English Premier League Superthread 2009/10

Smegball

Funny the way so many people writing off United and condemning us to third!
Write off United at your peril folks...

Headshot

Smegball wrote: »

Funny the way so many people writing off United and condemning us to third!
Write off United at your peril folks...

isnt it always the way

can't win the league with kids- utd proved that wrong
RVN sold,whose going to score the goals now - utd proved that wrong again

i think saf knows his players

SlickRic

while nobody should right utd off obviously, i still wouldn't be overly confident.

valencia has to hit the ground running and owen needs to stay fit. macheda and welbeck need to step up a level, and giggs needs to keep those legs going for another year. scholes finding some form would also help.

if you're AF you can know your players all you like, but if he can't get in the quality he wants or needs it doesn't matter.

phil brown knows his players; doesn't mean he's going to win anything.

jesus_thats_gre

Smegball wrote: »

Funny the way so many people writing off United and condemning us to third!
Write off United at your peril folks...

Headshot wrote: »

isnt it always the way

can't win the league with kids- utd proved that wrong
RVN sold,whose going to score the goals now - utd proved that wrong again

i think saf knows his players

Can both of you at least partially understand why someone whould think that United might fair slightly worse this season than they did last season considering the players that they have lost and who they have replaced them with? If you then compare that to what their nearest competitors have done SO FAR, can you also see why some might think that United might finish a few points behind them this season as oppossed to a few points ahead like last season?

And yes, AF knows his player and is the best manager of his generation but he also knows that you cannot reasonably expect to win every season. I know you will find it hard to believe but if you check the stats, you will see that AF hasn't won the league in every season that he participated in.

The cost of talent this summer, fairly few quality players being available and the fact that he has just equalled Liverpool's number of titles, could mean that he is happy enough not to go all out this season in the league and maybe bag another European Cup.

United seem to be sitting on a **** load of cash. If go a spend a chunk of it soon, I will put them favourites to win the league. If Liverpool loose Alonso, I will move United ahead of them. If Chelsea suffer a major injury to Lampard, Essien or Drogba, I will move United or Liverpool to the top. No one is writing United off, they are just calling it as they see it at the moment.


You don't need to get so defensive and uptight about it. It's like bumping into some drunk scumbag on a night out and no matter how much you apologise or explain that it was an accident, all he wants to do is start a fight with you.

therecklessone

Headshot wrote: »

i think saf knows his players

Indeed, but he is not infallible.

jesus_thats_gre

therecklessone wrote: »

Indeed, but he is not infallible.

Indeed..

5starpool

mayordenis wrote: »

Do you have those in order? or just seperated into groups that could end in any part of their group??

It started out as a grouping for the bottom 2 groups, but then I arranged them in the order I thought. It is still a lottery though of course in the bottom 14

Morzadec

Smegball wrote: »

Funny the way so many people writing off United and condemning us to third!
Write off United at your peril folks...

I put you down as 3rd but I'm by no means writing you off. Wouldn't be surprised if you won. As i said in my post I think it's very very close up there and it could come down to luck with injuries.

If we lose Alonso I would reasses my opinion, depending on replacement bought.

Would agree with much of what SlicRic posted above. I have Arsenal down as 4th but I'm not ruling them out either

Boggles

United to win it easier than last year.

Best defense + inability to finish addressed.

4 new senior players this season, Hargreaves, Owen, Valencia & Brown.

They have lost Ronaldo & Tevez, can't be ignored, system will change though, the attack will be the focus not just one person. Still the strongest squad in league

---

Liverpool havn't addressed their weakness, nothing out there available at the moment to replace Alonso. Rafa under severe pressure to deliver something this year, bad start and there will be shouts for his head.

---

Ancelotti is a cup specialist was brought in to win the CL, will try it to the detrement of the league.

---

Arsenal just sold one of the best strikers in the league. Havn't addressed their weakness either, if anything they have gone backwards.

Thats how I see it here and now.

Liam O

Boggles wrote: »

system will change though

Exactly, people seem to think that we are going to play the same way as we did with Ronaldo doing whatever he wanted. Now we have 2 wingers whose sole job it is to set up Owen, Berba and Rooney. At least one midfielder will also be given a lot more license to get forward (hopefully Carrick). When we had Ronaldo we needed other players to play defensively to accommodate him in our system, now we don't have that problem. Expect to see more of a short, quick passing game from United this season with a lot more width.

