Opposing Property Tax

Joey the lips

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

There should be a property tax. But only for those who havent paid tax (stamp duty) on their property already.

Stamp duty should be abolished first off.
Then Property tax should be payable on all properties bought from then on.

We're seriously thinking about buying a house, and are prepared to pay property tax on it.
But no way in hell are we ever buying if there is to be stamp duty AND property tax. We'll emigrate first.

Double taxation is not the way to go here.

With respect there is flaws to this method of thinking!

Those that payed stap duty should not pay property tax - For how long! Property tax is payable every year how many years should those that payed stamp duty be exempt. 30,000 euro in stamp duty will be worth a lot more in 10 years time. Do we exempt them for 10,20 or 30 years,

What about those who pay 1 million+ for houses are they and there kids forever exempt from property tax?

You see the system is not as simple as that!

I am afraid to say it will be like this! You payed stamp duty fine, you can have a reduced rate of property tax for 10 years. This will be reduced to 5 in a future budget and then to zero. Its pain by stealth I am afraid.

Start packing!

Hookey

Personally I think property tax is far fairer than Stamp Duty, especially if its directly related to paying for local services, as it is in the UK. I didn't like paying my Council Tax when I lived in the UK, but I understood what it was being used for, and could vote out my council if I didn't like it. Stamp Duty on the other hand is just free money for the government to piss away. As for ability to pay, its not difficult to plan for that.

This country desperately needs to widen its tax base and I see some kind of property tax as inevitable. Sorry. (and they'll keep stamp duty anyway).

is_that_so

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

I think the first part of any campaign should be for us as individuals to contact by e-mail or post our local TD's in our own constituencys, as well as Brian Cowen and Michael Martin (I suggest him because he is most likely to be the next FF leader).

Addresses and e-mails of all TD's are in the State Services directory of the phone book. You can also send e-mails to Fianna Fail TD's via their website.

I think the key points to make are :

1. Property tax will be very unfair to anyone on low wages or incomes because it is not linked to peoples income or ability to pay.

2. It will have a very bad effect on wage inflation as low paid workers will try to pass any sudden new tax onto their employers. This will make Ireland less competitive.

3. A property tax will prove a dis-incentive for people to move from social welfare into low wage jobs. For them it may be better to stay on SW if it includes exemptions from prop tax.

4. A refusal to pay campaign, will diminish the ammount that any prop tax will bring in. So instead of bringing in 4 billion, a major refusal to pay campaign could reduce this to 2 billion, and make it not worth the political problems it will bring for Fianna Fail.

5. Remind the TD's that a property tax will target a demographic group (homeowners) who are most likely to actually vote at the next elections.

6. Suggest alternatives - local income tax for example that will be easier to introduce and which will be linked to income and therefore fairer.

7. We need to persuade Fianna Fail that being "the party that introduces a property tax" will be electoral suicide not just at the next election, but will prevent them re-gaining power for 2 or 3 terms.

This reminds me of some of the wild speculation that came about when NAMA was first proposed. No-one knew anything but had plenty to say anyway. All we do know that it is likely to be a PROPOSAL in the Commission on Taxation report. It's also a well-used political ploy - to "leak" the details to gauge reaction. If it is adopted many of the demands above will be worked out in due course. Proposing blackmail of TDs is not the way to do things at all and IMO is a childish and slightly dubious approach to democracy. Linking it to the mess of (over-generous IMO) SW benefits is also a nice populist touch.

Even though there's a queue of dissenters here the muted response to An Bord Snip Nua and the impending Commission on Taxation report does suggest that the population at large has digested this and not found it horribly unacceptable.

What the OP conveniently ignores in all of this is what a property tax would be used for. It is in effect a replacement for the domestic rates that existed until FF bought off the electorate in 1977. As a system it was a bit harsh and not necessarily fairly applied but more stupidly it was never replaced. The net result was that councils become ever more dependent on central government and increased rates on businesses to maintain their services.
A property tax would remove that dependency and leave councils less exposed when times are hard and the public coffers are bare. It might also help them reduce business rates.

