Do you respect the views of the religious?

Sam Vimes

Just in case you didn't know, the early church put their festivals at the same time as the currently existing pagan ones and intermingled them (eg the eggs) to try to ease the transition from their religions to christianity

midlandsmissus

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Just in case you didn't know, the early church put their festivals at the same time as the currently existing pagan ones and intermingled them (eg the eggs) to try to ease the transition from their religions to christianity

As I said earlier: paganism is also a religion. Atheists don't believe in any religion.

Anyway this is not a general argument I want to have as it's been done before.
My post was aimed at a specific poster who said he didn't want to be forced to participate in anything that is inspired by religion. And I wanted to know what he defines as something inspired by religion?

Sam Vimes

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As I said earlier: paganism is also a religion. Atheists don't believe in any religion.

Anyway this is not a general argument I want to have as it's been done before.
My post was aimed at a specific poster who said he didn't want to be forced to participate in anything that is inspired by religion. And I wanted to know what he defines as something inspired by religion?

I think you're taking a very strict interpretation of what he said to try to make something sensible look ridiculous. If he was to avoid everything that had some association with a religion in some way he could never leave his house. A lot of things have merit in spite of their association or in this case, their usurping by religion. I'm not going to miss out on a piss up and presents because some people 1500 years ago decided they'd tell people their messiah was born then to try to convert them

What he's talking about are things that only have religious merit like not cutting your hair because god says so or praying

Holopimp

I respect their right to hold religious beliefs. If it works for them, then good on them. As long as they don't try to enforce their beliefs on me.

I have to admit though, I do have to try hard to conceal my mirth when religious friends discuss creationism. I just don't believe in fairy-tales.

Zillah

I am always perplexed by this notion of "Believe what you want just don't bother me" -- in principle it sounds ideal and it is generally how things function, but I think there's something very unreasonable in that position.

I understand and accept that you believe the ultimate authority in the universe is God, and we know his will through *insert Holy Book here*, but I would like you to ignore the dictates of that omnipotent God in favour of earthly secular principles.

If I genuinely believed that evolution was a mistake or a lie, and that it was being taught to our children, you can bet your ass I'd be forcing my beliefs on you, your schools and the government. What the hell is the worth of a man made constitution compared to the will of the Almighty?

Imagine if we flipped it around. I respect your right to be an atheist/sceptic, just don't force it on me (ie, schools or goverment). Yet here we are with a generally secular ethos in the Western World.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the religious are entitled to force their beliefs into schools/governments, I'm just saying that it is reasonable for them to want to.

So basically there can be only war.

Turtwig

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why should you care where people find happiness? If it's something that helps them, can you not understand that?

Killing makes me happy, it helps me to focus :rolleyes:

Holopimp

I believe in toleration and acceptance. I don't enforce my atheist beliefs on others either and would expect the same. However, I think it is religious extremists who want to force their beliefs on others rather than the majority. Most of my friends who are religious don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat and neither do I.

And it is people who cause war, not religion itself. It is the misuse of religion by people.

WillieCocker

I respect the right to believe what you want.
But do i respect the religions themselves.....**** no.
I LOL @ them.

Handsome Bob

robindch wrote: »

Uh, I dunno. Close our eyes and think of Emma Watson?

jasonbourme.cs wrote: »

lmao !!

personally people can believe what they want as long as they dont try to influence me or my choices in life

Sam Vimes wrote: »

*shudder*

Galvasean wrote: »

No seriously, she looks like Dawkins. Dont believe me Google it.
I wont again >_<

fitz0 wrote: »

That ruined her forever for me.

vibe666 wrote: »

she's definitely put me off the idea of slipping one to dawkins.

I hate you all.

midlandsmissus

Malty_T wrote: »

Killing makes me happy, it helps me to focus :rolleyes:

Ok comparison wise:

Killing hurts some-one, some-one having personal beliefs doesn't.

