Opposing Property Tax

ei.sdraob

asdasd wrote: »

Roots my proletarian Ass. I dont give a siht If we cared about "roots" we would ban immigration to working class communities. Dublin 4 has been sitting on unearned wealth for far too long, the useless parasites. The freaks.

If somebody has 1 million in assets, he has one millions in assets. I don't give a Siht how liquid they are. When Bill Gates was the richest person in the world he couldn't sell his stock ( because of the effect on other shareholders), so it was illiquid.

He was still the richest person in the world.

My solution is simple:

1) In negative equity:No tax ( I would prefer a rebate but it might be economically impossible)
2) In positive equity and of the bottom 80-90%: no income no tax, with income - a tax ameliorated by stamp duty you have already payed.
3) Top ten persont - 20% tax on equity in the property, 30% if you have inherited the property, +10% for each generation.


I have fcuk all time for inherited wealth.


First generation wealth, well it makes us all richer.


Happy now,? or are you goint to continue to defend Ireland's inbred, inherited elites.

erm so no tax for people who took the most risk and now ended up in negative equity

yes i see the logic

they took the risk and signed they deserve all they get

asdasd

They were ordimary people who felt they had to buy a house ( I didnt). It is absurd to tax people in negative equity on the dole for no fault of their own.

Thre boom time transfer of wealth was largely to the established elites.

SeanW

asdasd wrote: »

Roots my proletarian Ass. I dont give a siht If we cared about "roots" we would ban immigration to working class communities. Dublin 4 has been sitting on unearned wealth for far too long, the useless parasites.

...

Happy now,? or are you goint to continue to defend Ireland's inbred, inherited elites.

If you think the Property Tax is going to be a tax on Dublin 4 and the "inbred, inherited elites" you're living on cloud cookoo land.

It will hit the middle class the hardest, possibly the poor even harder though there may be some exemptions.

"Unearned wealth" doesn't mean **** if you just bought your house for a place to live and don't care how much its worth.

dvpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

erm so no tax for people who took the most risk and now ended up in negative equity

yes i see the logic

they took the risk and signed they deserve all they get

asdasd wrote: »

Screw Dalkey up the wall.

Someone has to pay, and it might as well be those cnuts.

I think a reform of the Inheritance Tax might solve this dispute.

I've no problem with someone who takes risks (or works hard) and succeeds, benefiting from their success.

But why should their children? If we want a fair society, then we could use the tax system to even out the inequities.

So, like Bill Gates whose his kids will get enough to ensure a good start to life, but not enough to enjoy a free ride, a reform of Inheritance Tax could provide a fairer playing pitch for all.

Dankoozy

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

In particular if there are any workers on low incomes , people who are newly unemployed but who own their own homes, elderly people who have small incomes who are worried about being forced to move by a high property tax.

Also anyone who paid stamp duty in the last 10 years and feels angry the government would consider bringing in another tax , or just anyone who feels a property tax is unfair as it doesn't take account of income or ability to pay.

So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

totally. the idea of paying the government for the privilege of letting you live on your own land is ridiculous. the way it is now if you lose your job, cant afford anything and you own your house you will never lose it unless you run up a huge bill. and thats the way it should be.

it should also be perfectly possible to live off the grid entirely. the minimum required participation in today's modern over regulated rat-race society has been steadily increasing over the past few decades and it should stop really.

nobody should be forced downsize their house so the rich guy who 'deserves' it can buy it instead.

dvpower

Dankoozy wrote: »

nobody should be forced downsize their house so the rich guy who 'deserves' it can buy it instead.

I'm failing to understand this argument.
Everyone accepts that taxes are going to increase, right? So it will be on income or property (or other). Either way, won't the person who is forced to sell their house because of a property tax be forced to sell it through increased income tax?

At least with a property tax, a person can choose to downsize if they want to decrease their tax bill.

Dankoozy

dvpower wrote: »

I'm failing to understand this argument.
Everyone accepts that taxes are going to increase, right? So it will be on income or property (or other). Either way, won't the person who is forced to sell their house because of a property tax be forced to sell it through increased income tax?

At least with a property tax, a person can choose to downsize if they want to decrease their tax bill.

not if he actually owns the house. not if he's on the dole. just because someone owns a massive house doesn't necessarily mean they are wealthy

dvpower

Dankoozy wrote: »

not if he actually owns the house. not if he's on the dole. just because someone owns a massive house doesn't necessarily mean they are wealthy

Taxes aren't supppossed to just apply to the wealthy; taxes that bring in real revenue must target the largest number of people possible.

