Arsenal FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

cson

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Well, getting a higher rating out of 10 to me suggests that you think he had a better season than Cesc.

Also, don't agree with shipping out both Almunia and Fabianski. A new first choice keeper is certainly needed but Mannone as 2nd choice is just an accident waiting to happen.

I do from a certain p.o.v. From the level he came from to the level where he's at now I think Song had a better overall season. Of course it's only my opinion but I do think his level of progress is indicative of a good season -perhaps 8/10 would have been more accurate. Cesc has been his brilliant self all season and is deserving of our player of the year award [and I know that seems contradictory based on the above...] but he has been pretty anonymous in the big games. Now whether thats down to other around him freezing or otherwise, it's something that must change.

Frisbee

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I actually agree with arsenallegend for once; Song is overrated on this board. He's had a very good season but better than Cesc? Come on.

Well what we were expecting from Cesc and what we were expecting from Song were two completely different things and Song far surpassed what we were3 expecting of him.

Also, imo, Song has had a more consistent season, Cesc has gone missing in basically all our big games.

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Also, don't agree with shipping out both Almunia and Fabianski. A new first choice keeper is certainly needed but Mannone as 2nd choice is just an accident waiting to happen.

And Fabianski as 2nd choice isn't already proven to be an accident waiting to happen?

Pepe LeFrits

Well, players should be rated on what they do and not what they're expected to do. Cesc has 19 goals and 19 assists this season and has been inspirational. Song has been functional and has hardly been without his flaws either.

Re: goalkeepers - I'm saying Almunia should be second choice.

Frisbee

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Re: goalkeepers - I'm saying Almunia should be second choice.

Fair enough

leninbenjamin

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I don't really understand why Pat Rice gets singled out either - any evidence to suggest he isn't doing a good job? Everything I've seen suggests he is anything but a yes man.

You've completely missed the point. It's about bringing in a fresh face with different ideas, new methods and new outlooks that challenge Wenger's own. The relationship with Rice seems almost too relaxed at times, too familiar. A new face upsets the managers comfort zone and at the least forces him to be a bit more proactive.

Pepe LeFrits

leninbenjamin wrote: »

You've completely missed the point. It's about bringing in a fresh face with different ideas, new methods and new outlooks that challenge Wenger's own. The relationship with Rice seems almost too relaxed at times, too familiar. A new face upsets the managers comfort zone and at the least forces him to be a bit more proactive.

What evidence is there to back this up though?

A new face might have different methods to Pat Rice but that isn't necessarily a good thing, and I haven't seen much to suggest that Rice and Wenger are aligned in terms of outlook and ideas. Certainly Arsene has said a number of times that Pat Rice and he often disagree and that he values people who challenge his views.

If people aren't happy with the way Arsene is doing things then the talk should be of Arsene being replaced, not his number two. He's in charge, the buck stops with him.

leninbenjamin

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

What evidence is there to back this up though?

See my post above about United.

Pepe LeFrits

That's pretty insubstantial.

Nobody outside the club is really in a position to see if the back-room is working or not, and thus it's pretty unfair to blame Pat Rice for whatever failings the manager may have.

redzerdrog

i think chamakh is better suited to playing off the frontman than leading the line himself

cson

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

That's pretty insubstantial.

Nobody outside the club is really in a position to see if the back-room is working or not, and thus it's pretty unfair to blame Pat Rice for whatever failings the manager may have.

I've not blamed Pat Rice once. I simply think that after 14 odd years a change of no.2 wouldn't be a bad thing. I don't mean having Pat Rice ****ed out either - a reassignment.

leninbenjamin

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

That's pretty insubstantial.

As you say yourself we can't fully know what goes on behind, so circumstantial evidence like that is as good as we fans can get.

But in almost any walk of life a certain degree of staff turnover is healthy. Arsenal's backroom staff has remained fairly static since Wenger was appointed, much more so than any other club in football tbh. I'd be concerned we've become a bit like the public sector of professional football in this regard, the back room staff becoming creatures of habit if you get me. No one is blaming anyone per se, it's just what happens.

Fresh faces, fresh thinking, new relationships, new insights, new dynamics.

cson

leninbenjamin wrote: »

As you say yourself we can't fully know what goes on behind, so circumstantial evidence like that is as good as we fans can get.

