Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

mike65

Milan Jovanovic to be unveiled on July 1st. (feel free to ignore this fact )

Chardee MacDennis

mike65 wrote: »

Milan Jovanovic to be unveiled on July 1st.

serbia not expecting to still be in the WC then?

Pighead

SlickRic wrote: »

granted, but it does mean he's at least a very good manager. end of. they wouldn't take a chance on him coming to a league he hasn't been a part of yet if he wasn't.

and once more, in a choice between him and our owners, you know who wins every time.

What do you mean "end of"? I think it's definitely a debateable point as to how good a manager Benitez was.

From what I saw of him he made plenty of mistakes. Doesn't use substitutions well. Plays too negatively against weaker teams. Man management style is questionable.
I also don't think a "very good manager" would have finished 7th in the league last season with the players Rafa had at his disposal. And I think you would have agreed with that sentiment back in May.

To say you would pick Rafa in a choice between him and the owners is a bit of a cop out in my opinion. Forget about the Yanks for a minute and stand back and judge Rafa's reign on it's own merits. Has it been good enough with the team he has had? No, not for me.

whatawaster

stumpypeeps wrote: »

You have no proof whatsoever they did want to work with him. Blind faith. My proof is that he's currently working in Milan.

No one knows either way. I'd wager that some did, some didn't, most cared more about their own fates than his. Like at most clubs.
Whatever about what they wanted, they weren't working well together.

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

You have no proof whatsoever they did want to work with him. Blind faith. My proof is that he's currently working in Milan.

here we go again, we're not blind if we believe the working relationship between him and the players was fine...Alonso said it, Torres has said it, Masch, Reina, they've all commented on his style, and said it works fine - they knew what was expected of them, and lauded Rafa for it.

him being in Milan is proof of nothing more than the fact our owners paid him to leave. unless you still buy into the 'player power drove him out' stuff.

mike65

BastardPrince wrote: »

serbia not expecting to still be in the WC then?

It'll be a live feed from Jo-burg!

Chardee MacDennis

Pighead wrote: »

To say you would pick Rafa in a choice between him and the owners is a bit of a cop out in my opinion. Forget about the Yanks for a minute and stand back and judge Rafa's reign on it's own merits. Has it been good enough with the team he has had? No, not for me.

hmmm me thinks the rafa denouncers should either decide if Rafa had a good squad or not? some people say he has left a terrible squad yet others say the squad is good enough to finish top 4/challenge. Some people (*cough* ronnie whelan *cough*) seem to say both...

whatawaster

mike65 wrote: »

Milan Jovanovic to be unveiled on July 1st. (feel free to ignore this fact )

Official?

Delighted if true. At least it gives me someone to look out for in the WC

mike65

Well its in the Mirror also there is a tweet doing the rounds suggesting Rafa Benitez is going to nick him but I'm not going believe that.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

here we go again, we're not blind if we believe the working relationship between him and the players was fine...Alonso said it, Torres has said it, Masch, Reina, they've all commented on his style, and said it works fine - they knew what was expected of them, and lauded Rafa for it.

him being in Milan is proof of nothing more than the fact our owners paid him to leave. unless you still buy into the 'player power drove him out' stuff.

The fans were firmly behind him. Financially, it didn't save money short term to sack him.

Despite finishing 7th and having a poor season in the cups, that I don't believe was a critical factor.

So I have become convinced that in the end it was the players who decided his faith. That doesn't mean they all stormed into the board of directors demanding his sacking. It means Gerrard, Carragher, Torres and perhaps on or two more were sounded out. Obviously a season like last will result in questions being asked.

Players get managers sacked the majority of the time.

Add to that I have posted numerous articles here from respected sources suggesting that senior players were unhappy.

Pighead

BastardPrince wrote: »

hmmm me thinks the rafa denouncers should either decide if Rafa had a good squad or not? some people say he has left a terrible squad yet others say the squad is good enough to finish top 4/challenge. Some people (*cough* ronnie whelan *cough*) seem to say both...

Well for me the core of Rafa's team has always been very good. Great goalkeeper, good defence, great central midfielders, great striker. They never really had impressive wingers which is down to Rafa really. 6 years in charge and about 6 failed wingers.