I'm not talking about the harm religion can do, I think the catholic church is corrupt behind belief.

But somebody's personal views affect nobody but themselves.

CerebralCortex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ok comparison wise:

Killing hurts some-one, some-one having personal beliefs doesn't.

I'm not talking about the harm religion can do, I think the catholic church is corrupt behind belief.

But somebody's personal views affect nobody but themselves.

Except their kids... oh ya and the people they choose to hang out with... ...and people they vote for... ya you're right though other than that they don't affect anyone. :rolleyes:

midlandsmissus

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I think you're taking a very strict interpretation of what he said to try to make something sensible look ridiculous. If he was to avoid everything that had some association with a religion in some way he could never leave his house. A lot of things have merit in spite of their association or in this case, their usurping by religion. I'm not going to miss out on a piss up and presents because some people 1500 years ago decided they'd tell people their messiah was born then to try to convert them

What he's talking about are things that only have religious merit like not cutting your hair because god says so or praying

No I think I made a valid point: that alot of atheists and religious people are very similiar in that they feel they have to follow social norms.

For example, they're atheist but:

They've had their communion and confirmation for the money (I decided not to do these as a child as I didn't believe)
Get married in a church
Celebrate Easter and Christmas

I'm not judging anybody, it's just human nature to keep the perks

Holopimp

WillieCocker wrote: »

I respect the right to believe what you want.
But do i respect the religions themselves.....**** no.
I LOL @ them.

Yeah, I agree with that totally. Maybe that is why I secretly snicker to myself while my religious friends discuss creationism.

midlandsmissus

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Except their kids... oh ya and the people they choose to hang out with... ...and people they vote for... ya you're right though other than that they don't affect anyone. :rolleyes:

Except their kids....if I have kids I will let them make their own choice

People I choose to hang out with......amazingly religion is never the topic of order when I am with my friends. I see it as a personal thing. If somebody asked me I would tell them I believe in God, but I never bring it up.

People they vote for...... doesn't influence me one way or the other.

All of your points could also apply to atheism, it's up to the individual how they affect other people.

Holopimp

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No I think I made a valid point: that alot of atheists and religious people are very similiar in that they feel they have to follow social norms.

For example, they're atheist but:

They've had their communion and confirmation for the money (I decided not to do these as a child as I didn't believe)
Get married in a church
Celebrate Easter and Christmas

I'm not judging anybody, it's just human nature to keep the perks

Wouldn't you say that these are social traditions now for most people, and less of religious significance?

I haven't been baptized, as my parents felt I had the right to choose when I was older (and I chose not to.) I like the idea of he fairy-tale white wedding, but I think personally it will be a registry office for me. But I do celebrate Christmas and Easter, but not really for its religious significance to me. I feel it is more of a traditional event where the family can come together. It is more about the mince pies and pressies, than Jesus.

Dades

midlandsmissus wrote: »

No I think I made a valid point: that alot of atheists and religious people are very similiar in that they feel they have to follow social norms.

For example, they're atheist but:

midlandsmissus wrote: »

They've had their communion and confirmation for the money (I decided not to do these as a child as I didn't believe)

You say that as if kids really have an option, like they did to be baptised or not.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Get married in a church

I got married in a church for other people's benefit.
Otherwise it would have been registry office/beach all the way.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Celebrate Easter and Christmas

Just because I don't believe in Santa doesn't mean I can't celebrate his birthday. :pac:

midlandsmissus

Dades wrote: »

You say that as if kids really have an option, like they did to be baptised or not.

I got married in a church for other people's benefit.
Otherwise it would have been registry office/beach all the way.

Just because I don't believe in Santa doesn't mean I can't celebrate his birthday. :pac:

I had an option for communion and confirmation. Granted it is down to parents, yours were probably more pushy than mine. They simply asked me did I want to do it, and I said no.

Wedding - Other peoples benefit - I can appreciate that you wanted to please other people (presumably the in laws!)

