Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

mate, there are so many proven lies and half-truths from that article it's not worth going through them all.

i was almost going to stop reading once he cited Ballague in the column.

then when he said Rafa 'forced Xabi Alonso out'.

then when he said Glen Johnson was in no way a success.

then when he mentioned the '100 players Rafa had signed'.

i'd be forced to take that entire article, and his opinion, with a giant grain of salt thanks.

So where do you get your beliefs from? Do you just pull them out of your posterior?

To be honest mate your ideas are based in some fantasy your living and have little basis in reality.

Dublin_Gunner

Kess73 wrote: »

Fan favourites means nowt, if it did then Rafa would still be manager as I reckon if supporters were given a straight choice at the end of the season of keeping Rafa or keeping Gerrard, then I reckon Rafa would have won it quite handily.

You can be damn sure that Gerrard has MUCH larger fanbase than Rafa.

Go out and talk to fans, not just whats on the net. Whatever you may think, Gerrard is a MUCH bigger influence than Rafa ever was.

Don't bother replying with rhetoric or an argumentative post, because you'll just be plain wrong.

101001

Kess73 wrote: »

Fan favourites means nowt, if it did then Rafa would still be manager as I reckon if supporters were given a straight choice at the end of the season of keeping Rafa or keeping Gerrard, then I reckon Rafa would have won it quite handily.

Rafa is worthless though, on a monetary level... gerrard torres et all they are are commodities. They make millions every year in shirt sales etc. Wasn't Liverpool recently lauded for its successes in the Asian Market. And wasn't Torres claimed to be a big part of this success because of his looks. Peoples awareness of players generates BIG income for the club. Recently Real Madrid Claimed that Ronaldo had actually repaid his transfer fee in shirt sales alone.

The nature of football business means that the players are infintely more vauable than the manager

Kess73

101001 wrote: »

Rafa is worthless though, on a monetary level... gerrard torres et all they are are commodities. They make millions every year in shirt sales etc. Wasn't Liverpool recently lauded for its successes in the Asian Market. And wasn't Torres claimed to be a big part of this success because of his looks. Peoples awareness of players generates BIG income for the club. Recently Real Madrid Claimed that Ronaldo had actually repaid his transfer fee in shirt sales alone.

The nature of football business means that the players are infintely more vauable than the manager

I was only debating the fan favourite bit being a factor or rather a non factor imho.

K-9

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Lets not forget, after all his fighting for control, Benitez is now overseen by four independently operating directors of football at Inter.

He was fourth choice behind Hiddink, Capello and Guardiola.

He earned that at Liverpool.

Not a bad list there, in fairness.

stumpypeeps

K-9 wrote: »

He earned that at Liverpool.

Not a bad list there, in fairness.

Great list, he's still well down it though. And should things not go well, he will beout the door quick sharp. As for a long term future at Inter, harldy likely given he'll have so little control of player signings etc.

event

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

You may have misread my post. Changing manager to 'keep them happy' does far far more than merely keep the two of them happy. Thats the point I was making.

While yes, they may or may not have stated they may wish to leave if there is no managerial change, doing everything within your power to keep Liverpools best players, and fans favourites is paramount.

The effect that allowing Gerrard & Torres to leave would be monumental, with far reaching consequences, even from a financial point of view, and the resale value of the club.

As I said, it goes far deeper than merely keeping them happy.

at the expense of appointing the best manager you could get?

Dublin_Gunner

event wrote: »

at the expense of appointing the best manager you could get?

Gerrard + Torres >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rafa


As much as I like(d) Rafa, its a stupidly easy decision.

G&T not only help us win things on the pitch, provide experience (esp Gerrard), provide idols for the younger players to look up to and learn from, sell MILLIONS in shirt sales, increase the value of the club, the fans WANT them to play every match and they provide much needed international recognition in the far east etc - which once again is hugely profitable.

A manager does none of the above.

If you want to keep fans onside, you have to keep the clubs best players. Managers come and go these days, super players are 1 in a million though.

stumpypeeps

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t00D23R63ig

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

So where do you get your beliefs from? Do you just pull them out of your posterior?

To be honest mate your ideas are based in some fantasy your living and have little basis in reality.

um, since when did this get hostile?

i criticised the article; and so i stated i'd be wary of basing my beliefs on it. it doesn't even tell us close to the full story.

i read as much as i can thanks, be they Tomkins, Maddock, various podcasts from newspapers, views held here and in other forums, mates...and the list goes on. i hope you do the same.

if you think it's all as simple as Maddock is portraying it there, well then, i'm sorry, you need to re-assess who is in fact living in reality.

just because i choose to believe things aren't black and white, doesn't mean my views have little basis in reality. in fact, i'd hazard a guess that you don't know fully what my views actually are, so i don't know how you're making that judgment.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

um, since when did this get hostile?

i criticised the article; and so i stated i'd be wary of basing my beliefs on it. it doesn't even tell us close to the full story.

i read as much as i can thanks, be they Tomkins, Maddock, various podcasts from newspapers, views held here and in other forums, mates...and the list goes on. i hope you do the same.

if you think it's all as simple as Maddock is portraying it there, well then, i'm sorry, you need to re-assess who is in fact living in reality.

just because i choose to believe things aren't black and white, doesn't mean my views have little basis in reality. in fact, i'd hazard a guess that you don't know fully what my views actually are, so i don't know how you're making that judgment.

