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South africa vs. New Zealand 1/Aug/09
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mikeruurds wrote: »I'm actually a little dismayed at the amount of anti-bok sentiment on boards at the moment. No-one is giving the Boks any credit for playing to a gameplan and doing what few other teams have managed against the All Blacks.
It's all about the result in the end.
A lot of lingering ill-will after the nastiness of the Lions Tour. Schalk Burger, etc.
Good team, but I've seen better Boks teams. 07 for one.
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anonymous_joe wrote: »A lot of lingering ill-will after the nastiness of the Lions Tour. Schalk Burger, etc.
Good team, but I've seen better Boks teams. 07 for one.
The thing is that this Bok team are winning ugly at the moment and are not playing to their full potential yet. It also seems as if the coach has finally given up on messing with good combinations. A lot of PdV's first choice players during the Lions tour were picked on reputation and not form.
Finally the form players are being picked. This Bok team is only going to get better.
I still don't understand why you guys are so patriotic towards the Lions. It was a close series that could have gone either way, but the Boks hardly deserve to be demonised.0 -
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mikeruurds wrote: »The thing is that this Bok team are winning ugly at the moment and are not playing to their full potential yet. It also seems as if the coach has finally given up on messing with good combinations. A lot of PdV's first choice players during the Lions tour were picked on reputation and not form.
Finally the form players are being picked. This Bok team is only going to get better.
I still don't understand why you guys are so patriotic towards the Lions. It was a close series that could have gone either way, but the Boks hardly deserve to be demonised.
I don't think they have this so called potential.
Take Habana - absolutely world-class, best winger in the world, but he can't kick, his defence is good, not great, and he's short. He doesn't fit the mould of a modern rugby winger, because with so much kicking, you tend to have three full backs, not one and two wingers.
As for the patriotism towards the Lions, it's nothing of the sort, it's merely the fact that the Lions went and out-played the Boks, outscored them and genreally played much better rugby. And lost. It's the reverse of 97 I'll point out for the sake of honesty. In essence, the better team lost, and before someone says 'winning's an art form' that's bullshít, South Africa didn't make Stephen Jones miss a few penalties in the first test, South Africa didn't make Monye fcuk up (well De Villiers did for one try :pac:) etc. They were lucky, and we hear so much shíte about how bad the NH is at rugby, then you watch the premier SH team get thrown about by a Lions team that wasn't even meant to be that great. It's frustrating. :P
I think the problem with the Boks in my mind comes down to the pack, which is made up of 8 great individuals by and large, rather than a cohesive unit. Most teams aren't capable of dealing with the likes of Schalk Burger, Victor Matfield, Heinrich Brussow et al. However, the limp performances from the likes of Pierre Spies in three tests, Mtwawira in two of three tests and more is indicative of a team that's not as strong as it should be. I'd rather have van der Linde and Botha in my front row than Mtwawira and Smit starting at prop.
As for the backs, the centres are overrated, Morne Steyn's great, but his distrubtion could be a bit better, and they need to find a proper role for Franny Steyn. Just because you win doesn't mean you can't win better.
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anonymous_joe wrote: »A lot of lingering ill-will after the nastiness of the Lions Tour. Schalk Burger, etc.
Good team, but I've seen better Boks teams. 07 for one.
Really, the Schalk incident isn't any worse than Quinland or Best's gauging. What other nastiness where there. Too much complaing from soft NH rugby people and too little rugby me thinks.0 -
anonymous_joe wrote: »Take Habana - absolutely world-class, best winger in the world, but he can't kick, his defence is good, not great, and he's short. He doesn't fit the mould of a modern rugby winger, because with so much kicking, you tend to have three full backs, not one and two wingers.
You complete contradicting yourself here, saying Habana is world-class and then doesn't fit the mould of a moderne winger. What does this modern winger thing mean??
Each team have their own strenghts and gameplans and the wingers and fullbacks will play too that. Theres no such thing as a too short winger. Both Williams and Habana were World players of the year and both are short. Rocokoko and Sivi in their lenghts were not even nominated, neither was Bowe or Horgan. As for him can't kick, scroll through youtube and you'll see plenty of chip and chases that led to tries by this man.
