding candidates are Dalglish and Hodgson. The heart says Dalglish, the head Hodgson. Understanding more what he has done at Inter and the parallels we have at Liverpool now perhaps he would be the sensible option.

On Dalglish's behalf, perhaps he'd get more backing, play more attacking football and be a bigger attraction for Torres and Gerrard to stay.

mike65

How can Dalglish be charged with finding a manager if he thinks he's the best man for the job?

Chardee MacDennis

mike65 wrote: »

How can Dalglish be charged with finding a manager if he thinks he's the best man for the job?

i'd heard he wasnt happy with the standard of applicants that were available after putting the short list together, so he suggested himself to the club. i think he has gone about it the right way tbh...

daithijjj

tinner777 wrote: »

sorry about the date mix up, don't you start with bloody FACTS, that was rafas job. I'm not trying to misrepresent him, I just don't get how he's suddenly good enough to manage us. Whatever the state of the club surely it remains one of the biggest jobs in football. I feel the press are pushing this like they pushed rafa out. Anyhow we'll have to pay compensation for him so we cant afford him.

Whats difficult to understand?. He is the current manager of the year and il say it again, he should have won it the previous year also imo.

There is no "suddenly" about it.

mike65

and if they pick Hodgson will KK stay with the club or get the hump? I think he needs saving from himself to be honest.

I see Rafa will be looking to take all the main backroom staff names with him (but not Sammy Lee I'd imagine!) Wonder if the new physio genius is one of them...

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

He'd be a rubbish choice. We've had two tactically minded European coaches in Houllier and Benitez and in fairness we've had success in Europe but none in the League. Given the circumstances, appointing a British coach with a pedigree is worth a shot.

Premiership football is pretty one dimensional. Get the ball attack, Dalglish oversaw the greatest proponents of that in the 87/88 team.

Hitzfeld a rubbish choice?


Nine league titles
Two champions leagues
One Uefa cup
Six domestic cups
2 International cups

Says otherwise.



Plus he has fluent english so would have no problems with the language.


It says something when a manager who twice won the World manager award and is widely regarded as still being one of the best managers on the planet gets called a rubbish choice on here.


He managed Bayern whilst I was still living in Germany, so I saw them on a fairly regular basis. That Bayern team was a dominating force of a team. Yes Hitzfeld is tactically very astute, but his mindset was not to try and figure out each and every coach that he came up against. He set his team out to win, to dominate and generally left it to the other coach to try and figure him out. Smaller teams were genarally attacked hard from the first whistle.

Also he has shown in the past that he can take an ailing club from where it was to a position of strength in a very short time, as he did with Dortmund. He tends to get the best out of players and is an excellent man manager which compliments the tactical side of his game. His teams tend to take on an air of invincibility, much like the teams of Jose in recent years have emulated.


Given the man's experience and knowledge, he is on a tier above Rafa right now, and would be one of a few managers that could be seen as a genuine upgrade on what we had.


Also he has shown in the past that he can take an ailing club from where it was to a position of strength in a very short time, as he did with Dortmund.

stumpypeeps

I doubt it. He's contracted to Liverpool not Benitez.

The club should hold onto him if at all possible. Its no secret the standard of medical treatment in English Football is medieval.

Chardee MacDennis

mike65 wrote: »

and if they pick Hodgson will KK stay with the club or get the hump? I think he needs saving from himself to be honest.

I see Rafa will be looking to take all the main backroom staff names with him (but not Sammy Lee I'd imagine!) Wonder if the new physio genius is one of them...

again from the same rumour, Kenny will leave the club if he isnt chosen (not an ultimatum but he doesnt want the supporters thinking he chose Woy) - think i heard it on IK form someone who got it from RAWK so very dubious stuff....

The Recliner

BastardPrince wrote: »

i'd heard he wasnt happy with the standard of applicants that were available after putting the short list together, so he suggested himself to the club. i think he has gone about it the right way tbh...

If that is what has happened than I agree he is doing the right thing by putting himself forward

If he is not happy with the people being considered than I think he should take over until we have new owners who can make a proper decision on a manager

mike65 wrote: »

I see Rafa will be looking to take all the main backroom staff names with him (but not Sammy Lee I'd imagine!) Wonder if the new physio genius is one of them...

I was wondering about the physio guy too, I had read good things about him so I am hoping he stays, I don't think he is starting his job until after the World Cup anyway

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Hitzfeld a rubbish choice?


Nine league titles
Two champions leagues
One Uefa cup
Six domestic cups
2 International cups

Says otherwise.



Plus he has fluent english so would have no problems with the language.