Fair enough. Watch the youtube clip I posted. Says it all I believe.

event

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Gerrard + Torres >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rafa


As much as I like(d) Rafa, its a stupidly easy decision.

fair enough, im not talking about rafa though, im talking about appointing a lesser manager than one you could get, just to keep them happy

mike65

I'm going to risk looking like a fool (insert witticisms here) and say that we will know the new manager of LFC by Saturday and it will be Roy Hodgson. And no I'm not giving up forum access or donating a kidney to Africa if I'm wrong.

Melion

I miss the Lucas conversations

Dublin_Gunner

event wrote: »

fair enough, im not talking about rafa though, im talking about appointing a lesser manager than one you could get, just to keep them happy

As much as it could be argued either way, I'd rather keep Gerrard and Torres, and I'm pretty sure than would be the view of the majority of Liverpool fans.

Put it this way, here's your choice:

1. Keep Rafa for the duration of his contract. Sell Gerrard & Torres, and try to attract some big name quality players to the club. Lose fans faith. Cause serious discontent with fans.

2. Keep Gerrard & Torres. Relieve Rafa of his duties, and allow him to go to another club. Get in a new manager, who may or may not be as good as Rafa (we won't know for at least a season or 2). Displease some fans - the staunch Rafa supporters.


What would your choice be?

**edit - though I may feel I've now misread your post. Are you referring to the impending appointment of Hodgson?

For one, I don't know who we could afford, and who would be better placed to take over form Rafa. I know plenty of names have been bounced around, but A) would they be interested? and 2) could we afford them?

Noone really knows how much the club can afford on a new manager - I do know we'll be owed money from Inter though.

Kess73

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

You can be damn sure that Gerrard has MUCH larger fanbase than Rafa.

Go out and talk to fans, not just whats on the net. Whatever you may think, Gerrard is a MUCH bigger influence than Rafa ever was.

Don't bother replying with rhetoric or an argumentative post, because you'll just be plain wrong.

Well I can tell you that Rafa was a damn sight more popular around Liverpool last season than Gerrard was. If it had come down to a poll of match going supporters at any home game last season, Gerrard would have lost out to Rafa in popularity. Maybe Gerrard would win out in worldwide numbers when the shirt buying fans who don't go to games get taking into account, but the vocal minority that make up the match going crowd would have gone for Rafa, of that I have no doubt.

As for Gerrard being a bigger influence than Rafa ever was? Are you talking in terms of selling merchandise or something, because it sure as hell was not in terms of the club in any other way.

I would argue that Rafa is the manager that has gotten the most out of Gerrard and as such was a bigger influence on Gerrard and because of that the club gained from Gerrard's performances.

Funny how Gerrard was nowhere near as influential on the pitch for the six years before Rafa came, and the myth of Gerrard having 11 great seasons and one poor one just highlights how myopic many supporters have become, as if many are to be believed poor old Gerrard has being carrying this club single handed for 12 seasons.

Gerrard's best days have come and gone at this stage. Sure he may have flashes from here on, imho, but the idea that the club should be trying to keep him happy and build around him at this point in his career is not even funny.

You can make any arguement you like about Gerrard though, but if you think keeping an aging player happy comes before the right manager for the job, then you are the one that is as wrong as a person can be.

stumpypeeps

Liverpool fans burnt American flags and called for the head of Christian Purslow, the managing director, as shock over Rafael Benítez’s departure turned to anger at the way the club are being run.

About 500 supporters descended on Anfield last night after confirmation that Benítez’s six-year tenure as Liverpool manager had come to an end.

The main targets for their outrage were Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, the co-owners, but Purslow was also the subject of fervent chanting as the divisions that have riven Liverpool in recent years spilt out on to the streets surrounding their ground.

Conflict has been one of the key features of the Benítez era, the Spaniard having fallen out with a string of club executives, each of whom, he believed, had let him down by breaking promises or by being guilty of tardiness in the transfer market.

The cordial joint statement that ended one set of hostilities by bringing Benítez’s time at the helm to a close was significant for so many reasons, not least of which was the fact that it was the first time Benítez and the club’s hierarchy had sung from the same hymn sheet in some considerable time.

It was dated June 3, 2010, but the beginning of the end came on August 24 last year and had Benítez not pulled back from the brink, he would have quit on January 20 this year. What happened yesterday was merely the inevitable conclusion to a season that took manager, players, supporters and the entire club through one of the most turbulent campaigns in their history.

The importance of the events that took place on that evening should not be understated. Liverpool were beaten 3-1 at home by Aston Villa and their obvious shortcomings as a team were laid bare. That defeat in itself was damaging to Benítez because it indicated that he would not be presiding over a second successive title challenge. Words, though, rather than actions had the biggest impact.

In his post-match press conference, Benítez attempted to protect Lucas Leiva, who had scored an own goal and is so often a lightning rod for criticism, but the Spaniard’s defence of one player was to land him in hot water with several others.

“It is up to the senior players to take responsibility,” Benítez said in a very public admonishment that brought about a sudden deterioration in his relationship with a section of the dressing room.