Out-played is rubbish. The boks muscled the Lions up and with the intensity forced the Lions into erros just like they did with the ABs on SA. Not many teams can play like this.As for the patriotism towards the Lions, it's nothing of the sort, it's merely the fact that the Lions went and out-played the Boks, outscored them and genreally played much better rugby. And lost. It's the reverse of 97 I'll point out for the sake of honesty. In essence, the better team lost, and before someone says 'winning's an art form' that's bullshít, South Africa didn't make Stephen Jones miss a few penalties in the first test, South Africa didn't make Monye fcuk up (well De Villiers did for one try :pac:) etc. They were lucky, and we hear so much shíte about how bad the NH is at rugby, then you watch the premier SH team get thrown about by a Lions team that wasn't even meant to be that great. It's frustrating. :P
Premier SH team get thrown around by a Lions squad?? made up from the best players in the 4 home nations and STILL you can't win it.:D NH rugby standard is so far behind SH and where world rugby should be we can't even see them on the horizon.
You just don't know what you are talking about. This is the best cohesive unit the boks had in a long time. It doesn't matter what you want Spies to be or think about him, his main plan is to get the ball over the advantage line, which he does. Beast and Smith both earns their spots and he is a captain that any team would be lucky to have. What's the point of having a strong scrum if you not going to use it to score points or win??I think the problem with the Boks in my mind comes down to the pack, which is made up of 8 great individuals by and large, rather than a cohesive unit. Most teams aren't capable of dealing with the likes of Schalk Burger, Victor Matfield, Heinrich Brussow et al. However, the limp performances from the likes of Pierre Spies in three tests, Mtwawira in two of three tests and more is indicative of a team that's not as strong as it should be. I'd rather have van der Linde and Botha in my front row than Mtwawira and Smit starting at prop.
The same centre that stopped the Monye try, or the other centre that scored the winning try in second test. Morne is not a running outhalf like Pienaar and does not need to be. You do know he scored all 31 points and scored a try on Sat. Steyn is doing well as we have no other specialist fullback at the moment.As for the backs, the centres are overrated, Morne Steyn's great, but his distrubtion could be a bit better, and they need to find a proper role for Franny Steyn. Just because you win doesn't mean you can't win better.
The amount of "experienced" and "better know how to win" posters on this forum is laughable. If Ireland can win a world cup, win 6N, beat 2 of 3 SH teams in SH terrotiry, win AIs then I'd respect you more and will be inclined to agree other than that I'll keep enjoying the boks win against all other teams.0 -
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I'd have expected more intelligence here from ya.You complete contradicting yourself here, saying Habana is world-class and then doesn't fit the mould of a moderne winger. What does this modern winger thing mean?? Each team have their own strenghts and gameplans and the wingers and fullbacks will play too that. Theres no such thing as a too short winger. Both Williams and Habana were World players of the year and both are short. Rocokoko and Sivi in their lenghts were not even nominated, neither was Bowe or Horgan. As for him can't kick, scroll through youtube and you'll see plenty of chip and chases that led to tries by this man.
Habana's a world-class player - he's definitely the best try-scorer in the game - but he's not used properly by South Africa, because he doesn;t suit the game plan. All he ever does is get to come in off his wing for line-outs and punch through the line (a la the Lions game.) Habana's the kind of player you should build your game plan around, not just hope you'll get to use him for one or two set-pieces a game.
Chip and chases aren't indicative of a varied and effective kicking game.
The Lions scored more points over three games, had more possession and scored more tries. The Boks won the first test only because of the penalties that came from Phil Vickery vs Mtwawira.Out-played is rubbish. The boks muscled the Lions up and with the intensity forced the Lions into erros just like they did with the ABs on SA. Not many teams can play like this.
South Africa has the most rugby players in the world, more than England, England has double the player numbers of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The playing pool of South Africa and that of the four nations that make up the Lions would be about even.Premier SH team get thrown around by a Lions squad?? made up from the best players in the 4 home nations and STILL you can't win it.:D NH rugby standard is so far behind SH and where world rugby should be we can't even see them on the horizon.
Again, if NH rugby is so far behind, why couldn't South Africa score more points than the Lions?
Spies is shíte. He's one of the weakest number 8's at the highest level. He can't tackle, he made no ground against the Lions and he doesn't do a fcuking thing at the breakdown. What's he there to do? Keep Kankowksi out so everyone else has a fair chance?You just don't know what you are talking about. This is the best cohesive unit the boks had in a long time. It doesn't matter what you want Spies to be or think about him, his main plan is to get the ball over the advantage line, which he does. Beast and Smith both earns their spots and he is a captain that any team would be lucky to have. What's the point of having a strong scrum if you not going to use it to score points or win??
Mtwawira earned his spot because the two best props in South Africa are playing in Ireland. (One of whom's injured at the moment.) Neither Smit nor the Zimbabwean are as good props (Smit at hooker's a different issue) as the two they've replaced.
