Groundhog Day on Connolly/Rosslare Line

invincibleirish

Rosslare harbour isn't a priority, this is 2009 not 1970 and the world has moved on. As such large allocations of resources to projects like the New Ross bypass and increasing train services to Rosslare are pointless when whatever money available can be spent building roads and increasing rail capacity where they are far more sorely needed.

The only folks who will mourn the demise of the Rosslare line are the trainspotters, but i'm sure IE will ensure a few steam summer specials will still be be able to work the line and everyone will be happy

Judgement Day

invincibleirish wrote: »

Rosslare harbour isn't a priority, this is 2009 not 1970 and the world has moved on. As such large allocations of resources to projects like the New Ross bypass and increasing train services to Rosslare are pointless when whatever money available can be spent building roads and increasing rail capacity where they are far more sorely needed.

The only folks who will mourn the demise of the Rosslare line are the trainspotters, but i'm sure IE will ensure a few steam summer specials will still be be able to work the line and everyone will be happy

Nobody has suggested on this thread that Rosslare Harbour is a priority or that rail services to it need to be increased - try to read the posts before launching into a tirade - but that a more sensible timetable is required! A lot more people - i.e. the Irish taxpayer - will be concerned in the long term if the South Wexford line is allowed to close now. Where lines like Cobh Junction/Youghal and the WRC could have been mothballed and reasonably maintained for a pittance, they were instead allowed to disintegrate completely and needing total renewal at a cost of millions. A little foresight as to future transport needs could have saved the taxpayer a fortune and it is obvious to anybody with half a brain that ferry traffic and specifically foot passenger traffic will come back into its own before too long. Ireland already has major problems selling itself as a tourist destination without making access even harder. €100 million plus spent on the WRC and the Govt is considering the closure of one of the main feeder routes to it. Transport 21, spatial strategy and gateway hubs how are ya?

invincibleirish

Judgement Day wrote: »

Nobody has suggested on this thread that Rosslare Harbour is a priority or that rail services to it need to be increased - try to read the posts before launching into a tirade - but that a more sensible timetable is required!

But isn't the timetable as is because IR do not consider Rosslare a priority and trains to there take second place to DART and commuter services as surely they should?.

Judgement Day wrote: »

A lot more people - i.e. the Irish taxpayer - will be concerned in the long term if the South Wexford line is allowed to close now. Where lines like Cobh Junction/Youghal and the WRC could have been mothballed and reasonably maintained for a pittance, they were instead allowed to disintegrate completely and needing total renewal at a cost of millions

Was the Cork- Midleton alignment not preserved? The Irish taxpayer has greater concerns then keeping lightly used lines open.

Judgement Day wrote: »

A little foresight as to future transport needs could have saved the taxpayer a fortune and it is obvious to anybody with half a brain that ferry traffic and specifically foot passenger traffic will come back into its own before too long.

Perhaps my half brain isn't up to speed but how can you accurately predict Rosslare harbour, far far away from any major urban area, is going to see an increase in foot passengers? I'm all for proper planning but keeping a skeleton rail service open, whilst a decent bus service is already in situ, in the hope that one day Rosslare will return to its glory days passenger wis strikes me as trainspotter nostalgia rather then planning out for our future transport needs.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ireland already has major problems selling itself as a tourist destination without making access even harder. €100 million plus spent on the WRC and the Govt is considering the closure of one of the main feeder routes to it. Transport 21, spatial strategy and gateway hubs how are ya?

Ireland has problems selling itself to tourists because we live in an expensive country, not because train connections to an out of the way ferry port are poor. I agree that the WRC money could have been spent in a better manner, but i smile at the mention of T21 & the NSS, they have nothing to do with Rosslare and verything to do with electoral concerns rather then any notion of balanced planning.

Out if interest JD, do you or have you ever owned a copy of this?

http://www.video125.co.uk/acatalog/Rosslare_to_Dublin.html

Judgement Day

invincibleirish wrote: »

But isn't the timetable as is because IR do not consider Rosslare a priority and trains to there take second place to DART and commuter services as surely they should?.

While, on the face of it, this statement is partially true, the reasons also have to do with the long term objective of CIE/IE to close the railway south of Arklow and perhaps in their wettest of dreams - south of Bray.

Was the Cork- Midleton alignment not preserved? The Irish taxpayer has greater concerns then keeping lightly used lines open.

The Cork-Midleton alignment was preserved but at what cost, whereas if the line had been properly maintained while closed - even at a cost of €1 million per annum - it would have been available for use at a fraction of the reopening costs. CIE's understanding of what mothballing means and the generally accepted understanding of the concept bear no relation to each other.