Again, I understand about Christmas, the point I was really trying to make is that we're all more similar than you'd think. Social conditioning, traditions, etc, alot of people don't want to/can't deviate from the norm.

Turtwig

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Killing hurts some-one, some-one having personal beliefs doesn't.

But having personal beliefs can hurt,offend, insult, or demoralise other people. Nothing is black and white, and it seems to me from your posts that your just cutting and pasting religion to suit yourself and your perceived morals. Why not just reject religion fullstop? You can still be a theist.

Holopimp

Malty_T wrote: »

But having personal beliefs can hurt,offend, insult, or demoralise other people. Nothing is black and white, and it seems to me from your posts that your just cutting and pasting religion to suit yourself and your perceived morals. Why not just reject religion fullstop? You can still be a theist.

I like the idea of Humanism. Anyone know much on the subject?

Turtwig

Holopimp wrote: »

I like the idea of Humanism. Anyone know much on the subject?

I like it a bit too, unfortunately at the moment I don't want to accept any category of beliefs because I believe that gives us a natural subconscience to adhere to them just so we may be accepted by likeminded individuals. Trying to remain openminded is nigh on impossible - if not impossible.

There is my belief, your belief that is all. I'll respect it as long as you don't impose it on others.

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

So basically there can be only war.

...in the grim darkness of the future?

I have to agree with Zillah. Can we debunk this whole "I don't mind what people believe as long as it doesn't affect me" lark?
Sure they might not be running up to you in the street screaming, "REPENT!!!", but their beliefs can and usually do affect you regardless.
Religious people's stranglehold on the country's school system doesnt affect you? Religious people voting in elections and referendums based on their beliefs doesn't affect you? The pub being closed on Good Friday doesn't affect you? And may etcs.

Holopimp

Galvasean wrote: »

Religious people's stranglehold on the country's school system doesnt affect you? Religious people voting in elections and referendums based on their beliefs doesn't affect you? The pub being closed on Good Friday doesn't affect you? And may etcs.

Ah, you see I am from the UK originally and am only just starting to notice this stuff. I only recently found out about the school system in relation to religion and I find it quite worrying. I don't know if I would want to bring up my kids here if they have to be baptized Catholic just to get into a school...

Tim Robbins

Holopimp wrote: »

I like the idea of Humanism. Anyone know much on the subject?

www.humanism.ie. I am a member.

As for the OP, I think everyone has something annoying about them.
- Belief in an imaginary friend
- Really annoying political views. "If you don't know vote no" and all this nonsense.
- Bandwagon Munster fans who think they are all hard working men and spend ages giving out about Dublin but still choose to live here. Thankfully they've gone quiet this year.
- Munster fans who thought it was their right to go to the Heineken Cup final en masse and wear their munster jerseys the entire weekend.
- Some D4 heads.
- New Money.
- People who when you ask how's their job going they give you a twenty minute answer.
- People who ask you the same question several times. For example ask you on three separate occasions where you went on your holidays.
- People who have irritating senses of humour
- People who never give anything to any charity or any time for any good cause other than things that have obvious self benefit.
- People who pass around sponsorship cards at work for some odd charity that involves them having a walk in Italy.
- The asthma society. What have they ever done for asthmatics?
- Anyone who works in the public service who won't take a pay cut because it wasn't their fault...
- Anyone involved in the planning process in Dublin in the last 20 years.
- People who take coke
- People who don't walk their dogs
- Couriers who cycle the wrong way around town
- Show offs
- Bad manners
- Pharmacists
- Bandwagon fans
- Ryan Tubirdy
- Craig Doyle
- Ryan Tubirdy's band
- Some of the mods on boards.ie who hate critical analysis of their opinions (not on this forum btw).
- People who think you're weird or have too much time on your hands if you have any unusual hobbie.
- False marketing. I hate they way some products are branded as healthy when they clearly aren't.
- Pharmacists who engage in pseudo science and sell expensive psuedo sciene in their shops.
- People who absolutely hate paying tax
- Atheists that just laugh at every single aspect of every single religion
and then do something equally as irrational as religion but somehow think it's not.
- Drivers who break speed limits
- Drivers who drive right behind you and then overtake you just to go 1MPH faster.
- Motorbike drivers
- People who overuse facebook looking for attention.
- Nearly all US films.
- People who have weddings abroad and then put you in awkard position to spend loads of money to go when it turns out to be nearly the exact same as having a local Wedding.
- People who do absolutely nothing imaginative at their wedding but try to impress with an obvious show of money
- People who can't stop talking about their kids
- People who automatically think something is good if it is connected with money and bad if it's cheap.
- People with really annoying nationalistic views. You're not Irish if you like rugby. You're not Irish unless you want the brits out.
- and many more.