Five months later, Benítez had seen his team knocked out of the Champions League at the group stage, embarrassed in the FA Cup by Reading and left well off the pace in the Barclays Premier League. His lowest ebb came when Tottenham Hotspur visited Anfield in January, his morale having plummeted to such an extent that there were fears within the club that he could quit on the day of a game.

Had it not been a match day, he might have walked out there and then, but the realisation of the disarray that such an abrupt decision would have caused helped to bring him back from the brink. A show of support from the fans leading up to kick-off ensured that thoughts of ending his association with the club he took to Champions League glory in 2005 cooled.

If anything, though, the antipathy between Benítez and the boardroom heated up from then on, as illustrated by a pre-match conversation between a senior Liverpool official and his opposite number from a rival club.

“Do you know why Rafa is playing two holding midfielders?” the Liverpool figure asked. “No,” came the reply. “Because he hasn’t got three,” came the answer.

While Benítez questioned those above him, they in turn had doubts about him, with concerns expressed privately about his man-management and motivational skills, and his record in the transfer market.

Gillett had a favourite phrase for Benítez, describing him as a “serial transactionalist”, in reference to the high turnover of players at Anfield. It was against this backdrop of infighting that Liverpool’s season unravelled as spectacularly as it did.

However, only a fool would believe that the removal of Benítez will cure all Liverpool’s ills: their problems — debt and lack of direction — are far too entrenched for that to happen.

The most important job facing Purslow and his colleagues now is to convince some of Liverpool’s biggest names that a revolution is afoot that will raise the club’s ambitions and improve their fortunes at a stroke — but with no buyer lined up, that will be no easy task.

Fernando Torres is known to be so disenchanted with Liverpool’s decline in fortunes that rival clubs have long since been alerted. It is unlikely that a game of managerial musical chairs will be enough to convince the striker that an upturn is imminent and Steven Gerrard will also be looking for reasons to remain at his boyhood club despite the interest of Real Madrid.

The jungle drums that beat incessantly on Merseyside had suggested that Torres and Gerrard would leave if Benítez remained but the departure of the manager does not guarantee their loyalty. Only the urgent fulfilment of the promises that have been made to them will do that.

In one respect, Benítez has already beaten them to the punch by heading for the escape hatch first. His destination remains unknown but, given his status as a Champions League-winning manager and his standing in European football, he will not be out of work for long, with Inter Milan leading the race for his signature.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article7143794.ece

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Fair enough. Watch the youtube clip I posted. Says it all I believe.

nope, it doesn't.

Gerrard always thinks he knows better.

why does one baffled look mean you've lost the dressing room? it's no better/worse than a player throwing a freak fit, like Ronaldo or Rooney have done in the past. it just means non-agreement with the decision. if you choose to read more into it, so be it. i'm just saying it's not necessarily as 'be all end all' as it seems.

Torres was confused at first, but had an ice-pack on not long after. nobody is unsubbable, especially when they're carrying a dodgy injury. again, it doesn't mean you've 'lost' the senior players.

oh, and he was injured a game later, wasn't playing well in that game, and when N'Gog came on, we got much much better. so Rafa, in hidsight, made much the correct call, even though i lambasted the decision myself at the time.

Dublin_Gunner

Kess73 wrote: »

Well I can tell you that Rafa was a damn sight more popular around Liverpool last season than Gerrard was. If it had come down to a poll of match going supporters at any home game last season, Gerrard would have lost out to Rafa in popularity. Maybe Gerrard would win out in worldwide numbers when the shirt buying fans who don't go to games get taking into account, but the vocal minority that make up the match going crowd would have gone for Rafa, of that I have no doubt.

As for Gerrard being a bigger influence than Rafa ever was? Are you talking in terms of selling merchandise or something, because it sure as hell was not in terms of the club in any other way.

I would argue that Rafa is the manager that has gotten the most out of Gerrard and as such was a bigger influence on Gerrard and because of that the club gained from Gerrard's performances.

Funny how Gerrard was nowhere near as influential on the pitch for the six years before Rafa came, and the myth of Gerrard having 11 great seasons and one poor one just highlights how myopic many supporters have become, as if many are to be believed poor old Gerrard has being carrying this club single handed for 12 seasons.

Gerrard's best days have come and gone at this stage. Sure he may have flashes from here on, imho, but the idea that the club should be trying to keep him happy and build around him at this point in his career is not even funny.

You can make any arguement you like about Gerrard though, but if you think keeping an aging player happy comes before the right manager for the job, then you are the one that is as wrong as a person can be.

Last season maybe yes - I was as pi$$ed off as anyone over a lot of Gerrards performances, but then again, Rafa made some pretty incredible selections and substitutions that I was none to happy with either.

People talk about Gerrard like his career is over - he's only 30 ffs. He's at least 3 seasons left at the top in him as an attacking midfielder / central midfielder.

Honestly, how you can possibly say Rafa was as big an influence to the club as Gerrard was / is, is beyond belief. You're obviously an ardent Rafa fan, or an extreme Gerrard hater over last season, because the vast majority or liverpool fans I talk to would not agree with you in the slightest.

