Opposing Property Tax

djpbarry

MrPatMustard wrote: »

Now it doesn't matter to me what the issue is we are asked to vote on, whether it be Lisbon, or any other matter. If I'm standing looking at my ballot paper and this current government is telling me to vote in X a fashion, I'm going to vote the exact opposite. And I'm going to continue doing so until this government is gone. If more of us had the same attitude, we wouldn't be living in a country that is now in financial tatters...

Actually, I’d say it’s precisely that sort of irresponsible behaviour on the part of the electorate that has contributed to the economic mess we are now in.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

…until such a time as I can trust the people who are running the country again, I'm doing the opposite of what they suggest I should do in terms of voting, and as for the consequences, I couldn't give a f*ck.

Hmmm. Methinks oscarBravo’s sig needs updating.

MrPatMustard

dvpower wrote: »

I don't quite get the point of this. If the property tax is sucessfully opposed, we will still need to raise more taxes. So, the government will simply add a few points to the income tax rate or get it from some other tax. Either way, taxes are on the way up.

What do you intend to do when your property tax bill drops through your letter box? Do you really want to be at the sharp end of the Revenue?

I'm all for a property tax in the context of WORKING AND EFFICIENT public services. I'm not for throwing good money after bad, so when the same people who brought us benchmarking and gave us the best paid politicians and hospital consultants on earth, tell me they need to introduce a property tax because they need more money to run the place, for some reason, I'm not inclined to listen to them!

What I intend to do is not pay it, and if we all did the same, there would be no property tax! You could give this government every cent that you earn for the rest of your natural life and they would still hand you back a dysfunctional health service, a basketcase economy and a country full of portacabin school classrooms...

Think about this for just a second. They had 10-15 years of a boom and they couldn't sort out relatively simple enough problems, when they had the cash to do it.

dvpower

MrPatMustard wrote: »

I've already paid a huge amount of tax on my property, and I don't intend on paying any more.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

I'm not paying a property tax no matter what

MrPatMustard wrote: »

I'm all for a property tax in the context of WORKING AND EFFICIENT public services.

Make up your mind!

Are you against a property tax as a concept or just against any more tax? You seems to have a very disjointed logic. You may or may not be against it, but your going to demonsrate your disfavour by voting against an EU treaty.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

What I intend to do is not pay it, and if we all did the same, there would be no property tax!

Thats one big if; here's how I predict this one will play out.
You get a property tax bill and refuse to pay it; Revenue impose fines and interest payments; you fold.

oscarBravo

MrPatMustard wrote: »

What I intend to do is not pay it...

That's a logical form of protest, especially if you're serious about it and prepared to face the consequences.

Voting against an EU treaty as a form of protest is just plain stupid.

MrPatMustard

dvpower wrote: »

Make up your mind!

Are you against a property tax as a concept or just against any more tax? You seems to have a very disjointed logic. You may or may not be against it, but your going to demonsrate your disfavour by voting against an EU treaty.

Thats one big if; here's how I predict this one will play out.
You get a property tax bill and refuse to pay it; Revenue impose fines and interest payments; you fold.

I'm against a property tax when our money is being p*ssed all over the place as is currently the case. If at some point in the future, we have a country that is being run properly, then I'd have no inherent problem with a property tax, but that isn't the situation right now, or anywhere remotely near it... There is nothing indecisive about that position.

As it is at the moment, I'm already planning on moving out of the country within the next 6 months, so no skin off my nose, a property tax here won't affect me either way...

As for how I'll vote on 2nd October, I really don't think it's open to a government to bring a country to the point of ruination, and then turn around and ask, "oh by the way, we need you to take our guidance on this and vote as we tell you next 2nd October!?!?!"...

It's like an abusive husband kicking his wife and kids around the house all day long and then him asking her nicely to make his dinner...

