Opposing Property Tax

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

Landlords factor in all costs when settling on a rental value for their property, so any property tax will effectively be passed on to the tenant.

But thats the thing theres so much supply lately and downward pressure on rents that passing on this would mean the renter would just move somewhere cheaper

deflation and competition for ya

now only if NAMA didnt exist then there be even more cheap property to buy and rent

win win for everyone

SparkyLarks wrote: »

or in somewhere sunny( that is why all the US retirees move to Florida, so they don\'t have to pay property tax)

but they pay property tax in Florida! its based on square footage

asdasd

but they pay property tax in Florida! its based on square footage

Which clearly benefits old people, right. His point still stands regardless.

ei.sdraob

asdasd wrote: »

Which clearly benefits old people, right. His point still stands regardless.

well Florida is filled with old people, your point?

im sure if property tax is introduced here then people on welfare/ council houses and retirees would be exempt

asdasd

well Florida is filled with old people, your point?

Cripes. The original poster said that old people sell up, in the US, to get smaller houses. He was wrong about there being no property tax in Florida, but right in his general theme.

No, lets connect the dots. Floridas tax is on square footage. Older people dont need so much space.
Not quite the same as no property tax but...

Yes, its hotter too.

asdasd

retirees would be exempt

If retirees are exempt the whole thing is a mockery. I mean really a mockey. Totally and utterly a mockery. Most of the housing wealth is held with the old. There is bog all point taxing the guy in negative equity of E100K if we dont tax the person in positive equity of E1M.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

But thats the thing theres so much supply lately and downward pressure on rents that passing on this would mean the renter would just move somewhere cheaper

But the property tax is going to be applied across the board, making it more expensive for all landlords to own rental properties. It’s an additional cost on every rental.

Besides, while there is an oversupply of properties in the country as a whole, the supply varies from place-to-place, as does demand.

SparkyLarks

SparkyLarks wrote: »

Assuming a property tax woudl bring in 4bn a year,( Found that number somewhere)

AND we don\\\'t bring it in how do those opposed to property tax propose that we make up the 4bn?

Increase income tax
Increase VAT and duties
Borrow it ?

Cut the Pension/social welfare ??

I haven\\\'t suggesteed reducing public sector wages or other govt spending as I think that needs to be done as well as brining in a property tax.

People say what about people on low incomes/ pensions who own expensive houses, well why not sell them.
If the person had some gold bars( that they were very sentimentally attatched to) would we not suggest that they sell them?

It happens in lots of other countries, you buy a big house to raise your kids and then when there raised you sell up buy a smaller house, maybe closer to town, or in somewhere sunny( that is why all the US retirees move to Florida, so they don\\\'t have to pay property tax)

meant to say so they don\'t have to pay as much property tax

Retirees moving out of the big houses also means that those with big families can buy it and not have to move our to the commuter belt

kennethsmyth

Lads, I think the big point to be made is we pay taxes on taxes in Ireland and we are just fed up with the politicians taking the piss.

1. We do need taxes.
2. They need to be fair.
3. They need to be simple (simplify the tax system and kill off difficult ones)
4. The books need to be balanced
(but i think they should span that over a few yrs when there is a recession - and i know about the euro limit on this)

We are in trouble as it is can we not use this to relook at all taxes etc and decide better.

1. No property tax on primary house. (even if it is a mansion - you worked hard or got lucky)
2. Tax should only be earnings, vat was invented by a french bloke in the 1950's and was meant to be a simple way of collecting tax - BUT it was meant to negate all other taxes and they were to be done away with.

HOWEVER most governments decided this was a great way to get more tax and just added it to the list.

County councils are inefficient and have different costs - fair for commercial property as greater income per different areas but not for the average worker.
ie no tax on a person or home should be let come from the co. co. - it should be the same for all.

No to property tax & no to water rates unless the ORIGINAL full cost is tax deductable from paye tax.

You could set a rate now and this first rate can be deducted from paye and as costs rise the deductable amount stays the same - therefore over time the consumer of the water etc.. would pay if you use more but if you use under an amount you dont pay.

Any other suggestions?

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

well Florida is filled with old people, your point?

im sure if property tax is introduced here then people on welfare/ council houses and retirees would be exempt

a lot of them also live in trailer parks and pre-fabs

if anything, Florida should be an example of how not to do property tax. basically a lot of people there never quite made it and end up living in a trailer or "Active Adult" accommodation which is not as interesting as the name sounds its basically a pre-built wooden house the size of a porta-cabin. the property tax would have a lot to do with why people end up living in those places and nobody should be cajoled into moving into one of those places, not after a lifetime of paying tax

ei.sdraob

Dankoozy wrote: »

a lot of them also live in trailer parks and pre-fabs

if anything, Florida should be an example of how not to do property tax. basically a lot of people there never quite made it and end up living in a trailer or "Active Adult" accommodation which is not as interesting as the name sounds its basically a pre-built wooden house the size of a porta-cabin. the property tax would have a lot to do with why people end up living in those places and nobody should be cajoled into moving into one of those places, not after a lifetime of paying tax

you forgot to mention that property there is ALOT cheaper too

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055634245&highlight=florida

would you find anything for that price in ireland?

asdasd

i dont think people are getting the argument. If someone has a million euro house, primary residence or not, he is rich. If his income is "poor" he can sell this house and generate income with the proceeeds. 1 Million could easily get 50K a year.