5starpool

Nani and Anderson have been nearly consistently rubbish so far. What makes utd fans so certain that they will step up in terms of performances this season? Also, Valencia might well live up to expectations, but he would certainly not be the first big money signing to take a while to settle. Of course utd cluld click straight away, and Owen could stay fit, and Berbatov might perform better than he did in the final few months of last season, and Nani might actually string a few good performances together, and Hargreaves might get fit.

That is a lot of ifs and mights though. Refusing to contemplate that utd might not perform well enough to in the league is a bit crap silly though in fairness.

Boggles, do you think utd will ger more than 90 points this coming season, or do you just think that noone else will get close to that mark, leaving utd easy winners on a low-mid 80's points total?

Headshot

5starpool wrote: »

Nani and Anderson have been nearly consistently rubbish so far. What makes utd fans so certain that they will step up in terms of performances this season? Also, Valencia might well live up to expectations, but he would certainly not be the first big money signing to take a while to settle. Of course utd cluld click straight away, and Owen could stay fit, and Berbatov might perform better than he did in the final few months of last season, and Nani might actually string a few good performances together, and Hargreaves might get fit.

That is a lot of ifs and mights though. Refusing to contemplate that utd might not perform well enough to in the league is a bit crap silly though in fairness.

Boggles, do you think utd will ger more than 90 points this coming season, or do you just think that noone else will get close to that mark, leaving utd easy winners on a low-mid 80's points total?

ando was not consistently rubbish he had some very good games,so your dead wrong there

fergie admits he did not use Dimitar Berbatov correctly last season,so i expect berba to really come on next season


loosing Ronaldo is also a blessing in disguise in some ways

5starpool

Anderson was better in his first season than last, and was never brilliant. Also, saying that the source of around 1/3 of your goals over the last 2 seasons is never a blessing in disguise, no matter how you want to dress it up, and when you take into account Tevezs goals as well,t hen utd have lost the source of around half their goals in all competitions over the last 2 years.

Headshot

5starpool wrote: »

Anderson was better in his first season than last, and was never brilliant. Also, saying that the source of around 1/3 of your goals over the last 2 seasons is never a blessing in disguise, no matter how you want to dress it up, and when you take into account Tevezs goals as well,t hen utd have lost the source of around half their goals in all competitions over the last 2 years.

people tend to forget ando was recently came back from a broken leg when he came to utd

so he was superb in the 1st half of the season but 2nd half he was poor

and he's been unlucky with injuries recently and he finally got his 1st preseason with utd this summer iirc

there's alot more to come from ando,next season will be his biggest at utd to date

tevez goals last season was 15,owen will outscore that

herbieflowers

I think United may struggle this year. A lot is resting on players like Nani and Anderson to finally show some consistency. Scholes and Giggs can only really be seen as peripheral players, and I just don't feel that the squad has enough (particulalry if Hrgreaves emains absent) to do it. It remains to be seen (naturally) whether or not Owen and Valencia can cut it at the highest level. And it may take some time for the team to adapt to playing without a talisman like Ronaldo. Plus it's hard in this day and age for a team to stay top of the pile year in year out.

Liverpool ought to build on the great strides they made last term. I'd worry (well, not really ) if they lost Alonso, he showed his class last season. But tbh Rafa is generally good in the market and I don't see their hope resting solely on one player (as good as he is) - though if they lose Mascherano too I can't see them winning the league.

I think Chelsea might do it this year. They've an excellent squad, and now they have a manager with the nous to get the most out of them (though similar claims were made about Scolari...). Malouda, Drogba, Anelka, a fit Joe Cole - they have an abundance of talent and are the best equipped of the biggest sides to do it imo.

Boggles

5starpool wrote:

Boggles, do you think utd will ger more than 90 points this coming season, or do you just think that noone else will get close to that mark, leaving utd easy winners on a low-mid 80's points total?

I fully expect them to get in and around the 90 points the last 3 victories have been 89,87,90.

As ever they will lose 4/5 matches, United just don't do draws, it's the reason they win the league.

Also unlike alot of my Man United buddies, Ando doesn't do it for me, he is young though. So I will be delighted to be proved wrong.

Nani, meh, has it all, time to prove this season.