In a situation such as this, people get angry about things and they lash out, they start kicking the cat! Logic and rationality get set aside and people start saying, "ah here, I've had enough of this sh*t!", and they shoot from the hip. If that is what I am doing by saying I've had enough and I'll act in a manner that I accept might be irrational on the face of it, on the basis of the introduction of a property tax, then fine, I'm irrational and illogical, but at the ballot box, I am infallible, I cannot be wrong... I can be stupid, unwise, irrational, illogical, dumb, but I can never be wrong... Whatever way I vote, that ballot gets counted as I decide...

oscarBravo

MrPatMustard wrote: »

As for how I'll vote on 2nd October, I really don't think it's open to a government to bring a country to the point of ruination, and then turn around and ask, "oh by the way, we need you to take our guidance on this and vote as we tell you next 2nd October!?!?!"...

Your logic is deeply broken. You're operating on the assumption that the only possible reason there could be for voting for Lisbon is because the government wants you to.

It's like an abusive husband kicking his wife and kids around the house all day long and then him asking her nicely to make his dinner...

No, it's like an abused wife refusing to feed her children because that'll show her husband.

I can be stupid, unwise, irrational, illogical, dumb, but I can never be wrong... Whatever way I vote, that ballot gets counted as I decide...

In other words, there's nothing wrong with beating your wife as long as no-one finds out.

dvpower

MrPatMustard wrote: »

It's like an abusive husband kicking his wife and kids around the house all day long and then him asking her nicely to make his dinner...

It's like an abusive husband kicking his wife and kids around the house all day long and then him asking her nicely to feed the kids
Edit: oscarBravo beat me to it.

MrPatMustard wrote: »

In a situation such as this, people get angry about things and they lash out, they start kicking the cat! Logic and rationality get set aside and people start saying, "ah here, I've had enough of this sh*t!", and they shoot from the hip. If that is what I am doing by saying I've had enough and I'll act in a manner that I accept might be irrational on the face of it, on the basis of the introduction of a property tax, then fine, I'm irrational and illogical, but at the ballot box, I am infallible, I cannot be wrong... I can be stupid, unwise, irrational, illogical, dumb, but I can never be wrong... Whatever way I vote, that ballot gets counted as I decide...

But you wouldn't have decided on the issue at hand. You would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

TaxiManMartin

dvpower wrote: »

I don't quite get the point of this. If the property tax is sucessfully opposed, we will still need to raise more taxes. So, the government will simply add a few points to the income tax rate or get it from some other tax. Either way, taxes are on the way up.

What do you intend to do when your property tax bill drops through your letter box? Do you really want to be at the sharp end of the Revenue?

The fairest way is to to tax people is to have a proper income tax.
Make it a percentage of your total salary, right down to the dole.

Then the more you earn the more you pay. You dont pick on any sector of society unfairly at all.

Property tax is an unfair tax on homeowners. Everybody should pay. We all participated in the boom in some way. Even those taking over generous social welfare payments.

skelliser

another tax to screw the middle class

to get ahead in this country you either need to be a property developer/ff crony or lower class scum

Ireland: where Honest hardworking people foot the bill, everytime

asdasd

Property tax is an unfair tax on homeowners. Everybody should pay. We all participated in the boom in some way. Even those taking over generous social welfare payments.

Why is it unfair? Why is taxing people who have made money from walls unfair.

i really dont get this.

Most of this reminds me of watching stupid Americans oppose "socialised medicine" for the very opposite reasons they should. Generally it is been sold as harmful to the poor, or the disabled. Seriously. And they lap it up.

We are all going to pay more taxes. If rich people in Dalkey pay more taxes on the house, and not on their income, you pay less. If the top 10% of property owners are taxed correctly and that adds to the 4 Billion we need, then you pay less, or else you pay more. Got it? There is a far more inequitable distribution of wealth then there is of income.

And wealth does not necessarily correlate to income. Nobody is poor with a million euro house.

asdasd

In fact income has nothing at all to do with being rich.

