Opposing Property Tax

AntiPropertyTax

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

In particular if there are any workers on low incomes , people who are newly unemployed but who own their own homes, elderly people who have small incomes who are worried about being forced to move by a high property tax.

Also anyone who paid stamp duty in the last 10 years and feels angry the government would consider bringing in another tax , or just anyone who feels a property tax is unfair as it doesn't take account of income or ability to pay.

So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

ei.sdraob

you will get no love from people who didnt buy into the celtic tiger "must own house" mentality that is partially responsible for the current mess


property should be taxed, especially to discourage and hit hard all them scumbags who taught they are being cute by doing BTL (33billion in loans are BTL chancers), and it will also hit these lovely developers who are sitting on property and refusing to lower prices back down to earth

bmaxi

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you will get no love from people who didnt buy into the celtic tiger "must own house" mentality that is partially responsible for the current mess


property should be taxed, especially to discourage and hit hard all them scumbags who taught they are being cute by doing BTL (33billion in loans are BTL chancers), and it will also hit these lovely developers who are sitting on property and refusing to lower prices back down to earth

Not everyone who owns their own house bought in the Celtic Tiger era and if you think that any FF led administration would bring in a property tax that would have a detrimental effect on property developers you're living in cloud cuckoo land, it's called shi**ing on your own doorstep. Watch what happens with SCAMA.

AntiPropertyTax

I'm talking about ordinary working people, living in ordinary sized homes. People who bought homes just as places to bring up families and have somewhere to settle down.

We could debate the rights and wrongs / advantages and disadvantages of different taxes for weeks, but I'm really looking to hear from other people who are already opposed to property tax, so we can try and organise a campaign to try and prevent it.

mikemac

I'm from the most beautiful area of Ireland, Tipp North!

But I can think of many families with large houses and land worth a lot of money (not so much anymore ) but realy, they are just small farmers and many are retired.

So if you say your house is worth 400k and here is your bill, many won't be able to pay. Rich on paper but have very little money realy. Sell land to pay the tax bill I suppose but you don't do that lightly

I'm not sure how it's going to work

AntiPropertyTax

mikemac wrote: »

I'm from the most beautiful area of Ireland, Tipp North!

But I can think of many families with large houses and land worth a lot of money (not so much anymore ) but realy, they are just small farmers and many are retired.

So if you say your house is worth 400k and here is your bill, many won't be able to pay. Rich on paper but have very little money realy. Sell land to pay the tax bill I suppose but you don't do that lightly

I'm not sure how it's going to work

Yes thats the big problem with a property tax - it throws up all kinds of unfair situations like widows living on their own with small pensions, but because their home is located in a wealthy area now, they would be forced to move because of the tax on the value of their home rather than their income. Also situations where couples bought their homes and now one of them has become unemployed, and they are just about keeping their heads above water. A property tax would force them to sell at the worst possible time.

DJDC

The Irish and property development have the same relationship as a gambler and gambling. As soon as recession starts to slow down, you can guarantee the country is going to become as obsessed with buying and selling to houses to each other as they were before the collapse.

Its a pyschology that needs to be removed for the good of society so we can focus on more productive areas like manufacturing, science, finance etc. Property taxes is one way of reducing this maniac need to own mutliple properties and investment portfolios.

You are right about many people living in properties that arent representive of their income, the "fur dressing gown with no knickers" brigade. Perhaps some kind of tax relief system could work for these people?

rkeane

DJDC wrote: »

The Irish and property development have the same relationship as a gambler and gambling. As soon as recession starts to slow down, you can guarantee the country is going to become as obsessed with buying and selling to houses to each other as they were before the collapse.

Its a pyschology that needs to be removed for the good of society so we can focus on more productive areas like manufacturing, science, finance etc. Property taxes is one way of reducing this maniac need to own mutliple properties and investment portfolios.

You are right about many people living in properties that arent representive of their income, the "fur dressing gown with no knickers" brigade. Perhaps some kind of tax relief system could work for these people?

Totally agree with the above, we need to put in place measures such as this to stop this nonsense of people owning mutliple properties....tax the hell out of them. I also think some sort of relief should be brought in for the ordinary homeowner in difficult circumstances.

bmaxi

I'm afraid a property tax is going to come regardless of which party is in power, it was a mistake to abolish household rates in the first place. I'm sure a simple means test could be applied to decide who does or doesn't pay or at what rate, simply calculating rates on the square footage of the property is not an equitable situation because,as has been said, a widow may be living in a substantial family home but lack the means to support it.
I really can't see from what other source the necessary taxation is going to come, income tax, VAT, excise are not really viable options.
One thing we should oppose, by all means available and I mean all, is any attempt to privatise water supplies. We've seen what has happened in the UK, could you imagine what would happen if a Goodman or a Fitzpatrick got their hands on these.