I recently had a discussion with someone who opposed the idea of set water charges. As usual "da hard-pressed workez" was invoked. I think, however, all he was doing was articulating the prevailing Irish attitude; we pay taxes reluctantly and will try to dodge them when we can. The sad fact is that we do not have the collective social conscience to pay for the services we think we are entitled to.

FF are going to lose the next election anyway and this might just be the best time for any government to do unpleasant and ultimately sensible things. I for one support the idea of both a property tax and water charges.

djpbarry

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

I'm talking about ordinary working people...

Who are all of these “ordinary working people” who have suddenly emerged from a Dickens novel?

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Its essential that people realsie property tax is going to affect ordinary working class people in places like Finglas and Tallaght, and not just people living in mansions and castles.

Do classism much?

MoominPapa

Personally I think a property tax, once its based on size and numbers of occupation, is used to fund local authorities and credits are granted to recent stamp duty payers, is potentially one of the good things about the mess we're in

gerry28

It is in effect a replacement for the domestic rates that existed until FF bought off the electorate in 1977.

Thats going back over 30 years and they were making bad decisions for all the wrong reasons then and they still are now.

sigh..... if they never did away with the rates we would be in a very different country right now and prob wouldn't have had the crazy boom we ended up with.

nuac

I suggest a property tax has to be seriously considered. Reasons include:

1. Tax base has to be widened and more sources of taxation found to keep the country going. Whichever government is in power over next 3/4 years will have to implement most of the McCarthy report recommendations, otherwise IMF might arrive.

2. Apart from the VAT content on new builds and stamp duty - which not all present owners have had to pay - there has been no property based tax since rates on private houses were abolished in 1977. Vat content was deleted from price when computing stamp duty.

3. Governamce of this country has become too centralised, partly be cause local authorities depend too much on central exchequer funding. Local funding would enable decision making to be devolved down to such authorities.

4. Suggest the tax should be a % of value as settled by valuation office in case of dispute. ( Revenue have a computer data base of most prices paid over recent years ). Allowances and reliefs to be given to those on low income, those who have paid stamp duty on a graduated basis etc.

bijapos

I would agree with a property tax/council tax if the money went local and was used for local amenities. As it now stands it will probably be thrown into the black hole that is our national debt. I support much stronger local goverment enyway but this has to change before we introduce any tax.

Tax should be flat rate as set by the council or government, any valuations based on the estimated valuation of a house will not work. An example of this is VRT, I paid VRT at the end of April, appealed it in June and probably will hear nothing back until November due to the massive backlog. An individual case by case system will cost a fortune to implement and will be subject to fluctuations yearly as prices go up and down. We would be in no better situation than now with the massive losses because of the collapse in VRT and stamp duty.

Unemployed, but would support a flat tax of 400-500€ pa, but only if the services and amenities are provided (which I doubt). But if it is simply to be thrown at our national debt then I will be joining OP.

If it is based on a valuation then a campaign of mass public disobedience in that thousands appeal the tax evaluation and clog up the system would also be very effective.

gerry28

Whatever way the property tax is implemented - fairness will not be one of the main criteria.

I just imported a car from NI, it has 152g/L CO2 - so on emissions alone I would just have to pay €305 per year but because the car was made back in 03 i have to pay €560 per year motor tax - If i was well enough off to afford an 08 or 09 car then i would pay the lesser of the two.

Its so sickening but its typical of our government.

I have no faith that they will consider people of lesser means whan they finally bring this property tax in. It will be decided by people on incomes of between €150,000 and €250,000 p.a - People who just do not understand the impact sums like €800 or so will have on ordinary people.

rivermonkey

Am I the only person in the country concerned about property tax specifically with relation to apartment-dwellers?
We've all been encouraged to buy expensive properties with all the sustainability benefits of apartment-living: high-density, near to public transport, schools and other amenities. Having shared services, low carbon footprint etc..
This new property tax will add €600 to €1000 per year, which I understand will be linked to the value. So well-located appartments will be taxed higher than a semi-d in the outer suburbs?
On top of this, most apartment-dwellers are subject to annual management fees for the upkeep of their building and environs, generally with charges of €1,000 to €2,000 per year.
Anyone have a contrasting view?
I just spoke to a rural greenie, who thinks noone in the countryside should be paying property tax because of low incomes and lack of public services.