But in almost any walk of life a certain degree of staff turnover is healthy. Arsenal's backroom staff has remained fairly static since Wenger was appointed, much more so than any other club in football tbh. I'd be concerned we've become a bit like the public sector of professional football in this regard, the back room staff becoming creatures of habit if you get me. No one is blaming anyone per se, it's just what happens.

Fresh faces, fresh thinking, new relationships, new insights, new dynamics.

That's pretty much the same opinion I have. If you look at the successful clubs in the last 5 years - Chelsea and Manchester United both have had a turnover of assistants.

Frisbee

Who would you like to see brought in as assistant?

cson

Frisbee wrote: »

Who would you like to see brought in as assistant?

I said Houllier in my long post and I'll stick by that.

Edit: Failing that and picking from our own stock; Bergkamp.

Frisbee

cson wrote: »

I said Houllier in my long post and I'll stick by that.

Edit: Failing that and picking from our own stock; Bergkamp.

Your looking for someone who would have no problem challenging Wenger and your first choice is Houllier? I could see him just saying yes to everything Arsene says.

Bergkamp wouldn't be a bad shout.

But I'm still in the corner that Rice isn't a problem.

cson

I think Houllier is hugely knowledgeable about the game and players and would have no problem putting forward his point of view. Of course it's neither her nor there because you wouldn't know what'd happen until it was reality.

cson

Frisbee wrote: »

But I'm still in the corner that Rice isn't a problem.

He's not a problem per se, but for the reasons Lenin Benjamin outlined above, a frsh impetus would be worthwhile imo.

Frisbee

Jayzus even The Guardian are at it in earnest now...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/apr/24/cesc-fabregas-transfer-rumours

This week saw the first convincing signs that summer is coming. People on public transport seem flustered and cross. Suddenly none of the jackets you own are any use – and in fact no jacket in the history of jackets seems quite right, as demonstrated by that annually disappointing selection of blousons, windcheaters and blazer-type things that make you look like a flinty Marks & Spencer catalogue man frowning in deck shoes next to a gazebo. Most telling of all, contenders for the Premier League's annual summer transfer saga have begun to bubble and froth and rise to the top of the pan. Leading the pack is Cesc Fábregas and his move to Barcelona or Real Madrid. This could turn out to be one of the most irritating – and also perhaps alarming – transfer sagas yet.

Right now we're in an early stage known as the irresistible dance of media seduction. This week this has taken the form of a series of coy denials issued by Fábregas's father, including "I was not at the Santiago Bernabéu last Sunday", "A meeting with Jorge Valdano? It is totally false" and, my favourite, "I have been walking around Barcelona with my daughter". These work best if you imagine them being spoken by a winking, conspiratorial man performing a series of contradictory mimes suggesting (a) piously entering the Bernabéu; (b) embracing Valdano across a buffet sandwich lunch; and (c) pushing a wheelbarrow full of money through the streets of Barcelona while performing a triumphant closing‑number musical dance-march.

This process will continue through the early summer, eventually taking on a hypnotic quality and creating a skillfully layered sense that this has already happened anyway, that we've already witnessed the unveiling in expensively haggard jeans, the sweaty chairman's hug, the oddly intimate public medical. Until finally, like any phrase repeated often enough even the words "Cesc Fábregas" will start to seem alien. What is a Cesc Fábregas anyway, we will ask. A brand of Mediterranean hairspray? A type of EU-standard portable builder's toilet? An Iberian man in football boots? This is saturation point. We're ready. Just make it stop.

Before then there will be more talk that a move to A Big Rich Club In Spain is Fábregas's "destiny", just like it was Cristiano Ronaldo's "destiny" to play for Real Madrid in order to do quite well in patches in an enduringly silly-seeming team. This is a fashionable notion, but the fact remains that simply calling something "your destiny" doesn't make it inevitable, or even a good idea. I can say it's "my destiny" to spend the weekend eating leftover Lamb bhuna in my dressing gown while trying to think up unfavourable anagrams of "David Cameron" (there are none: you run out of words after "I am a drone"), but at the end of it I'm still a squinting, haggard man who shrinks from the daylight.

The thing is, it probably is Fábregas's destiny to go to Spain this summer; not for annoying, self-righteous collective-Catalan-midfield-gnome-gnome-homing-gene reasons, but because the process is in train. And he will be genuinely genuinely missed. Fabregas is good in just the right way, not flamboyantly or televisually, but with stealth and craft and a peripheral sense for space and opportunity. He has been good for the Premier League's self-esteem: a successfully embedded un-English non-English player, filling the same role our in-house space boffin Arsène Wenger has as a manager, and bolstering our tender feelings of being un-trumpable by EU modernities.