AntiPropertyTax

Just to clarify - I'm just talking about opposing property tax on ordinary houses, and I totally agree with the principal of taxing 2nd / 3rd etc homes.
If you have 2 houses, and you can't afford the tax - you can sell one of them. But we should not be creating a sitation where people are forced to sell and move from their homes because of a property tax being far beyond their income / ability to pay.
And thats whats going to happen. As if someone loses their job, or has to take a pay cut or reduction in hours, and their income drops , the property tax would not take any account of that change in their circumstances.

Biggins

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

...So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

Count me in.

AntiPropertyTax

Biggins wrote: »

Count me in.

Thanks.

I think the first phase of any campaign would be writing / e-mailing / phoning TD's ,Senators, councillors, and any other public representatives to voice our opposition, and explain why this tax would be so un-fair.

The second phase would be publicising the effects and threat that a property tax would pose to specific groups : the lower waged, the elderly , the newly unemployed. Making leaflets and posters to put up in locations where these people will see them, writing to local newspapers, etc. Its essential that people realsie property tax is going to affect ordinary working class people in places like Finglas and Tallaght, and not just people living in mansions and castles.

The third phase would be trying to contact and link up with organisations who have large memberships who could be affected by this new tax, and ask for their membership to join in the opposition campaign. For example charitys that help the elderly.

Phase four would be in the weeks leading up to the budget, to hold local meetings in streets, estates, apartment blocks, etc to get petitions and organise local demonstrations.

Phase five would be a refusal to pay campaign, but I believe when people out there see how much hardship and problems a property tax would cause for them and their families, they will make the government think again and opt instead for a fairer option like local income tax.

mikemac

Are you willing to go to jail over this?

You mentioned a refusal to pay, would you go as far as the bin tax campaigners a few years ago?

Just interested to know

AntiPropertyTax

Well if it comes to a point where the choice is either being forced to sell and move at an enormous loss, or making a stand and fighting back, then its better to stand and fight.

But I actually think the government will buckle before that. Even this government isn't daft enough to force working taxpayers out of their homes and jobs for the sake of 800 or 900 euros a year.

galwayrush

mikemac wrote: »

Are you willing to go to jail over this?

You mentioned a refusal to pay, would you go as far as the bin tax campaigners a few years ago?

Just interested to know

I am, no way am i going to pay another tax,:(

Joey the lips

I love you notion and agree and support you. If your looking for support on boards...........You will be waiting!

From my understanding those who subscride here fail to see a couple of things

1. The bin tax is not a waste reducing tax!

2. Water tax is not far away

3. Property tax is not far away.


There is also a terriable apathy that "Well if i have to pay it so should you" especially about the bin tax. I have always argued that if the bin tax was defeated then we would never see a property or water tax.

But rant over count me in.

Mario007

Hey OP, firstly fair play to you for wanting to be active.

However I do not understand what is the big fuss about property tax. The truth is property tax is long overdue, most of the other european countries have property taxes, it's standard practice. in fact some pay tax on property and another tax on the developed land.
Also with the big need to bridge the gap in public spending and the wide public not willing to take into consideration any sort of cuts the government has to try and put up taxes instead(i'm not defending the current government here, i have no sympathy for them whatsoever).
With regards to property tax I believe we are creating a hysteria, because we're taking out of the context. if the leaked info is true, the property tax, carbon tax and water supply charges are to be offset with the decrease in the income taxes or local authority rates for example. this is not about just the property tax this is about changing the tax system and the tax base so we wouldn't run into difficulties such as these anytime in the future

mikemac

Joey the lips wrote: »

There is also a terriable apathy that "Well if i have to pay it so should you" especially about the bin tax.

People in rural areas and in a group water scheme have been paying for both water and bin changes for years.
So meh, not much support from me for the city dwellers who feel they are somehow exempt from charges.

A property tax is new, well since 1977 anyway

SeanW

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Thanks.

I think the first phase of any campaign would be writing / e-mailing / phoning TD's ,Senators, councillors, and any other public representatives to voice our opposition, and explain why this tax would be so un-fair.

