Opposing Property Tax

tinkerbell

The government we have right are absolutely the biggest bunch of complete and utter thicks ever. All they want to do is tax, tax, tax. They are going to drive this country into the gutter. Other countries have signs of coming out of their recessions but here in Ireland the govt are so incompetent that it's only going to get worse. Can I ask what is so awful about somebody owning the roof over their head that they have to be taxed on it? What about renters, why should it just be property owners (who live in their own house) be taxed? Taxing property even more is going to worsen the whole property market. What happened to trying to encourage spending? It's going to make people keep money in their pockets even more now.

Maybe if they actually addressed all the wastage in their financial outgoings first, but they are too bloody lazy to actually do some research first. Instead they do the first thing that pops into their head - oh let's tax them some more. Stupid idiots are so clueless, an extra tax doesn't even affect them because they are earning so much in a salary and expenses. Maybe if they were on a similar salary to the likes of Gordon Brown and Barack Obama then they wouldn't be so quick to tax everybody coz shock horror, they'd have to suffer some pain too. Right now they aren't suffering financially one bit.

ei.sdraob

tinkerbell wrote: »

Other countries have signs of coming out of their recessions but here in Ireland the govt are so incompetent that it's only going to get worse.

firstly i agree with you that the government are bunch of muppets who are now on holidays while country is falling apart


but please dont fall for the whole "green shoots" or "recoverah!" spin some countries are painting, see this thread as to why its all a lie > http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055644170

there is no recovery yet, im amazed how economies that are collapsing at a slower rate is a "good thing" and people buy it



secondly you are right that all they do is tax and tax (well it is partly their job) and despite opposition from me to alot of tax raises i do support property tax as it hits the people who are partly responsible for this mess

properly implemented it will hit the chancers and cute whoors hardest, theres a 33Billion worth of loans taken just for BTL, these people should be taxed to hell as they add nothing productive to the economy

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sigh somehow the taught of someone whos sitting on an asset worth a quarter of a million or more is not my idea of "struggling"

what about people in UK? do they struggle with property, water and bin charges?? didnt stop them having a housing bubble too btw or people speculating wildly

some do, but if you are on the dole you don't have to pay nearly as much council tax

a quarter of a million doesn't get you much, not even after the bubble. you wouldn't buy a garden shed for it in some places. its a roof over your head, it will also cost that much for someone to buy another house. would you rather they play into the hands of the landlords people seem to hate so much and sell the house to pay for rent in the new place?

P. Breathnach

tinkerbell wrote: »

The government we have right are absolutely the biggest bunch of complete and utter thicks ever.

Oh, I dunno. They are getting some serious competition from the self-appointed economic experts posting here.

All they want to do is tax, tax, tax.

What about an Bord Snip? What about the taxcutting that they have been doing for years, resulting in Ireland having lower taxes than most European countries?

They are going to drive this country into the gutter. Other countries have signs of coming out of their recessions but here in Ireland the govt are so incompetent that it's only going to get worse. Can I ask what is so awful about somebody owning the roof over their head that they have to be taxed on it? What about renters, why should it just be property owners (who live in their own house) be taxed?

Do you pay much attention to what is actually happening? The first measure proposed was the taxing of properties other than a person's principal residence. That includes rented properties. So it starts with rental properties, not with roof over one's own head?

... Maybe if they actually addressed all the wastage in their financial outgoings first, but they are too bloody lazy to actually do some research first.

What was an Bord Snip about?

Instead they do the first thing that pops into their head - oh let's tax them some more. Stupid idiots are so clueless, an extra tax doesn't even affect them because they are earning so much in a salary and expenses. Maybe if they were on a similar salary to the likes of Gordon Brown and Barack Obama then they wouldn't be so quick to tax everybody coz shock horror, they'd have to suffer some pain too. Right now they aren't suffering financially one bit.

That is a rant, not a reasoned case against property tax.

There are only three ways to deal with a budget deficit: increase taxes, reduce spending, or borrow. Our current borrowing is at a level that cannot be allowed continue (people would simply refuse to lend us more). So we have to use the other options. Spending is being cut, and will be cut more. But to cut spending to a level that would eliminate the deficit is unimaginable -- you would have to eliminate social welfare, close down the health service and the schools, and lay off all the Gardai. So we need to increase revenue, which means more taxes. The only question is how the taxes should be structured.