Perhaps my half brain isn't up to speed but how can you accurately predict Rosslare harbour, far far away from any major urban area, is going to see an increase in foot passengers? I'm all for proper planning but keeping a skeleton rail service open, whilst a decent bus service is already in situ, in the hope that one day Rosslare will return to its glory days passenger wis strikes me as trainspotter nostalgia rather then planning out for our future transport needs.

I am not 'accurately' predicting that Rosslare will see an increase in foot passengers but I do think that is very likely that it will. Access ports do not need to be anywhere near a major urban area to be successful. I have no nostalgia for Rosslare as a railway terminus. If you have been there you will know that it is a God forsaken kip that nobody could get nostalgic over.

Ireland has problems selling itself to tourists because we live in an expensive country, not because train connections to an out of the way ferry port are poor. I agree that the WRC money could have been spent in a better manner, but i smile at the mention of T21 & the NSS, they have nothing to do with Rosslare and verything to do with electoral concerns rather then any notion of balanced planning.

Oh, so that's all that wrong with our tourist industry? High prices! What about increasingly degraded product, weather, poor promotion, zombie hotels and, not forgetting poor access. Ever tried Dublin Port - nearly as crap as Rosslare Harbour - sorry Europort!

Out if interest JD, do you or have you ever owned a copy of this?

http://www.video125.co.uk/acatalog/Rosslare_to_Dublin.html

And NO I have never owned a copy of the DVD/video you mention - are you selling yours? If that is the best that you can do I would stick to Aston Villa or drinking in Doheny & Nesbitts with Colm McCarthy and Sean Barrett - or maybe you are one of them?

L1011

The Cork-Midleton alignment couldn't have just been flipped back in to use had it been maintained unused for all those years - track would have degraded and stations would have got out of date either way. Mothballing and redoing from semi-scratch probably costs exactly the same as keeping up to date an unused line.

As goes Dublin Port, it has very modern passenger facilities and bus links to the city centre - and hence to heavy rail to every served part of the land - for every single boat. Its nothing like Rosslare. If you want a passenger terminal to compare Rosslare to, try Ringaskiddy...

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

The Cork-Midleton alignment couldn't have just been flipped back in to use had it been maintained unused for all those years - track would have degraded and stations would have got out of date either way. Mothballing and redoing from semi-scratch probably costs exactly the same as keeping up to date an unused line.

As goes Dublin Port, it has very modern passenger facilities and bus links to the city centre - and hence to heavy rail to every served part of the land - for every single boat. Its nothing like Rosslare. If you want a passenger terminal to compare Rosslare to, try Ringaskiddy...

I didn't say it could be flipped back into service but I implied, and stick to my belief, that it could have been revamped at a fraction of the cost of the current reopening. This is based on my own experience of railway track maintenance/operations not wishful thinking. How exactly does a station get out of date? I would suggest that Midleton station was no more out of date than many other current IE stations. Remember it was used by passenger trains into the 1980s not the 1960s as some would have you believe.

Having used Dublin Port on quite a number of occasions in recent years I would dispute your description of it. Crummy restaurant facilities, poor bus service to the City Centre and many taxis won't even come down there when telephoned! My direct experience again. I expect to use it again shortly and hope that your description reflects the current reality.

L1011

It was used by rare specials, not daily commuter services. It'd have needed lifts or ramps, platform resurfacing, changes to platform access etc etc just as were done to every other commuter station got through the 90s/00s.

Crummy restaurant facilities are all you get in ANY ferry port. Its not as if anyone coming in to Dublin or Rosslare has come from something better. You generally can't get a cup of tea in Holyhead Harbour unless its a busy period - the cafe in the terminal building is usually closed; Dublin's is always open any time I'm through. The bus service works, poor or not its there. Getting a 2800 class from Rosslare Harbour is just as unpleasant an experience, but for longer, as getting a Dublin Bus...

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

It was used by rare specials, not daily commuter services. It'd have needed lifts or ramps, platform resurfacing, changes to platform access etc etc just as were done to every other commuter station got through the 90s/00s.

Crummy restaurant facilities are all you get in ANY ferry port. Its not as if anyone coming in to Dublin or Rosslare has come from something better. You generally can't get a cup of tea in Holyhead Harbour unless its a busy period - the cafe in the terminal building is usually closed; Dublin's is always open any time I'm through. The bus service works, poor or not its there. Getting a 2800 class from Rosslare Harbour is just as unpleasant an experience, but for longer, as getting a Dublin Bus...