The second phase would be publicising the effects and threat that a property tax would pose to specific groups : the lower waged, the elderly , the newly unemployed. Making leaflets and posters to put up in locations where these people will see them, writing to local newspapers, etc. Its essential that people realsie property tax is going to affect ordinary working class people in places like Finglas and Tallaght, and not just people living in mansions and castles.

The third phase would be trying to contact and link up with organisations who have large memberships who could be affected by this new tax, and ask for their membership to join in the opposition campaign. For example charitys that help the elderly.

Phase four would be in the weeks leading up to the budget, to hold local meetings in streets, estates, apartment blocks, etc to get petitions and organise local demonstrations.

Phase five would be a refusal to pay campaign, but I believe when people out there see how much hardship and problems a property tax would cause for them and their families, they will make the government think again and opt instead for a fairer option like local income tax.

Methinks I could do some of that. Lemme know when you get something organised.

NewDubliner

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

Best way to tackle it is to oppose any tax based on market value and to insist it is based on property size with a reduction for family size. It should be the case that the same size family in the same size house in Dublin will pay the same tax as anyone in Leitrim.

The rift this will cause in FF as its Dublin support crumbles will probably mean they'll never be able to agree the details.

Dob74

NewDubliner wrote: »

Best way to tackle it is to oppose any tax based on market value and to insist it is based on property size with a reduction for family size. It should be the case that the same size family in the same size house in Dublin will pay the same tax as anyone in Leitrim.

The rift this will cause in FF as its Dublin support crumbles will probably mean they'll never be able to agree the details.

+1
It should be based on the size of the house. Why should someone in a city ,where it must be more cost effective to look after the streets, sewers, etc, have to pay the same or more as someone living in the middle of nowhere.
I dont mind paying water charges or local tax as long as it goes to what it is paid for. Maintance of the water system is not free but should not be that expensive since we live in a country with plenty of fresh water sources.
Anyone who paid stamp duty should be allowed an allowance for SP already paid. And Vat paid on a new house.

SeanW

NewDubliner wrote: »

Best way to tackle it is to oppose any tax based on market value and to insist it is based on property size with a reduction for family size. It should be the case that the same size family in the same size house in Dublin will pay the same tax as anyone in Leitrim.

What about an unemployed/working poor/retired single person in Leitrim who inherited the family home?

Sounds like in your scenario, they would be taxed out of it even faster than what the "official" plan is.

As to why I don't believe we should have a property tax - I think spending cuts would be better. Firstly there is still a lot of waste, the McCarthy report was a good start but there are still plenty of nonsense like public service unions opposing every possible streamlining of services, wastrels who cannot be fired/get promoted based on seniority. The dole is too high, it was raised too much during the bubble.
Since the government is spending other people's money on other people it has no interest in getting value for money or ensuring quality delivery. Therefore, there are a lot of services that I feel the Middle Class should be able to get on it's own rather than via the government, so it would be more efficient for the government to provide things like schools only to poor people but give the middle class a commensurate tax credit for all the things they stop recieving. Be a lot less money wasted that way.

A property tax is just a lazy answer by a pathetic excuse for a government that chooses to screw the poor and the middle class to bail out the developers and keep themselves in the highest salaries and all the mercs and perks and appease the wasters in the public service.

It also takes no consideration for the person's ability to pay, also I've seen property taxes in action and I don't like them. I've got a relative in the States who pays $6000 a year for a house that's about twice the size of my bedroom. That's after a $1000 senior citizens' discount. And she's on a very limited income as well.

If we let the bastards in Leinster House away with this, this will be our future.

Besides: We are not going to tax our way to prosperity.

For these reasons and more, I am implacably opposed to a Property Tax.

gerry28

You've got my support - i'm very nervous about a property tax.

I built my own house on a reasonably sized site. I built it over time and on a shoe string budget. I'm low paid and depending on the way this tax is applied I could have to sell up - a very depressing thought.

meglome

I think there's little doubt we're getting a property tax. I have sympathy for those who paid stamp duty but we should have had this property tax all along. It might have stopped some of the bubble even. I suggest we* should have stopped voting for Fianna Fail and maybe it wouldn't have even come to this, it's probably too late now to do anything else.

*I didn't but obviously lots of people did.

Joey the lips

Mario007 wrote: »

Hey OP, firstly fair play to you for wanting to be active.