Kidchameleon

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Well if it comes to a point where the choice is either being forced to sell and move at an enormous loss, or making a stand and fighting back, then its better to stand and fight.

But I actually think the government will buckle before that. Even this government isn't daft enough to force working taxpayers out of their homes and jobs for the sake of 800 or 900 euros a year.

Oh I think there is no limit to their stupidity...

AntiPropertyTax

I posted some ideas here last week on ways to start a campaign to oppose the threatened property tax. Thanks to all who responded.

I'd suggest the 2nd phase of any campaign should be to try and enlist the support of any organisations and groups which already have an existing structure and membership - for example local residents associations, apartment residents committees, local groups that help the elderly etc.

If possible try and get a debate about the property tax at the next meeting , and hopefully pass a motion saying that the group is opposed to the tax. Then sent letters to your local public representatives to let them know about the opposition to it in their constituencys.

If you are in a small branch of a larger organisation, then try getting the branch to pass a motion asking the headquarters to come out against the property tax.

Design posters if you can, and put them up in the front window of your house. Print a blank petition page, and leave it in places at your workplace where people can sign it. Have a petition page at your front door and when your neighbours are visiting, you can see if they would like to sign it. When you have full sheets send them into local TD's.

The commission on taxation will be issueing its report reccommeding a property tax in about 3 weeks, so those who are opposed to this unfair tax have to be ready to show the government there will be a serious backlash to any tax that does not take account of income or ability to pay.

asdasd

When is the anti-income tax campaign gonna happen?

AntiPropertyTax

asdasd wrote: »

When is the anti-income tax campaign gonna happen?

Well I know none of us really want to pay any extra taxes, but at least with income tax it does have the advantage that if you lose your job you aren't required to pay it - whereas with a property tax if you lose your job you are still liable for it. So the whole problem with property tax is that it is not linked to people's income or ability to pay. It might as well be a tax on the number of hairs on your head.

asdasd

So you are opposed to an unearned wealth tax but in favour of an ( working) income tax.

Seems absurd. I would create a property tax, make it subejct to ability to pay for the bottom 80% - i.e. on benefits you are exempt ( like council tax) - and tax the top 10% a lot.

ardmacha

It might as well be a tax on the number of hairs on your head.

Hardly. If you own a property you are a wealthy person, which is not an unreasonable basis for a tax. There may be some issues with peoples varying incomes, but these should be dealt with.

AntiPropertyTax

ardmacha wrote: »

Hardly. If you own a property you are a wealthy person, which is not an unreasonable basis for a tax. There may be some issues with peoples varying incomes, but these should be dealt with.

I understand where you are coming from, but the big problem is there are many people now, who have seen their circumstances (and their income) changed due to the recession. People have lost jobs, taken big cuts in wages, and hours. There are a lot of people struggling with mortgages, and just about keeping their heads above water. A property tax will seriously impact these people as their incomes are now way out of sync with the technical "wealth" of their home.

ardmacha

Many people are having problems, but most people are not. It is as unwise to tailor a tax to the circumstances of the recession as it was to tailor a tax to the circumstances of the boom. The logical way forward is to reduce the tax initially for people who bought houses in the last 10 years, as they paid a lot of stamp duty. Since these as the people with the largest mortgages this would help the worst affected. But over the next few years the take from the tax would increase as the 10 year window dropped out of the system.

gerry28

Hardly. If you own a property you are a wealthy person,

Not at all. If you own it outright maybe but this is not the case for thousands paying 30yr mortgages on fairly modest wages.

ei.sdraob

gerry28 wrote: »

Not at all. If you own it outright maybe but this is not the case for thousands paying 30yr mortgages on fairly modest wages.

so now its taxpayers fault that some people decided to get themselves up to their eyeballs in debt for the rest of their lifes?

not to mention some mortgage payers get mortgage relief


you know if the property tax doesnt kill these people then interest rates which have only one way to go (thats up btw) will do so

sceptre

Two threads merged.

SeanW

ardmacha wrote: »

Hardly. If you own a property you are a wealthy person, which is not an unreasonable basis for a tax. There may be some issues with peoples varying incomes, but these should be dealt with.

