Opposing Property Tax

asdasd

So all you people are emigrating to Africa? Most countries have property or stamp duty, or both.

The whole stamp duty mis-understaning always amuses me. The cost is actual nothing, it is really a tax on sales - the cost is to the seller, or developer.

I know that is counter intuitive, but work it out.

Dankoozy

asdasd wrote: »

So all you people are emigrating to Africa? Most countries have property or stamp duty, or both.

The whole stamp duty mis-understaning always amuses me. The cost is actual nothing, it is really a tax on sales - the cost is to the seller, or developer.

I know that is counter intuitive, but work it out.

i don't mind paying a one-off tax for a one-off purchase but i have a big problem with paying for it every year, even more so if its dependent on 'value'

emigrating to africa wouldn't be bad. there are some very nice spots in africa and you'd get by with a bit of land if you actually tried to fit in with the culture and the community there and knew a thing or two about living without the modern facilities we expect the government to provide for us over here

astrofool

asdasd wrote: »

So all you people are emigrating to Africa? Most countries have property or stamp duty, or both.

The whole stamp duty mis-understaning always amuses me. The cost is actual nothing, it is really a tax on sales - the cost is to the seller, or developer.

I know that is counter intuitive, but work it out.

It's a significant cost because some people don't have to pay it (FTB's), so it adds 6-8% on top of the trade up cost for your second home.

It also discourages labour mobility (more expensive to move) and virtually kills the small developer market of doing up run down houses and selling them on.

It also distorts the market between new houses (no SD on < 125sqm) and second hand houses.

gurramok

Everyone keeps saying that FF will lose the next election because of this. Did you know the 2nd largest party(FG) are most unlikely to oppose a property tax?(they are on the fence offically now)

Its rather naive to think a mostly right wing party like FG will roll back a property tax. I just have this feeling down the line that when it comes to the crunch like a Tallaght strategy, most of the political establishment will embrace a range of taxes to save the country as well as cutbacks of course.

Anyway, tax the zoned and unused land. That will make it productive and stop any speculating. It will stop dereliction of sites also.

And as highlighted, why should Ireland be the only country in the EU without a form of property tax? It works for other countries so they are doing something there right.

SparkyLarks

Most property taxes in the world go to the local government. i.e State county, or city

It is then used( in theroy) to fund things in that locality, ( in the state s it funds Schools police etc) If that is seend in Ireland to be the case then I think that would help the perception of it

The govt needs to raise X amount in tax every year, and the taxpayer has to pay it all, If we don\'t pay a property tax what will we pay instead?

any Ideas?

RedPlanet

SparkyLarks wrote: »

Most property taxes in the world go to the local government. i.e State county, or city

It is then used( in theroy) to fund things in that locality, ( in the state s it funds Schools police etc) If that is seend in Ireland to be the case then I think that would help the perception of it

The govt needs to raise X amount in tax every year, and the taxpayer has to pay it all, If we don\'t pay a property tax what will we pay instead?

any Ideas?

I would say that is the property tax system in the USA, but "in the world"?
No.

And i would also point out that that system creates huge inequality.
Ghetto areas remain poor as property value is low, exclusive areas remain rich as property value is high.
Apply that same system to road infastructure and you can just imagine the patchwork of road quality you'd likely find as you travel from one side of a city or state to the other.

ei.sdraob

do the people who oppose property tax agree that


Property Tax helps keep the lid on crazy property prices


i already provided the evidence for the thesis

seems alot of vested interests would rather let the country go down the drain than admit they they are the bigger fool for buying into the whole celtic tiger housing bubble orgy (and now possibly being in NE)

kennethsmyth

"The govt needs to raise X amount in tax every year, and the taxpayer has to pay it all, If we don\'t pay a property tax what will we pay instead?"

Ok I have already said the "books need to be balanced", but that does not mean it all has to come from tax.

Lets start with costs first, every private business in a recession would not dare raise prices why should taxes be raised then. A private business would look to its costs and reduce them while trying to keep its customers so that when (if) the recession ends they could be the first to turn to profit again. Its the same with tax, you tax more you get reduced returns as people will either not work as its not benificial - welfare state - or will find ways of keeping the money under the radar ( do you really think there is no cash work going on for construction/electrical/plumbing at the moment).

The government has to reduce public sector costs by 25% they are grossly overweight and i dont mean front line services I mean general admin, revenue (he he), once this happens and all costs have been checked and identified then look to the public for taxes until then get lost.

PS - start with TD's and minister's - pay in line with our country vs others not just a figure from thin air.

RedPlanet

kennethsmyth wrote: »

"
Lets start with costs first, every private business in a recession would not dare raise prices why should taxes be raised then.

