Similarities between Irelands economy and other countries

Bex2

Just out of interest would like to know

what country has a similar economy and economic history as Ireland?

Hasschu

Ireland is unique in that its history of occupation and control by a foreign power up to 1922 has no parallels. There are lots of parallels to the poverty stricken, nationalistic, and trade aversion behaviours between 1922 and 1973.

From 1973 onward we resemble Singapore the most in that we opened up to trade and became prosperous. There are many small countries and city states that have waxed and waned throughout history. They usually peak around the 50 year mark and then decline to a point where their economic performance is slightly less than their trading partners. You can tick off all the small countries in Europe and find that the darlings of one decade are the rotten eggs of another decade. Small countries tend to find a niche that they exploit to the fullest becoming a Country Inc. much like Japan. Large countries can get a couple of centuries out of their niches due to the mass momentum. The small guys get blown off course because they are of necessity more narrowly focused and dependent on a couple of tricks which can be adopted by their competitors with little difficulty.

Low corporate taxes is not rocket science and becomes a race to the bottom that nobody wins. Improved higher education is also easily replicated. Opening the gates to highly educated and skilled immigrants is not difficult. This is sometimes known as the "My Chinese are better educated and smarter than your Chinese".

What sorts out the winners from the losers is that the winners stay the course, absorb the blows, pick up and continue. Can Ireland do that or will we descend into a morass of babble and chaos, the bankers vs the sans culotte, the Public sector against the Private sector, the well off against the poor, the unionized against the non unionized. Or will we surprise the world and get our act back on the road. Fate will unfold as it should.

DJDC

Ireland is unique in that its history of occupation and control by a foreign power up to 1922 has no parallels.

India? Nearly every country in Africa?

Time Magazine

DJDC wrote: »

India? Nearly every country in Africa?

And Canada.

Bex2, no other country suffered such a devastating blow as the Famine and became as rich as we have in such a short period.

However there are plenty countries that suffered a massive set back and recovered (think Germany in WWII, for example), and there are countries whose composition is a bit like ours (think Singapore, for example), and there are countries copying us (think Poland, for example), but no country is very similar in both its past and present.

A good book, if you are interested in this would be 'The Economy of Ireland'. Its very accessible and has essays on Ireland's economic history and the welfare effects of the Celtic Tiger among other things.

onq

The Economist wrote: »

<snip>
However there are plenty countries that suffered a massive set back and recovered (think Germany in WWII, for example)
<snip>

I could be wrong here but...

I think;

"countries who tried to make themselves into an Imperial Power by invading other countries and failed"

are not in the the same category as;

"countries that never invaded other countries but were occupied by an Imperial Power and later gained independence."

In fact they seem to be opposites...

<rolls eyes>

ONQ

Time Magazine

onq wrote: »

<rolls eyes>

Do you think Mr. GDP cares if your change him by moral means or not?

Flamed Diving

Hasschu wrote: »

Ireland is unique in that its history of occupation and control by a foreign power up to 1922 has no parallels. There are lots of parallels to the poverty stricken, nationalistic, and trade aversion behaviours between 1922 and 1973.

From 1973 onward we resemble Singapore the most in that we opened up to trade and became prosperous. There are many small countries and city states that have waxed and waned throughout history. They usually peak around the 50 year mark and then decline to a point where their economic performance is slightly less than their trading partners. You can tick off all the small countries in Europe and find that the darlings of one decade are the rotten eggs of another decade. Small countries tend to find a niche that they exploit to the fullest becoming a Country Inc. much like Japan. Large countries can get a couple of centuries out of their niches due to the mass momentum. The small guys get blown off course because they are of necessity more narrowly focused and dependent on a couple of tricks which can be adopted by their competitors with little difficulty.

Low corporate taxes is not rocket science and becomes a race to the bottom that nobody wins. Improved higher education is also easily replicated. Opening the gates to highly educated and skilled immigrants is not difficult. This is sometimes known as the "My Chinese are better educated and smarter than your Chinese".

What sorts out the winners from the losers is that the winners stay the course, absorb the blows, pick up and continue. Can Ireland do that or will we descend into a morass of babble and chaos, the bankers vs the sans culotte, the Public sector against the Private sector, the well off against the poor, the unionized against the non unionized. Or will we surprise the world and get our act back on the road. Fate will unfold as it should.

Any literature, references, etc?

Anonymous1987

Ignoring economic history and comparing todays economies Finland and Denmark seem to be resonable countries to compare Ireland with.

Hasschu

The Vikings played a role from the 9th to 11th century, and the English from the 12th to the 20th century although some would claim that they did not consolidate their power until 1603 and even though we were rid of the burden in 1922 they still remain in control of some parts. The part they control now is not profitable so the ties that bind will fray as time goes by. India was a commercial endeavour from the 17th century to the 19th century, it was around 1860 that Britain got seriously in control of India. Africa was largely a 19th century conquest, prior to that there were trading posts. Sweden has an interesting history complete with famines, bank failures, periods of prosperity and poverty. Major military defeat by the Turks on the north shore of the Black Sea where their army was decimated after which they engaged thousands of Irish mercenaries to protect home turf. Sweden has tended to business close to home ever since for which they can thank the Turks.