If someone is on the dole, I presume that they will be exempt. But, I guess this raises a question; if someone on the dole long term is living in an expensive house, why whould the state be subsidising this?

Dankoozy

dvpower wrote: »

Taxes aren't supppossed to just apply to the wealthy; taxes that bring in real revenue must target the largest number of people possible.

If someone is on the dole, I presume that they will be exempt. But, I guess this raises a question; if someone on the dole long term is living in an expensive house, why whould the state be subsidising this?

they wouldn't. he would be getting the same pay out as anyone else and if he can manage the upkeep of his house on that there wouldn't be any problems.

stepbar

I have absolutly no problem with a property tax. A property tax on those who have more than one house. FFS does anyone seriously have the need for more than one house unless they plan to rent same out? A property tax sould have been implemented years and years ago. But because the economy is going down the swanny it seems to be the most logical thing to do. The retardation of some government policies are astounding to say the least.

dvpower

stepbar wrote: »

I have absolutly no problem with a property tax.

stepbar wrote: »

A property tax on those who have more than one house.

I don't think that's what's being proposed.

Dankoozy

stepbar wrote: »

I have absolutly no problem with a property tax. A property tax on those who have more than one house. FFS does anyone seriously have the need for more than one house unless they plan to rent same out? A property tax sould have been implemented years and years ago. But because the economy is going down the swanny it seems to be the most logical thing to do. The retardation of some government policies are astounding to say the least.

a tax on a second house would be alright even though i don't like the idea of it much either.

second houses are what drives up the cost of properties - a lot of them are being left empty for most of the year

but nobody should have to sell the family home that is thanks to the property boom/bust now worth a whole lot more money and the government expects them to pay a tax tailored for the stereotypical owner of a house with that value

Godge

A property tax is probably one of the fairest taxes around and if applied properly can help the economy to get going again.

Very few people on social welfare own their own houses. they wouldn't pay.

The old couple in the big house is always the one thrown out. But is that really a problem. Take a couple, both aged 75 with a house worth 1 million and a property tax of 1%. They would owe 250,000 euro over the next 25 years (assuming they live to 100). I am sure that the banks would be able to come up with an equity release product that would provide them with the money to pay the tax. Ooops, the sons and daughters licking their lips at the prospect of a large inheritance would lose out but who would cry for them? The old couple would live out their lives in dignity in the house they paid for without touching their pensions.

As for getting the economy going, so long as the property tax was based on the zoned value of the land (agriculture excluding farm buildings being exempt) those holding parcels of zoned land but just sitting on it would be hardest hit. Use it or lose it would come into play and developers would be forced to develop or sell. As an example look at Dublin around the Coombe and all the derelict sites.

Dublin1600

I am 100% in favour of a property tax even though I purchased a property in the past 12 months. I propose the following.

Exemption for pensioners who reside in their own property, any subsequent properties would be taxed inline with the following rates.

Owner occupiers pay 0.5% of the value of their property in property taxes.
2nd property, including holiday home 1% in accordance with date purchased.
3rd property 1.5%
4th property 2.0%
5th property 2.5%
6th property 3.0% and so on increasing by 0.5% with subsequent properties. Landlords and buy to let landlords are the main reason we are the current mess.

dvpower

Dublin1600 wrote: »

Exemption for pensioners who reside in their own property, any subsequent properties would be taxed inline with the following rates.

Why exemption for pensioners? Why should pensioners enjoy preferential treatment?

Dankoozy

Dublin1600 wrote: »

I am 100% in favour of a property tax even though I purchased a property in the past 12 months. I propose the following.

Exemption for pensioners who reside in their own property, any subsequent properties would be taxed inline with the following rates.

Owner occupiers pay 0.5% of the value of their property in property taxes.
2nd property, including holiday home 1% in accordance with date purchased.
3rd property 1.5%
4th property 2.0%
5th property 2.5%
6th property 3.0% and so on increasing by 0.5% with subsequent properties. Landlords and buy to let landlords are the main reason we are the current mess.

the problem with that is if the values of properties start going up again a lot of people will find themselves being unable to afford living in their own house, also even .5% of the value of a house is a huge amount to be paying every year to live in your own house for basically nothing in return.

this is different to water, sewage and bin taxes. you can chose not to use as much water and put out as much rubbish but the value of your house depends on how well the property market is doing and how good the people with money are at gaming the system.