So entrenched wealth is merely income forgone. The guy with the million pound house is not going to be poor, if the 1-2% tax is too much, sell on and use the rest of the money wisely./

Dankoozy

asdasd wrote: »

i dont think people are getting the argument. If someone has a million euro house, primary residence or not, he is rich. If his income is "poor" he can sell this house and generate income with the proceeeds. 1 Million could easily get 50K a year.

So entrenched wealth is merely income forgone. The guy with the million pound house is not going to be poor, if the 1-2% tax is too much, sell on and use the rest of the money wisely./

Why should he have to? This means that only people with 10-20k a year to spare can afford to keep living in their million euro house. I'd rather see some of that money used to maintain the houses. Nobody should have to pay that much every year to continue living in the house they already own.

asdasd

Nobody should have to pay that much every year to continue living in the house they already own.

The idea is they leave. Reducing absurdly high property prices at the top end, and yet allowing the seller to evade the property tax (since they left), and monetize their assets. Win win.

Someone else will come in, be able to afford the house and tax at 600-800K ( since the tax is going to reduce it's value), and release his cheaper property and so on.

Win.

And we have to tax actual working wages less.

Win.

ei.sdraob

Dankoozy wrote: »

Why should he have to?

simple answer

property masturbation and speculation has got this country into this mess

hence it should be taxed, mind you if these taxes were introduce many years ago we would have a much smaller bubble

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

simple answer

property masturbation and speculation has got this country into this mess

hence it should be taxed, mind you if these taxes were introduce many years ago we would have a much smaller bubble

Then only tax second homes you will stop people buying up houses and leaving them empty while at the same time not making anyone move because they cant afford the tax

Besides this tax didnt do much to stop the bubble anywhere else

ei.sdraob

Dankoozy wrote: »

Then only tax second homes you will stop people buying up houses and leaving them empty while at the same time not making anyone move because they cant afford the tax

Besides this tax didnt do much to stop the bubble anywhere else

no they had a bubble in UK (3x) and US (2x) but it was much less severe compared to Ireland (5x), see nice graphs here and do the maths

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61359173&postcount=14

actually second+ home taxation is fine by me as it would hit the speculators hardest!

but as someone pointed out before

then people would put second+ houses in other family members names or even setup small companies and shift the asset to it

i dont know how it can be enforceable (maybe one has to declare all property assets the own to revenue? and it can go against tax credits or something, i dunno), hence it be simpler just to tax all property

/

asdasd

Then only tax second homes you will stop people buying up houses and leaving them empty while at the same time not making anyone move because they cant afford the tax

I am trying to tax wealth here. Why would a second home bother me if it were not worth as much as the first one.

Case in point. My sister bought an appartment in the outskirts of Dublin, and moved in with her BF ( now husband). Both small places out in the Western suburbs. She joined his mortgage and now is under water on both. They should pay some tax, maybe.

But why oh why would someone is Dalkey be exempt, if his one house is worth more than their two and he is in the black, and they in the red with negative equity.

Tax the bleeding rich.

Another good thing about property related taxes is it causes the inequities of a boom driven by large increases in population to be ironed out somewhat.

asdasd

then people would put second+ houses in other family members names or even setup small companies and shift the asset to it

Yeah, exactly what the UK politicns were doing.

kennethsmyth

Quit kicking the rich, we live in a capitalist country where you can create wealth some of us by working hard.

If i work like a dog and get a million pound house well good luck to me, stop with the usual irish crap of pulling people down who have worked hard or got lucky.

All i want is a fair tax system and not to be taxed twice on something - i bought house with already taxed money.

I own a 3 bed semi in commuter belt (sorry bank owns) and i've worked hard to keep it, if i ever get rich (unlikely) i should still be treated the same. Tax earnings and income not "primary property" if i make investment properties then tax me.

By the way I'm Irish not rich but I'd like to think in my naivity that I could do it with blood sweat and tears. So let the rich be rich create jobs, spend money and live in luxury so long as they pay earnings taxes etc... BUT DO NOT TAX THE MAIN RESIDENCE EVEN IF ITS THE WHITEHOUSE! they may or may not deserve it but I'm fed up with Irelands drag down mentality.

asdasd

If i work like a dog and get a million pound house well good luck to me, stop with the usual irish crap of pulling people down who have worked hard or got lucky.