Because their revenues are falling (the government isn't getting enough money from us in taxes). I agree with the rest of your post.
I just wonder, when is someone going to propose outsourcing the civil service?

kennethsmyth

By the way, with interest relief gone after 7 yrs even for a small mortgage thats 100eur a month or 1200eur a year - ie they have already taken a property tax (i know its not quiet a tax but it has same affect on those who pay mortgages)

Look to costs first then people may be more ameniable to taxes.

While we are at it kill the levy and apply it properly within the tax system, its wrong and affects indiscriminately.

Ohh and the health levy on health insurance (to bail out vhi) is also wrong - many of my friends cannot now afford it and have dropped it so are on national health now - eehhhh... how did that reduce costs?

ei.sdraob

kennethsmyth wrote: »

By the way, with interest relief gone after 7 yrs even for a small mortgage thats 100eur a month or 1200eur a year - ie they have already taken a property tax (i know its not quiet a tax but it has same affect on those who pay mortgages)

Look to costs first then people may be more ameniable to taxes.

While we are at it kill the levy and apply it properly within the tax system, its wrong and affects indiscriminately.

Ohh and the health levy on health insurance (to bail out vhi) is also wrong - many of my friends cannot now afford it and have dropped it so are on national health now - eehhhh... how did that reduce costs?

so getting less welfare some how equates to raising taxes

woa the mind boggles

Boggle

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do the people who oppose property tax agree that


Property Tax helps keep the lid on crazy property prices


i already provided the evidence for the thesis

seems alot of vested interests would rather let the country go down the drain than admit they they are the bigger fool for buying into the whole celtic tiger housing bubble orgy (and now possibly being in NE)

A property tax on second homes only would do so just as well without driving people out of the homes that they worked to pay for just because they get old, lose their jobs or have kids.
And I never bought into the property mania because any idiot could see we were in a bubble.

Basically, I dont see why we dont just impose a single tax which proportional to income as stealth tax's like bin charges, tv license, property tax, car "tax", etc ALWAYS disproportionately affect the lower paid, leaving the higher paid to bask in their relatively low tax economy.
(To illustrate: €200 is a much higher percentage of 18k than 50k )

kennethsmyth

Boggle wrote: »

A property tax on second homes only would do so just as well without driving people out of the homes that they worked to pay for just because they get old, lose their jobs or have kids.
And I never bought into the property mania because any idiot could see we were in a bubble.

Basically, I dont see why we dont just impose a single tax which proportional to income as stealth tax's like bin charges, tv license, property tax, car "tax", etc ALWAYS disproportionately affect the lower paid, leaving the higher paid to bask in their relatively low tax economy.
(To illustrate: €200 is a much higher percentage of 18k than 50k )

I absolutely agree a higher single tax and no other - simplfy the tax system.

kennethsmyth

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so getting less welfare some how equates to raising taxes

woa the mind boggles

Where in my post did i mention getting less welfare somehow equates to raising taxes?

I talked about mortgage interest relief which is a tax relief not a welfare payment.

What we should be doing is including stud farms and artists into the equation to pay taxes.

My main point and to refer back to what this post is about is - property tax.

WE SHOULD HAVE NO NEW TAXES UNTIL ALL COSTS ARE LOOKED AT (including wefare if that is the case - its a last resort not a living)

Asking the accountants in the civil service to reduce costs though is like asking turkeys to vote for christmas.

An independant look at costs is needed - bord snip targeted the totally wrong sections - even a monkey could see that some of their ideas are hitting the wrong people.

P. Breathnach

kennethsmyth wrote: »

... WE SHOULD HAVE NO NEW TAXES UNTIL ALL COSTS ARE LOOKED AT (including wefare if that is the case - its a last resort not a living)

I don't know why you are shouting that. It's not a principle, nor is it logical, nor is it sufficient to deal with our exchequer problems.

... An independant look at costs is needed

What an original idea. You mean something like An Bord Snip Nua?

- bord snip targeted the totally wrong sections - even a monkey could see that some of their ideas are hitting the wrong people.

Well, why not behave like a monkey, and tell us what they should have done?

kennethsmyth

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't know why you are shouting that. It's not a principle, nor is it logical, nor is it sufficient to deal with our exchequer problems.


Appologies for shouting.
It is a principle that all businesses in a recession do not increase their charges instead they reduce their costs.
It is quite logical to look at costs first before increasing taxes.
It may not be fully sufficient to deal with our exchequer problems but as i stated in a previous post if we do this first and really do reduce costs people will be more ameniable to extra taxes.


What an original idea. You mean something like An Bord Snip Nua?

Thats a direct snipe at me just as i could say back to you read the line again, bord snip was mentioned.

Well, why not behave like a monkey, and tell us what they should have done?