Rafa happened to take over the club when Gerrard was really starting to perform - you're one of those that have been blinded thinking Gerrard coming into form was all to to with Rafa - that's complete BS.

I'm not saying Rafa didn't have any influence, of course he did. But Gerrard as a player, has had a MUCH bigger impact than Rafa as a manager ever had for LFC.

You're gonna stick to your guns on this one, and so am I, so we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one.

Fact is, Gerrard is still there, Rafa is gone. Nothing any of us can do about that.

I for one, will welcome our new overlord.

(check out Wiki lol - the first line in particular)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Hodgson

Apparently he managed Liverpool in 2004-2005...

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

nope, it doesn't.

Gerrard always thinks he knows better.

why does one baffled look mean you've lost the dressing room? it's no better/worse than a player throwing a freak fit, like Ronaldo or Rooney have done in the past. it just means non-agreement with the decision. if you choose to read more into it, so be it. i'm just saying it's not necessarily as 'be all end all' as it seems.

Torres was confused at first, but had an ice-pack on not long after. nobody is unsubbable, especially when they're carrying a dodgy injury. again, it doesn't mean you've 'lost' the senior players.

oh, and he was injured a game later, wasn't playing well in that game, and when N'Gog came on, we got much much better. so Rafa, in hidsight, made much the correct call, even though i lambasted the decision myself at the time.

You clearly believe Rafa had the backing of the players. Fair enough I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

For me, Gerrards reaction, various articles from Journalists I believe have credibility and the FACT we LOST 19 games last season suggest otherwise. I don't believe that squad of players are not good enough to finish higher than seventh.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

You clearly believe Rafa had the backing of the players. Fair enough I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

For me, Gerrards reaction, various articles from Journalists I believe have credibility and the FACT we LOST 19 games last season suggest otherwise. I don't believe that squad of players are not good enough to finish higher than seventh.

Well the simple fact is that squad of players was not good enough to finish higher than seventh last season. Ifs and buts don't come into it after the event.

They got the position their collective performances warranted last season.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Well the simple fact is that squad of players was not good enough to finish higher than seventh last season. Ifs and buts don't come into it after the event.

They got the position their collective performances warranted last season.

Exactly, the reason I believe their performances were so poor was directly related to the lack of belief many of them had in Benitez.

Benayoun is a case in point. One of Liverpools best players last season, continuously left out of the team.

event

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

As much as it could be argued either way, I'd rather keep Gerrard and Torres, and I'm pretty sure than would be the view of the majority of Liverpool fans.

Put it this way, here's your choice:

1. Keep Rafa for the duration of his contract. Sell Gerrard & Torres, and try to attract some big name quality players to the club. Lose fans faith. Cause serious discontent with fans.

2. Keep Gerrard & Torres. Relieve Rafa of his duties, and allow him to go to another club. Get in a new manager, who may or may not be as good as Rafa (we won't know for at least a season or 2). Displease some fans - the staunch Rafa supporters.


What would your choice be?

**edit - though I may feel I've now misread your post. Are you referring to the impending appointment of Hodgson?

For one, I don't know who we could afford, and who would be better placed to take over form Rafa. I know plenty of names have been bounced around, but A) would they be interested? and 2) could we afford them?

Noone really knows how much the club can afford on a new manager - I do know we'll be owed money from Inter though.

i dont really mean hodgson, i took from stumpys post that he would prefer to appoint daglish and keep torres+gerrard, regardless of what manager you could get if it meant losing them.

i find that strange. i think you should look for the best manager that you can get and that finishing as high as you can in the league is the most important thing, considering the torres and gerrard situations. thats just me though

melion wrote:

I miss the Lucas conversations

what exactly can we talk about in here?

we cant talk about lucas, we cant talk about rafa's replacement, we cant talk about rafa himself.

what do you suggest?

raven136

I know my manager is a tool and tonight when i go into work and intentionally not do my job right so as to get rid of him:cool:

tony Barrett suggested that the dressing room was just like every other one,some liked the manager,some didnt and they just got on with it.

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Exactly, the reason I believe their performances were so poor was directly related to the lack of belief many of them had in Benitez.

Benayoun is a case in point. One of Liverpools best players last season, continuously left out of the team.

i'm not defending Rafa to the hilt; far from it.

he was as bad last year as the players.

i don't think it has as much to do with 'belief in Benitez' as you seem to believe though. i think they were all just sh*te personally.

bar Gerrard, they all put a shift in for the cause every week. they just didn't perform. i'd be more likely to agree that we need more high quality players than anything about the team not playing for the manager.

we didn't have the squad to cope with an injured Torres, a half-arsed Stevie, a hefty injury list (Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal's squads admirably coped), and basically no replacement for Alonso.

Kess73

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Last season maybe yes - I was as pi$$ed off as anyone over a lot of Gerrards performances, but then again, Rafa made some pretty incredible selections and substitutions that I was none to happy with either.

People talk about Gerrard like his career is over - he's only 30 ffs. He's at least 3 seasons left at the top in him as an attacking midfielder / central midfielder.

Honestly, how you can possibly say Rafa was as big an influence to the club as Gerrard was / is, is beyond belief. You're obviously an ardent Rafa fan, or an extreme Gerrard hater over last season, because the vast majority or liverpool fans I talk to would not agree with you in the slightest.