If you doubt this think of Roman Abromovich in a year when his expenditure is greater than his income, giving him a negative income. That would be common enough I imagine given what he spends on Chelsea.

so

1) His income is < 0 - below the poverty line.
2) His wealth is 10 Billion.

Is he rich?

Tax the idle rich.

TaxiManMartin

asdasd wrote: »

Why is it unfair? Why is taxing people who have made money from walls unfair.

i really dont get this.

Most of this reminds me of watching stupid Americans oppose "socialised medicine" for the very opposite reasons they should. Generally it is been sold as harmful to the poor, or the disabled. Seriously. And they lap it up.

We are all going to pay more taxes. If rich people in Dalkey pay more taxes on the house, and not on their income, you pay less. If the top 10% of property owners are taxed correctly and that adds to the 4 Billion we need, then you pay less, or else you pay more. Got it? There is a far more inequitable distribution of wealth then there is of income.

And wealth does not necessarily correlate to income. Nobody is poor with a million euro house.

Do you pay ongoing tax on an armchair after you have bought it.

No you dont. You pay the tax up front.

How are people who live in their own homes rich?

They are rich when they sell it. Tax them then.

All property tax is doing is giving those of us who dont have property an excuse to lump the burden onto one particular section of society.

Time we all stepped up and took it, instead of trying to make others pay a our share.

Theres so much begrudgery going on in this country it makes me sick.

asdasd

How are people who live in their own homes rich?

They are rich when they sell it. Tax them then.

Oh would you stop. I cant continue to have an argument with someone who thinks that an asset is not an asset unless monetized. Hint to you. Having 1 million in shares, a house, or in money is exactly the same from any point of economic viewpoint.

Time we all stepped up and took it, instead of trying to make others pay a our share.

Fcuk that. The "share" of taxes owed by property owners should be the same as for income. Do you believe in equal income tax? I stayed out of the property market and the very rich - in terms of property - made money for doing nothing. If they had made money from doing something we wouldnt be having this argument, because they could easily pay their property tax on a million euro home were they able to afford it recently.

The cost of people making money for nothing is the negative equity on the other side of the fence. So we have two options

1) Tax grandma on her million euro home she bought for tuppance. If she cant pay she can monetize 1 million minus tax. Win for her, or
2) Tax the people who have higher income than her, but negative wealth.

No 2) is stupid. Tax grandma.

asdasd

Do you pay ongoing tax on an armchair after you have bought it.

It depreciates in value.

dvpower

TaxiManMartin wrote: »

The fairest way is to to tax people is to have a proper income tax.

Can't say that I disagree with you. I'd prefer the predictability of an income tax (high when your income is high; low when your income is low) than a tax that doesn't take into account your ability to pay

asdasd wrote: »

Why is it unfair? Why is taxing people who have made money from walls unfair.

No one has made money from walls until they sell those walls. A person might be living in Dalkey in an expensive house, but it doesn't mean that they have the income to pay an ongoing property tax based on its value. They only become rich when they sell the house.

Perhaps you would want these people to sell their houses to pay the tax? But this would be detrimental to social stability. Most people have different levels of income over different periods of their lives. Its unfair that people who have paid taxed income to buy their homes would be forced to downsize and move out of their areas because they don't have enough income to pay a property tax.

asdasd

But this would be detrimental to social stability. Most people have different levels of income over different periods of their lives. Its unfair that people who have paid taxed income to buy their homes would be forced to downsize and move out of their areas because they don't have enough income to pay a property tax.

And yet even the most capitalist societies in the world do it.

The cost of, and the ability to pay, a property tax would be taken into account when buying the house. Thats how it is done. Unemplyment will reduce your ability to pay a property tax, but also a mortgage. In both cases you can lose the house.

it does mean that pensioners - who suffer a drop in income - have to leave. That is a good thing. A pensioner in a big house is - and this is to use the term correctly not in the colloquial fashion - a waste of space.

gerry28

I don't beieve in a property tax at all. Taxes should be on transactions and money earned -not on your primary residence.