Godge wrote: »

A property tax is probably one of the fairest taxes around and if applied properly can help the economy to get going again.

Very few people on social welfare own their own houses. they wouldn't pay.

The old couple in the big house is always the one thrown out. But is that really a problem. Take a couple, both aged 75 with a house worth 1 million and a property tax of 1%. They would owe 250,000 euro over the next 25 years (assuming they live to 100). I am sure that the banks would be able to come up with an equity release product that would provide them with the money to pay the tax. Ooops, the sons and daughters licking their lips at the prospect of a large inheritance would lose out but who would cry for them? The old couple would live out their lives in dignity in the house they paid for without touching their pensions.

As for getting the economy going, so long as the property tax was based on the zoned value of the land (agriculture excluding farm buildings being exempt) those holding parcels of zoned land but just sitting on it would be hardest hit. Use it or lose it would come into play and developers would be forced to develop or sell. As an example look at Dublin around the Coombe and all the derelict sites.

It isn't as fair as you seem to think - this appears to be more about putting the poor people out of the big houses they got in better times and putting them into the smaller houses where they 'belong'. just so some rich guy with an income to match can take over the place instead.

about the equity release thing, that just plays into the hands of the bank. banks have done their fair bit for creating the current mess and now you want to help them by basically giving them a ton of money from old people's houses? right now it might be still possible for the kiddies to take out a mortgage and pay the inheritance tax but the last 25 years of this new property tax on top of this + interest there would be no way for most of them to afford this. equity release is a rip-off, the banks will clean up on this almost mandatory equity release for a lot of people and they deserve the houses even less than the kiddies who would inherit the house

Thoie

Dublin1600 wrote: »

I am 100% in favour of a property tax even though I purchased a property in the past 12 months. I propose the following.

Exemption for pensioners who reside in their own property, any subsequent properties would be taxed inline with the following rates.

Owner occupiers pay 0.5% of the value of their property in property taxes.
2nd property, including holiday home 1% in accordance with date purchased.
3rd property 1.5%
4th property 2.0%
5th property 2.5%
6th property 3.0% and so on increasing by 0.5% with subsequent properties. Landlords and buy to let landlords are the main reason we are the current mess.

That seems fairly reasonable, but how exactly are we determining the value of a property that was bought, say, 20 years ago? Do we use the amount paid for it? The amount the neighbours are selling for? The optimistic amount an estate agent thinks the house might sell for (but will never know, as the owner doesn't intend selling)?

Let's say in that 20 years nothing has been done to the house, a semi-d - it's a shambles. The houses all around have been maintained beautifully, have extensions, swimming pools, jacuzzis in the car port, whatever. How do we value the wreck of a house?

What about people in their late 50s who have paid their mortgage, have now lost their jobs, are unlikely to find new ones, but don't qualify as OAPs yet?

Dankoozy

Thoie wrote: »

That seems fairly reasonable, but how exactly are we determining the value of a property that was bought, say, 20 years ago? Do we use the amount paid for it? The amount the neighbours are selling for? The optimistic amount an estate agent thinks the house might sell for (but will never know, as the owner doesn't intend selling)?

Let's say in that 20 years nothing has been done to the house, a semi-d - it's a shambles. The houses all around have been maintained beautifully, have extensions, swimming pools, jacuzzis in the car port, whatever. How do we value the wreck of a

What about people in their late 50s who have paid their mortgage, have now lost their jobs, are unlikely to find new ones, but don't qualify as OAPs yet?

They'd be ****ed. basically, but a lot of people here seem to think these people owe them a favour because just they live in a big house.

what if i buy a few sticks of dynamite and use it to get rid of that pesky house thats only costing me every year and plant a porta cabin on the land instead? basically i'll end up living in a trailer park, because i will charge other people who had to sell their houses rent to put their trailers on my plot of land so i can pay the remaining tax on the land.

if that doesn't work i'll just become a knacker, nobody, especially the government wants to see more of those lads around, do they?

this property tax looks like it will be a great way of making a sure a lot of poor people move into the crappy houses they are supposed to live in and gives people no incentive to do any maintenance on their house at all unless they plan to sell it.