To Singapore you could add S. Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands and others who went from poverty to prosperity and retraced some of their path. Switzerland is a good example of a country that navigated the ravages of 20th century Europe largely unscathed. Literature and references can be found on bit torrent sites, I have found that history books not written by English speakers give more perspective than having information filtered through a British or American lens. I applaud your interest in countries that have had similar experiences to the Irish. Close matches can be found for periods of 25 to 50 years but not for hundreds or thousands of years. The more we know about the history of small countries the more likely we are to find solutions that work as opposed to aping what worked in Boston or New York.

Flamed Diving

Hasschu wrote: »

The Vikings played a role from the 9th to 11th century, and the English from the 12th to the 20th century although some would claim that they did not consolidate their power until 1603 and even though we were rid of the burden in 1922 they still remain in control of some parts. The part they control now is not profitable so the ties that bind will fray as time goes by. India was a commercial endeavour from the 17th century to the 19th century, it was around 1860 that Britain got seriously in control of India. Africa was largely a 19th century conquest, prior to that there were trading posts. Sweden has an interesting history complete with famines, bank failures, periods of prosperity and poverty. Major military defeat by the Turks on the north shore of the Black Sea where their army was decimated after which they engaged thousands of Irish mercenaries to protect home turf. Sweden has tended to business close to home ever since for which they can thank the Turks.

To Singapore you could add S. Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands and others who went from poverty to prosperity and retraced some of their path. Switzerland is a good example of a country that navigated the ravages of 20th century Europe largely unscathed. Literature and references can be found on bit torrent sites, I have found that history books not written by English speakers give more perspective than having information filtered through a British or American lens. I applaud your interest in countries that have had similar experiences to the Irish. Close matches can be found for periods of 25 to 50 years but not for hundreds or thousands of years. The more we know about the history of small countries the more likely we are to find solutions that work as opposed to aping what worked in Boston or New York.

Any literature, references, etc?

res ipsa

Bex2 wrote: »

Just out of interest would like to know

what country has a similar economy and economic history as Ireland?

1 letter & 6 months (or as long as they can hold on for)

the letter "C"

Flamed Diving

res ipsa wrote: »

1 letter & 6 months (or as long as they can hold on for)

the letter "C"

No, only people who have little or no understanding of economics find that joke amusing. I have a word for these people, it also has the letter 'C'.

res ipsa

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, only people who have little or no understanding of economics find that joke amusing. I have a word for these people, it also has the letter 'C'.

Like the Professor of Economics at UCD Morgan Kelly
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/01/ireland-economic-crisis

We're worse than D PIGS, do U 'C'?

Anonymous1987

res ipsa wrote: »

Like the Professor of Economics at UCD Morgan Kelly
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/01/ireland-economic-crisis

We're worse than D PIGS, do U 'C'?

That article was published March 1st and that joke was around earlier than that but somehow we haven't quite collapsed

Taken from that same article

"This talk of disaster is so one-sided and irresponsible," O'Neill added. "It is bad for Ireland."
O'Neill and other economists like Patrick Honohan, a former economist at the World Bank who teaches at Trinity College Dublin, argue that Ireland will never go the way of Iceland, because Ireland's public debt is a manageable 40% of gross domestic product.
The banking sector, more than 200% of national income, does not even approach that of Iceland, they add, which was about 10 times the size of its economy.
Honohan said that at worst, bank losses will compose about 20% of national income. "Are we another Iceland? No. The numbers just are not big enough," he said.

Current estimates put Irelands probability of default at 20-15%, somewhat worrying but not enough to call to the bookies.

res ipsa

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

That article was published March 1st and that joke was around earlier than that but somehow we haven't quite collapsed

Taken from that same article
Current estimates put Irelands probability of default at 20-15%, somewhat worrying but not enough to call to the bookies.

Thats fair enough, always 2 sides 2 a story.
Just ask Iceland's former prime minister.
http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2009/06/22/haarde-in-dublin-ireland-worse-than-iceland/

Flamed Diving

res ipsa wrote: »

Like the Professor of Economics at UCD Morgan Kelly
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/01/ireland-economic-crisis

We're worse than D PIGS, do U 'C'?

Why not explain in your own words, why you think that joke is valid?

Time Magazine

Sigh. This thread is going the way of Iceland. In fact I propose a specific variant of Godwin's Law, and for humorous purposes we shall call it Ibid's Law, which states that: As a macroeconomic discussion continues after a cynical comparison to Iceland, the probability of the discussion being locked approaches one.