Are you serious? If you "own" a house with a big mortgage you certainly are not wealthy.

Even if you do happen to own your home outright, that simply means that you own the roof over your head. How does that, in and of itself, make someone "wealthy," (particularly if they have low incomes or limited cash reserves?)

asdasd

Even if you do happen to own your home outright, that simply means that you own the roof over your head. How does that, in and of itself, make someone "wealthy," (particularly if they have low incomes or limited cash reserves?)

Oh, stop, you are craking me up.

here are two scnearios

1) Bob owns a million euro house
2) Bob owns a million europ stock portfolio.

Outright I mean.

Both are equally wealthy.

We can tax people on the (unearned) wealth they accrued from doing nothing for the last few years. Or we can tax labour.

If you are in negative equity then it is a rebate.

asdasd

By the way, if you made money or wealth from doing nothing, then any moral society woulcd tax you more than a useful entrepeneur who has created wealth.

Tax Paristites, not producers.

SeanW

asdasd wrote: »

Oh, stop, you are craking me up.

Likewise.

1) Bob owns a million euro house
2) Bob owns a million europ stock portfolio.

Outright I mean.

Both are equally wealthy.

Ok, setting aside the nonsense of those figures, Bob the 1st is living in his million euro house and may have roots in the area etc. Moving would be expensive and disruptive in the extreme. Bob the 2nd has liquid assets and so if anything goes wrong in his life, such as he loses his job/becomes poor or the trough feeders, eh, elected public servants in the Dail impose a property tax on stockholdings, he can easily convert those into cash without substantially harming his quality of life.

We can tax people on the (unearned) wealth they accrued from doing nothing for the last few years. Or we can tax labour.

We can also stop the boomtime spending and get our financial house (pardon the pun) in order.

dvpower

Since the banks actually own much of the property in the state, shouldn't they pay their proportion of the new property tax?

So, take someone who bought a house valued at €500k and have an outstanding mortgage of €400k. Surely they should be taxed on the the €100k that they actually own and the lender should be taxed on the balance?

TaxiManMartin

A homeless guy walks past a guy in a suit sitting in his porch.

The guy in the suit says, oh you must be down on your luck, but i have my own house and all so i'll give you a hand-out if you clear off.

The homeless guy says - do you have a mortgage?

The suit says - I do indeed.

The homeless guy says - I dont. Dont talk down to me, im richer than you.

TaxiManMartin

dvpower wrote: »

Since the banks actually own much of the property in the state, shouldn't they pay their proportion of the new property tax?

So, take someone who bought a house valued at €500k and have an outstanding mortgage of €400k. Surely they should be taxed on the the €100k that they actually own and the lender should be taxed on the balance?

I like your logic.
Funnily enough it makes sense.

asdasd

Bob the 1st is living in his million euro house and may have roots in the area etc.

Roots my proletarian Ass. I dont give a siht If we cared about "roots" we would ban immigration to working class communities. Dublin 4 has been sitting on unearned wealth for far too long, the useless parasites.

If somebody has 1 million in assets, he has one millions in assets. I don't give a Siht how liquid they are. When Bill Gates was the richest person in the world he couldn't sell his stock ( because of the effect on other shareholders), so it was illiquid.

He was still the richest person in the world.

My solution is simple:

1) In negative equity:No tax ( I would prefer a rebate but it might be economically impossible)
2) In positive equity and of the bottom 80-90%: no income no tax, with income: a tax ameliorated by stamp duty you have already payed.
3) Top ten persont - 20% tax on equity in the property, 30% if you have inherited the property, +10% for each generation.


I have fcuk all time for inherited wealth.


First generation wealth, well it makes us all richer.


Happy now,? or are you goint to continue to defend Ireland's inbred, inherited elites.

asdasd

The homeless guy says - I dont. Dont talk down to me, im richer than you.

He's right, and I agree with that.


nevertheless there are people, who during the boom, made wealth from looking at their walls. And we need to screw that class.

Nobody in negative equity gets taxed. Nor minor equity,

Screw Dalkey up the wall.

Someone has to pay, and it might as well be those cnuts.