It says something when a manager who twice won the World manager award and is widely regarded as still being one of the best managers on the planet gets called a rubbish choice on here.


He managed Bayern whilst I was still living in Germany, so I saw them on a fairly regular basis. That Bayern team was a dominating force of a team. Yes Hitzfeld is tactically very astute, but his mindset was not to try and figure out each and every coach that he came up against. He set his team out to win, to dominate and generally left it to the other coach to try and figure him out. Smaller teams were genarally attacked hard from the first whistle.

Also he has shown in the past that he can take an ailing club from where it was to a position of strength in a very short time, as he did with Dortmund. He tends to get the best out of players and is an excellent man manager which compliments the tactical side of his game. His teams tend to take on an air of invincibility, much like the teams of Jose in recent years have emulated.


Given the man's experience and knowledge, he is on a tier above Rafa right now, and would be one of a few managers that could be seen as a genuine upgrade on what we had.


Also he has shown in the past that he can take an ailing club from where it was to a position of strength in a very short time, as he did with Dortmund.

For the circumstances we are currently in, he would not be a sensible choice.

Name one German coach who has managed with success in England, Spain or Italy?

bijapos

So looks like its down to Hodgson, O'Neill, Hitzfeld and Dalglish.

Hodgson I'm not so sure, its a big gamble, can he do it again with a big club? I doubt it.

O'Neill, can be a bit negative in his playing style but i like some of the players he got in at Villa and the fact that he is prepared to look to UK-Irl players instead of abroad for his squad.

Hitzfeld: I lived in Germany for a lot of the 90's and have great admiration for him, fabulous tactician, yes he spent big money in Dortmund and Bayern but he also used what he was given initially and he delivered the goods. Brought Dortmund from UEFA contenders to league Champions for the first time in decades. He had the ability to completley change a teams style in a couple of days, ie defensive on Wednesday away to Juventus and full attack at home on Saturday to a Bundesliga team. Was very big on rotation and the principle that the team is the star not the player and stuck to his system no matter what the press say.


Dalglish: never forget the day I moved the Keegan poster aside for the Kenny one, twas after the final against Brugge, a big decision for an 8 year old at the time. I forgave him long ago for leaving, he did an enormous amount for the Hillsborough families.

But is he the man?

He has been heavily involved with the club the past couple of years and knows how the players tick. He is probably the only one who can keep Masch-Ger-Torres there to ensure stability in what will be a season of turmoil with the sale of the club. Keeping the team together will be the most important thing especially that some of the players will be wooed by their "agents" during and after the WC. The squad is capable of playing good attacking football under the right manager, I think he is the manager for now, if the clubs ownership were more stable I would consider someone else but i think for the next year, matbe two its Dalglish.

EDIT: Now that he has thrown his hat into the ring I don't think the board have a choice really so it looks like it'll be heart over head.

flahavaj

stumpypeeps wrote: »

For the circumstances we are currently in, he would not be a sensible choice.

Name one German coach who has managed with success in England, Spain or Italy?

Stupid argument tbh.

stumpypeeps

flahavaj wrote: »

Stupid argument tbh.

Why?

flahavaj

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Why?

Name a German manager who has done badly in England?

mike65

It feels like this thread got dropped on its head at birth some days.

Is there a shred of evidence to link Hitzfeld with LFC? Nope so why even mention him. If he were being considered he'd have to be the No 1 choice but he's not.

With regard to Hodgson it has to be borne in mind that his job target would be very different to Rafas, it won't be win the league or the European Cup it'll be steady the ship and look to return to the top four. Nothing else really, even a decent Europa League run would be a distant second in the list of things to do.

bijapos

Name one German coach who has managed with success in England, Spain or Italy?

Its like asking 5 or 6 years ago - Name one Portugese manager who has done well in England? - None so therefore there's no point in bringing Mourinho in?

Really is a stupid argument.

Is there a shred of evidence to link Hitzfeld with LFC? Nope so why even mention him. If he were being considered he'd have to be the No 1 choice but he's not.

True but until Hodgson and O'Neill officially throw their hats into the ring everything is speculation.

MementoMori

So pretty much 7 weeks now until our next competitive game and doesn't look like the board have exactly got their skates on in regard to getting a new manager in.

In addition to making the wrong decision regarding getting rid of Rafa, it looks like the board have made an absolute bollox in terms of the whole process of replacing him - the leaks to the press prior to negotiations, not having a clear plan in place as regards what they were going to do if/when Rafa left, and subsequently making a mess of this by appointing someone who was always going to be mentioned as a potential candidate to the selection committee.
The fact that Rafa is in a job with the European and Italian Champions before an approach has even been made to anyone just seems to underscore the ineptness on display here. Overall it doesn't exactly inspire much confidence in their ability to make the right decision.