As for cohesion, the Boks backrow's useless without Brussow, whose probably the best 7 in the world after McCaw. (6 for you lot.)
Steyn was fantastic on the weekend, but he's still not a world-class distributor. He's a world-class out-half, that's merely not one of his strengths. In the same Ruan Pienaar can get a back line running but can't tackle or be tackled.The same centre that stopped the Monye try, or the other centre that scored the winning try in second test. Morne is not a running outhalf like Pienaar and does not need to be. You do know he scored all 31 points and scored a try on Sat. Steyn is doing well as we have no other specialist fullback at the moment.
De Villiers is a very good centre, Fourie's good too, but they're not as good as the likes of Stirling Mortlock, Ma'a Nonu/Conrad Smith, Roberts/O'Driscoll, and so on.The amount of "experienced" and "better know how to win" posters on this forum is laughable. If Ireland can win a world cup, win 6N, beat 2 of 3 SH teams in SH terrotiry, win AIs then I'd respect you more and will be inclined to agree other than that I'll keep enjoying the boks win against all other teams.
Ireland's a tiny country with a small pool of players. South Africa has more professional rugby players in France than Ireland has at all. South Africa's got the most rugby players in the world, if they're not winning games, they're not doing something right.
No-one in Ireland expects to beat South Africa, we're probably never going to be more than the world's third or fourth best team (right now I'd say we're sitting in fourth behind the tri-nations, which is fairly impressive considering how much smaller we are in rugby terms than that triumvirate.0 -
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anonymous_joe wrote: »
Intelligence is not needed if you use your common sense.I'd have expected more intelligence here from ya.
Habana's a world-class player - he's definitely the best try-scorer in the game - but he's not used properly by South Africa, because he doesn;t suit the game plan. All he ever does is get to come in off his wing for line-outs and punch through the line (a la the Lions game.) Habana's the kind of player you should build your game plan around, not just hope you'll get to use him for one or two set-pieces a game.
Chip and chases aren't indicative of a varied and effective kicking game.
And what is the boks gameplan. The boks have played several different game plans between the Lions and 3N tests so far and also the AI last Nov. Habana is marked by most opposition after WC07 so to built the gameplan around him would be suicidle, look what happened to Williams and all of a sudden according to posters he is the worst winger in the world.
He doesn't need to be a good kicker, we have Du Preez, Steyn and Steyn to do that, which they did very effectively and well against the ABs.
You only scored more tries in third test against a second string bok team. In the first two tests SA scored more tries and the statistics were very similar with some for boks and some for Lions. The Lions didn't loose the first test because of Vickery, 3 missed penalties and 3 failed tries by brilliant SA defence is what cost you.The Lions scored more points over three games, had more possession and scored more tries. The Boks won the first test only because of the penalties that came from Phil Vickery vs Mtwawira.South Africa has the most rugby players in the world, more than England, England has double the player numbers of Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The playing pool of South Africa and that of the four nations that make up the Lions would be about even.
Where are these statistics? SA have over 360 000 registered players compared to England's over 630 000.
Because in international test matches between tough teams one team will rarely run away with the game. It always comes down to a few points. I said far behind and also mentioned when was the last time a NH have consistently beat a SH team or won in the South?Again, if NH rugby is so far behind, why couldn't South Africa score more points than the Lions?
That's your oppinion. He came off a very long S14 season and was immense so we'll cut him some slag for the Lions series. He is 1.94Mtr why on earth would we want a tall No.8 to compete at the breakdown?? He is used for his power and pace to get over advantage line. He can most certainly tackle, focusing just on a few Lions test matches does not sum him up.Spies is shíte. He's one of the weakest number 8's at the highest level. He can't tackle, he made no ground against the Lions and he doesn't do a fcuking thing at the breakdown. What's he there to do? Keep Kankowksi out so everyone else has a fair chance?
Whether that was the reason I don't know but he mostly certainly do deserve his spot now. The front row didn't struggle against the Lions or the ABs.Mtwawira earned his spot because the two best props in South Africa are playing in Ireland. (One of whom's injured at the moment.) Neither Smit nor the Zimbabwean are as good props (Smit at hooker's a different issue) as the two they've replaced.
Oh really, now I have to question your intelligence. It's just more tit for tat, where is the proof?? Brussouw outshined McCaw in both tests so I wouldn't consider Richie to be the best anymore.As for cohesion, the Boks backrow's useless without Brussow, whose probably the best 7 in the world after McCaw. (6 for you lot.)