However I do not understand what is the big fuss about property tax. The truth is property tax is long overdue, most of the other european countries have property taxes, it's standard practice. in fact some pay tax on property and another tax on the developed land.
Also with the big need to bridge the gap in public spending and the wide public not willing to take into consideration any sort of cuts the government has to try and put up taxes instead(i'm not defending the current government here, i have no sympathy for them whatsoever).
With regards to property tax I believe we are creating a hysteria, because we're taking out of the context. if the leaked info is true, the property tax, carbon tax and water supply charges are to be offset with the decrease in the income taxes or local authority rates for example. this is not about just the property tax this is about changing the tax system and the tax base so we wouldn't run into difficulties such as these anytime in the future

This is one of the logics I cannot understand. Offsetting against tax???? Hummm i pay 20% or 40% tax the goverment say sens me a bill for 1000 euro for my water tax. I get 200 euro or 400 euro back. How does this in any way pay for my tax? A very confusing statement and one which Dermot Lacy of Labour has been costantly making since his failed promised to abolish the waste charges,

mikemac wrote: »

People in rural areas and in a group water scheme have been paying for both water and bin changes for years.
So meh, not much support from me for the city dwellers who feel they are somehow exempt from charges.

A property tax is new, well since 1977 anyway

City dewellers.... I like like it. This is the attitude i was talking about, Reural dewellers have the choice to take ownership of group water schemes and hire and fire there own contractors. They also have the choice of who to use for there waste. a city deweller has the advantage of economy of scale which a rural deweller does not! However a city deweller also pays more for property which means property tax will be higher they also pay more for car insurence.

Its a poor reason to say well I am paying it why shouldnt you, Lastly what the reural dewellers fail to see as these charges are increasing the standing charge for reural dewellers. How? research it and see! no amount of information can convince the stubborn.


What a property tax will actually do is inclease the strain on peoples incomes and reduce the amount of disposable income left( If you have any at this stage) A massive amount in Dublin will be subsadised by the goverment( Council housing) so all you rural house dewellers will be paying for a lot of city dewellers. But I know that the stubbornness to analysise the situation did not stop you seeing that.

AntiPropertyTax

I think the first part of any campaign should be for us as individuals to contact by e-mail or post our local TD's in our own constituencys, as well as Brian Cowen and Michael Martin (I suggest him because he is most likely to be the next FF leader).

Addresses and e-mails of all TD's are in the State Services directory of the phone book. You can also send e-mails to Fianna Fail TD's via their website.

I think the key points to make are :

1. Property tax will be very unfair to anyone on low wages or incomes because it is not linked to peoples income or ability to pay.

2. It will have a very bad effect on wage inflation as low paid workers will try to pass any sudden new tax onto their employers. This will make Ireland less competitive.

3. A property tax will prove a dis-incentive for people to move from social welfare into low wage jobs. For them it may be better to stay on SW if it includes exemptions from prop tax.

4. A refusal to pay campaign, will diminish the ammount that any prop tax will bring in. So instead of bringing in 4 billion, a major refusal to pay campaign could reduce this to 2 billion, and make it not worth the political problems it will bring for Fianna Fail.

5. Remind the TD's that a property tax will target a demographic group (homeowners) who are most likely to actually vote at the next elections.

6. Suggest alternatives - local income tax for example that will be easier to introduce and which will be linked to income and therefore fairer.

7. We need to persuade Fianna Fail that being "the party that introduces a property tax" will be electoral suicide not just at the next election, but will prevent them re-gaining power for 2 or 3 terms.

Mario007

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

I think the first part of any campaign should be for us as individuals to contact by e-mail or post our local TD's in our own constituencys, as well as Brian Cowen and Michael Martin (I suggest him because he is most likely to be the next FF leader).

Addresses and e-mails of all TD's are in the State Services directory of the phone book. You can also send e-mails to Fianna Fail TD's via their website.

I think the key points to make are :

1. Property tax will be very unfair to anyone on low wages or incomes because it is not linked to peoples income or ability to pay.

2. It will have a very bad effect on wage inflation as low paid workers will try to pass any sudden new tax onto their employers. This will make Ireland less competitive.

3. A property tax will prove a dis-incentive for people to move from social welfare into low wage jobs. For them it may be better to stay on SW if it includes exemptions from prop tax.

4. A refusal to pay campaign, will diminish the ammount that any prop tax will bring in. So instead of bringing in 4 billion, a major refusal to pay campaign could reduce this to 2 billion, and make it not worth the political problems it will bring for Fianna Fail.