I pay road tax because i use roads I don't own. If i've already paid for my own house why should I pay tax on it. Tax has already been paid on every last brick in the houses we live in anyway.

My parents have recently paid of their mortgage and retired. Now the government comes and says 'ok now you will give us some money every year to continue living in your own house'???????

People should remember it was the double mistake by FF that will have this tax reintroduced:

(1.) they messed up taking it away when it was already in place.
(2.) they messed up the economy to the point that now they have to come panicking for any money they can get their useless hands on.

asdasd

People should remember it was the double mistake by FF that will have this tax reintroduced:

(1.) they messed up taking it away when it was already in place.
(2.) they messed up the economy to the point that now they have to come panicking for any money they can get their useless hands on.

People can remember that and still think that , in general, a property tax is a good thing.

dvpower

asdasd wrote: »

The cost of, and the ability to pay, a property tax would be taken into account when buying the house. Thats how it is done. Unemplyment will reduce your ability to pay a property tax, but also a mortgage. In both cases you can lose the house.

Up to a year or so ago there was no expectation that a property tax would be introduced, so there was no way that people who have bought houses could have taken this into account.

asdasd wrote: »

it does mean that pensioners - who suffer a drop in income - have to leave. That is a good thing. A pensioner in a big house is - and this is to use the term correctly not in the colloquial fashion - a waste of space.

Its a good thing that pensioners should be forced to move out of their homes?:eek: Well at least we know where you stand.

MrPatMustard

oscarBravo wrote: »

Your logic is deeply broken. You're operating on the assumption that the only possible reason there could be for voting for Lisbon is because the government wants you to. No, it's like an abused wife refusing to feed her children because that'll show her husband. In other words, there's nothing wrong with beating your wife as long as no-one finds out.

According to your logic, we should be more concerned with treaties and such nonsense that will have no real affect on our lives here, while standing back and looking at the country sliding deeper and deeper into an economic sh*thole on a macro economic level.

We don't need any more taxes or tax categories. What we need now is:

(1) Savage cuts to the cost of running the country, and...

(2) Immediate job creation...

These two things are very possible, only for the want of political will to achieve them. We don't need a property tax, the only reason we need one is to keep more public sector workers than we actually need, in overpaid jobs. More money taken out of people's pockets, by virtue of a property tax, will only mean less people spending what they no longer have as the government takes more from them and more people losing their jobs as spending tightens up even more, a property tax is counter productive, it will only buttress up more public sector jobs at the expense of more private sector jobs... What we need is less people working in the public sector and more people working in the private sector. A property tax will ultimately deliver the opposite. That money that will go to pay a property tax won't get spent in a restaurant or a hair salon or a bar, and people in those and other such industries will continue to lose their jobs...

Of course our politicians don't have the ability or intelligence that is required to create jobs and they don't have the bottle to sort out the public sector monster they have created, so the option we are seeing now being deployed is the least beneficial to us all, another tax that will cost more jobs.

oscarBravo

MrPatMustard wrote: »

According to your logic, we should be more concerned with treaties and such nonsense that will have no real affect on our lives here, while standing back and looking at the country sliding deeper and deeper into an economic sh*thole on a macro economic level.

No. My logic tells me that if I want to punish the government for being a complete waste of space, I do so in a general election, where my vote will actually achieve my goal. When I'm voting on a constitutional amendment, my vote is informed solely by whether I think the amendment is a good idea or not.

Your "logic" tells you that you should lash out angrily with no thought of the consequences of your actions, for good or ill.

With all due respect, I'll stick to my logic.