First you say our centres are overrated now they're good??De Villiers is a very good centre, Fourie's good too, but they're not as good as the likes of Stirling Mortlock, Ma'a Nonu/Conrad Smith, Roberts/O'Driscoll, and so on.
Where's the stats for all this so called most rugby players? As for not doing something right, we are winning most games, tournaments and trophies so we are doing something rightIreland's a tiny country with a small pool of players. South Africa has more professional rugby players in France than Ireland has at all. South Africa's got the most rugby players in the world, if they're not winning games, they're not doing something right.
Not sure why you pointing this out. I agree but was merely pointing to Joe that to call the Lions tour nasty because of Schalk is absurd if their own players do the same thing.mikeruurds wrote: »There are no excuses for Schalk's actions. My wife and I couldn't believe it when we saw it happen.
SA don't need to resort to thuggery. We're better than that.0 -
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We are very lucky to have what I believe to be one of the best 8's in the world atm with Heaslip.
No point being able to run 100 metres in 3 seconds or something if you cant get a chance to use it.
Oh please, Heaslip had a good season in 09 and now he is all of a sudden one of the best?? He was average and very poor in 07/08. He was very quiet and nowhere near the action in the 1st and 2nd Lions test matches. He played well in third but that hardly makes him the best.
He used his pace and space plenty of times in the past. Have you actually watched the S14 this year? or the internationals in SA against England, Wales?? He was immense and 1 or 2 quiet games doesn't make him an average player.
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Oh please
Yes I am an avid super 14 watcher and spies had a great season. You say that 1 or 2 poor games doesnt make him a bad player, do 5 in a row? Heaslip has been one of Leinsters best for the last few years, had a fantastic Lions tour I dont know what you were watching. Throw up as many videos as you like, doesnt change the fact that what I have seen of spies in the last few games, from a player who I rated highly has been very poor and kankowski couldnt have been as bad. Spies has a big reputation and hasnt been backing it up.0 -
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Oh please
Yes I am an avid super 14 watcher and spies had a great season. You say that 1 or 2 poor games doesnt make him a bad player, do 5 in a row? Heaslip has been one of Leinsters best for the last few years, had a fantastic Lions tour I dont know what you were watching. Throw up as many videos as you like, doesnt change the fact that what I have seen of spies in the last few games, from a player who I rated highly has been very poor and kankowski couldnt have been as bad. Spies has a big reputation and hasnt been backing it up.
5 in a row? Name the teams they played against and we can debate it then.
Being good for Leinster doesnt make you one of the best 8 in the world. He was very average for Ireland last year regardless of Leinster status. I was watching all 3 Lions tests and he was anonymous in first 2, if you browse through here you'll find other posters (non-boks) have said the same thing. Just watch Heaslip from the scrum before Smit's try, not once did he tackle or go into the breakdown or did anything and he could've positioned himself to do cover tackle on Smit. You prob confuse him with Jamie Roberts.
How did Spies get his big reputation? He has backed his position and deserves to be there, Kankowski can run but gets isolated and don't have the same power.0 -
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Bloemfontein - Jaque Fourie is in two minds about whether he would like to stay in South Africa or accept a contract to play in France, but he is absolutely certain about one thing: "I think I am still the best outside centre in the world, so that hasn't changed." (Cape Times July 24th)
Arrogant? Smug?
I was waiting for Fourie's quote and happy to respond. He was winding the Cape Times writer up, it's not arrogance, if you read some of the Afrikaans newspapers you would see there is great rivalry between him and Jacobs for the 13 shirt.
What is he going to do, say he is second best so that Jacobs could start. Fourie has always been good, not the best 13 but that comment hardly makes the whole boks team arrogant.
I can right now quote a few links to Irish papers, players saying that they were the best or their players the best in their positions in the world. 0 -
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LTLFTC
Wow, SA are just incredible at the moment, the Lions tour really sorted out some of their selection issues which boks had been complaining about before the tour. NZ played the wrong game tho, looked like a French team, barrel of a gun stuff.
Spies is superb athlete, he's quicker/faster than 90% of 8s, and to be fair, most centers and even a few wings I could name, but his game is about ball in hand go forward (as the modern 8 game) he has loads of backrow help for all the drudge. Heaslip does a good bit more 'drudge' and has this season to make himself a great. They really don't play in a similar way though, Heaslip is just not as fast, Spies not as wily (yet).
They are the same age arn't they? [EDIT] Heaslip is 26 this season...and an Israeli to boot.
At present Spies is better 8, but the back row is the back row, not a collection of fast / jinky runners.
I'd LOVE to see a northern / southern club competition, say a 3 match series between HEC and S14 winners??0 -
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