DJDC

a quarter of a million doesn't get you much, not even after the bubble. you wouldn't buy a garden shed for it in some places

Wrong. 250k will now buy you a 3 bed semi in Lucan and and other lower middle class areas. As for those pleading for those in NE to avoid paying tax, give me a break. The govt will never do this because it would cause worldwide media frenzy.

Thoie

Can we take a few examples from around the country, and work out amongst ourselves what the fairest tax is in each of these cases?

|Type|Size (square m)| Residents|Income|Social Welfare|Mortgage|Value
1| Apartment| 70| 1| 50k|No| Yes| 300k
2| House| 220| 2| None| 20k| No| 800k
3| House| 120| 4| 100k| No| Yes| 450k
4| Apartment| 50| 2| 80k| No| Yes| 400k
5| House| 150| 1| None| Pension 20k| No| 200k
6| House| 180| 6| 35k| No| Yes| 200k

asdasd

All of those houses should be taxed on valuation only ( offset possibluy against mortgages). The social welfare recipient in the 800K house can ex exempt until he gets a job. That said if he had liquid assets he would not get non-means tested benefits.

newname

sigh somehow the taught of someone whos sitting on an asset worth a quarter of a million or more is not my idea of "struggling"

There struggling if they can't sell it.... who is buying now?

I never bought in the last 6 years at inflated prices. I choose to buy a site and build my own house because in 07 I was just not willing to pay the sort of money being asked for very ordinary houses.

Thankfully I don't think I am in negative equity. My mortgage is 170K.
But if they tax on the value of property then I may be in trouble as I don't earn much and may have to sell - you just can't win if your not well off.

ei.sdraob

newname wrote: »

There struggling if they can't sell it.... who is buying now?

I never bought in the last 6 years at inflated prices. I choose to buy a site and build my own house because in 07 I was just not willing to pay the sort of money being asked for very ordinary houses.

Thankfully I don't think I am in negative equity. My mortgage is 170K.
But if they tax on the value of property then I may be in trouble as I don't earn much and may have to sell - you just can't win if your not well off.

incredible! mindboggling!! why does common sense go out the window when it comes to housing

if a house its not selling then lower the damn asking price :rolleyes:

AntiPropertyTax

newname wrote: »

- you just can't win if your not well off.

Don't be disheartened. We can win ! The battle is only begining. This unfair tax can be prevented, if enough low waged workers, elderly people and newly unemployed people come together and oppose it. All we need to do is persuade 3 or 4 Fianna Fail TD's from different constituencys that they stand a better chance of being re-elected if they oppose this tax in the december budget.

newname

incredible! mindboggling!! why does common sense go out the window when it comes to housing

if a house its not selling then lower the damn asking price

Its a very simple wourld you must inhabit ei.sdraob - some people are in negative equity. They could drop the price and sell... but then be left with a 100K debt to the bank.

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

incredible! mindboggling!! why does common sense go out the window when it comes to housing

if a house its not selling then lower the damn asking price :rolleyes:

great, not only do you have to downsize so you can afford the tax but you also have to sell your house at a loss + the cost of moving you will be left with not a whole lot to buy your new downsized house appropriate for your social class

1% or 0.5% every year will really put the squeeze on a lot of people. don't think too many of these lads living in freaking Lucan in a 3 bedroom semi detached house have even 1250 to spare, and that's not because they're "living beyond their means"

before as long as you owned your house you'd never have to worry about not having a roof over your head, you could disconnect from any utilities that send you bills but you'd never have to move. there should really be something in the constitution against this sort of tax, the security of knowing that no matter how bad things get the house won't be sold from under you is worth a lot really.

ei.sdraob

newname wrote: »

Its a very simple wourld you must inhabit ei.sdraob - some people are in negative equity. They could drop the price and sell... but then be left with a 100K debt to the bank.

maybe they should have taught harder before they signed on the dotted line

oh i forgot "house prices can ever only go up" :pac:

seriously i feel sorry for people in NE but they have no one but themselves to blame

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

seriously i feel sorry for people in NE but they have no one but themselves to blame

if you need a place to live you have to buy even if there is an impending recession. you seem to have beef with anyone who simply bought a house in the past few years at an inflated price but if you're stuck then you have to buy. now you also want these people to be dinged a few k every year on a house they can barely afford?