This has changed a little of late, and in a certain light even Wenger seems marginalised and a bit crankish, like an old woman who keeps losing her cats. You worry for him more than anyone else. Summer is here and they're coming for our young men.

Kirnsy

So whats the general consensus lads? will Fabregas go?

I think he will stay personally. In a weird way his injury might turn out to be the key to this. Because of this injury (along with robins etc) Wenger will convince him that we would have won it this year. He'll give it another year. Though P Hill Woods comments that he wouldn't get into the Barca team definitely didn't help...


ps - fantastic write up Cson. I might do one once my bloody exams have finished. :mad:

Frisbee

Kirnsy wrote: »

So whats the general consensus lads? will Fabregas go?

I think he will stay personally. In a weird way his injury might turn out to be the key to this. Because of this injury (along with robins etc) Wenger will convince him that we would have won it this year. He'll give it another year. Though P Hill Woods comments that he wouldn't get into the Barca team definitely didn't help...


ps - fantastic write up Cson. I might do one once my bloody exams have finished. :mad:

He's definitely staying, no doubt in my mind.

As regards the PHW comments they were taken massively out of context.
Hr can't get ahead of Xavi+Iniesta for the national team so why would he be able to at club level. Regardless of how good Fab is it would be stupid to break up that partnership.

Pepe LeFrits

If it's fresh impetus we're after, why not get a new manager so?

SlickRic

Cesc will go nowhere this summer.

i'm as sure of that as I am of Torres staying at least another year with our lot.

Spiritoftheseventies

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

If it's fresh impetus we're after, why not get a new manager so?

You would want to be getting a very good manager. As I have said many times before, Arsenal were a totally different beast under Wenger.
Arsenal have evolved from being one of the most boring teams to watch under Graham to being a terrific team to watch under Wenger.
Managers like like dont come around every day. You will miss him when he's gone.

cson

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

If it's fresh impetus we're after, why not get a new manager so?

No one mentioned that at all. You can inject something a little different without changing the manager; I'm not for a second suggesting we should have someone other than AW at the helm. Would you not agree that we have nothing to lose by having someone with a differing style etc for at least a season? I think there's a big deal being made of this when in reality were it to happen it'd be relatively minor.

leninbenjamin

Frisbee wrote: »

Who would you like to see brought in as assistant?

me

Frisbee

leninbenjamin wrote: »

me

I'm sold

cson

leninbenjamin wrote: »

me

+1

Although I'm tempted to throw my hat into the ring having overseen 3 promotions in 5 years with Darlington. I feel Football Manager has equipped me with the necessary skillz.

Frisbee

cson wrote: »

+1

Although I'm tempted to throw my hat into the ring having overseen 3 promotions in 5 years with Darlington. I feel Football Manager has equipped me with the necessary skillz.

Pepe LeFrits

cson wrote: »

No one mentioned that at all. You can inject something a little different without changing the manager; I'm not for a second suggesting we should have someone other than AW at the helm. Would you not agree that we have nothing to lose by having someone with a differing style etc for at least a season? I think there's a big deal being made of this when in reality were it to happen it'd be relatively minor.

You're talking about demoting/sacking a man who has spent 42 years at Arsenal and has been a fantastic servant to the club for reasons which, still as far as I can tell, amount to change for the sake of it. You say he isn't doing anything wrong per se but then say that things need freshening up - so they're stale - and removing Rice from post puts the blame at his feet. It's scapegoating.

Wenger is Pat Rice's manager also, and if he isn't doing a good job then it's Arsene's responsibility to replace him. If the team isn't performing acceptably on the pitch, and this is what this is about, then the person taken to task should be Wenger, and no-one else.

We could have plenty to lose by ejecting Pat Rice and bringing someone new in for the final season; the assertion that we have nothing to lose by removing him from his post basically says that the job he does is worthless and he deserves a helluva lot better than that. A new guy could come in and do a poor job. Rice knows the club better than anyone else I'd wager, he knows all the staff, the players, and I suspect he also knows a thing or to about football. Wenger & Rice have been a pretty damn good team for the club for 14 years and I really don't see the logic in rocking the boat when he is going into the final year of his contract (and may want another). Turmoil in the back-room next season could be hugely damaging.

