Do you respect the views of the religious?

I've often heard/seen an atheist saying to a theist that they respect the theist's views and also respect them for holding religious views.

I used to, but I can't say that I do any more. I respect their views alright, but not more so than any other moderate view which a person could hold. Do I respect a theist for having a particular view? No. I'm not apologetic about it either. But I suppose that's because, lately, I've been leaning more to the side of anti-theism.

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

Borneo Fnctn

I respect their right to hold their beliefs.

Red Hand

It depends. I regard their beliefs as mostly harmless, like believing in Santa and don't especially care what people think as long as it doesn't effect me. Its only when I am forced to endure something that is inspired by something religious that I would verge towards anti-theism.

jackpalance

jackpalance wrote: »

I respect their right to hold their beliefs.

That's how I feel, too.

But I've often seen instances where somewhat apologetic atheists say that they respect a theist for holding theistic views. I've no doubt that that's an exception among atheists, though.

Another general question, are you apologetic when talking to a theist incase you "hurt" their views?

5uspect

jackpalance wrote: »

I respect their right to hold their beliefs.

+1, no more.

robindch

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

As Jack and co said above, one should respect the right of the individual to hold a view, but that certainly doesn't imply respect for the view itself, or the holder.

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Another general question, are you apologetic when talking to a theist incase you "hurt" their views?

If the religious person is nice about their religion and doesn't let it intrude when it's not necessary or asked for, then I think most atheists will react in kind and keep quiet too and avoid as much offense as possible.

However, many religious don't do that, and some people tend to bring it up ad nauseam, in which case it's more difficult not only to keep quiet, but less amusingly, to avoid appearing to offend the holder of the view being expressed. It's of some little consolation to note that the religion has, in all likelihood, evolved this way to use this embarrassment to its own memetic advantage.

But all the same, it's still a pain in the ass to have to deal with accusations of being closed-minded and arrogant for something as simple as voicing one's belief -- in suitably non-offensive language -- that their invisible friend is invisible because he's almost certainly not there.

Húrin

What does it mean to respect a view? I think that religious people's views should be respected in the sense that holding such a view does not inherently make the person an intellectual or moral inferior.

herya

I respect every religious opinion (equally), as long as it's not forced on me and does not influence my non-religious life.

Ickle Magoo

Do I respect the views of the religious? No.

Respect, to me, infers there is some kind of excellence or quality that demands a greater consideration. I have respect for many religious people because of their other qualities but definitely not specifically for their theistic views.

With regards to hurting peoples views; I tend to avoid discussions about religion with theists unless I know they are perfectly happy to discuss or have their views challenged. If someone specifically asks me my position then I give it honestly & unapologetically.

TPD

I'm of a similar mind to many here. I respect their right to have their own belief, but I do not respect the belief itself. I wouldn't press atheism on anyone, and wouldn't bring it up in a religious conversation unless specifically asked. I would happily debate for hours with a willing and able theist though.

Tar.Aldarion

I respect a right to hold a view, not a view. If I feel strongly about a view like religion or being veggie, no I don't respect your view, I think it's retarded, but I'll fight to the death for you to have the right to hold it.

Sharik

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

I regard their beliefs as mostly harmless

That is the main issue. As long as anything is harmless, I'll respect it.

However, considering that by far the biggest problem of our time is overpopulation, the position of the main religions on the issue of population control is anything but harmless. It is dangerous, unethical, irresponsible and ultimately criminal.

The same applies to their positions on human rights issues in general and the right to a dignified death, life and sexuality in particular.

I tolerate them as I tolerate the system I live in, that is because I don't have a choice. But respect them? Not more that I respect any other unreasonable, spoiled by the perks of civilization domesticated mammal.

The above is not meant and should not insult anybody. I love animals. But I do consider myself to be Sapient and, unfortunately, I recognize more of this quality in a average elephant than I do in the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church.

pH

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do I respect the views of the religious? No.

Respect, to me, infers there is some kind of excellence or quality that demands a greater consideration. I have respect for many religious people because of their other qualities but definitely not specifically for their theistic views.

That's because the word 'respect' has two common usages, one usage is "Admire or hold in high opinion", as opposed to the other definition which means "Give consideration or pay attention to", as in "I respect the speed limit when driving".

So the OP could be asking one of two questions.

Do we admire the views of the religious?
or do we pay attention to them and modify our behaviour accordingly?