Yes, the Cobh Junction/Youghal line was only in occasionally use but it was passed for passenger use and its upgrading could have been achieved at a fraction of the cost and, indeed, would have been if the bottomless State coffers had not been available. A private company could not have carried on in such a reckless fashion. Incidentally where are the lifts on the Cobh Junction/Cobh line?

You stated that Dublin Port has very modern passenger facilities but then backtrack by saying that crummy restaurant facilities are all you get in any port and that the bus service works - which is it? The bus service to Dublin Port is dire, as anyone who uses it will testify, and forget about taxis but I will wait to September to give you a more recent report on the present situation.

KC61

There is a special Dublin Bus bus connection for every Irish Ferries sailing, operating to/from Busarus.

Stena Line have a bus connection for its morning sailing (the only one that takes foot passengers) to/from Westmoreland Street operated by Mortons.

How many more buses do you need?

On topic, the timetable for the Rosslare line as proposed really is deficient from the perspective of the early morning services. It would be much better if the 0535 ex-Wexford actually started at 0655 ex-Rosslare, with the Waterford bound unit operating to Enniscorthy at 0535, and then returning direct to Waterford, crossing the Dublin bound train at Rosslare Strand at 0705 or so, rather than the crazy hotch-potch of services in this proposal.

Given that the other services will be operated by 3-car Intercity railcars rather than 6-car 2800s, I think that the inclusion of the 1205 to Arklow is a necessity.

A late evening (say 2100) service to Arklow or Gorey would be something I would like to see, but until the remaining level crossings are automated I suspect that would be a non-runner.

As far as the South Wexford line is concerned, I'm afraid that even I (pro-public transport as I am) would have difficulty in justifying its continued retention considering the high maintenance costs versus the fiscal returns. I would have liked to see how a morning Waterford-Connolly and evening return would have worked (opening an alternative market up), but I suspect that will be a non-starter given the current economic climate.

L1011

I don't see how stating its restaurant facilities aren't quite Michelin starred is backtracking on the facilities being modern - because they ARE modern. The terminal Irish Ferries use can't be more than 5 years old.

Where are the double-sided stations on the Glounthane to Cobh line? That line just had station upgrade works done anyway!

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

There is a special Dublin Bus bus connection for every Irish Ferries sailing, operating to/from Busarus.

They keep that quiet, I'd never of known about that.

KC61 wrote: »

Stena Line have a bus connection for its morning sailing (the only one that takes foot passengers) to/from Westmoreland Street operated by Mortons.

Slightly OT again but do you know why this is the only one that takes foot passangers, There are two ships (Adventurer and Nordic) that both run more than once each, seems strange that foot passangers only allowed on one of 4 plus sailings.

In regards to the railline the slow speed alone is enough to kill it. At this stage I'd never even consider getting a train to sought east over the bus, it's just to slow.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They keep that quiet, I'd never of known about that.

Slightly OT again but do you know why this is the only one that takes foot passangers, There are two ships (Adventurer and Nordic) that both run more than once each, seems strange that foot passangers only allowed on one of 4 plus sailings.

In regards to the railline the slow speed alone is enough to kill it. At this stage I'd never even consider getting a train to sought east over the bus, it's just to slow.

Well it is in the current Dublin Bus timetable and has been for many years and is also on the website as well.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/Ferry-Connections/

I stand corrected re Stena line - there are bus connections for both the 0820 and 2115 sailings now (previously only the 0820).

In reverse however it would appear only the 1350 service carries foot pax.

I've no idea why this is.

Judgement Day

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see how stating its restaurant facilities aren't quite Michelin starred is backtracking on the facilities being modern - because they ARE modern. The terminal Irish Ferries use can't be more than 5 years old.

Where are the double-sided stations on the Glounthane to Cobh line? That line just had station upgrade works done anyway!

My experiences relate to sailings to and from the Isle of Man and I can assure you there is NO bus provided and a shambles is the best way to describe what greets foot passengers arriving from the IoM.

As far as I can remember Cobh Junction, Fota, Rushbrooke all have two platforms and no lifts! A bit of thought and the need for lifts could have been eliminated at lot of IE stations but then everybody's business is nobody's business - the CIE/IE philosophy which has the concern insolvent!

I can't see what the age of the terminal at Dublin Port has to do with the services provided, be their crummy, overpriced restaurants or unreliable bus connections.

KC61

Judgement Day wrote: »

My experiences relate to sailings to and from the Isle of Man and I can assure you there is NO bus provided and a shambles is the best way to describe what greets foot passengers arriving from the IoM.

As far as I can remember Cobh Junction, Fota, Rushbrooke all have two platforms and no lifts! A bit of thought and the need for lifts could have been eliminated at lot of IE stations but then everybody's business is nobody's business - the CIE/IE philosophy which has the concern insolvent!