Spiritoftheseventies

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

You're talking about demoting/sacking a man who has spent 42 years at Arsenal and has been a fantastic servant to the club for reasons which, still as far as I can tell, amount to change for the sake of it. You say he isn't doing anything wrong per se but then say that things need freshening up - so they're stale - and removing Rice from post puts the blame at his feet. It's scapegoating.

Wenger is Pat Rice's manager also, and if he isn't doing a good job then it's Arsene's responsibility to replace him. If the team isn't performing acceptably on the pitch, and this is what this is about, then the person taken to task should be Wenger, and no-one else.

We could have plenty to lose by ejecting Pat Rice and bringing someone new in for the final season; the assertion that we have nothing to lose by removing him from his post basically says that the job he does is worthless and he deserves a helluva lot better than that. A new guy could come in and do a poor job. Rice knows the club better than anyone else I'd wager, he knows all the staff, the players, and I suspect he also knows a thing or to about football. Wenger & Rice have been a pretty damn good team for the club for 14 years and I really don't see the logic in rocking the boat when he is going into the final year of his contract (and may want another). Turmoil in the back-room next season could be hugely damaging.

Is Pat Rice there that long?

Paleface

In my view there is only one major problem at Arsenal.

They just do not have a good enough squad to compete with United and Chelsea at this moment in time. They also failed to add to that squad when they were clearly weakened due to having average players in certain positions and a mounting injury list which consisted of our better players! The squad should have been strengthened more in January.

That has nothing to do with Pat Rice. It is Wenger who makes such decisions.

Now we do not know why he made that decision but most people would think that it is financial. If so then the board would be the ones who ultimately are at fault.

But since no one knows exactly why such decisions have been made now for a number of seasons the whole thing is a moot point.

The only thing that is going to win Arsenal something is the players on the pitch. The current players were just not good enough over the course of the season.

Talk of anything else is just beating around the bush.

AnCapaillMor

spiritoftheseventies wrote:

Is Pat Rice there that long?

Apparently so with a 4 year break at Watford


Years Club App (Gls)*
1964-1980 Arsenal 397 (12)

Teams managed
1984-1996 Arsenal (Youth team coach)
Sept 1996 (Caretaker manager)
1996- Arsenal (Assistant manager)


There's nout wrong with PR. I'll get my head lobbed of hear but Dave O'leary would be a half decent choice. Arsenal legend and all.

L'prof

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

There's nout wrong with PR. I'll get my head lobbed of hear but Dave O'leary would be a half decent choice. Arsenal legend and all.

No, just no.

cson

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

You're talking about demoting/sacking a man who has spent 42 years at Arsenal and has been a fantastic servant to the club for reasons which, still as far as I can tell, amount to change for the sake of it. You say he isn't doing anything wrong per se but then say that things need freshening up - so they're stale - and removing Rice from post puts the blame at his feet. It's scapegoating.

Wenger is Pat Rice's manager also, and if he isn't doing a good job then it's Arsene's responsibility to replace him. If the team isn't performing acceptably on the pitch, and this is what this is about, then the person taken to task should be Wenger, and no-one else.

We could have plenty to lose by ejecting Pat Rice and bringing someone new in for the final season; the assertion that we have nothing to lose by removing him from his post basically says that the job he does is worthless and he deserves a helluva lot better than that. A new guy could come in and do a poor job. Rice knows the club better than anyone else I'd wager, he knows all the staff, the players, and I suspect he also knows a thing or to about football. Wenger & Rice have been a pretty damn good team for the club for 14 years and I really don't see the logic in rocking the boat when he is going into the final year of his contract (and may want another). Turmoil in the back-room next season could be hugely damaging.

That's a convincing argument to be fair.

x PyRo

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

There's nout wrong with PR. I'll get my head lobbed of hear but Dave O'leary would be a half decent choice. Grade "A" wanker and all.

FYP.

Corcs001

There's nout wrong with PR. I'll get my head lobbed of hear but Dave O'leary would be a half decent choice. Arsenal legend and all.

Arsenal legend and most capped player..... but no. Not now, not ever.

flahavaj

Given Arsena;'s emphasis on youth, he'd have way to much opportunity to go on about his "babies." Don't think I could handle any more of that sh*te.

Frisbee

Rice shouldn't be fired, he's done nothing wrong and is a great servant to the club.

There is also every possibility Arsene will walk next year. Rice is the perfect person to have there for the new man coming in. Knows the club inside out and can help the new manager settle in and get used to the way things are done at the club.

cson

There's a reason D'OL is not currently employed. If he was any good, someone would have had him at this stage.