Alot of people forget United had to go away to the other side of the world at Christmas last season and still gave all trophies a rattle.

Even taking my United Head off, tis fooking crazy that so many people are relegating them to 3rd!

Boggles

herbieflowers wrote: »

I think Chelsea might do it this year. They've an excellent squad, and now they have a manager with the nous to get the most out of them (though similar claims were made about Scolari...). Malouda, Drogba, Anelka, a fit Joe Cole - they have an abundance of talent and are the best equipped of the biggest sides to do it imo.

The premier league is about brute attrition, there is nothing to suggest to me Ancelotti will be successful in his first season, he is just not that sort of manager.

Like Rafa I think he can plan and win any one off game, the 38 games of the premier league is a different beast!

CHD

Love the United fans optimism. Oh how i'd love to see you's crash and burn but you's won't. You will have some fight this year though.

Headshot

CHD wrote: »

Love the United fans optimism. Oh how i'd love to see you's crash and burn but you's won't. You will have some fight this year though.

I do fear chelsea

if gus was still there id say ye be the favourites for the league but ye have a great squad still

it's between utd and chelsea for the league I'd say

Boggles

CHD wrote: »

Love the United fans optimism. Oh how i'd love to see you's crash and burn but you's won't. You will have some fight this year though.

Whats your take on the new manager?

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

United to win it easier than last year.

Best defense + inability to finish addressed.

no proof whatsoever that this has been addressed. you've lost your main goal threat (by far). changing a system is not as easy as your making out it to be.

Boggles wrote: »

4 new senior players this season, Hargreaves, Owen, Valencia & Brown. .

owen hasn't done it for years. hargreaves needs to hit the ground running, which is easier said than done after the amount of time out he's had. but yes, more senior players will help. i'll concede that.

Boggles wrote: »

They have lost Ronaldo & Tevez, can't be ignored, system will change though, the attack will be the focus not just one person. Still the strongest squad in league .

come off it. chelsea's is the strongest, and easily so.

Boggles wrote: »

Liverpool havn't addressed their weakness, nothing out there available at the moment to replace Alonso. Rafa under severe pressure to deliver something this year, bad start and there will be shouts for his head.

once alonso's money comes in, we'll see. rafa has not ended his spending by any means, especially if as looks likely alonso goes. also, attacking wingbacks were our weakness...insua is a year more mature, and glen johnson certainly addresses that issue.

we'll be close.

Boggles wrote: »

Arsenal just sold one of the best strikers in the league. Havn't addressed their weakness either, if anything they have gone backwards.

can't argue with this. i worry for arsenal if they don't bring in some top quality reinforcements.

as i've said, i'm surprised utd are being relegated to third by so many people. but then again, i wouldn't be as overly confident as you seem to be. giggs and scholes are a year older (meaning probably less games and less effective). ando still has a lot to prove. hargreaves still has to prove his fitness. ronaldo is gone. a new system has to be adopted.

logically, there is more reason to think it will be more difficult this year than last. chelsea wil be far stronger. liverpool can't be judged until their spending's done, along with the alonso saga ending. same with arsenal.

it should be one of the most interesting races in years.

herbieflowers

Boggles wrote: »

The premier league is about brute attrition, there is nothing to suggest to me Ancelotti will be successful in his first season, he is just not that sort of manager.

Like Rafa I think he can plan and win any one off game, the 38 games of the premier league is a different beast!

So the manager has to possess "brute attrition"? What does that even mean? That sentence doesn't make any sense!

Chelsea have the structure in place, they need a manager to put all the pieces on proper order. Like Hiddink did for them last season. I think Ancelotti is the man. He's won titles both at home and abroad for fun, has a wealth of experience - there's no reason in my mind, aside from not having managed in England before, to suggest he won't be a success for Chelsea.

JPA

herbieflowers wrote: »

So the manager has to possess "brute attrition"? What does that even mean? That sentence doesn't make any sense!

Chelsea have the structure in place, they need a manager to put all the pieces on proper order. Like Hiddink did for them last season. I think Ancelotti is the man. He's won titles both at home and abroad for fun, has a wealth of experience - there's no reason in my mind, aside from not having managed in England before, to suggest he won't be a success for Chelsea.

I think what boggles means is winning the league is all about consistency.

As for Ancelotti winning titles at home and abroad? How about 1 league title in his managerial career?