5. Remind the TD's that a property tax will target a demographic group (homeowners) who are most likely to actually vote at the next elections.

6. Suggest alternatives - local income tax for example that will be easier to introduce and which will be linked to income and therefore fairer.

7. We need to persuade Fianna Fail that being "the party that introduces a property tax" will be electoral suicide not just at the next election, but will prevent them re-gaining power for 2 or 3 terms.

though i am pro property tax i like your very well created points that show you truly did your research, so i feel i just have to say well done!

with regards to whom to address such emails, I'd suggest Lenihan and Dermot Ahern(he's also tipped to be the new FF leader) too. as i said i dont like your idea but you're proffesional about it, which is something that needs admiration these days

TaxiManMartin

There should be a property tax. But only for those who havent paid tax (stamp duty) on their property already.

Stamp duty should be abolished first off.
Then Property tax should be payable on all properties bought from then on.

We're seriously thinking about buying a house, and are prepared to pay property tax on it.
But no way in hell are we ever buying if there is to be stamp duty AND property tax. We'll emigrate first.

Double taxation is not the way to go here.

Mario007

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

There should be a property tax. But only for those who havent paid tax (stamp duty) on their property already.

Stamp duty should be abolished first off.
Then Property tax should be payable on all properties bought from then on.

We're seriously thinking about buying a house, and are prepared to pay property tax on it.
But no way in hell are we ever buying if there is to be stamp duty AND property tax. We'll emigrate first.

Double taxation is not the way to go here.

actually thanks for pointing that out, i completely forgot...the stamp duty is also rumored to be abolished should property tax come in. thats all speculation(as is property tax itself, as nothing is confirmed) but i think it might be true

TaxiManMartin

Mario007 wrote: »

actually thanks for pointing that out, i completely forgot...the stamp duty is also rumored to be abolished should property tax come in. thats all speculation(as is property tax itself, as nothing is confirmed) but i think it might be true

Its only fair if stamp duty paid is taken into consideration for any future property tax payable.

if you never paid stamp duty (say as a first time buyer) then you should pay property tax. But if you already paid stamp duty on your house then you get that much of discount on any new tax you have to pay.

Victor

I'm wondering do you own much property yourself or are employed in / by the property industry.

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

1. Property tax will be very unfair to anyone on low wages or incomes because it is not linked to peoples income or ability to pay.

How do you know it won't be linked. With the Residential Property Tax, it was only payable by those over a certain household income level.

2. It will have a very bad effect on wage inflation as low paid workers will try to pass any sudden new tax onto their employers. This will make Ireland less competitive.

Wage inflation is unlikely at the moment.

3. A property tax will prove a dis-incentive for people to move from social welfare into low wage jobs. For them it may be better to stay on SW if it includes exemptions from prop tax.

Again you are specualting. You are claiming you are against property tax, but then add add all sorts of ifs and buts.

4. A refusal to pay campaign, will diminish the ammount that any prop tax will bring in. So instead of bringing in 4 billion, a major refusal to pay campaign could reduce this to 2 billion, and make it not worth the political problems it will bring for Fianna Fail.

:rolleyes: And how are you going to balance the budget? Cut back on services to the tune of a 2 billion?

5. Remind the TD's that a property tax will target a demographic group (homeowners) who are most likely to actually vote at the next elections.

Given the high level of home ownership, I'm not sure if this is meaningful. In any case, I think most parties realise that something unpalatable has to be done.

6. Suggest alternatives - local income tax for example that will be easier to introduce and which will be linked to income and therefore fairer.

Income taxes don't work in a recession when people have reduced incomes. Ideally a tax regime should tax everything a little, thereby making evasion and avoidance not worthwhile and if one sector takes a hit, you are minimising that hit. Why do you want to tax work - surely taxing idle capaital is much better.

7. We need to persuade Fianna Fail that being "the party that introduces a property tax" will be electoral suicide not just at the next election, but will prevent them re-gaining power for 2 or 3 terms.

That didn't stop them introducing the Residential Property Tax the last time. And FF know that they are in for a drubbing for the next while, giving them all the more reason to be seen to be doing something responsible, not something populatist.

Popentially, a property tax could be put in place at X% of market value or €Y/m2. You can then have tax credits based on the number of people living there. The building I am in has 14 people in 6 flats - next door has 2 people occupying a slightly larger building. Who is out-living their means and needs to be taxed?