Seeing as there's so much talk about Roy, I felt it was worth posting this article again. Sounds like a more defensive, more organised version of Rafa with the emphasis strongly on not getting beaten. Really cant see any team ever winning the league with these type of tactics. My hope is that if he did get appointed would be that it would only be a very short-term role as I just can't see new owners coming in and not wanting to appoint their own man to the job. Personally I would have had much more confidence about our ability to get a top four place under Rafa next season as opposed to under any of the mooted alternatives.

The Question: How do Fulham do it?
By adhering to modernist methods and melding disciplined shape with hard work, Fulham have exceeded expectations

There is something endearingly old-fashioned about Fulham, about their ground, about their manager, even about the way they set about winning European ties. Which is not to decry their achievements; rather it is to acknowledge that wherever the tides of tactical evolution take football, certain virtues remain constant.

Watching Fulham beat Shakhtar Donetsk at Craven Cottage earlier this season, you could have been watching almost any game between an English side and an eastern European team from the 70s or 80s, as pluck and organisation eventually overcame technically superior opponents. It was a similar story in their 0-0 draw with Hamburg last week, methodical patient obduracy eventually breaking the will of opponents who, if football were merely a test of skill, would surely have won quite comfortably. Yes, Mark Schwarzer made a couple of useful late saves, but Fulham were never subjected to the sort of onslaught to which, for instance, they subjected Juventus.

Had Bobby Zamora been fully fit, they might even have nicked the away goal they'd managed in Donetsk, Turin and Wolfsburg. In the tale of them training on the hard shoulder after being caught in a traffic jam, there even seemed a nod to Clough-like eccentricity, he having made Peter Shilton train on a Madrid roundabout before the 1980 European Cup final. It's the sort of story that, should Fulham reach the final, will echo through the ages, a quirk of management that will be deemed to have drawn the squad together, as perhaps it did.

As Phil Brown, Roy Keane and others – perhaps even Clough in his later years – have discovered, team-building eccentricity is not an easy trick to pull off, for it requires both a fine judgment of the mood of the squad and that the squad should have absolute faith in their manager. If not, the manager just looks rather silly and the players feel resentful. It's hard not to be reminded of Steve Archibald's comment that team spirit is an illusion brought on by victory when considering the difference in reaction of Hull's players to having their half-time team-talk on the pitch at Eastlands, and Fulham's to running up and down the side of an autobahn.

Hodgson's method

That Fulham's players responded positively, seem even to have regarded it as rather a laugh, is evidence of the esteem in which they hold Hodgson. Given the job he has done, though, that is natural. The narrative arc of his time at Fulham feels like the plot of some unpublished Michael Hardcastle novel, perhaps called something like "Manager", in which one of the kids brings in a friend of his dad who looks a bit like an owl and has done something ill-defined abroad for 30 years. There is widespread suspicion, but gradually the team adapts to his methods, avoid relegation in thrilling circumstances, and two seasons later find themselves on the brink of a European final. Actually, that's pretty much how it sounds when Simon Davies describes it as well. "We're two and a half years down the line now, so we're all converted," he said, hinting that there were doubts about Hodgson's methods at first.

So what is it that Fulham do? The easy answer is that they keep their shape, and certainly that was in evidence against Hamburg, who passed and passed and passed and found navy shirts thwarting their progress wherever they went (a more complete analysis of that game is given here on the excellent zonalmarking website).

But why? Everybody knows that teams who keep their shape are harder to break down; why and how are Fulham better at doing it than other sides? There is, sadly, no easy solution; it's all down to hard work. "We work on it every day," said Davies. "Every day in training is geared towards team shape. I've been working with the manager three seasons now and every day is team shape, and it shows."

A faint smile suggests the work isn't necessarily particularly interesting. "We have a little laugh about it now and again," Davies said, "but when he [Hodgson] came in we were fighting relegation and now we're in the Europa League so you take it. If you're going to play for him you've got to put a shift in and perform, work to a system and be tight defensively."

So what is it exactly that they work on? "I don't want to give any secrets away," Davies said, "but he gets the 11 that he wants and he drills everything in that he wants. We've got the ball – it's never unopposed. It's certain drills defensive, certain drills attacking and we work very hard at it. There's no diagrams, it's just all on the pitch. We do a lot of work after every game on analysis, sorting the bad things out, sorting the good things out. It's nice to know what you work hard on works so well. It's just working on little things now and hoping we can still get better."