once you buy the house you shouldn't have to worry about what it's worth anymore, if prices go up in your area you should remain blissfully unaffected because you bought the house fair and square and it's yours to keep.

ei.sdraob

Dankoozy wrote: »

if you need a place to live you have to buy even if there is an impending recession. you seem to have beef with anyone who simply bought a house in the past few years at an inflated price but if you're stuck then you have to buy. now you also want these people to be dinged a few k every year on a house they can barely afford?

once you buy the house you shouldn't have to worry about what it's worth anymore, if prices go up in your area you should remain blissfully unaffected because you bought the house fair and square and it's yours to keep.

erm but why does one need to buy especially at peak and knowing that you are overpaying?

there is renting, and theres nothing wrong with that alot of people on continent rent long term, also the poorest get social housing and/or rents paid for via welfare

so that only leaves middle class wanting "own" property at all costs (and now they are moaning that its too costly, well duh!) and we also upper class and wannabees speculating to the tune of 33billion in BTL

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

erm but why does one need to buy especially at peak and knowing that you are overpaying?

there is renting, and theres nothing wrong with that alot of people on continent rent long term, also the poorest get social housing and/or rents paid for via welfare

so that only leaves middle class wanting "own" property at all costs (and now they are moaning that its too costly, well duh!) and we also upper class and wannabees speculating to the tune of 33billion in BTL

there is, landlords are just making money off people who can't afford their own house possibly because of some stupid yearly tax on a one-off purchase. these BTL lads you don't like will stand to benefit a lot from people renting instead of buying

you think having people rent long term and having owners pay property tax will make us more modern and therefore we will be more readily accepted by other european countries who still think we are 'backwards'?

ei.sdraob

Dankoozy wrote: »

there is, landlords are just making money off people who can't afford their own house possibly because of some stupid yearly tax on a one-off purchase. these BTL lads you don't like will stand to benefit a lot from people renting instead of buying

you think having people rent long term and having owners pay property tax will make us more modern and therefore we will be more readily accepted by other european countries who still think we are 'backwards'?

how would they benefit if they have to pay tax on property? the more property they have the more they pay

if anything this will force them to try to sell their "investments" lowering the prices and allowing FTBs to get on property ladder



oh still noone has answered how they cope in UK and US with property taxes but i suppose here in ireland were "different"

asdasd

oh still noone has answered how they cope in UK and US with property taxes but i suppose here in ireland were "different"

To be fair they have been used to it.

there is, landlords are just making money off people who can't afford their own house possibly because of some stupid yearly tax on a one-off purchase.

You find that in England the council tx is passed to renters - that is outside of the rent paid to the landlord the people in the house have to pay the council ( as consumers of services in that area). That then, is a wash in terms of the cost of buying, or renting, the same property.

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

how would they benefit if they have to pay tax on property? the more property they have the more they pay

simple, they integrate the price of the tax into their rent and tell the tenants they would have to pay this if they owned the place

if anything this will force them to try to sell their "investments" lowering the prices and allowing FTBs to get on property ladder

who now suddenly won't be able to pay as much for them anyway
property prices will take a hit, but once you take into account the extra 'rent' you now have to pay the government every year they're not so cheap anymore

oh still noone has answered how they cope in UK and US with property taxes but i suppose here in ireland were "different"

Trailer parks.

is being different such a bad thing? you want this country to be the exact same as every other country? if anything having property tax in the states contributed to the bust. think if none of those people had to pay property tax a fair few could still afford their mortgages

in england you get some sort of an allowance if you cant pay. either way i dont think the house will be sold from under you if you cant afford the council tax, it seems set up in such a way that you will always have enough

asdasd

think if none of those people had to pay property tax a fair few could still afford their mortgages

Revaluation of the property would reduce the tax.

Thoie

ei.sdraob wrote: »

erm but why does one need to buy especially at peak and knowing that you are overpaying?

there is renting, and theres nothing wrong with that alot of people on continent rent long term, also the poorest get social housing and/or rents paid for via welfare

In my case buying made more sense, as my mortgage was about 300 a month cheaper than rents on similar properties when I bought. At the moment, with both interest rates and rents being cheaper, my mortgage is still between 100 and 200 cheaper a month than renting would be. At the time I couldn't afford the extra 300 to rent somewhere "ok" - I'd spent years renting horrible places because they were all I could afford.