DJDC

I think people may be onto a winner by canvassing their FF TD's to pull back on this tax. The developers party will be be deeply opposed to this tax. For example, just look at Faheys portfolio(from wikipedia):

Fahey has assembled a very extensive property portfolio. Some are registered in his own name while others are held in partnership with relatives of associates These are located in his native Galway city and county, County Clare, Limerick, Dublin, France, Belgium, Portugal, the United States and Dubai. Fahey also owns or has shares in, shops and development land as well as six houses and 10 apartments in Ireland.

Watching from abroad, I can only laugh at peoples stupidity. Heres a real chance at hurting FF most and people are up in arms. No wonder the party consistently get voted in again and again.

Dankoozy

DJDC wrote: »

Watching from abroad, I can only laugh at peoples stupidity. Heres a real chance at hurting FF most and people are up in arms. No wonder the party consistently get voted in again and again.

Its would be like assassinating somebody, but by shooting through your own head first. and beside politicians are well paid enough to be able to afford the tax on a 1M or even more expensive house and they have a decent pension so they will never have to worry about having to move out because they can't afford the tax

there is also plenty of space in ireland, one of the more sparsely populated places with also a huge surplus in houses, so no need to go out of our way to try and free up room or increasing the TCO of a house

TaxiManMartin

asdasd wrote: »

Oh would you stop. I cant continue to have an argument with someone who thinks that an asset is not an asset unless monetized. Hint to you. Having 1 million in shares, a house, or in money is exactly the same from any point of economic viewpoint.



Fcuk that. The "share" of taxes owed by property owners should be the same as for income. Do you believe in equal income tax? I stayed out of the property market and the very rich - in terms of property - made money for doing nothing. If they had made money from doing something we wouldnt be having this argument, because they could easily pay their property tax on a million euro home were they able to afford it recently.

The cost of people making money for nothing is the negative equity on the other side of the fence. So we have two options

1) Tax grandma on her million euro home she bought for tuppance. If she cant pay she can monetize 1 million minus tax. Win for her, or
2) Tax the people who have higher income than her, but negative wealth.

No 2) is stupid. Tax grandma.

Wow.
Maybe you would like to just exterminate pensioners. It might be easier for you than just forcing them out of their houses by taxing them.

is_that_so

gerry28 wrote: »

I don't beieve in a property tax at all. Taxes should be on transactions and money earned -not on your primary residence.

I pay road tax because i use roads I don't own. If i've already paid for my own house why should I pay tax on it. Tax has already been paid on every last brick in the houses we live in anyway.

My parents have recently paid of their mortgage and retired. Now the government comes and says 'ok now you will give us some money every year to continue living in your own house'???????

People should remember it was the double mistake by FF that will have this tax reintroduced:

(1.) they messed up taking it away when it was already in place.
(2.) they messed up the economy to the point that now they have to come panicking for any money they can get their useless hands on.

Taxes and death are inevitable as they say. We need money to run the country. Road tax finds its way into the coffers of local authorities. "Spending taxes" reduce when people stop spending. This post IMO is reflective of a particular mentality in this country - i.e. "I am taxed too much, I'm not paying more but I want world class services for what I pay". In fact much of the commentary on this thread has swung from the apoplectic refuseniks to the more measured discussions on how something like this would work.

All this waffle about fair share is a hypocritical excuse for refusing to pay any more and indulging in the usual blame the "rich" game. Furthermore the whole sense of entitlement and outrage at it being challenged means that we are really not much inclined to think about what's good for the country. As some commentators have pointed out, many of the political decisions in this country are based on keeping the electorate quiet and competing for their favours by making ever more elaborate promises.


In truth we have had little real vision in this country since the 1960s. What has replaced it regrettably is vague shallow verbiage predicated on income streams that are all but predictable. Anything that looks at addressing that unpredictability is used as an excuse to go on all manner of clichéd rants that inevitably produces lots of heat but little light.

gerry28

Anything that looks at addressing that unpredictability is used as an excuse to go on all manner of clichéd rants that inevitably produces lots of heat but little light.