I'd answer no to both of them.

Sam Vimes

Húrin wrote: »

What does it mean to respect a view? I think that religious people's views should be respected in the sense that holding such a view does not inherently make the person an intellectual or moral inferior.

What you're talking about is respecting the person, not the view

Handsome Bob

I respect the fact that not every religious person is a fundamentalist/zealot. I respect the fact that a lot of religious people can keep their views to themselves. I respect the fact that religion gives people strength to keep going when everything around them is falling a part. Finally, I respect the fact that religion can inspire good.

What I don't respect is a judgemental fundamentalist taking the word of an ancient book written in very different times literally and using it to make other people feel inferior, or using it to incite hatred towards people that don't deserve such horrible treatment.

Mena

Unfortunately I've gotten to the stage where I am repulsed by these beliefs.

Not only can I not respect the beliefs, but I cannot bring myself to respect the person holding them either.

fitz0

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

No I don't respect the views of the religious or the person on the basis that they hold those views. Why would I respect such views? Because I should, because I'm expected to? How are these views in any way deserving of my admiration? I don't respect someones choice in political party, or their favourite colour so I'm not going to break out the kid gloves for this.

On the other hand I can respect a person who holds religious views but not on the basis that they hold them. One of my best friends is quite religious and I respect him greatly, not on the basis of his views but because he's a really sound guy. His views are none of my business since he generally keeps them to himself. He has no reason to respect my lack of belief, just as I have none to respect his.

Zillah

Mena wrote: »

Unfortunately I've gotten to the stage where I am repulsed by these beliefs.

Not only can I not respect the beliefs, but I cannot bring myself to respect the person holding them either.

Hey there contemptuous buddy.

dibirish

if people wish to worship a god then that is their business just as it is the right of a person to live according to their sexual preference . The problem is when religion is forced through law and the education system. As a person who left Ireland 15 years ago I am saddened that religion is still force fed in both in law and education . What will it take to break this stranglehold?

JimiTime

I always find it bizarre that people say they 'respect your opinion' when they hold a complete opposite one As others have said, respect that someone has the right to their own opinion, grand. Also, if someone has an opinion that so disgusts you (Like Mena and Zillah have said), then it would be very difficult to respect that person.

Dades

Yeah, the idea of respecting a 'contrary opinion' is a bit meaningless.

Coriolanus

I used to be more ... tolerant, I guess. Over the last few years though, I've grown to have about as much respect for the religious as I would for a grown adult who believes in Atlanteans, Fairies or the Tooth Fairy.

JimiTime

Nevore wrote: »

I used to be more ... tolerant, I guess. Over the last few years though, I've grown to have about as much respect for the religious as I would for a grown adult who believes in Atlanteans, Fairies or the Tooth Fairy.

How would this new found intolerance manifest itself? Or is it something you keep to yourself? Just curious.

Coriolanus

Well, I don't go out proselytising or anything and I certainly would never be the first to bring religion into a discussion.
Basically where I might have held my tongue amongst family and friends in a discussion on religion before, I don't feel I should stay quiet now. They're the people I love after all.

The Mad Hatter

JimiTime wrote: »

How would this new found intolerance manifest itself? Or is it something you keep to yourself? Just curious.

The common militant atheist response seems to be to either write a book or start a blog.

Coriolanus

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

The common militant atheist response seems to be to either write a book or start a blog.

Yeah, I forgot about that. Hit me up at www.omgreligionsuxxorz.ie
A collection of my sagely posts is being published in September. :rolleyes:

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

Unfortunately I've gotten to the stage where I am repulsed by these beliefs.

Not only can I not respect the beliefs, but I cannot bring myself to respect the person holding them either.

What, no matter how much of a good or otherwise admirable person they may be?

Mena

Húrin wrote: »

What, no matter how much of a good or otherwise admirable person they may be?

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

Benhonan

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I respect a right to hold a view, not a view. If I feel strongly about a view like religion or being veggie, no I don't respect your view, I think it's retarded, but I'll fight to the death for you to have the right to hold it.

What's so bad about vegetarianism? I'm not a veggie myself, but if someone makes a lifestyle and health decision which is proven to be hugely environmentally beneficial, what is it that makes you consider it retarded? Seems to me like the judgmental, ignorant attitudes a lot of us have come to associate with religious fundamentalism.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

So do you ignore books, articles and viewpoints of religous people?
I presume your employer is not religous?
When you were in school/college, did you ignore the teachings of religous teachers/lecturers..?