My home was never designed to make me money - it's a place where I live in comfort. Ignoring the property tax situation, as long as I keep paying the mortgage, I get to keep living here. In a rented property it doesn't matter how good a tenant you are, the landlord can decide not to renew the lease if he doesn't want to, and that's happened to me a number of times. The first place I rented in Dublin, the landlord decided to move his family in after a few years. The second place, the landlord decided to live there himself after a few years. The third place, the landlord decided to sell the building. All of these were totally legit, with proper notice, but it meant that every few years I had to move regardless. That is why I bought, and I'd imagine a lot of people did the same.

May I ask if you're renting, and if so, how long have you been living in the same place?

newname

To be fair they have been used to it.

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

If it was never removed by FF all them years ago then the country would be a better place for it today.

Instead the bright sparks in government come panicking now and land it on us when were are at our lowest ebb - when thousands are losing their jobs and money etc.

They really owe it to the country to be sensible and sensitive about how they try and make up the shortfall in the national finances.

Húrin

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Hi. I am looking to hear from anyone else out there who would be interested in getting together and organising a campaign group to oppose the threatened property tax.

In particular if there are any workers on low incomes , people who are newly unemployed but who own their own homes, elderly people who have small incomes who are worried about being forced to move by a high property tax.

Also anyone who paid stamp duty in the last 10 years and feels angry the government would consider bringing in another tax , or just anyone who feels a property tax is unfair as it doesn't take account of income or ability to pay.

So if you would like to get involved in starting a campaign group please post here...

I think that a property tax should be introduced because service infrastructure exists because property exists. However in light of those who might be "hit hard" by such a tax, I think that perhaps VAT should be reduced at the same time. That way the rich pay more.

TaxiManMartin

If its just a revenue raising exercise then why not tax renters as well as property owners. Call it a roof over your head tax.

Dankoozy

Húrin wrote: »

I think that a property tax should be introduced because service infrastructure exists because property exists. However in light of those who might be "hit hard" by such a tax, I think that perhaps VAT should be reduced at the same time. That way the rich pay more.

something like that should at least be based on the cost of providing these services and the amount used rather than the value of the house

asdasd

hing like that should at least be based on the cost of providing these services and the amount used rather than the value of the house

Thats a poll tax.

djpbarry

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

This unfair tax can be prevented, if enough low waged workers, elderly people and newly unemployed people come together and oppose it.

How many people in those various brackets (a) own a house and (b) will be unable to pay any proposed property tax?

djpbarry

Dankoozy wrote: »

before as long as you owned your house you'd never have to worry about not having a roof over your head, you could disconnect from any utilities that send you bills but you'd never have to move.

Except water. And of course the council still pays for the upkeep of your neighbourhood.

Dankoozy wrote: »

if you need a place to live you have to buy even if there is an impending recession.

Bollocks.

Dankoozy wrote: »

once you buy the house you shouldn't have to worry about what it's worth anymore, if prices go up in your area you should remain blissfully unaffected because you bought the house fair and square and it's yours to keep.

If people didn’t mortgage themselves up to their eyeballs, then they wouldn’t have to worry too much about their property increasing in value or small increases in interest rates. Of course, if people didn’t take out such ludicrous mortgages, property would not have increased in value so much in the first place.

djpbarry

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

If its just a revenue raising exercise then why not tax renters as well as property owners.

Landlords factor in all costs when settling on a rental value for their property, so any property tax will effectively be passed on to the tenant.

SparkyLarks

Assuming a property tax woudl bring in 4bn a year,( Found that number somewhere)

AND we don\'t bring it in how do those opposed to property tax propose that we make up the 4bn?

Increase income tax
Increase VAT and duties
Borrow it ?

Cut the Pension/social welfare ??

I haven\'t suggesteed reducing public sector wages or other govt spending as I think that needs to be done as well as brining in a property tax.

People say what about people on low incomes/ pensions who own expensive houses, well why not sell them.
If the person had some gold bars( that they were very sentimentally attatched to) would we not suggest that they sell them?

It happens in lots of other countries, you buy a big house to raise your kids and then when there raised you sell up buy a smaller house, maybe closer to town, or in somewhere sunny( that is why all the US retirees move to Florida, so they don\'t have to pay property tax)