Rafa happened to take over the club when Gerrard was really starting to perform - you're one of those that have been blinded thinking Gerrard coming into form was all to to with Rafa - that's complete BS.

I'm not saying Rafa didn't have any influence, of course he did. But Gerrard as a player, has had a MUCH bigger impact than Rafa as a manager ever had for LFC.

You're gonna stick to your guns on this one, and so am I, so we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one.

Fact is, Gerrard is still there, Rafa is gone. Nothing any of us can do about that.

I for one, will welcome our new overlord.

(check out Wiki lol - the first line in particular)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Hodgson

Apparently he managed Liverpool in 2004-2005...

I was one of the guys who has wanted a change of manager for a long time, and have never rated Rafa as highly as many others have, but I also never bought into the myth of Gerrard being some sort of superman at the club. I have been watching the team for too many years to buy into that one.


I have openly being critical of Rafa and Gerrard in this thread, probably more so of Rafa over the last few years.

Will be interesting to see if Gerrard can push on from this season onwards as a top class player for the next three years. Personally I doubt it as I think he peaked three seasons ago and the league challenge of two seasons ago was his swansong in terms of being strong for a season. If he stays for the coming season, I don't think Rafa was the factor in him staying or going in the first place, then I think you may see a better performance from him over the course of the season but nowhere near top class other than a few flashes that has the British and Irish media wetting themselves and throwing out hyperbolic praise with shouts of "world class" and the like.

Am still chuckling at the mention of me being an ardent Rafa fan. Bet Mr Alan will get a laugh at that one when he comes on.

daithijjj

Kess73 wrote: »

Well I can tell you that Rafa was a damn sight more popular around Liverpool last season than Gerrard was. If it had come down to a poll of match going supporters at any home game last season, Gerrard would have lost out to Rafa in popularity. Maybe Gerrard would win out in worldwide numbers when the shirt buying fans who don't go to games get taking into account, but the vocal minority that make up the match going crowd would have gone for Rafa, of that I have no doubt.

As for Gerrard being a bigger influence than Rafa ever was? Are you talking in terms of selling merchandise or something, because it sure as hell was not in terms of the club in any other way.

I would argue that Rafa is the manager that has gotten the most out of Gerrard and as such was a bigger influence on Gerrard and because of that the club gained from Gerrard's performances.

Funny how Gerrard was nowhere near as influential on the pitch for the six years before Rafa came, and the myth of Gerrard having 11 great seasons and one poor one just highlights how myopic many supporters have become, as if many are to be believed poor old Gerrard has being carrying this club single handed for 12 seasons.

Gerrard's best days have come and gone at this stage. Sure he may have flashes from here on, imho, but the idea that the club should be trying to keep him happy and build around him at this point in his career is not even funny.

You can make any arguement you like about Gerrard though, but if you think keeping an aging player happy comes before the right manager for the job, then you are the one that is as wrong as a person can be.

I think torres would leave sharpish if gerrard left. For that reason (and it is my personal opinion) its no contest on who i would rather keep between gerrard and benitez.

Whatever people think of gerrard, it is him and torres being at the club that will attract players of similar calibre. For a man who had such a troubled season by his standards he still finds himself as captain of his country at the world cup.

Its also my personal opinion that many of rafas players, (and they were all his players) had either had enough or were simply not capable. I believe the signing of aquilani was the wrong decision for this squad in terms of reliability also.

Id also like to point out as a match going fan of nearly 30 years that this season was some of the worst muck i had ever seen from a liverpool team and thats hard to match considering i was around for all of the souness era. Something had to give. I was happy enough to see benitez get one more season to prove himself but that was it. However, its the double standards i hate. Gerrard has a bad season and folk are baying for his head, rafa has an equally bad season but folk seem very forgiving. I dont buy this sentiment.

No player is going to come out and say that they had lost faith in their manager, that kinda stuff is left for books and retirement. Sometimes, when a manager leaves and there are not many voicing their anguish, the silence can be deafening.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Exactly, the reason I believe their performances were so poor was directly related to the lack of belief many of them had in Benitez.

Benayoun is a case in point. One of Liverpools best players last season, continuously left out of the team.

So what you are saying is that many of the players were not professional enough to do their best at their job for the course of a season, and in the case of two of them, that playing their best for their local club came second to whether they liked the manager or not?


Well if that is true, then they should be shown the door along with Rafa because who is to say they won't like the new manager and just decide not to bother again next season.

The club is bigger than any manager and is bigger than any player.

the gods only know how players at the so called smaller clubs can go out and give so much effort despite not having the talent that many of the players at bigger clubs have.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

I was one of the guys who has wanted a change of manager for a long time, and have never rated Rafa as highly as many others have, but I also never bought into the myth of Gerrard being some sort of superman at the club. I have been watching the team for too many years to buy into that one.


I have openly being critical of Rafa and Gerrard in this thread, probably more so of Rafa over the last few years.

Will be interesting to see if Gerrard can push on from this season onwards as a top class player for the next three years. Personally I doubt it as I think he peaked three seasons ago and the league challenge of two seasons ago was his swansong in terms of being strong for a season. If he stays for the coming season, I don't think Rafa was the factor in him staying or going in the first place, then I think you may see a better performance from him over the course of the season but nowhere near top class other than a few flashes that has the British and Irish media wetting themselves and throwing out hyperbolic praise with shouts of "world class" and the like.