ShooterSF

CHD wrote: »

Love the United fans optimism. Oh how i'd love to see you's crash and burn but you's won't. You will have some fight this year though.

To be fair we're the one set of fans that are more entitled to it than most. That's not a dig at other club's fans it's just that I sit through this every summer where I have to listen Newcastle (Not this summer :pac:), Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea fans and one crazy City fan (Old man) tell me United have no chance this season and their club or one they dislike less than United are gonna win the league. I actually don't like the summer for this reason along with the lack of football.
That's not to say that say all people are like this, just enough to have me nearly doubting our chances instead of basking in our title win from the previous May.

Liam O

herbieflowers wrote: »

So the manager has to possess "brute attrition"? What does that even mean? That sentence doesn't make any sense!

Chelsea have the structure in place, they need a manager to put all the pieces on proper order. Like Hiddink did for them last season. I think Ancelotti is the man. He's won titles both at home and abroad for fun, has a wealth of experience - there's no reason in my mind, aside from not having managed in England before, to suggest he won't be a success for Chelsea.

While Chelsea will no doubt be up there this season, what was everyone saying about Scolari last season? The aging team have gotten a year older and need Essien to perform to the nest of his ability to win IMO. With Essien and Lampard fit they'll mount a serious challenge, however anything happens to either of them and they don't have adequate replacements for their system IMO

5starpool

Ancelotti is the one great unknown about Chelsea obviously, but if the squad is united behind him then they will not be far away. I remember in October last year that they were favourites for the title, and at the time rightly so. Their bad run of form coincided I think with Essiens absence, and the importance and brilliance of him cannot be underestimated. More than Lampard, Drogba, Anelka or Terry, to my mind he is the single most important player in the Chelsea team.

On paper, Chelsea definitely have the strongest squad, but this alone does not win anything of course.

Liam O

5starpool wrote: »

Ancelotti is the one great unknown about Chelsea obviously, but if the squad is united behind him then they will not be far away. I remember in October last year that they were favourites for the title, and at the time rightly so. Their bad run of form coincided I think with Essiens absence, and the importance and brilliance of him cannot be underestimated. More than Lampard, Drogba, Anelka or Terry, to my mind he is the single most important player in the Chelsea team.

On paper, Chelsea definitely have the strongest squad, but this alone does not win anything of course.

No they don't. The difference makers in that team are past their prime and wont put in a consistent season imo.

5starpool

Liam O wrote: »

No they don't. The difference makers in that team are past their prime and wont put in a consistent season imo.

I presume you are saying that utd have the strongest squad then? I respectfully disagree.

Fromvert

Liam O wrote: »

No they don't. The difference makers in that team are past their prime and wont put in a consistent season imo.

I'm assuming you think Man U have the strongest squad. You say Chelsea's difference makers are past their prime and wont be consistent. A quick glance at a Utd's squad the same can be said.

Giggs, Scholes, VDS - past their prime.

Nani, Anderson, Owen, Berbatov, Valencia - still to prove their consistency and in Nani and Anderson case still young but yet to prove they can make the step up. Berbatov has undoubted class but whether he will do it consistently, we will have to wait and see.

Hargreaves - yet to prove he can continually stay fit.


IMO Chelsea have the best squad and it will just depend on how well Ancelotti adapts to the English game and if he does I think they will pip United and Liverpool to the league with Arsenal not to far behind.

Liam O

Fromvert wrote: »

I'm assuming you think Man U have the strongest squad. You say Chelsea's difference makers are past their prime and wont be consistent. A quick glance at a Utd's squad the same can be said.

Giggs, Scholes, VDS - past their prime.

Nani, Anderson, Owen, Berbatov, Valencia - still to prove their consistency and in Nani and Anderson case still young but yet to prove they can make the step up. Berbatov has undoubted class but whether he will do it consistently, we will have to wait and see.

Hargreaves - yet to prove he can continually stay fit.


IMO Chelsea have the best squad and it will just depend on how well Ancelotti adapts to the English game and if he does I think they will pip United and Liverpool to the league with Arsenal not to far behind.