Dankoozy

mikemac wrote: »

Are you willing to go to jail over this?

You mentioned a refusal to pay, would you go as far as the bin tax campaigners a few years ago?

Just interested to know

you don't have to pay property tax on a prison cell.. so there's a good idea!

newname

And remember they are proposing a tax of €800 on your primary residence and only €200 for a second home - why???

It was the second home brigade that drove the property boom.

Dankoozy

Dankoozy wrote: »

if that doesn't work i'll just become a knacker

Haha!

Now ye're talking. Best way around this tax I've seen so far.

newname

newname wrote: »

And remember they are proposing a tax of €800 on your primary residence and only €200 for a second home - why???

It was the second home brigade that drove the property boom.

Because the people writing and voting (in the Dail) for this tax would, I guess, mostly be the type of person who would own multiple homes - And who's friends and supporters would also own multiple homes.

Dankoozy

newname wrote: »

And remember they are proposing a tax of €800 on your primary residence and only €200 for a second home - why???

It was the second home brigade that drove the property boom.

well a fixed tax would definitely be fairer than anything based on value of the property. even better would be a 'pay as you use' system where you can choose not to drain the local council's resources as much or go off the grid completely if you were stuck for cash

newname

Because the people writing and voting (in the Dail) for this tax would, I guess, mostly be the type of person who would own multiple homes - And who's friends and supporters would also own multiple homes.

Yeah and they want a property owning class and they want the low paid back renting or living in the less affluent areas.

newname

well a fixed tax would definitely be fairer than anything based on value of the property

Also, as mentioneed earlier if its based on house value - that would be a disincentive to improving or adding to your house.

It should be linked to your income and ability to pay.

Dankoozy

newname wrote: »

Also, as mentioneed earlier if its based on house value - that would be a disincentive to improving or adding to your house.

It should be linked to your income and ability to pay.

definitely, nobody should be punished for owning, or even building a big house. especially not in this time when anyone who anything remotely to do with adding value to a house is either bust or almost bust

i know one place is closing down because they can't afford to pay the rates.. but the business in the middle of nowhere and the council does basically **** all for them

basically if you want to see people living in a dump or in trailer parks. roll on the property tax

i suppose it would be good for tourism because it would bring back the good old days of when everyone lived in a derelict 2 bedroom cottage or a tenement building. thats the ireland yanks always wanted to see so if we want them to keep coming to ireland i suppose we all have to start living in those houses again

newname

Its looking likely that the property tax will be in for 2010 and thats prob when the US and EU economies will start to pull out of recession... interest rates will begin to rise then too.

So things are about to get even tougher for the average struggling homeowner next year. People forced to sell houses they've worked hard for for a pittance - terribly depressing suff.

AntiPropertyTax

So for anyone who is opposed to the property tax, the thing to do now is to write / e-mail / phone or call to your TD's , Senators, councillors.

The only way the property tax can be defeated is if the govenrment realises how unpopular and unfair it will be.

TaxiManMartin

Dankoozy wrote: »

if that doesn't work i'll just become a knacker

That is just so on the money.

you are right. Its either move into a trailer park or leave the country.

Most people would probably just leave the country. And take their savings, equity, spending and pensions with them.

What is the point wanting to put down roots in Ireland if you get fuked up the hole for doing it.

ei.sdraob

newname wrote: »

Its looking likely that the property tax will be in for 2010 and thats prob when the US and EU economies will start to pull out of recession... interest rates will begin to rise then too.

So things are about to get even tougher for the average struggling homeowner next year. People forced to sell houses they've worked hard for for a pittance - terribly depressing suff.

oh do i hear the worlds smallest violin playing

"struggling" "forced" "pittance"

no one forced anyone to buy housing that was highly overvalued by all standards, there is renting you know and theres nothing wrong with that if anything it gives you alot of flexibility and rents have fallen and still are on downwards trend

sigh somehow the taught of someone whos sitting on an asset worth a quarter of a million or more is not my idea of "struggling"

what about people in UK? do they struggle with property, water and bin charges?? didnt stop them having a housing bubble too btw or people speculating wildly


everyone who bough a house in the last 6 years is directly involved and responsible for fueling the current crisis, if yee didn't agree to buy overpriced junk this bubble would have never grown into a cancer