I am not asking that people who worked hard not get to keep their money. Most of the money made in property was not earned. The walls made money for a lucky generation If they have earned enough to buy the house they can pay the tax. I keep pointing that out. If they are income rich, they can keep the house.

It is people who cant affford to keep the house who lose out. Queue the violins.

If want to live in a rich area, good for you, the reduction in the price of houses caused by the introduction of a property tax targetted at the idle unearned rich will help you do that.

ei.sdraob

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Quit kicking the rich, we live in a capitalist country where you can create wealth some of us by working hard.

If i work like a dog and get a million pound house well good luck to me, stop with the usual irish crap of pulling people down who have worked hard or got lucky.

All i want is a fair tax system and not to be taxed twice on something - i bought house with already taxed money.

I own a 3 bed semi in commuter belt (sorry bank owns) and i've worked hard to keep it, if i ever get rich (unlikely) i should still be treated the same. Tax earnings and income not "primary property" if i make investment properties then tax me.

By the way I'm Irish not rich but I'd like to think in my naivity that I could do it with blood sweat and tears. So let the rich be rich create jobs, spend money and live in luxury so long as they pay earnings taxes etc... BUT DO NOT TAX THE MAIN RESIDENCE EVEN IF ITS THE WHITEHOUSE! they may or may not deserve it but I'm fed up with Irelands drag down mentality.

I agree with you but

theres a difference between a hardworking man like yourself

and a BTL chancer who is making profit by pocketing the difference between the low interest rates and high rental prices he charges

in the process making money by creating no wealth at all unlike the hardworking man who produces widgets at the factory for export or whatever


now that is wrong! and im fairly antitax when it comes to economics but i dont know how we allowed 33billion in BTL loans to be handed out in this country! hence why im actually supporting property taxes, i do see the point that improperly implemented it would hurt the poorest (that can be said of any form taxation)

33billion could have been invested in the country to make us energy independent or some other investment that actually creates wealth

property speculation is a cancer and creates no wealth!

kennethsmyth

Revenue already knows second and third homes as capital gains tax applies to them when sold and not principal private residence, so saying how could they tax only these as it would be too difficult to identify is void.

kennethsmyth

Errr..... energy independent? How about we actually keep some of the gas in corrib instead of letting multinationals drilling for free. We might actually make some money then. Ohh and while we're at it build our own bloody bridges so tolls go back to the coffers instead of NTR. Its not rocket science but its a good job Bertie never said we were going to the moon. (we'd of run out of fuel):rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Revenue already knows second and third homes as capital gains tax applies to them when sold and not principal private residence, so saying how could they tax only these as it would be too difficult to identify is void.

come one we live in a country where a bank director says things like

"them millions happen to rest in my account"

do you really think people wont "forget" to tick that box on their annual return?

most of the time revenue is non the wiser to any sort of tax evasion unless they start digging deep within that persons file after being tipped off or being netted up by algorithms looking for inconsistencies

yes theres capital gains tax, but transfering that house to your child to pay less tax would make more sense in the long term for some

ei.sdraob

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Errr..... energy independent? How about we actually keep some of the gas in corrib instead of letting multinationals drilling for free. We might actually make some money then. Ohh and while we're at it build our own bloody bridges so tolls go back to the coffers instead of NTR. Its not rocket science but its a good job Bertie never said we were going to the moon. (we'd of run out of fuel):rolleyes:

why not? i agree with both points tho its unrelated to property taxes

okioffice84

I've already paid property tax, it's called stamp duty

TaxiManMartin

asdasd wrote: »

The idea is they leave. Reducing absurdly high property prices at the top end, and yet allowing the seller to evade the property tax (since they left), and monetize their assets. Win win.

Someone else will come in, be able to afford the house and tax at 600-800K ( since the tax is going to reduce it's value), and release his cheaper property and so on.

Win.

And we have to tax actual working wages less.

Win.

They'll probably leave the country and take their million with them.

TaxiManMartin

okioffice84 wrote: »

I've already paid property tax, it's called stamp duty

We're thinking of buying, to settle down with the kids and all, but not a chance unless either stamp duty is abolished or this property tax guff is ironed out.

If it comes to paying both i think we'll just emigrate.

ei.sdraob

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

We're thinking of buying, to settle down with the kids and all, but not a chance unless either stamp duty is abolished or this property tax guff is ironed out.

If it comes to paying both i think we'll just emigrate.

emigrate where? most developed countries have property taxes and more

Dankoozy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

emigrate where? most developed countries have property taxes and more

somewhere remote and isolated where they don't care about this sort of stuff

maybe a country that's still on the way up although in 20 years time the government will come along and say "look, we'll be so much more modern if we make people pay to keep their own houses every year - a great way to get all those backwards tribesmen off their arses and work in the city" and they will bring in a property tax in order to 'swim with the big fish', much like ireland has been doing ever since they joined the EU, enthusiastically embracing every new regulation whether it's good or bad without thought and assuming because the big lads have it they must too.