Often those who work hardest in such a system go unnoticed, as the likes of Stephane Guivarc'h have found. He was derided by outsiders for his finishing at the 1998 World Cup, but revered by those within the France squad for his work-rate and his intelligent running. According to Davies, Zamora suffered a similar disregard last season, before some high-profile and spectacular goals this season won him the acclaim he deserves.

"Last year playing with him you could see what he brought to the team but only maybe playing could you appreciate that," he said. "The fans obviously look at and judge strikers by goals, and last year he didn't get his fair share, but this year he's absolutely on fire. He shoots all the time and they're going in at the minute. Confidence makes a massive difference.

"Everyone last year was talking about Emile Heskey and what he brings to the team. It was the same with us last year, with [Zamora's] work rate and bringing the midfielders into the game all the time. When you don't have somebody like that you really miss him, and this year he's added goals to it and he's looking a top player. It's just a shame people sometimes overlook that there are other things you look for in a striker than goals."

Second-order complexity

Hodgson's philosophy has remained more or less unchanged since he joined Maidstone as Bobby Houghton's assistant coach in 1971. There they implemented the ideas of Allen Wade, the modernising technical director of the FA, who, in a quite literal way, rewrote the coaching manual. Wade saw no point in drills that weren't specifically related to game play, and so formulated a whole theory of coaching based on specific match situations.


Houghton and Hodgson moved to Sweden, Houghton at Malmo and Hodgson at Halmstad, and it was there that Wade's ideas took root, as Sweden was divided between the modern, English method – which favoured pressing, zonal marking and counter-attacking with direct passes – and the more traditional German school with a libero and man-marking.

As the Swedish academic Tomas Peterson put it, "they threaded together a number of principles, which could be used in a series of combinations and compositions, and moulded them into an organic totality – an indivisible project about how to play football. Every moment of the match was theorised, and placed as an object-lesson for training-teaching, and was looked at in a totality."

Traditionalists, including Lars Arnesson, who had been appointed as a de facto technical director to work alongside Sweden's national manager, called the English approach "dehumanising" and said it turned players into "robots", but it was undeniably effective. They won five out of six league titles between them, while Houghton took Malmo to the 1979 European Cup final, where they were narrowly beaten by Clough's Nottingham Forest. More than that, they changed the mindset of Swedish coaching, inspiring, among others, Tord Grip and Sven-Goran Eriksson.

The football their sides produced may not have been as obviously aesthetically pleasing as what had gone before, but Peterson compares it to listening to Charlie Parker after Glenn Miller or viewing Picasso after classical landscapes. "The change does not just lie in the aesthetic assimilation," he wrote. "The actual organisation of art and music happens on a more advanced level." Naivety is gone, and there is a second order of complexity; football, as other cultural modes had since the dawn of modernism, began to work with an overt knowledge of its workings.

The second leg

The early Swedish critics who condemned the sterility of some of the English school may have had a point. Certainly when two Wadian 4-4-2s meet – as they did in Hamburg last Thursday – the result can be unspectacular, something perhaps exaggerated by the use of inside-out wingers. Their possibilities may be thrilling from an attacking point of view , but when both sides use them cautiously – Davies and Damien Duff for Fulham, Piotr Trochowski and Jonathan Pitroipa for Hamburg – with an absence of attacking full-backs the effect can be stifling. Part of the game-plan of both sides is to compress the effective playing area vertically by playing in three compact bands; inside-out wingers also compress it horizontally, by constantly coming inside.

In fact, if there is a criticism of Fulham this season that it is not explicable by the slenderness of their squad, it is that in defensive mode they seem to struggle to pose any sort of threat. Of the last 12 games in which they've kept clean sheets, seven have finished 0-0, and in only one – against Manchester United — have Fulham scored more than once. In the absence of an away goal for the first time in a knockout European this season, that must be a concern (which is one of the reasons the away goals rule is such an excrescence).

Given the sacking of Bruno Labbadia after Sunday's 5-1 defeat to Hoffenheim and his replacement with Ricardo Moniz, once a skills coach at Tottenham, it is difficult to know how Hamburg will line up on Thursday, although given Labbadia's apparent unpopularity they will presumably be mentally buoyed, but we can be sure that Hodgson will be sticking to the familiar programme, remaining loyal to a mode of play that has served him well for almost four decades.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/27/the-question-fulham-roy-hodgson

stumpypeeps

flahavaj wrote: »

Name a German manager who has done badly in England?

Touche.

In Scotland Bertie Vogts did poorly, Bernd Schuster was poor last time out at Real Madrid. Not too many German managers with a track record of success. Hitzfel aside. And he has never managed outside of a german speaking country.

Anyway, he's not in the running by all accounts.

101001

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Why?

Chelsea shouldnt have brought in ancellotti either