Read the previous posts and you'll see i have put forward some ideas.

MrPatMustard

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

Thanks.

I think the first phase of any campaign would be writing / e-mailing / phoning TD's ,Senators, councillors, and any other public representatives to voice our opposition, and explain why this tax would be so un-fair.

The second phase would be publicising the effects and threat that a property tax would pose to specific groups : the lower waged, the elderly , the newly unemployed. Making leaflets and posters to put up in locations where these people will see them, writing to local newspapers, etc. Its essential that people realsie property tax is going to affect ordinary working class people in places like Finglas and Tallaght, and not just people living in mansions and castles.

The third phase would be trying to contact and link up with organisations who have large memberships who could be affected by this new tax, and ask for their membership to join in the opposition campaign. For example charitys that help the elderly.

Phase four would be in the weeks leading up to the budget, to hold local meetings in streets, estates, apartment blocks, etc to get petitions and organise local demonstrations.

Phase five would be a refusal to pay campaign, but I believe when people out there see how much hardship and problems a property tax would cause for them and their families, they will make the government think again and opt instead for a fairer option like local income tax.

Just vote NO on 2nd October, that'll do the trick!

ei.sdraob

MrPatMustard wrote: »

Just vote NO on 2nd October, that'll do the trick!

ffs what do property taxes have to do with Lisbon

no wonder this country is so fuucked its full of muppets :mad:

is_that_so

kennethsmyth wrote: »

By the way, with interest relief gone after 7 yrs even for a small mortgage thats 100eur a month or 1200eur a year - ie they have already taken a property tax (i know its not quiet a tax but it has same affect on those who pay mortgages)

Look to costs first then people may be more ameniable to taxes.

While we are at it kill the levy and apply it properly within the tax system, its wrong and affects indiscriminately.

Ohh and the health levy on health insurance (to bail out vhi) is also wrong - many of my friends cannot now afford it and have dropped it so are on national health now - eehhhh... how did that reduce costs?

No that is just a credit that they extended to anyone who has a mortgage. Much of the rest of what's here is a bit like the rest of us - off the top of the head onto the back of the envelope economics. The main reason for the levies this year is because tax changes would have resulted in the reissuing of tax certs and all sorts of accounting nightmares.
The thread on the Nordic option here might show you how amenable we are to taxes.
So far no-one has offered a useful income alternative. Once the "costs" and "efficiencies" are sorted out there will be far less scope to extract more from them. If the property bubble has taught us anything, depending on volatile income sources is a recipe for disaster. Properly and fairly administered a property tax does quite the opposite and is only affected by a reduction in the housing stock.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

Just vote NO on 2nd October, that'll do the trick!

Be nice to see where the logic of this one goes. Do what exactly?

Is your point?

a) Use Lisbon as an excuse/protest vote
b) Vote against it anyway cos they're all a shower of ...
c) You're against Lisbon and this is just a excuse for you to publicise that and say NO to Lisbon.

Of the three c) at least has the support of your own reasoning.

kennethsmyth

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ffs what do property taxes have to do with Lisbon

no wonder this country is so fuucked its full of muppets :mad:

In fairness you're right on this, Lisbon is a separate issue and should be treated as such. For the record I only have a problem with Lisbon in that it gives our government more power to make more decisions in future without having to ask us in a referendum.

ei.sdraob

kennethsmyth wrote: »

In fairness you're right on this, Lisbon is a separate issue and should be treated as such. For the record I only have a problem with Lisbon in that it gives our government more power to make more decisions in future without having to ask us in a referendum.

can discussions on Lisbon be kept to the European politics forum?


this guy @MrPatMustard jumping into the middle of the thread with a completely unrelated issue is highly annoying

and i am having a hard time staying polite in face of such ignorant muppetry nonsense

:cool:

oscarBravo

kennethsmyth wrote: »

For the record I only have a problem with Lisbon in that it gives our government more power to make more decisions in future without having to ask us in a referendum.

No, it doesn't.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can discussions on Lisbon be kept to the European politics forum?

That would be nice.

and i am having a hard time staying polite in face of such ignorant muppetry nonsense

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

MrPatMustard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ffs what do property taxes have to do with Lisbon

no wonder this country is so fuucked its full of muppets :mad:

If someone raises their left hand to give you a punch in the head, you don't necessarily just look at their left hand/arm and deal with that, do you???. No you give them a hard full-force boot in the chops where you know it will hurt them! Then you don't have to worry about their left hand, their right hand or any other part of them... Same logic applies here!