Am still chuckling at the mention of me being an ardent Rafa fan. Bet Mr Alan will get a laugh at that one when he comes on.

I think you're being a little premature re: Gerrard. Football writer's player of the year just 12 months ago. He's still got a lot left to offer, whether at LFC or not.

101001

daithijjj wrote: »

No player is going to come out and say that they had lost faith in their manager, that kinda stuff is left for books and retirement. Sometimes, when a manager leaves and there are not many voicing their anguish, the silence can be deafening.

I for one am really looking forward to the biographies... Im dying to see how this rafagate (you know its gonna be a headline someday) business was playing out behind the scenes

Dublin_Gunner

Kess73 wrote: »

I was .......

[removed to keep post short]

...... when he comes on.

I certainly didn't want Rafa to go - just yet, and was saddened by his dismissal.

I too have been critical of both, particularly over the past year. It wasn't so much I wanted a change of manager, but a change of tactics. Rafa got stale - I think thats about as simply as it can be put.

There were of course many more factors to consider when thinking of our terrible last season, Rafa getting stale, gerrard and others being pure crap, Torres being a sick note, Aquilani being a sick note (though fit??), etc etc

The mention of you being an ardent Rafa fan merely came from your last few posts TBH.

Maybe you're as much an ardent Rafa fan as I am a Gerrard fan, if you get me.

We could both be talking complete b0ll0cks, or both be right. One thing I know is, we're both highly pi$$ed off at the situation at the club at the minute.

All we can hope for, is that whoever is brought in as manager, can help give a new spark to the club, and get the players motivated again.

We know there's going to be little or no investment in the squad, so we can just take solace in the fact thats its 99% the same squad that finished 2nd the season before last, and we have at least 1 addition of quality (Aquilani - still to be totally proven however).

We can be hopeful, that with a change of tactic, and we can keep our best players fit, that we at least will be challenging for CL.

One thing we drastically need from next season though, is a trophy of some description. If we can even get the bloomin' League Cup, or at a stretch the Europa League, at least it will show signs of hope, and get everyone behind the club again.

And for me, I believe that will be 80% down to the players, and a good solid 20% from the manager.

Melion

Kess73 wrote: »

So what you are saying is that many of the players were not professional enough to do their best at their job for the course of a season, and in the case of two of them, that playing their best for their local club came second to whether they liked the manager or not?


Well if that is true, then they should be shown the door along with Rafa because who is to say they won't like the new manager and just decide not to bother again next season.

The club is bigger than any manager and is bigger than any player.

the gods only know how players at the so called smaller clubs can go out and give so much effort despite not having the talent that many of the players at bigger clubs have.

Have to agree here. Its a joke that just because Gerrard didnt get on with Rafa that he decided to not to bother last season. If that does end up being the truth then id have no problem with him being sold. That goes for all the other players, Torres included.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

we didn't have the squad to cope with an injured Torres, a half-arsed Stevie, a hefty injury list (Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal's squads admirably coped), and basically no replacement for Alonso.

All failures on the managers part unfortunately. I always backed Benitez, only towards April or May I began to see similarity's with the end of Houllier's reign and his. And only then was I open to seeing him leave. He's done miracles with Liverpool over the previous 5 seasons. But he'd burnt too many bridges and obviously lost the ability to motivate the current squad properly. Capitulation against Chelsea case in point.

His record in the transfer market recently has been dreadful also.

Melion

stumpypeeps wrote: »

All failures on the managers part unfortunately. I always backed Benitez, only towards April or May I began to see similarity's with the end of Houllier's reign and his. And only then was I open to seeing him leave. He's done miracles with Liverpool over the previous 5 seasons. But he'd burnt too many bridges and obviously lost the ability to motivate the current squad properly. Capitulation against Chelsea case in point.

His record in the transfer market recently has been dreadful also.

Please for the love of god. For the sake of this thread, edit the last sentence out of your post. PLEASE!

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

All failures on the managers part unfortunately. I always backed Benitez, only towards April or May I began to see similarity's with the end of Houllier's reign and his. And only then was I open to seeing him leave. He's done miracles with Liverpool over the previous 5 seasons. But he'd burnt too many bridges and obviously lost the ability to motivate the current squad properly. Capitulation against Chelsea case in point.

His record in the transfer market recently has been dreadful also.

i agree with much of this, or at least can sympathise with this point of view.

i personally think he should've stayed on, if purely for those said miracles, for at least another season. i think he deserved that. and the way the owners handled it, i think, caused many of us to feel a heightened amount of sympathy for him.

and i still think motivation wasn't the problem, but quality squad depth was.

his recent transfers, bar Johnson, have indeed been sub-standard.

SlickRic

Melion wrote: »

Please for the love of god. For the sake of this thread, edit the last sentence out of your post. PLEASE!

he said recent.

he should be ok.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I think you're being a little premature re: Gerrard. Football writer's player of the year just 12 months ago. He's still got a lot left to offer, whether at LFC or not.