I can't see what the age of the terminal at Dublin Port has to do with the services provided, be their crummy, overpriced restaurants or unreliable bus connections.

The IOM ferry is maximum twice a week in high season and weekly at other times. While you have a point regarding connections for that service, it's hardly the basis of a comment regarding the entire port connections given the number of sailings that go through the port. Irish Ferries have 4 sailings a day and Stena two (one inbound), with guaranteed bus connections.

Judgement Day

'As far as the South Wexford line is concerned, I'm afraid that even I (pro-public transport as I am) would have difficulty in justifying its continued retention considering the high maintenance costs versus the fiscal returns. I would have liked to see how a morning Waterford-Connolly and evening return would have worked (opening an alternative market up), but I suspect that will be a non-starter given the current economic climate. '

KC61 - Of course experiments such as you suggest (Waterford/Wexford/Connolly) services should have been tried but given that CIE want the line closed why would they? A train to Waterford via Rosslare Strand would have opened up a whole new range of journey options and even with existing line speeds would still have been a faster option for passengers to there from as far north as Bray!

If 'Transport 21' had been rationally worked out, rather than on the back of an envelope, the reinstatement of the short direct curve linking the Dublin/Rosslare line with the Waterford/Rosslare line (gone since 1911) could should have been done.

The total silence of our useless TDs in the South East on the impending closure of the Limerick Junction/Rosslare is typical and the reason that this area has been an unemployment blackspot since well before the demise of the Celtic Slug.

thomasj

Judgement Day wrote: »

'As far as the South Wexford line is concerned, I'm afraid that even I (pro-public transport as I am) would have difficulty in justifying its continued retention considering the high maintenance costs versus the fiscal returns. I would have liked to see how a morning Waterford-Connolly and evening return would have worked (opening an alternative market up), but I suspect that will be a non-starter given the current economic climate. '

KC61 - Of course experiments such as you suggest (Waterford/Wexford/Connolly) services should have been tried but given that CIE want the line closed why would they? A train to Waterford via Rosslare Strand would have opened up a whole new range of journey options and even with existing line speeds would still have been a faster option for passengers to there from as far north as Bray!

If 'Transport 21' had been rationally worked out, rather than on the back of an envelope, the reinstatement of the short direct curve linking the Dublin/Rosslare line with the Waterford/Rosslare line (gone since 1911) could should have been done.

The total silence of our useless TDs in the South East on the impending closure of the Limerick Junction/Rosslare is typical and the reason that this area has been an unemployment blackspot since well before the demise of the Celtic Slug.

Would it be possible to run Heuston-Waterford-Rosslare Europort?

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

Would it be possible to run Heuston-Waterford-Rosslare Europort?

It could, but I think that there would be a bigger market for a Waterford/East Coast service rather than one from Heuston and Kilkenny to South Wexford.

loyatemu

KC61 wrote: »

It could, but I think that there would be a bigger market for a Waterford/East Coast service rather than one from Heuston and Kilkenny to South Wexford.

but realistically are there that many people looking to get to Waterford from Wicklow and Wexford? Its the old problem - the vast majority of passengers on all routes are going to\from Dublin, and Dublin, Belfast and Cork are the only actually "cities" on the island.

I'm a fairly regular user of the Rosslare line services but any train I get at least half the passengers are for Bray and Greystones which are adequately served by the Dart already. Beyond Gorey it must be practically empty. I can't see how adding a small number of Waterford passengers is going to change things.

(this new timetable is pants though...)

Judgement Day

By way of an apology to others here for why I come over as so angry in relation to my postings regarding CIE/IE........

Prior to the introduction of the awful 'Commuter' railcars on the DSE section I was on the point of running day trips for visitors (Heuston/Waterford/Connolly) but binned the idea when the railcars came in. Again, this was not some sort of airy fairy notion - I have run charter trains, coaches etc before but I only operate if I can provide a quality product and 'Commuter' railcars do not fit the bill. Recently, with the impending introduction of the 22000s on the DSE section I had dusted off my plans again but with the removal of the connection from Waterford to the DSE section the option is gone. Two of the most scenic lines in the country and no marketing of one and no service on the other!! Even when CIE didn't market the DSE section they always used it for publicity photographs for posters etc as somebody obviously recognised its scenic properties. I also have a guidebook ready to go for the Connolly/Rosslare line - it too was ready to go when the MkIIs were axed - but really is it worth it as everything involving CIE/IE always turns to shxxte :mad::mad::mad:

Judgement Day

loyatemu wrote: »

but realistically are there that many people looking to get to Waterford from Wicklow and Wexford? Its the old problem - the vast majority of passengers on all routes are going to\from Dublin, and Dublin, Belfast and Cork are the only actually "cities" on the island.