Do you say the above merely for effect or do you actually practice what you preach?

raah!

Two people could start from two different first principles and use fine arguments to arrive at opposite views. In such a case it wouldn't be ridiculous to say "I respect your opposite opinion, and that's a fine string of argument". I feel it is important to see how someone arrived at a viewpoint, and from where.

Húrin

Mena wrote: »

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

On this forum I hear that Ireland has a "religious majority". If this is so then putting your discriminatory attitude into practice would be impossible. How do you get around it?

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

So do you ignore books, articles and viewpoints of religous people?
I presume your employer is not religous?
When you were in school/college, did you ignore the teachings of religous teachers/lecturers..?

Do you say the above merely for effect or do you actually practice what you preach?

1. If they start with the whole zany religious thing in the book then yes, I usually discard it. I don't go out of my way to find out if they're religious before reading though.

2. I have no idea. It's kept out of the workplace, but I would leave if it became an issue, like I did my last position.

3. I have no clue if any of them were/are religious. Like they should, they kept it to themselves and out of everyones face. No, I didn't go to school/college in Ireland, not sure I would have survived that!

Húrin wrote: »

On this forum I hear that Ireland has a "religious majority". If this is so then putting your discriminatory attitude into practice would be impossible. How do you get around it?

I keep my views pretty much to myself and so far most people I deal with do the same, so it's never been an issue really. Besides, my views may hurt/anger some so I generally keep them to myself/remove myself from situations if needed. If they force the issue so will I, but I tend not to back down so prefer not to engage on the issue.

Religion doesn't really even register anywhere on my horizon at all, the first time I really encountered it in full force was when I moved to Ireland 10 years ago... I still find the entire concept bizarre.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

1. If they start with the whole zany religious thing in the book then yes, I usually discard it. I don't go out of my way to find out if they're religious before reading though.

2. I have no idea. It's kept out of the workplace, but I would leave if it became an issue, like I did my last position.

3. I have no clue if any of them were/are religious. Like they should, they kept it to themselves and out of everyones face. No, I didn't go to school/college in Ireland, not sure I would have survived that!

But I thought that you couldnt take anything they say seriously, not jut the religous stuff...? Surely if this is the case you would check if someone is religous before reading any of their output - because what is the point in reading the views of someone whose views on anything you canyttake seriously?

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

What does it mean to respect a view? I think that religious people's views should be respected in the sense that holding such a view does not inherently make the person an intellectual or moral inferior.

That doesn't really work. There are some very dumb religions and religious views out there, and equally some very immoral religions and religious views out there.

What would make a person an intellectual or moral inferior in your opinion?

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Surely if this is the case you would check if someone is religous before reading any of their output

That would just be obsessive.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

That would just be obsessive.

Fair enough, but if you genuinely didnt take anything a religous person says seriously, it would be an utter waste of time to read anything they put to paper.

I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Fair enough, but if you genuinely didnt take anything a religous person says seriously, it would be an utter waste of time to read anything they put to paper.

I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

You're entitled to that opinion sure.

drkpower

Mena; can you clarify your view. I'm a little confused by what appears to be an inconsistency in your position.

Can you take anything that a religous person say seriously or not?
Thanks.

Mena

Mena wrote: »

Not really, no. I just can't take anything they do or say seriously.

Not that hard, I said it here. Perhaps I should have said "I find it really hard to take anything...", perhaps that would have satisfied you.

drkpower

Mena wrote: »

Not that hard, I said it here. Perhaps I should have said "I find it really hard to take anything...", perhaps that would have satisfied you.

Well, that would have meant something a little bit different, Mena...

It's not about satisfying me, its about being consistent. As I said, if I didnt take anything that a class of people said seriously (or found it reallly hard to do), I cannot see why I would read anything they wrote. It would surely be pointless and a waste of my time.

But you dont bother to check if someone is religous prior to reading their output, even though, if you knew they were religous, you wouldnt take their output seriously. Im afraid, your position makes little sense and isnt very consistent.

You might want to have a little think about it before you articulate it in the future.

Mena

drkpower wrote: »

Well, that would have meant something a little bit different, Mena...