I don't think so. I'm not writing him off in terms of being able to play, but I am writing him off as a so called world class player. He simply is not in that tier of players in my eyes. I said many times last season, even early on, that we had two genuine world class players at the club. They were the guy who gets the goals and the guy who stops the goals.

If you want to be world class, they you have to be at the level of Reina and Torres, and personally I don't see anyone else in the squad at that level, despite getting to see people post a list of four, five and even six players that are meant to be world class in the squad.

So I am not saying Gerrard is crap, I am just saying he is not top class anymore let alone world class. He may have some great moments from here in, but I see him more a good player than a potential great one at this point in his career, and that of course depends on him actually putting in some effort.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

i agree with much of this, or at least can sympathise with this point of view.

i personally think he should've stayed on, if purely for those said miracles, for at least another season. i think he deserved that. and the way the owners handled it, i think, caused many of us to feel a heightened amount of sympathy for him.

and i still think motivation wasn't the problem, but quality squad depth was.

his recent transfers, bar Johnson, have indeed been sub-standard.

I wanted him to stay on also, til I rightly or wrongly, its only subjective, began to believe that senior players wanted him gone. I couldn't care what Riera or Babel or Degen think. But the deafening silence emanating from Carragher, Gerrard and Torres is key.

When senior players have lost faith you go two ways. You sack the manager. Or you move the senior players on and let the manager invest in the playing squad with the proceeds. Benitez transfer record probably made that too much of a risk for Purslow et al.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

I don't think so. I'm not writing him off in terms of being able to play, but I am writing him off as a so called world class player. He simply is not in that tier of players in my eyes. I said many times last season, even early on, that we had two genuine world class players at the club. They were the guy who gets the goals and the guy who stops the goals.

If you want to be world class, they you have to be at the level of Reina and Torres, and personally I don't see anyone else in the squad at that level, despite getting to see people post a list of four, five and even six players that are meant to be world class in the squad.

So I am not saying Gerrard is crap, I am just saying he is not top class anymore let alone world class. He may have some great moments from here in, but I see him more a good player than a potential great one at this point in his career, and that of course depends on him actually putting in some effort.

I don't think he's world class anymore either. But 12 months ago he was the best player at Liverpool. Unquestionably. I don't think he can have lost that much in a year. Yes, his effort has to improve and his sulking stop, but he's still got it in him.

Benzino

daithijjj wrote: »

However, its the double standards i hate. Gerrard has a bad season and folk are baying for his head, rafa has an equally bad season but folk seem very forgiving. I dont buy this sentiment.

I don't see this as double standard, and it's hard to compare the 2 in my opinion. Gerrard was aweful this season, no doubt about it (as was rafa), but it's his attitude that pisses people off.

We all have have bad days at the office, and football players can all go on bad run of form, but his attitude for the captain of a team was just infuriating to watch. Take Kuyt, I would say he has just as bad as Gerrard this season, but every game Kuyt ran his socks off for the team, he put in 110% every time, Gerrard did not.

It's the same with rafa, he was terrible, but you could see he was working his ass off to try and fix the many problems we had on the pitch (even if he did make some very strange decisions). If rafa had the same attitude as Gerrard, then I would have wanted him gone too!

Also, another reason why I think it's unfair to compare the 2 is that we could still get 20+ million for Gerrard, clearly never going to get that for Rafa. And with our financial status, we need all the money we can get! And with a season that Gerrard just had, I think it's definitely worth considering selling if a buyer came in. Personally, I would keep him though.

Thats my 2c on the whole rafa and Gerrard debate thingy :pac:

Kess73

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I certainly.....


(post removed for fear it is a form of dyssomnia:p)



... from the manager.

We defo need to stabilise quickly this coming season and like you, I want a serious stab at any silverware.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I don't think he's world class anymore either. But 12 months ago he was the best player at Liverpool. Unquestionably. I don't think he can have lost that much in a year. Yes, his effort has to improve and his sulking stop, but he's still got it in him.

I would have argued that he was not the best player in our title challenge season. I would have said Alonso was our best player by some way that season, with Reina and Torres coming close along with Mascherano. Gerrard was good that season, very good at times, but I am being genuine when I say that I don't think he was in the top three at the club that season, which is a reflection on how good some of our players were that season.

Dublin_Gunner

Kess73 wrote: »

We defo need to stabilise quickly this coming season and like you, I want a serious stab at any silverware.

Interestingly, I haven't been sleeping well of late....

Kess73

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Interestingly, I haven't been sleeping well of late....

Hmmmmm, not sleeping well eh? There is this chap called Dublin Gunner on this site whose posts you could print off to read in bed. Should work a treat.;)

daithijjj

Benzino wrote: »

I don't see this as double standard, and it's hard to compare the 2 in my opinion. Gerrard was aweful this season, no doubt about it (as was rafa), but it's his attitude that pisses people off.

We all have have bad days at the office, and football players can all go on bad run of form, but his attitude for the captain of a team was just infuriating to watch. Take Kuyt, I would say he has just as bad as Gerrard this season, but every game Kuyt ran his socks off for the team, he put in 110% every time, Gerrard did not.

It's the same with rafa, he was terrible, but you could see he was working his ass off to try and fix the many problems we had on the pitch (even if he did make some very strange decisions). If rafa had the same attitude as Gerrard, then I would have wanted him gone too!