I'm a fairly regular user of the Rosslare line services but any train I get at least half the passengers are for Bray and Greystones which are adequately served by the Dart already. Beyond Gorey it must be practically empty. I can't see how adding a small number of Waterford passengers is going to change things.

(this new timetable is pants though...)

I assure you that despite CIE/IEs best efforts, Bus Eireann's 20 daily return services to Rosslare Harbour and 'The Wexford Bus' 9 daily return services the train still carries quite a good number of passengers to Enniscorthy and Wexford. If it still carried Fastrack the economics would be vastly improved since the cheapest rate was €20 station to station - as much as a day return from Enniscorthy to Connolly! Adding 'a small number of Waterford' passengers would also help the economics!

thomasj

loyatemu wrote: »

but realistically are there that many people looking to get to Waterford from Wicklow and Wexford? Its the old problem - the vast majority of passengers on all routes are going to\from Dublin, and Dublin, Belfast and Cork are the only actually "cities" on the island.

I'm a fairly regular user of the Rosslare line services but any train I get at least half the passengers are for Bray and Greystones which are adequately served by the Dart already. Beyond Gorey it must be practically empty. I can't see how adding a small number of Waterford passengers is going to change things.

(this new timetable is pants though...)

That was exactly my point! And does someone from cork or galway want to travel the whole way upto Dublin then to take a tain to wexford? Likewise mayo etc.

Judgement Day

thomasj wrote: »

That was exactly my point! And does someone from cork or galway want to travel the whole way upto Dublin then to take a tain to wexford? Likewise mayo etc.

Thomasj - I think we are all getting are wires crossed here as what loyatemu seems to be suggesting is that people only wish to travel between Cork/Dublin/Belfast whereas you think there are other journeys people wish to undertake without having to travel through Dublin?

thomasj

Judgement Day wrote: »

Thomasj - I think we are all getting are wires crossed here as what loyatemu seems to be suggesting is that people only wish to travel between Cork/Dublin/Belfast whereas you think there are other journeys people wish to undertake without having to travel through Dublin?

Yep, I actually misread that! My view is that for someone travelling through the Heuston side (say kildare outwards) the only option is via Dublin based on the lack of proper Waterford-Rosslare connection. Therefore IE should look at extending the Current Heuston-waterford service to Rosslare, therefore providing a proper connection for Cork, Galway, Mayo, Tipp, Kilkenny, carlow, waterford customers through a connection point along the Heuston line

L1011

Judgement Day wrote: »

My experiences relate to sailings to and from the Isle of Man and I can assure you there is NO bus provided and a shambles is the best way to describe what greets foot passengers arriving from the IoM.

(snip)

I can't see what the age of the terminal at Dublin Port has to do with the services provided, be their crummy, overpriced restaurants or unreliable bus connections.

I'd presume that IOM Steam Packet don't want to pay to use the far better port facilities Dublin Port have for other lines, then.

As goes the age, considering the crux of my argument was "modern" I think its extremely important!

patrickbrophy18

The main factor that plagues the Rosslare line is that it becomes single track beyond Bray. While I am not suggesting double tracking the entire way down to Rosslare, I am suggesting that a good stretch of the line could be double tracked where the land is relatively flat. From what I can see of the line, the Greystones to Enniscorthy stretch is for the most part very flat indeed. At some stage, this could be double tracked as it seems to be the most ideal option. A single track line can seriously hinder both speed and frequency, consequently leading to an increase in journey length thereby leading to a decreased desire to embark on the journey.

Another factor that greatly reduces speed is the fact that the Train can sometimes be sandwiched tightly between two DART services. On top of this, between Grand Canal Dock and the level crossing before Booterstown, the train goes at a snails pace. It is obvious that the amount of level crossings along this stretch are out of sync with the trains passage causing it to travel at a much slower speed. A solution to this could be to keep the level crossings closed for between 5 and 10 minutes from the time it leaves Pearse. Therefore, this could greatly reduce the journey length between Pearse and Dun Laoghaire from 15 minutes to potentially 5 minutes provided that the train driver is not tentative.

bmaxi

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

A solution to this could be to keep the level crossings closed for between 5 and 10 minutes from the time it leaves Pearse. Therefore, this could greatly reduce the journey length between Pearse and Dun Laoghaire from 15 minutes to potentially 5 minutes provided that the train driver is not tentative.

There are drivers who use the Rock Road marching on your house right now.