Anyway that team showed plenty of times that they were good enough to compete with the big boys (mainly in Europe) and there was absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have been doing better in the league. The fact that they didn't perform in the league has to be mainly down to the manager.

stumpypeeps

Pighead wrote: »

Well for me the core of Rafa's team has always been very good. Great goalkeeper, good defence, great central midfielders, great striker. They never really had impressive wingers which is down to Rafa really. 6 years in charge and about 6 failed wingers.

Anyway that team showed plenty of times that they were good enough to compete with the big boys (mainly in Europe) and there was absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have been doing better in the league. The fact that they didn't perform in the league has to be mainly down to the manager.

His tactics didn't change, personal was largely the same, so what changed?

In my opinion, players lost faith. Which after 6 years and no League championship, invariably happens.

Chardee MacDennis

Pighead wrote: »

Well for me the core of Rafa's team has always been very good. Great goalkeeper, good defence, great central midfielders, great striker. They never really had impressive wingers which is down to Rafa really. 6 years in charge and about 6 failed wingers.

Anyway that team showed plenty of times that they were good enough to compete with the big boys (mainly in Europe) and there was absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have been doing better in the league. The fact that they didn't perform in the league has to be mainly down to the manager.

what about the players? does no responsibility fall on their heads? stevie saved himself for the world cup from the moment we were out of the race (and before then he was plain sh1t), carra had his worst season in a pool jersey. either of those had been dropped (more so Stevie) rafa would have been lynched by those players and the media and his days would have been numbered imo.

i am not excusing Rafa, he has many failures of which were evident last season, but when your best player is out for a lot of the season and your third best player doesnt give a ****, what can you do?

Chardee MacDennis

stumpypeeps wrote: »

His tactics didn't change, personal was largely the same, so what changed?

In my opinion, players lost faith. Which after 6 years and no League championship, invariably happens.

well then the players are deluded, we dont have a right to be challenging - its like firing O'Neal for not winning the league, it makes no sense. I believe IF it was player power then the players are Stevie and maybe Carra - which is disappointing as it was their poor form that shafted us this season...

willowthewisp

Dub13 wrote: »

Me and a mate brought this out on stage last Sat night at the end of One Night In Istanbul in the Grand Canal Theatre.

We have lost a good man.

Boss flag, bad trabs!

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Add to that I have posted numerous articles here from respected sources suggesting that senior players were unhappy.

forgive my ignorance, but just to clarify, unhappy with Rafa or the state of the club?

because anything from anyone other than a very close source to a player is speculation until proven otherwise.

i think they wanted change at the top, as they saw no money coming in; that we definitely have quotes for. further than that, we have very little in the way of actual evidence.

so much of it depends which side of the fence you're on as to how you interpret everything.

whatawaster

BastardPrince wrote: »

what about the players? does no responsibility fall on their heads? stevie saved himself for the world cup from the moment we were out of the race (and before then he was plain sh1t), carra had his worst season in a pool jersey. either of those had been dropped (more so Stevie) rafa would have been lynched by those players and the media and his days would have been numbered imo.

i am not excusing Rafa, he has many failures of which were evident last season, but when your best player is out for a lot of the season and your third best player doesnt give a ****, what can you do?

Rafa is responsible for the form of every player. He buys them/chooses not to sell them, trains them, gives them tactics etc.
If a player is not performing, and still picked, the manager has nobody to blame but himself.
So f*cking what if the media/player had given out? Manager's have to be strong and single-minded. Last season, Rafa wasn't. He was either weak, or blind to the problems.

Pighead

BastardPrince wrote: »

what about the players? does no responsibility fall on their heads? stevie saved himself for the world cup from the moment we were out of the race (and before then he was plain sh1t), carra had his worst season in a pool jersey. either of those had been dropped (more so Stevie) rafa would have been lynched by those players and the media and his days would have been numbered imo.

i am not excusing Rafa, he has many failures of which were evident last season, but when your best player is out for a lot of the season and your third best player doesnt give a ****, what can you do?