Trashbat

O'Leary would be a terrible choice. Apart from the fact that he is annoying and has been out fo the game for some time, he also seems to have lost any love that existed for Arsenal.

As far as an assistant, what about Tony Adams? He was reasonable as Redknapps understudy at Pompey. He may not have what it takes to Manage, but he'd die for the club.

Saying that, I do agree that we shoudlnt scapegoat Rice. Our problem is players, not enough of them, simple as.

cson

Frisbee wrote: »

Rice shouldn't be fired, he's done nothing wrong and is a great servant to the club.

There is also every possibility Arsene will walk next year. Rice is the perfect person to have there for the new man coming in. Knows the club inside out and can help the new manager settle in and get used to the way things are done at the club.

My gut tells me he'll go if we're trophyless again. Which is a big ask as he only seems to value the PL and CL these days.

Corcs001

Just read the mangers e-mail there. He had high praise for Fabianski. Seems these days he's judging our keepers on whether or not they make a mistake. He was never tested in that match and Wengers comment worries me. Maybe he wont buy a keeper! Although he could be just saying that to keep the lads confidence up.

L'prof

Corcs001 wrote: »

Just read the mangers e-mail there. He had high praise for Fabianski. Seems these days he's judging our keepers on whether or not they make a mistake. He was never tested in that match and Wengers comment worries me. Maybe he wont buy a keeper! Although he could be just saying that to keep the lads confidence up.

I think he'll buy a first choice keeper. I was hoping he'd get rid of Almunia and Fabianski but, it looks like he'll be hanging onto Fabianski. I really hope you're wrong though and that he isn't planning on making Fabianski number 1!

Frisbee

jasonorr wrote: »

I really hope you're wrong though and that he isn't planning on making Fabianski number 1!

I don't even want to think about that...

gosplan

I'm not suggesting this, but rather pointing it out just to promote some discussion.

James, Myhill and Jensen will all be available now - obviously we wouldn't be particularly delighted with any of them but would any of them be a step up from Big Al and who would you take?

Frisbee

gosplan wrote: »

I'm not suggesting this, but rather pointing it out just to promote some discussion.

James, Myhill and Jensen will all be available now - obviously we wouldn't be particularly delighted with any of them but would any of them be a step up from Big Al and who would you take?

Wouldn't take any of them.

Myhill and Jensen flatter to deceive sometimes because they have so many shots taken on them in a game.

James will be 40(?) next year.

None of them should be targets for a football club with league and European aspirations.

gosplan

Trashbat wrote: »

O'Leary would be a terrible choice. Apart from the fact that he is annoying and has been out fo the game for some time, he also seems to have lost any love that existed for Arsenal.

As far as an assistant, what about Tony Adams? He was reasonable as Redknapps understudy at Pompey. He may not have what it takes to Manage, but he'd die for the club.

Saying that, I do agree that we shoudlnt scapegoat Rice. Our problem is players, not enough of them, simple as.

I would be simply horrified if Arsenal replaced Wenger with anything other than a manager who has a proven track record of winning things at the highest level.

The club, the stadium, the resources - there's only about 10 people in the world that are worthy of a chance at the helm.

Hiddink FTW!!!

Trashbat

gosplan wrote: »

I would be simply horrified if Arsenal replaced Wenger with anything other than a manager who has a proven track record of winning things at the highest level.

The club, the stadium, the resources - there's only about 10 people in the world that are worthy of a chance at the helm.

Hiddink FTW!!!

Agreed,

I was talking about a replacement for Rice (not that i believe its needed).

My worry about replacing Wenger is that i believe we need continuity in a manager. We dont have the financial power of Chelsea to hold down players in periods of managerial instability. If we got Hiddink, would he stay for a long period?

Should we aim lower in the interest of continuity?

Paleface

I don't want Wenger to leave. I simply want him to have players at his disposal who can win things.

If he just walks out at the end of next season I'll be shocked and gutted.

I just can't see anyone out there better than him.

Corcs001

gosplan wrote: »

I'm not suggesting this, but rather pointing it out just to promote some discussion.

James, Myhill and Jensen will all be available now - obviously we wouldn't be particularly delighted with any of them but would any of them be a step up from Big Al and who would you take?

None of those would be near good enough imo. Jensen and James are prone to as many mistakes as Almunia and Fabianski.

Sorensen would be a great choice I think.