L1011

bmaxi wrote: »

There are drivers who use the Rock Road marching on your house right now.

Why, to celebrate not having to let traffic merge off Strand Road at Merrion Gates? :P

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

. A solution to this could be to keep the level crossings closed for between 5 and 10 minutes from the time it leaves Pearse. Therefore, this could greatly reduce the journey length between Pearse and Dun Laoghaire from 15 minutes to potentially 5 minutes provided that the train driver is not tentative.

That will never happen, the traffic gets bad enough when they are closed for 2 minutes never mid 5 or 10.

Totally impractical and pointless to backup traffic to Blackrock in the mornings for the sake of 3-5 mins for the few people who take that train.

A better Another solution could be to use Bray as the terminus for all southern trains and simply switch to Darts from there. Bray has the capacity for it and DART aren't that much slower from there in due to all the shuffling that goes on currently. Would probably allow more frequency on the Dart also as less through trains.

bmaxi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That will never happen, the traffic gets bad enough when they are closed for 2 minutes never mid 5 or 10.

Totally impractical and pointless to backup traffic to Blackrock in the mornings for the sake of 3-5 mins for the few people who take that train.

A better Another solution could be to use Bray as the terminus for all southern trains and simply switch to Darts from there. Bray has the capacity for it and DART aren't that much slower from there in due to all the shuffling that goes on currently. Would probably allow more frequency on the Dart also as less through trains.

This is what I suggested earlier in the thread except I used Greystones. Bray is probably a better option as it has the space and the siding but also more traffic volume.
One thing that hadn't occurred to me until it was posted here earlier, is the number of manually controlled and uncontrolled crossings south of Greystones, this could be a big problem.
Incidentally, I was passing one of these uncontrolled crossings, just north of Gorey, last night. A car was sitting on the track and the passenger was closing the gate behind it. The gate in front was still closed and, I presume, locked. This was about 19:10 and the train from Dublin was due in Gorey at 19:20. I thought this was very dangerous as it didn't allow much room for manoeuvre if anything went wrong. Is there an etiquette for people who have access to these crossings? AFAIK there is only one house on the other side so presumably the occupiers are aware of train times.

Cookie_Monster

bmaxi wrote: »

. A car was sitting on the track and the passenger was closing the gate behind it. The gate in front was still closed and, I presume, locked. This was about 19:10 and the train from Dublin was due in Gorey at 19:20. I thought this was very dangerous as it didn't allow much room for manoeuvre if anything went wrong.

WTF:eek:
Moron

Are there camera on these crossing cos he should definitly be reported for being such a retarded muppet putting his life and those on the train due in such danger.

thomasj

Accroding to the online irishrail.ie timetable, the current timetable will now run until the 31st october 2009.

Runs every Monday to Saturday from 15 June until 31 October;

patrickbrophy18

CookieMonster, the idea of changing trains at Bray is madness as it makes the journey indirect. On top of this, there can be a wait of up to 10 minutes for the next service depending on the time it arrives. As well as that, the DART will be making a halt at every station the entire way in. Essentially, this increases the journey length substantially. Furthermore, the fact that the trains terminate at Dublin Connelly means that the trains will go from the end of the line to the heart of the capital in one go as opposed to two.

The mere fact that the Rosslare line is underfunded contributes to the bottleneck that builds up between Connelly and Pearse and to a lesser extent Bray. If the line between Enniscorthy and Greystones were to be double tracked, it would allow for massive increase in the frequency of trains south of Greystones. The journey length between Greystones and Bray is somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes which means that the slack for trains coming in opposite directions would be somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Therefore, if there was double track between Greystones and Enniscorthy, the frequency of service could become up to half hourly. This would mean that a large portion of Commuter services from Maynooth and Dundalk/Drogheda which currently terminate in Pearse or Connelly could continue on to County Wexford.

As a result, there would be a much higher availability of parking bays in Dublin's train stations. An additional result to this could be the re-instatement of services between Connelly and Heuston via the Phoenix Park Tunnel, an asset that is being completely wasted. An example of a railway journey that could be introduced is an Enniscorthy to Athlone service via the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Vic_08

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

CookieMonster, the idea of changing trains at Bray is madness as it makes the journey indirect. On top of this, there can be a wait of up to 10 minutes for the next service depending on the time it arrives. As well as that, the DART will be making a halt at every station the entire way in. Essentially, this increases the journey length substantially. Furthermore, the fact that the trains terminate at Dublin Connelly means that the trains will go from the end of the line to the heart of the capital in one go as opposed to two.