It's not about satisfying me, its about being consistent. As I said, if I didnt take anything that a class of people said seriously (or found it reallly hard to do), I cannot see why I would read anything they wrote. It would surely be pointless and a waste of my time.

But you dont bother to check if someone is religous prior to reading their output, even though, if you knew they were religous, you wouldnt take their output seriously. Im afraid, your position makes little sense and isnt very consistent.

You might want to have a little think about it before you articulate it in the future.

Since English isn't my first language, I think I articulated it very well. Does my position worry you that much that you need to pick at every point and harp on about it post after post?

How does not checking an author's life history and views on every subject before reading the content of their work make my views inconsistent?

I stand by my original assertion, I can't take people seriously if they hold religious views. Just because I've read something does not mean I have to agree with it nor the fact that I may disagree with an authors perspective means I would avoid their works, unless it was really dreary, yet you seem to think I should just ignore anything I don't agree with? Is this what you do? It's a very blinkered view to take.

I don't take a lot of things seriously, take Science Fiction for example. I still read it.

You say you'd not read anything if you thought you couldn't take the author seriously, I highly recommend you try it. It can enforce your own views or open you up to new ones.

And I think we're both dragging this thread way off topic. If you feel the need to continue, why not start another thread or PM me.

JimiTime

drkpower wrote: »

To Mena:
I suspect, given your answers, that there is a little bit of bluster in your earlier statement.

I got that myself.
Its a good example though of how I have no respect for the opinion. And the opinion is such that I would have little respect for the person holding it neither. (not trying to be offensive btw, i just think in the context of what is being discussed its a good example.) If in fact it was such a position and not just angst or bluster.

dvpower

LZ5by5 wrote: »

What I don't respect is a judgemental fundamentalist taking the word of an ancient book written in very different times literally and using it to make other people feel inferior, or using it to incite hatred towards people that don't deserve such horrible treatment.

Strangely, I tend to have a fair bit of respect for religious fundamentalists (the good ones, not the bad ones). If you believe in a personal God, who loves you and listens to your prayers and will grant you eternal live then it makes a great deal of sense to dedicate a good portion of this interim life to God. Its the people who believe in this God and then say 'Meh, whatever' that I wonder about.

Handsome Bob

dvpower wrote: »

Strangely, I tend to have a fair bit of respect for religious fundamentalists (the good ones, not the bad ones). If you believe in a personal God, who loves you and listens to your prayers and will grant you eternal live then it makes a great deal of sense to dedicate a good portion of this interim life to God. Its the people who believe in this God and then say 'Meh, whatever' that I wonder about.

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

dvpower

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

Poor fundamentalists, they get a bad press. People think they are all off planning suicide missions.

What I mean is, those religious that are not of the a la carte persuasion.

Zillah

LZ5by5 wrote: »

You gotta help me out here man, what is a "good" fundamentalist?

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

I'd also like to say that I have a strange sort of respect for fundamentalists...their position is much better theology than moderates.

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

Ah I see, I only tend to use the word fundamentalist when referring to homophobia or violence etc etc inspired by religion.

I'd also like to say that I have a strange sort of respect for fundamentalists...their position is much better theology than moderates.

You're only saying that because the fundamentalists make it a lot easier for you to abuse religion. :pac:

Zillah

No really, fundamentalists have an internally consistent belief system. It's objectively ludicrous but at least it makes sense internally. Moderate religious people have beliefs that make no sense objectively or internally.

In that regard I respect fundamentalists more (or disrespect less, I suppose).

freedom of info

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I've often heard/seen an atheist saying to a theist that they respect the theist's views and also respect them for holding religious views.

I used to, but I can't say that I do any more. I respect their views alright, but not more so than any other moderate view which a person could hold. Do I respect a theist for having a particular view? No. I'm not apologetic about it either. But I suppose that's because, lately, I've been leaning more to the side of anti-theism.

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

everyone is entitled to their view, just dont ram it down my throat

Coriolanus

Zillah wrote: »

He's probably referring to people like Hassidic Jews who literally won't flip a light switch on Sabbath, or the Amish who won't use technology...rather than the kind setting up Creationist Museums or bombing mosques.

Ah yes, the good Hassidic Jews who were rioting a week or two ago in Israel because a mother who was blatantly neglecting her children was arrested. If that's the chain of thought that an internally consistent theological doctrine gives rise to, give me flim flammy al a carte religion any day. At least there's a respect for the rule of law.