Sunderland 1 Liverpool 0
Fulham 3 Liverpool 1
Liverpool 2 Birmingham 2
Portsmouth 2 Liverpool 0
Reading 1 Liverpool 1
Liverpool 1 Reading 2
Stoke 1 Liverpool 1
Wolves 0 Liverpool 0
Wigan 1 Liverpool 0
Birmingham 1 Liverpool 1
Liverpool 0 Fulham 0
Hull 0 Liverpool 0

Go through the match threads of any of those games from last season and see how many Pool fans are giving out about Rafa's negativity, poor substitutions etc. It seems to me that all the Rafa failings have been swept under the carpet in favour of a "It's all the owners/Stevie G/Fink Goodies fault" type campaign.

stumpypeeps

BastardPrince wrote: »

well then the players are deluded, we dont have a right to be challenging - its like firing O'Neal for not winning the league, it makes no sense. I believe IF it was player power then the players are Stevie and maybe Carra - which is disappointing as it was their poor form that shafted us this season...

I have no doubt they played the leading role. Its the chicken or the egg debate, did the players stop performing because they had lost faith, or did they blame the manager for their own poor performances and that of the teams. Either way their is always one result.

I'm not suggesting they believed they should be winning the league. But had they managed it, then any doubts they may have had about the managers methods would have been dispelled and we wouldn't be having this debate now.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

forgive my ignorance, but just to clarify, unhappy with Rafa or the state of the club?

because anything from anyone other than a very close source to a player is speculation until proven otherwise.

i think they wanted change at the top, as they saw no money coming in; that we definitely have quotes for. further than that, we have very little in the way of actual evidence.

so much of it depends which side of the fence you're on as to how you interpret everything.

Loathe him perhaps, but Jamie Redknapp is close to Steven Gerrard. I don't think he would fabricate lies about a club he still considers His club.

The ex-Liverpool captain told the Daily Mail: “Benitez won the Champions League and the FA Cup, but it was time for him to go.”
“I speak to some of the Liverpool players, but you don’t have to do that to see how unhappy they were last season.”
“The manager had lost the dressing room. They almost downed tools.”

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

His tactics didn't change, personal was largely the same, so what changed?

In my opinion, players lost faith. Which after 6 years and no League championship, invariably happens.[/QUOTE]




Does not seem to have happened with Wenger. The last time Arsenal won a league title under Wenger, Houllier was still the manager at Liverpool.

While I agree that the manager is a big part of how a team performs, a nig chunk of the blame has to fall on the players too.

Somebody here was trying to argue the point that the players are more important than a manager the other day, and something along the lines of in terms of importance, The players make up 80% and the manager is 20%.

Running with the line of logic that the players are the most important thing, and that players who are discontent can get rid of a manger, then surely logic would dictate that the malcontents are then the ones which should get the lion's share of any responsibility for any bad season, as it was their lack of effort which brought about the poor results more than the manager who is effectively at the mercy of the player's whims.

Now I don't personally suscribe to the theory myself, I was just following through on the logic of what has been said over a number of days by various people, as I believe that Rafa brought a lot of what went wrong ontop the club through his methods, but I do firmly hold the senior players who underperformed and gave no effort just as responsible, maybe even more so, because their actions suggest that if they did not like the methods of a new manager that they would do the same again.

If Rafa's reward for an awful season was to be the loss of his job at the club, then there are a number of players who should have been shown the door also and sold on as their efforts and attitudes last season were simply not even reaching the minimum standards required at the club.

Kingdom

BastardPrince wrote: »

what about the players? does no responsibility fall on their heads? stevie saved himself for the world cup from the moment we were out of the race (and before then he was plain sh1t), carra had his worst season in a pool jersey. either of those had been dropped (more so Stevie) rafa would have been lynched by those players and the media and his days would have been numbered imo.

i am not excusing Rafa, he has many failures of which were evident last season, but when your best player is out for a lot of the season and your third best player doesnt give a ****, what can you do?

This to me sums up the whole problem.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Does not seem to have happened with Wenger. The last time Arsenal won a league title under Wenger, Houllier was still the manager at Liverpool.

While I agree that the manager is a big part of how a team performs, a nig chunk of the blame has to fall on the players too.