Also, another reason why I think it's unfair to compare the 2 is that we could still get 20+ million for Gerrard, clearly never going to get that for Rafa. And with our financial status, we need all the money we can get! And with a season that Gerrard just had, I think it's definitely worth considering selling if a buyer came in. Personally, I would keep him though.

Thats my 2c on the whole rafa and Gerrard debate thingy :pac:

I hear ya, i really do

Let me put this to you. When we were knocked out of the cl practically every reds fan was in unison that this was a good time to see what the fringe players could do. It never happened. IMO, and its just my opinion, benitez showed in the infamous week culminating in the brum game that he had either given up on 4th or did indeed see the europa league as his main target. It smacked to me of a man trying to build up a cv over what the 'main players' wanted, ie champions league football. Torres was fked after 55 mins away in europe but was left on. Conversely, in the brum game he seemed ok, gave the impression he was ok and his demeanour to me showed that the manager had not even asked him if he was ok. That day really just showed me that the players and him were not singing from the same hymm sheet.

Personally, selling gerrard for 20mil is neither here nor there. The only question i have to ask is, would selling gerrard put us in a better position to get into the cl, having him would make that task easier and selling him could relinquish all hope save for a miracle. So in turn, any money received could be rendered void. I also think it would hasten a torres departure. For me, the bigger picture is better with gerrard in the team because without a fully functioning gerrard and harmony in the dressing room you end up with europa league and thurs/sun football and find yourself playing in some despot in eastern europe.

I dont think people should forget that at the start of this season it was our defence that were a complete shambles, that was not a responsibility of gerrard. Even babel nearly saved blushes in the cl but the defence let the team down. There were many other factors iregardless of gerrards form. And in hindsight, over the whole season, rafa never had the motivational skills to get them out of it.

stumpypeeps

The future isn't all bad. If we keep Gerrard and Torres. Get Aquilani playing well, as he did at times, we have a decent core of players. Agger, Reina, Johnson, Carragher, Maxi Rodriguez, Benayoun, Kuyt and even Lucas are good players.

Mascherano, more importantly his wife, wants to leave. He should generate funds. Insua is wanted by Fiorentina, why I'm not sure. Add a few good players. Bring Martin Kelly, Pacheco and Ayala into the picture. Get us playing free flowing attacking football. We'll do well. I've no doubt.

More than anything I want to see us playing good positive football. 11 years of defensively minded stuff has worn me thin.

Dublin_Gunner

Kess73 wrote: »

Hmmmmm, not sleeping well eh? There is this chap called Dublin Gunner on this site whose posts you could print off to read in bed. Should work a treat.;)

They do contain some boring quotes alright.

:rolleyes:

Has anyone here bought into the ShareLiverpoolFC ?

Anyone interested in it?

Benzino

daithijjj wrote: »

Let me put this to you. When we were knocked out of the cl practically every reds fan was in unison that this was a good time to see what the fringe players could do. It never happened. IMO, and its just my opinion, benitez showed in the infamous week culminating in the brum game that he had either given up on 4th or did indeed see the europa league as his main target. It smacked to me of a man trying to build up a cv over what the 'main players' wanted, ie champions league football. Torres was fked after 55 mins away in europe but was left on. Conversely, in the brum game he seemed ok, gave the impression he was ok and his demeanour to me showed that the manager had not even asked him if he was ok. That day really just showed me that the players and him were not singing from the same hymm sheet.

This definitely falls under the strange decisions made by rafa alright. And I see what your saying, and it does all add up. I was gonna argue that rafa never intended to leave this summer, liverpool were always in his best interests etc But that seemed fanboyish tbh

I really have nothing to counter this but a stupid "rafa wouldn't do that" statement, so im inclined to agree with you here

daithijjj wrote: »

Personally, selling gerrard for 20mil is neither here nor there. The only question i have to ask is, would selling gerrard put us in a better position to get into the cl, having him would make that task easier and selling him could relinquish all hope save for a miracle. So in turn, any money received could be rendered void. I also think it would hasten a torres departure. For me, the bigger picture is better with gerrard in the team because without a fully functioning gerrard and harmony in the dressing room you end up with europa league and thurs/sun football and find yourself playing in some despot in eastern europe.

I totally agree, I don't want Gerrard gone, he pissed me many times this season with his attitude, and I admit I have said on a few occasions this year to "sell that f'ing waster", but that was in the heat of the moment. I'm knocking this down to just a bad year for the guy, who has become frustrated with sudden step backwards, which is understandable I think. I mean, I'm frigging frustrated, and I've haven't dedicated my career to the club! :pac:

MementoMori

In some utterly pointless World Cup news Carl Medjani who is in the Algerian squad was once a Liverpool player [from 2003 to 2006 - spent two seasons on loan in France] Was looking through the squad lists and the name rang a bell. Never featured for the first team at Liverpool and I don't think he has been capped by Algeria yet so unlikely to figure.

That is all.

On Gerrard it's my opinion that the balance of probabilities is that, assuming he doesn't move, we are most likely going to see more performances similiar to this season again next season as opposed to him turning it around and performing at a consistently high level. Personally if I were manager and a offer of £25m plus came in I'd take it.