So, I see it as one irritating human habbit which isn't really that irritating if the person doesn't shove it in your face and has no regard to alternative views on this issue.

I'd find it boring if everyone was the same. So, in that regard I'd welcome some element of religion in society.

I see humans as selfish. Any sort of belief in the environment, human rights, animal welfare or basically anythign that isn't just about the self is to welcomed.

Zillah

Galvasean wrote: »

...in the grim darkness of the future?

I can always rely on you to get a Warhammer reference.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Except their kids....if I have kids I will let them make their own choice

People I choose to hang out with......amazingly religion is never the topic of order when I am with my friends. I see it as a personal thing. If somebody asked me I would tell them I believe in God, but I never bring it up.

People they vote for...... doesn't influence me one way or the other.

All of your points could also apply to atheism, it's up to the individual how they affect other people.

But you have a rather vague sort of theism.

Do you not see the conflict in telling them you respect their beliefs, but then ask them to not act upon them? Think of this in regards to evolution/ID in schools, abortion, euthanasia or divorce. There are people out there who believe that breaking marriage vows is an awful thing to do and should be illegal. It's quite ludicrous to tell such a person that what they believe is fine and dandy but that you'd like the laws of our nation to support something you've just acknowledged they believe to be evil.

Just turn it the other way around. Imagine a Jerhovah's Witness saying to you that they respect your belief that blood transfusions are a good idea, but that you shouldn't let it interfere with how we run our society, and that blood transfusions should be illegal.

Basically I'm saying that this sociological truce we have with each other is a naive illusion. Fundamentalists are monumentally wrong, but at least they are internally consistent, know what exactly they believe and are willing to fight for it.

Moderate religion is a truly baffling thing to me. For example, allowing someone to decide if they want to get baptised later in life rather than doing it straight off is insane. If someone believes in God, and believes that one requirement for escaping punishment/separation after death is a baptism, then delaying this act is incredibly stupid. You wouldn't let your child make up their mind on vaccines once they're older, or crossing the road properly or playing with knives...and yet all of these things have far less serious consequences than eternal damnation.

Basically moderates purport to believe certain things and then behave in an entirely contradictory fashion. Lunacy.

patrickthomas

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I've often heard/seen an atheist saying to a theist that they respect the theist's views and also respect them for holding religious views.

I used to, but I can't say that I do any more. I respect their views alright, but not more so than any other moderate view which a person could hold. Do I respect a theist for having a particular view? No. I'm not apologetic about it either. But I suppose that's because, lately, I've been leaning more to the side of anti-theism.

So, a simple question: do you respect a) the views of the religious? b) the religious person for holding those views?

I used to same as yourself but in recent years am becoming incresingly anti -theist as I learn and research more and more particularly about our country and the Catholic church.

It now seems to me that my old view of respecting others religious beliefs is no longer possible as they not only show no respect to my non-religious view but I have to live in a country where issues like where my kids go to school can be affected by my atheist viewpoint.