Somebody here was trying to argue the point that the players are more important than a manager the other day, and something along the lines of in terms of importance, The players make up 80% and the manager is 20%.

Running with the line of logic that the players are the most important thing, and that players who are discontent can get rid of a manger, then surely logic would dictate that the malcontents are then the ones which should get the lion's share of any responsibility for any bad season, as it was their lack of effort which brought about the poor results more than the manager who is effectively at the mercy of the player's whims.

Now I don't personally suscribe to the theory myself, I was just following through on the logic of what has been said over a number of days by various people, as I believe that Rafa brought a lot of what went wrong ontop the club through his methods, but I do firmly hold the senior players who underperformed and gave no effort just as responsible, maybe even more so, because their actions suggest that if they did not like the methods of a new manager that they would do the same again.

If Rafa's reward for an awful season was to be the loss of his job at the club, then there are a number of players who should have been shown the door also and sold on as their efforts and attitudes last season were simply not even reaching the minimum standards required at the club.

I'd agree with most of that. The problem is that the players are all financial assetts. The manager has little resale value.

The difference between Wenger and Benitez is that Wenger has proven that he has what it takes to win the Premiership, albeit a a good few years ago now. Should things persist much longer at Arsenal even he won't be secure in his position.

SlickRic

stumpypeeps wrote: »

The ex-Liverpool captain told the Daily Mail: “Benitez won the Champions League and the FA Cup, but it was time for him to go.”
“I speak to some of the Liverpool players, but you don’t have to do that to see how unhappy they were last season.”
“The manager had lost the dressing room. They almost downed tools.”

he's not lying, he's giving his opinion, and using the fact he's Stevie's mate to give it weight, because Redknapp obviously believes it was time for Rafa to go.

which is fine.

but you're a smart guy, it's not proof.

and do people honestly believe Rafa was the main problem?

players have come out and said the turmoil at the club had effected them - i.e. the owners.
players came out and wanted re-investment in the squad - owners.
there's a need for a bigger stadium, giving us more revenue - owners.

Rafa's not a saint, infallible, or anything even remotely close, but the main blame is not on him.

do you not see they're making Rafa a nice little scapegoat for the state of things? yes, he had a poor season, and under normal circumstances he'd have probably been a strong contender for the sack, in what is a cut-throat business, but Liverpool FC is not in normal circumstances currently.

Rafa > Yanks.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Loathe him perhaps, but Jamie Redknapp is close to Steven Gerrard. I don't think he would fabricate lies about a club he still considers His club.

The ex-Liverpool captain told the Daily Mail: “Benitez won the Champions League and the FA Cup, but it was time for him to go.”
“I speak to some of the Liverpool players, but you don’t have to do that to see how unhappy they were last season.”
“The manager had lost the dressing room. They almost downed tools.”

To be honest I would reckon that Redknapp's opinion and views are worthless to the majority of Liverpool fans for a long time now. He was always a buit of a cliche ridden fool on tv, but once he started working for that newspaper in the mid noughties, having a column and doing their webchat show.


Souness was lambasted for his interview with that rag, despite the fact he was straight after heart surgery when he did so.

Redknapp, another former captain of the club and a man who is quick now to claim that Liverpool is his club again (Must have forgotten that he waffled on about Spurs being his club last season), has no excuses for getting paid by that rag to be a regular during those years. No doubt come the world cup he will be back on the payroll again for their webchats.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

he's not lying, he's giving his opinion, and using the fact he's Stevie's mate to give it weight, because Redknapp obviously believes it was time for Rafa to go.

which is fine.

but you're a smart guy, it's not proof.

and do people honestly believe Rafa was the main problem?

players have come out and said the turmoil at the club had effected them - i.e. the owners.
players came out and wanted re-investment in the squad - owners.
there's a need for a bigger stadium, giving us more revenue - owners.

Rafa's not a saint, infallible, or anything even remotely close, but the main blame is not on him.

do you not see they're making Rafa a nice little scapegoat for the state of things? yes, he had a poor season, and under normal circumstances he'd have probably been a strong contender for the sack, in what is a cut-throat business, but Liverpool FC is not in normal circumstances currently.