The mere fact that the Rosslare line is underfunded contributes to the bottleneck that builds up between Connelly and Pearse and to a lesser extent Bray. If the line between Enniscorthy and Greystones were to be double tracked, it would allow for massive increase in the frequency of trains south of Greystones. The journey length between Greystones and Bray is somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes which means that the slack for trains coming in opposite directions would be somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Therefore, if there was double track between Greystones and Enniscorthy, the frequency of service could become up to half hourly. This would mean that a large portion of Commuter services from Maynooth and Dundalk/Drogheda which currently terminate in Pearse or Connelly could continue on to County Wexford.

As a result, there would be a much higher availability of parking bays in Dublin's train stations. An additional result to this could be the re-instatement of services between Connelly and Heuston via the Phoenix Park Tunnel, an asset that is being completely wasted. An example of a railway journey that could be introduced is an Enniscorthy to Athlone service via the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

And how many people exactly do you know that would need to go from Enniscorthy to Athlone on a regular basis?

Portarlington-Athlone
Athlone-Galway
Limerick-Limerick Junction
Kildare-Waterford
Maynooth-Longford

All those carry more traffic and would be more in need of doubling before south of Greystones.

I don't know where you get the idea that doubling would greatly increase speed, it wouldn't and the frequency is nowhere near capacity for a single track line.

You are right about one thing though, terminating the trains at Bray and expecting passengers to fight for space on often overcrowded DARTs is a terrible idea.

Increasing capacity on the loop line should have been the number one priority for IE rather than all the numerous other high-profile projects completed in the last 10 years.

New signalling, altering sidings and station layouts to streamline movements and various other behind-the-scenes improvements don't attract the headlines or provide ribbon-cutting opportunities but these are the things that would transform the whole network. That and some decent timetabling.

Instead we got numerous expensive vanity projects such as Greystones electrification and replacing stock that was not close to being life-expired that ultimately added little value to the network.

Removing the level crossing should have been the first condition of approval for the re-build of Lansdowne Road but no, all that time and money spent on building a new stadium and right outside the entrance there is one of the busiest rail llines crossing the primary access road along with a station that will still be closed to DISCOURAGE rail travel to/from matches as the station is still too small.

How much would it have cost to re-align and electrify the through line to use the third platform at Grand Canal Dock so terminating Maynooth/Northern trains could serve GCD and reverse without fouling the Northbound through line?

DubOnHoliday

Yesterday, the 16:40 to Gorey was in Connolly, ready to go. Do you think it went? Nah, in comes a dart into platform 6, waits a minute for passengers and at 16:42 proceeds ahead of the Gorey service, which then of course crawls along to Bray, VERY FRUSTRATING.

loyatemu

that Dart is scheduled to go ahead of the Gorey train. Its ludicrous but presumably unless it is running very late it will get sent out first. I get the 1640 fairly regularly and it is incredibly slow, it just crawls along, but ridiculously it is non-stop from Lansdowne and Bray.

Hungerford

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

Yesterday, the 16:40 to Gorey was in Connolly, ready to go. Do you think it went? Nah, in comes a dart into platform 6, waits a minute for passengers and at 16:42 proceeds ahead of the Gorey service, which then of course crawls along to Bray, VERY FRUSTRATING.

I can't see the logic behind that at all - even if the Dart was running late, the Gorey train would be well clear of it once it left the city centre stations.

KC61

bmaxi wrote: »

Is there an etiquette for people who have access to these crossings? AFAIK there is only one house on the other side so presumably the occupiers are aware of train times.

There certainly are rules to be followed:
http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/Safety_Booklet.pdf

DubOnHoliday

Since the new timetable came in, the early train from Wicklow hasn't been on time once. From Kilcoole it is supposed to leave at 6:49, however it most days exceeds the old timetable time of 6:54. An extra five minutes waiting in the cold each morning, Thanks!

bmaxi

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

Since the new timetable came in, the early train from Wicklow hasn't been on time once. From Kilcoole it is supposed to leave at 6:49, however it most days exceeds the old timetable time of 6:54. An extra five minutes waiting in the cold each morning, Thanks!

Maybe that's to make up for the scheduled five minute journey time between Tara St. and Connolly. Jesus, I could push the fcuking thing that distance, in that time.

dowlingm

Enniscorthy-Athlone? Get BE to create an Enniscorthy-Carlow route to meet the 73 dep 1655. As journeys go, it's a damn sight shorter (~160km) and cheaper than routing into Dublin and out through Portarlington, not to mention putting in accessible platforms on the PPT exit from Heuston.

That said, I'd be all in favour of IE running their own buses (or outsourcing to a private operator as their carrier) to create cross-radial same ticket connections such as Mullingar-Tullamore-Portlaoise-Carlow-Enniscorthy. This can't/won't happen with BE because of the PD-fuelled obsession with competition within the same corporate enterprise (CIE).