It must be remembered that this government still has not accepted responsibility for their role in the mess we are in. Yet they come with the hand out to the people looking for money?

I am not going to just shrug my shoulders and say 'ok lads take what you need there, let me know if you need anymore'.

We have been governed by fools and chancers for the last 15 years and I just do not have faith in them putting things right again.

horrible island

gerry28 wrote: »

It must be remembered that this government still has not accepted responsibility for their role in the mess we are in. Yet they come with the hand out to the people looking for money?

I am not going to just shrug my shoulders and say 'ok lads take what you need there, let me know if you need anymore'.

We have been governed by fools and chancers for the last 15 years and I just do not have faith in them putting things right again.

I did'nt hear one individual objecting to the way the country was governed before mid 2006. NOT ONE. One word sums up the populace of this "nice little country" bandwagon.

If property tax is imposed - and it will - then the way is open for water charges and whatever else you are having!!! (Water charges would be like asking the eskimos to pay for ice and snow). There would be no logical reason for the obvious extension of a property tax, other than pay for the maintenance of the system and that should be included in income tax.

Tax is good when the money is used in a sensible way. If a change of the tax base is needed then adjust the "working taxes" dont penalise hard pressed people some of whom on a reduced income!

Though the easy target is always chosen in Ireland, Nutsville will probably IMPOSE these loopy taxes. Very sad.

Must say even having such a thread on a chatboard all adds to the hysteria.

djpbarry

horrible island wrote: »

I did'nt hear one individual objecting to the way the country was governed before mid 2006. NOT ONE.

The Central Bank and the ESRI, among others, were warning about our over-reliance on the property sector for tax revenue since about 2004, if I recall correctly.

horrible island wrote: »

Water charges would be like asking the eskimos to pay for ice and snow.

Well, yeah, if the ice and snow is chlorinated, aerated, filtered and disinfected before use and then transported to the end user via some sort of distribution network, which requires maintenance and upkeep.

horrible island wrote: »

Tax is good when the money is used in a sensible way. If a change of the tax base is needed then adjust the "working taxes" dont penalise hard pressed people some of whom on a reduced income!

I think it’s safe to say that income tax rates and tax bands will be revised at the end of the current tax year. I think it’s also safe to say that those changes will be met with vociferous opposition.

horrible island

djpbarry wrote: »

The Central Bank and the ESRI, among others, were warning about our over-reliance on the property sector for tax revenue since about 2004, if I recall correctly.
Well, yeah, if the ice and snow is chlorinated, aerated, filtered and disinfected before use and then transported to the end user via some sort of distribution network, which requires maintenance and upkeep.
I think it’s safe to say that income tax rates and tax bands will be revised at the end of the current tax year. I think it’s also safe to say that those changes will be met with vociferous opposition.

If you recall... that says it all. Why were'nt the central bank calling press confrences every second week, from 2004???????????? Were was all the watch dogs??????????? Why was there no protests outside the Dail????????? Two words, hood and wink!!

Whats your point about water tax. Do you support it or not. If you do then your a misguided fool. Why dont you get along to your local TD and tell him you support an other hair brained idea to kick start the "economy" and oh yeah pay twice for the water coming out of your tap.

Well done Einstein you got it right about the tax changes. Does that make you feel happy???? Like paying for incompetence???????

asdasd

If you recall... that says it all. Why were'nt the central bank calling press confrences every second week, from 2004???????????? Were was all the watch dogs??????????? Why was there no protests outside the Dail????????? Two words, hood and wink!!

HirseSiht. Once we gave control of out interest rates to Europe there was nothing that a Central Bank can do but warn. High-level public executives dont protest outside the Dail.

They give warnings. They have to be circumspect ( if not they would be accused of causing the bust).

what wise people did was listen to Hurley's necessarily opaque wording and not buy houses. The rest of you sneered at us for not owning property.

We listened to Hurley. really you dont need to blame him.

EDIT: also I reported your post.