Giggs and Scholes aren't first choice. Owen is third choice. I would place Anderson as third choice CM. Berbatov will be better this season-the team will play to his style. Nani hasn't had a consistent run of games in the team since his first season where his stats are very good. VDS is the same age as Friedal and Schwarzer, they seem to be doing fine and so is he. What does Valencia have to prove? He's been very consistent for Wigan. What tells me that United have the better squad? Well, this team minus Ronaldo and Tevez have won the league 3 years running! It's weird how United have gone from being the best squad in world football before the CL final to being an average team because we lost 1 first team player. In case you haven't realised it wasn't United's forward play that won the league last year, it was the defense which is still the same. United played some pretty woeful defensive football last season which meant a lot of boring 1-0 games. To tell you the truth, United were 1 dimensional last season. This season a change of style will reap benefits imo. Without Ronaldo constantly demanding the ball when the team are stuck in a rut, we will incorporate a quick passing wide game with orthodox wingers which will provide the strikers with better service.

Xavi6

5starpool wrote: »

I presume you are saying that utd have the strongest squad then? I respectfully disagree.

Nah I think he meant City

angel01

I really hope Burnley survive, would love to see them do well

SlickRic

Liam O wrote: »

What does Valencia have to prove?

to be fair, a lot of what you said is potentially spot on in terms of the system change. it's not a give-in though, as i'd assume you'd realise. Berba needs to get his finger out. As does Ando. Owen does too, and needs to stay fit. Giggs needs to keep the fairytale end of his career going. Scholes finding form would also help a lot. this could all happen though. a lot of ifs and buts you'll find however.

but you ask what does Valencia have to prove? everything. it's very different playing for Wigan than Utd. very very different. he has to prove himself like any new signing.

angel01

SlickRic wrote: »

to be fair, a lot of what you said is potentially spot on in terms of the system change. it's not a give-in though, as i'd assume you'd realise. Berba needs to get his finger out. As does Ando. Owen does too, and needs to stay fit. Giggs needs to keep the fairytale end of his career going. Scholes finding form would also help a lot. this could all happen though. a lot of ifs and buts you'll find however.

but you ask what does Valencia have to prove? everything. it's very different playing for Wigan than Utd. very very different. he has to prove himself like any new signing.

I think that yes he will prove himself but not many are expecting too much so he can be himself and surprise everyone :cool::D

SlickRic

angel01 wrote: »

I think that yes he will prove himself but not many are expecting too much so he can be himself and surprise everyone :cool::D

true, but he has to be part of filling a huge void. not a guarantee. and if he doesn't, there ain't much left unless you include nani who himself needs to get his finger out at some stage.

i'm not trying to be overly critical you'll understand. i'm just trying to get across that there are more ifs and buts this season about utd imo than previous ones. it could all work out fine, but there's a lot more for their rivals to maybe feel a bit more optimistic about.

Kirby

Liam O wrote: »

With Essien and Lampard fit they'll mount a serious challenge, however anything happens to either of them and they don't have adequate replacements for their system IMO

How is this any different to the other 3 though?

Gerrard and torres get injured, their season is done.
Fabregas and RVP/Arshavin get injured, their season is done.
Carrick and Rooney get injured, their season is done.

Really, they all have replacements, but the replacements arent at the same level. You cant pick and choose your criticisms. Any team will struggle if they lose their best players.

Utd are already weak in the middle. If they lost carrick and fletcher to a long term injury, who would replace them? Scholes is long since past it, Anderson has only shown flashes. Hargreaves can't stay fit.

The midfield is an area that chelsea are flush in. The fact that they are bidding for pirlo is taking the piss tbh. They dont even need him. Ballack, Lampard, Essein, Cole, Mikel, Tosic, deco, etc. I would argue they have the best cover regarding injuries.

But as I said, any team will struggle if they lose their best players. It's not a good reason to count a team out on the premise that "if" they get injuries they can't cope. Who could?

flahavaj

Tosic has signed for Chelsea?:eek:

Liam O

flahavaj wrote: »

Tosic has signed for Chelsea?:eek:

damn I knew we couldn't keep him

Tbh, Essien and Lampard are the only 2 top class players in that Chelsea midfield and when Essien was injured last season Chelsea weren't the same. Ballack and Deco aren't near the level they were at even 2 years ago, Mikel is an average player, Cole doesn't play CM.

jesus_thats_gre

Liam O wrote: »

damn I knew we couldn't keep him

Tbh, Essien and Lampard are the only 2 top class players in that Chelsea midfield and when Essien was injured last season Chelsea weren't the same. Ballack and Deco aren't near the level they were at even 2 years ago, Mikel is an average player, Cole doesn't play CM.