KC61

bmaxi wrote: »

Maybe that's to make up for the scheduled five minute journey time between Tara St. and Connolly. Jesus, I could push the fcuking thing that distance, in that time.

That's end of journey recovery time I'm afraid!

If you look at any intercity journey, the last segment will always take longer than the same journey in reverse - this is where the schedulers include recovery time, in other words additional time to cope with unexpected delays.

This is standard practice among all Intercity rail operators.

bmaxi

KC61 wrote: »

That's end of journey recovery time I'm afraid!

.

Is that code for, "we're five minutes late but actually we're not"?

KC61

bmaxi wrote: »

Is that code for, "we're five minutes late but actually we're not"?

Recovery time is something that all bus and rail operators build into their schedule to give some "wriggle room" for something going wrong, to give what should be a definitive arrival time, and also to minimise delays on later services as a result.

It is standard practice.

However, it could certainly be argued that the amounts of recovery time used by Irish Rail on some services is excessive. However, that is a different argument!

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

Recovery time is something that all bus and rail operators build into their schedule to give some "wriggle room" for something going wrong, to give what should be a definitive arrival time, and also to minimise delays on later services as a result.

It is standard practice.

However, it could certainly be argued that the amounts of recovery time used by Irish Rail on some services is excessive. However, that is a different argument!

so the cork train being up to 20minutes late in portlaoise is to allow for it being only ten minutes late getting into kent station? and on topic there is an hourly bus service to rosslare harbour so this ridiculous train service should be scrapped!

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

so the cork train being up to 20minutes late in portlaoise is to allow for it being only ten minutes late getting into kent station?

No that is not what I said.

The train shouldn't be late in Portlaoise in the first place!

However, in order to plan movements, and rosters etc, every bus/rail timetable has some recovery time built into it so that if something does not go strictly according to plan then there is some added time in the schedule to allow for it.

The rail companies reflect this recovery time in the last part of the journey in the timetable. You could argue all day as to where it should be, but the end of the journey is where it is generally slotted in.

You could argue that it should not be there at all, but the reality is that we don't live in a perfect world, and if it was not there its absence could cause serious knock-on effects throughout the day.

The additional point that I made was that in some cases the recovery time has been excessive.

foggy_lad

i agree that the recovery times are somewhat excessive in many cases but the timetables are far from realistic when the trains are being put in stations that they cant possibly reach realistically in the times given!

end to end station times are regularly out by ten minutes (dublin-cork usually takes a full 3hours but is scheduled for 2h50minutes) but my point is that often stations in-between have trains arriving and departing up to 30minutes off scheduled times so trains arriving to stations like portlaoise are almost always seriously late!

DubOnHoliday

This had got side tracked somewhat. At the end of the day, we're compelled to be down on the platform waiting for a scheduled service that is always late since the new timetable. Whatever is happening to the train from Wicklow and further south to delay it, I dont know.

KC61

There are a significant number of temporary speed restrictions on the Dublin-Cork line that are not helping the punctuality of services, in particular a 75mph restriction from Newbridge to Portlaoise.

As far as the Rosslare line is concerned, the perfomance of the new 22000 Class railcars (particularly on the Arklow-Wicklow section) does not appear to be what you would expect. There are a fair number of permanent and temporary speed restrictions south of Wicklow that see the trains decelerating and accelerating again, and the new trains seem far less able to handle this and the banks climbing to Rathdrum than the 2800 Class could.

Why this is I don't know.

bmaxi

KC61 wrote: »

As far as the Rosslare line is concerned, the perfomance of the new 22000 Class railcars (particularly on the Arklow-Wicklow section) does not appear to be what you would expect. There are a fair number of permanent and temporary speed restrictions south of Wicklow that see the trains decelerating and accelerating again, and the new trains seem far less able to handle this and the banks climbing to Rathdrum than the 2800 Class could.

Why this is I don't know.

You see, this is what I don't understand. I recall a statement from IE, when the 22000s were trialling on the Rosslare line, of how pleased they were with the railcars and how they were particularly well suited to the line. Now you say they struggle to get up the hills?
Does not equate.

KC61

I don't recall them ever saying they were perfectly suited to the line.

The fact is they are having serious problems coping with the speed restrictions and also with the Rathdrum and Arklow banks (not of the financial variety!). Why I don't know, but they just do not seem to have the same perfomance characteristics as the 2800 fleet, which whatever anyone says about them, were and are the most reliable class of train in the entire fleet.

I would imagine it is something that the engineers will be investigating.