Rafa > Yanks.

Thats one interpretation of that quote. My interpretation would be 'without naming names, the players were unhappy with the manager'.

People with associations and friends at a club know a lot more of whats actually going on inside than we'll ever know.

For instance, my father worked with a former secretary of a county board. During that time I was privy to a lot of things that were going on with the senior county players and their relationship with their manager. None of that ever appeared in the national press. Had it, it would have explained why said manager was sacked despite winning an All Ireland 2 seasons previous.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest I would reckon that Redknapp's opinion and views are worthless to the majority of Liverpool fans for a long time now. He was always a buit of a cliche ridden fool on tv, but once he started working for that newspaper in the mid noughties, having a column and doing their webchat show.


Souness was lambasted for his interview with that rag, despite the fact he was straight after heart surgery when he did so.

Redknapp, another former captain of the club and a man who is quick now to claim that Liverpool is his club again (Must have forgotten that he waffled on about Spurs being his club last season), has no excuses for getting paid by that rag to be a regular during those years. No doubt come the world cup he will be back on the payroll again for their webchats.

Are you not confusing the Daily Mail with The S*n?

SlickRic

fair enough. point well made. we'll just have to wait and see.

but again, was Rafa the main problem? is he the root of it, in your eyes?

who would you like to have seen out, Rafa or the owners?

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Are you not confusing the Daily Mail with The S*n?

No I am not. He does a lot of work now with the Mail.

During 2004/2005/2006 he was with the Rag with his column and the webchat thing.

It is the reason was the man is despised many a large number in the city of Liverpool.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

No I am not. He does a lot of work now with the Mail.

During 2004/2005/2006 he was with the Rag with his column and the webchat thing.

It is the reason was the man is despised many a large number in the city of Liverpool.

Sorry I get it now. Yeah, theirs no forgiving working for the sun. Jamie Redknapp is not the most popular figure on merseyside for sure, it still doesn't prevent him from being mates with Steven Gerrard. And subsequently having an inside track on whats going on iside the club.

Mr Alan

stumpy. you may wanna re-read what the lad said. works for the mail now. worked for the rag in the past.

stumpypeeps

SlickRic wrote: »

fair enough. point well made. we'll just have to wait and see.

but again, was Rafa the main problem? is he the root of it, in your eyes?

who would you like to have seen out, Rafa or the owners?

The root of it in my eyes, was the relationship he had with his senior players.

Who bears responsibilty for the deterioation of that relationship is impossible for me to know. In all likelihood both sides played their part equally.

Of course I want to see an end to the current regime. In an ideal world Rafa would have been given all the financial backing he wanted and we would be League Champions by now. Unfortunately thats not the reality we live in.

I do think however, and this will be hugely unpopular, that Rafa did recieve quite a lot of backing in the transfer market, certainly enough to have comfortably finished in the top four this season.

Mr Alan

he received decent enough backing in his first three years and subsequently we reeped the rewards of it. this was a **** season for all concerned, Rafa and the players, the players considerably more so, and its exposed the criminal lack of backing he's gotten in recent seasons. But instead of thinking about the reasons for the underperformance, being appalled by players lack of effort at times, and up-ing the ante to getting rid of the owners, we paid to get rid of a manager after 1 bad season

Mr Alan

plus haven't City, Villa and Spurs spent nope than us in the last 3 seasons, so in reality if you're using spending as a barometer for where we SHOULD finish, we're about right.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Sorry I get it now. Yeah, theirs no forgiving working for the sun. Jamie Redknapp is not the most popular figure on merseyside for sure, it still doesn't prevent him from being mates with Steven Gerrard. And subsequently having an inside track on whats going on iside the club.

Maybe he is mates with Gerrard, maybe Carragher too, but when Redknapp talks about players at the club, he always makes it sound like there are loads of players there that he played with.

So if he is peddling his comments as fact, then he can only be repeating what one or two could be saying.

Funny though how he had no "exclusive" insider knowledge for years and years, despite the club being fuill of mates of his, but suddenly it is all "the boys told me" from him.