After reading the Ryan report I am horrified and disgusted at the people who still frequent church in Ireland.

If I had an organisation/club/institution in Ireland and members of this institution were continually being found guilty of psycho/sexual sadism, I would not only expect no-one to attend meetings any more but I would expect all support for my institution to collapse and disappear overnight.

Why this has not happened already in Ireland is both baffling and intriguing as regards the level of obedience that exists to what is regarded as a moral and ethical authority.

This type of obedience can only be possible through collusion of the Government/media and probably a lot more as well. Interestingly I find it is difficult not to see a parallel between the outrageous corruption we see in our government and the somehow blind acceptance of this as well.

patrickthomas

Holopimp wrote: »

Ah, you see I am from the UK originally and am only just starting to notice this stuff. I only recently found out about the school system in relation to religion and I find it quite worrying. I don't know if I would want to bring up my kids here if they have to be baptized Catholic just to get into a school...

Hopefully the people her will wake up and see this now as well, and not only as regards you, we now have people bringing up kids of pretty much every religion under the sun and this problem is not going to go way/be swept under that collective carpet that must be the size of the Atlantic ocean by now.

The other thing is would you want your kids within a mile of any member of an institution that has practised endemic abuse of children for decades and longer and when they get caught have a "sweetheart" deal with the government that means the tax-payer foots the 1.3 Billion bill and no-one gets a criminal prosecution, it beggars belief.

Galvasean

patrickthomas wrote: »

This type of obedience can only be possible through collusion of the Government/media and probably a lot more as well. Interestingly I find it is difficult not to see a parallel between the outrageous corruption we see in our government and the somehow blind acceptance of this as well.

It's all linked. The Irish mentallity was formed ages ago under the strict watch of the Catholic Church which basically ran the country. In those days it was benefitial to keep the head down and do as one was told or suffer the consequences. Fianna Fail at the time was basically the political party that represented the Church so the Church told everyone to vote for them and the people followed suit. It became the done thing to vote for Fianna Fail. As a Catholic, that was simply the done thing.
My grandmother grew up with this oppresion line of thinking. To this day she's still indoctrinated in the idea that voting Fianna Fail = being Catholic. She constantly moans about the state of the country, yet whenever I ask her why doesn't she simply vote for someone else I usually get the typical irish "Ah, sure, they probably wouldn't do any better". To put it simply she's had this obedience to the Catholic Church (and through it's association Fianna Fail) so drilled into her that she can't see anything beyond it. After years of just following obediently, she can't get out of the mindset that Fianna Fail = Catholic Church, Catholic Church = Good, ergo Fianna Fail = Good.
And it's not just her either. It's near enough an entire generation (and indeed a sizable chunk of her children's generation) that are in this mindset. They are so used to the 'done thing' that they can't see anything beyond it.
That is why the Church and this corrupt government continue to prosper at our expense.

patrickthomas

Galvasean wrote: »

That is why the Church and this corrupt government continue to prosper at our expense.

tbh Gavlasean I had planned on being far from here by now, but the collapse of the property market has trapped me here. I had given up on any form of political or social enlightenment ever happening here and had decides that at least for the remainder of my life i would live in a country that was a bit more evolved than this one.

Now stuck here, there seems to be no choice but to try and bring about some level of change so at least when I am an old man I can look a young person in the eye and say that I made a diferrence. I thought did make a differrence here, back in the 80's but that is not only long forgotten but I really think that I did not when I see what little has changed.

I have no idea how to try and change things here, a rant on the internet makes me feel better but I think it will take something a lot more direct than that.

The parellels between orgainised religion and politics are strong with the common weakness that a group that do not support any established beliefs do not have a common focus.

Samuel beckett when asked would he like his youth back answered "No, not with the fire in my belly now"

vibe666

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Do you celebrate Christmas? Eat Easter eggs?

isn't that the one where religious types celebrate when jebus was nailed to giant chocolate egg?