They only have two top class players in midfield? ****, Chelsea are truely ****ed so!!!

All this while defending United's title credentials. The same United who have no top class players in the central of midfield.

Headshot

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

All this while defending United's title credentials. The same United who have no top class players in the central of midfield.

lolz

3 PL's in a row and still no world class CM

mg what are we going to do

SlickRic

Liam O wrote: »

Tbh, Essien and Lampard are the only 2 top class players in that Chelsea midfield and when Essien was injured last season Chelsea weren't the same. Ballack and Deco aren't near the level they were at even 2 years ago, Mikel is an average player, Cole doesn't play CM.

and what happens if carrick and fletcher get injured (who aren't near the level of lampard and essien by the way)?

giggs, despite the POTY award, only started a dozen games. scholes has gone downhill quickly. ando's proved nothing yet.

id FAR prefer chelsea's options in midfield thanks.

utd, imo, won't even trump chelsea in defence this year if carvalho stays fit. and i'd prefer alex/ivanovic to jonny evans/JOS as reserve CB.

if ancelotti, and it's a big if, can get them playing properly in the new system, then they're favourites in my book.

Unearthly

flahavaj wrote: »

Tosic has signed for Chelsea?:eek:

bet he suddenly doesn't rate Tosic now that he realises he is a Man Utd player, not Chelsea.

Headshot

SlickRic wrote: »

and what happens if carrick and fletcher get injured (who aren't near the level of lampard and essien by the way)?

giggs, despite the POTY award, only started a dozen games. scholes has gone downhill quickly. ando's proved nothing yet.

id FAR prefer chelsea's options in midfield thanks.

utd, imo, won't even trump chelsea in defence this year if carvalho stays fit. and i'd prefer alex/ivanovic to jonny evans/JOS as reserve CB.

if ancelotti, and it's a big if, can get them playing properly in the new system, then they're favourites in my book.

ando,gibson and scholes

and james will get a call up to the bench possibly

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

3 PL's in a row and still no world class CM

listing off trophies does not define a 'world class midfield' and you know it.

Headshot

SlickRic wrote: »

listing off trophies does not define a 'world class midfield' and you know it.

doesnt matter

if our CM is so bad we'd be winning nothing

the likes of carrick is very very underrated

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

ando,gibson and scholes

and james will get a call up to the bench possibly

i'd prefer chelsea's options. easily. and if you're honest, i'd imagine so would you.

utd are still quite impressive enough in midfield, but it's not a patch on chelsea's options; both in quality and depth.

SlickRic

Headshot wrote: »

if our CM is so bad we'd be winning nothing

the likes of carrick is very very underrated

i never said it was bad. my goodness. it's just not a huge strength like it once was.

carrick is underrated by non-utd fans, yes, but he is overrated by utd fans. the truth is somewhere in the middle as always.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

listing off trophies does not define a 'world class midfield' and you know it.

Likewise, having a world class midfield is no guarantee of success. Having a better midfield on paper (which Chelsea definitely do) is a moot point and as the last few years have shown, is no guarantee of Premiership or CL success.

jesus_thats_gre

Headshot wrote: »

lolz

3 PL's in a row and still no world class CM

mg what are we going to do

United do not have any top class midfielders. They have midfielders that are better than 80% of the opposition have but they do not have anyone that comes near Lampard, Essien, Alonso, Mascherano, Fabregas, Gerrard, Ireland, Xavi, Iniesta, Kaka, Pirlo, Di Rossi and go knows who else.

Hargreaves would probably get into that list but he has only played a total of 1650 minutes in the PL in the past two years and by all accounts, will be out to December. He has also only started a total of 60 league games in the last 5 seasons.

You don't need top class central midfielders to win the league though so it's nothing to be too concerned about. United had it in the positions that counted against weaker opposition.

Headshot

SlickRic wrote: »

i never said it was bad. my goodness. it's just not a huge strength like it once was.

carrick is underrated by non-utd fans, yes, but he is overrated by utd fans. the truth is somewhere in the middle as always.

it hasnt been at huge strength for a long time now

the likes of scholes hasnt performed to his high standards since the eye problems and still has the eye problems but he has learned to live with it