Have no time for him or his cliche ridden bilge. He is just making the most of the current situation to raise his own profile, nowt more imho.

stumpypeeps

Mr Alan wrote: »

he received decent enough backing in his first three years and subsequently we reeped the rewards of it. this was a **** season for all concerned, Rafa and the players, the players considerably more so, and its exposed the criminal lack of backing he's gotten in recent seasons. But instead of thinking about the reasons for the underperformance, being appalled by players lack of effort at times, and up-ing the ante to getting rid of the owners, we paid to get rid of a manager after 1 bad season

He recieved decent backing from G&H in their first year and that allowed the signing of Torres which was his single most influential signing.

I don't believe that one bad season after 5 seasons of general progress was the critical reasoning behind his sacking. I thought their must have been more to it. Thats when, rightly or wrongly, I began to question the relationship between players and manager.

Pighead

Mr Alan wrote: »

he received decent enough backing in his first three years and subsequently we reeped the rewards of it. this was a **** season for all concerned, Rafa and the players, the players considerably more so, and its exposed the criminal lack of backing he's gotten in recent seasons. But instead of thinking about the reasons for the underperformance, being appalled by players lack of effort at times, and up-ing the ante to getting rid of the owners, we paid to get rid of a manager after 1 bad season

06/07 was a bad season Al. You're letting a run to the Champions League final cloud the fact that Liverpool had a very disappointing league campaign.

Mr Alan

also, stumpy is specifically ignoring the fact that Redknapp has said his opinion on Rafa's relationship with the players is NOT based on anything Gerrard has said to him

Zapp Brannigan

Anyone know a good place to buy retro jerseys from? The ones on the official site don't quite tickle my fancy.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Maybe he is mates with Gerrard, maybe Carragher too, but when Redknapp talks about players at the club, he always makes it sound like there are loads of players there that he played with.

So if he is peddling his comments as fact, then he can only be repeating what one or two could be saying.

Funny though how he had no "exclusive" insider knowledge for years and years, despite the club being fuill of mates of his, but suddenly it is all "the boys told me" from him.

Have no time for him or his cliche ridden bilge. He is just making the most of the current situation to raise his own profile, nowt more imho.

He was very much a yes man to all things Liverpool for as long as I could remember, Gerrard this, Torres that, usual drivel. However, his tone suddenly changed in the middle of last season and he became one of the most critical voices against Rafa.

I found that a bit strange.

Mr Alan

Pighead wrote: »

06/07 was a bad season Al. You're letting a run to the Champions League final cloud the fact that Liverpool had a very disappointing league campaign.

Gettin to the Champions League final and finishing top 4 is at the very least, a good season for Liverpool. Has been considered such for the last 20 years. You're quite simply very wrong.

Kess73

Mr Alan wrote: »

he received decent enough backing in his first three years and subsequently we reeped the rewards of it. this was a **** season for all concerned, Rafa and the players, the players considerably more so, and its exposed the criminal lack of backing he's gotten in recent seasons. But instead of thinking about the reasons for the underperformance, being appalled by players lack of effort at times, and up-ing the ante to getting rid of the owners, we paid to get rid of a manager after 1 bad season

We will get what we deserve in terms of the next manager. If the board have the ambition to want to strengthen the club in a genuine fashion, then they will be trying for a manager that is more proven than Benitez, in terms of experience and silverware won. At least if there is a genuine push for someone like that, then moving Rafa on would make sense.


But if they go for the cheap option, and just get a manager who would not be an obvious upgrade (unless of course that manager was only a stop gap for up to 12 months or so) and appoint that man on a three or more year contract, then we know the scale of ambition for the future.

Now I am realistic enough to know that finishing 4th next season is what we are aiming at, and it would be an improvement, a big one, on the season gone, but if the target is simply to get 4th place season in, season out, well it won't be long before we end up in another 7th place season.

stumpypeeps

Mr Alan wrote: »

Gettin to the Champions League final and finishing top 4 is at the very least, a good season for Liverpool. Has been considered such for the last 20 years. You're quite simply very wrong.

Would it not be fair to say that throughout his reign, the results in the Champions league helped to sweep aside a lot of the question marks about performances and decisions domestically?