MrPatMustard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can discussions on Lisbon be kept to the European politics forum?


this guy @MrPatMustard jumping into the middle of the thread with a completely unrelated issue is highly annoying

and i am having a hard time staying polite in face of such ignorant muppetry nonsense

:cool:

It's a legitimate AND LEGAL form of protest against a property tax, one that I intend to use in full. That's how I'll be protesting against this property tax, because I know it will hit this government where it hurts.

oscarBravo

MrPatMustard wrote: »

If someone raises their left hand to give you a punch in the head, you don't necessarily just look at their left hand/arm and deal with that, do you???. No you give them a hard full-force boot in the chops where you know it will hurt them! Then you don't have to worry about their left hand, their right hand or any other part of them... Same logic applies here!

That's not logic, it's waffle. If you want to discuss Lisbon, do so on the EU forum. If you want to discuss property tax, discuss property tax.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

It's a legitimate AND LEGAL form of protest against a property tax, one that I intend to use in full. That's how I'll be protesting against this property tax, because I know it will hit this government where it hurts.

It's a stupid and pointless form of protest. It's like throwing a brick through the window of your local pub because you don't like McDonalds but can't be bothered driving to one.

is_that_so

MrPatMustard wrote: »

It's a legitimate AND LEGAL form of protest against a property tax, one that I intend to use in full. That's how I'll be protesting against this property tax, because I know it will hit this government where it hurts.

Indeed. We should all be protesting against as yet unpublished proposals that have not even come up for cabinet discussion. Much as I respect your claim to legitimate protest you are showing utter disdain toward a document that goes beyond politics and defines us as a people. A document I have no doubt you'd invoke when it suited you.

IMO it is deeply disappointing that some voters seem incapable of addressing serious issues in order to voice their own petulance. I'd like to think we are bigger than that and actually comprehend what a referendum vote means.

ei.sdraob

is_that_so wrote: »

Indeed. We should all be protesting against as yet unpublished proposals that have not even come up for cabinet discussion. Much as I respect your claim to legitimate protest you are showing utter disdain toward a document that goes beyond politics and defines us as a people. A document I have no doubt you'd invoke when it suited you.

IMO it is deeply disappointing that some voters seem incapable of addressing serious issues in order to voice their own petulance. I'd like to think we are bigger than that and actually comprehend what a referendum vote means.

as i said one wonders how things have gotten so bad

this guy is a prime example of how lack of knowledge of political affairs is dragging and dragged this country into a hole

bleh why am i even paying attention to an obvious ....

MrPatMustard

is_that_so wrote: »

Indeed. We should all be protesting against as yet unpublished proposals that have not even come up for cabinet discussion. Much as I respect your claim to legitimate protest you are showing utter disdain toward a document that goes beyond politics and defines us as a people. A document I have no doubt you'd invoke when it suited you.

IMO it is deeply disappointing that some voters seem incapable of addressing serious issues in order to voice their own petulance. I'd like to think we are bigger than that and actually comprehend what a referendum vote means.

I've already paid a huge amount of tax on my property, and I don't intend on paying any more. Now it doesn't matter to me what the issue is we are asked to vote on, whether it be Lisbon, or any other matter. If I'm standing looking at my ballot paper and this current government is telling me to vote in X a fashion, I'm going to vote the exact opposite. And I'm going to continue doing so until this government is gone. If more of us had the same attitude, we wouldn't be living in a country that is now in financial tatters...

There is no other way I can see it, I hear John O' Donoghue has been p*ssing our money all over the world recently as if it is going out of fashion, but his party want me to pay a property tax because they need more money?!?!?!?

The issue is not Lisbon and I don't want to get into that debate, the issue is that I don't trust Fianna Fail, I'm not paying a property tax no matter what, I've already paid a huge amount of tax on my property, so until such a time as I can trust the people who are running the country again, I'm doing the opposite of what they suggest I should do in terms of voting, and as for the consequences, I couldn't give a f*ck.

dvpower

MrPatMustard wrote: »

The issue is not Lisbon and I don't want to get into that debate, the issue is that I don't trust Fianna Fail, I'm not paying a property tax no matter what, I've already paid a huge amount of tax on my property, so until such a time as I can trust the people who are running the country again, I'm doing the opposite of what they suggest I should do in terms of voting, and as for the consequences, I couldn't give a f*ck.

I don't quite get the point of this. If the property tax is sucessfully opposed, we will still need to raise more taxes. So, the government will simply add a few points to the income tax rate or get it from some other tax. Either way, taxes are on the way up.

What do you intend to do when your property tax bill drops through your letter box? Do you really want to be at the sharp end of the Revenue?

oscarBravo

MrPatMustard wrote: »

...as for the consequences, I couldn't give a f*ck.

Yup. If the brick you throw through your pub window kills a small child, who cares? At least you've told McDonalds what you think of them.

People who don't give a f*ck about the consequences of their actions should be deeply, deeply ashamed of themselves.