Mr Alan

Kess, finishing fourth has been the target for Hicks & Gillette and he's been spending as such since the deterioration of the relationship between him and George. Presume you've seen the quotes where he talks in glowing terms about how sports teams don't need to be successful for them to make money? or something along those lines

Pighead

Mr Alan wrote: »

Gettin to the Champions League final and finishing top 4 is at the very least, a good season for Liverpool. Has been considered such for the last 20 years. You're quite simply very wrong.

On paper maybe but you had just had a pretty encouraging season in 05/06 and it was thought that you were just a decent striker away from producing a worthwhile league challenge. Rafa bought Bellamy, Kuyt, Pennant and Gonzalez hopes were sky high. Ultimately the challenge never materialised with Liverpool having a horrible first half of the season. To say Pool fans weren't disappointed with how their league campaign fared out in 06/07 is disingenuous.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Would it not be fair to say that throughout his reign, the results in the Champions league helped to sweep aside a lot of the question marks about performances and decisions domestically?

Another way to look at it is that during Rafa's term, Liverpool were probably the third most consistent and the third most successful club in the Premiership. What does that say for the 17 other managers in the league? Especially the lauded ones at clubs who had genuine financial clout during that time.

Seems to me that if Rafa is a failure and an underperformer, then there are a few clubs who should be weighing up if their current managers are good enough.

What is even more worrying is that some of those lauded managers who generally have worse records than Rafa are being touted as potential replacements.

Now I have been one of those who wanted Rafa out, but I always said it could only be is the replacement was a definite upgrade in my eyes. So to get rid of Rafa and put in a lesser manager based on their results is madness to me.

Villain

Mr Alan wrote: »

plus haven't City, Villa and Spurs spent nope than us in the last 3 seasons, so in reality if you're using spending as a barometer for where we SHOULD finish, we're about right.

It all depends on what years you select to measure the spending over, I mean Villa has spent big in the last few years but jesus before that we barely had enough players to fill a team sheet.

If you take the starting point from where MON started and take Rafa who had a team who won the Champions league you would expect MON to have had to spend an awful lot more than Rafa to get anywhere near Liverpool.

These stats of how much each manger has spent over the last x years aren't worth a damn without some context.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

Another way to look at it is that during Rafa's term, Liverpool were probably the third most consistent and the third most successful club in the Premiership. What does that say for the 17 other managers in the league? Especially the lauded ones at clubs who had genuine financial clout during that time.

Seems to me that if Rafa is a failure and an underperformer, then there are a few clubs who should be weighing up if their current managers are good enough.

What is even more worrying is that some of those lauded managers who generally have worse records than Rafa are being touted as potential replacements.

Now I have been one of those who wanted Rafa out, but I always said it could only be is the replacement was a definite upgrade in my eyes. So to get rid of Rafa and put in a lesser manager based on their results is madness to me.

Would this not suggest something critical made the owners take this route? So far the only thing I can think of is the player manager relationship.
Initially I hoped that new owners were clearing the decks for their own man to take the helm. Wishful thinking I know.:rolleyes:

Splainc

Villain wrote: »

It all depends on what years you select to measure the spending over, I mean Villa has spent big in the last few years but jesus before that we barely had enough players to fill a team sheet.

If you take the starting point from where MON started and take Rafa who had a team who won the Champions league you would expect MON to have had to spend an awful lot more than Rafa to get anywhere near Liverpool.

These stats of how much each manger has spent over the last x years aren't worth a damn without some context.

But did you see some of that team? Smicer, Traore, Cisse etc?

Rafa had to completely overhaul that entire squad beginning with the keeper who had been useless for a couple of years. Actually Dudek somes up the amazing night it was as he was amazing but had been ****e for a long time. Seemed harsh selling him the next year but from the start Rafa had to spend money to bring in first teamers and squad players. Unfortunately he brought in so many players that there were a lot of screw ups with transfers

Mister men

Pighead wrote: »

06/07 was a bad season Al. You're letting a run to the Champions League final cloud the fact that Liverpool had a very disappointing league campaign.

Don't tell me getting to that final was just luck? It was a good season and if not for a so so display in that match we would have had six big ears.