Opposing Property Tax

ei.sdraob

Copper1 wrote: »

I am very sympathetic to the YES to Lisbon ideal, however I will also be voting NO to Lisbon as it is the only way that I have to protest against a property tax. There appears to be massive acceptance of a property tax in the media, from politicians, etc ... why ... softening us up again??

I have already paid my property tax when I bought my house in the form of stampt duty and I am not willing to pay €1k+ per year on MY house ... what will it be in 3 years time - €3k? Additionally, in principle I am totally against paying tax on an asset that I worked hard to own and paid for from my already taxed income! If the government need more taxes then let them add a few more % to income tax .... rather that than tax my house.

The green lobby can bleat on about property tax, water tax and carbon tax for they are behind most of this. But what a time to introduce new taxes when the country is on its knees.

If anyone can suggest a better more effective way to make a protest (that will be heard) against the proposed property tax, please let me know.

Copper.

cutting your nose to spite your face ...

Copper1

tritium wrote: »

There are many reasons to hold a property tax as unfair, in particular in the current climate. To take ASDASD's arguement first. It is important to remember that a property tax isn't a tax on income or consumption a la most taxes. However neither is it a tax on wealth, as some would imply. The wealth used to purchase the house is already effectively taxed as income. Its the same as if I receive my taxed income and then go and buy a new bicycle. For it to be reflective as a tax on wealth it would have to a) only apply to the projected gain on the purchase price or b) only be applied to the realised profit from the asset. the first of these is captured in Capital gains tax . Its also safe to say that this approach is a non-runner due to the negative equity in parts of the market at present and the difficulty in applying it. the second part is addressed in the taxation of rental profits. I'd support applying a form of tax on second and subsequent homes, but really this is more as a tax on the availability of an asset for business rather than on the holding of an asset. The obvious point to doing that however is it will put an upward pressure on rental costs. How critical its effect would be against the downward pressures already in existance is another debate, though those posters who are sitting smugly telling us all how they were right to rent and to hell with those who bought in the boom might want to consider this.

A further objection would be that many homeowners in newer estates are already paying an additional charge in management fees for their homes. this charge is a legacy of the unwillingness of government to fund local government and services and means in effect that a section of homeowners receive a reduced or no benefit from the portion of their taxes that go to this. If the government would care to abolish my 1k+ managenment fee before bringing in a property tax of €800/yr then fair enough

A further point is more pertinent. My major objection to property tax is that it once again excessively targets the middle income group who are easiest to tax. the point of a progressive tax system is to apply a degree of equity (as opposed to equality). We have as a nation spectacularly failed to do this and instead taken the easy options of consistently penalising those groups who can least affect protest. A previous poster pointed out that the point of a viable tax is to capture as many people as possible in its net - we have as a nation failed in this aim. Fuelled on the one hand by a liberal agenda that argues that any cut in social spending or benefits is inherently wrong, and any reform of the system an attack on the poor, and on the other hand by a successive series of tax breaks and incentives that localise wealth, we have created a system where the middle ground are the group consistently squeezed.

Without meaningful reform of these two pillars, and the changes this implies, any recovery will be longer and more painful. Bringing in a property tax without such reform is akin to having a heart transplant to fix a migrane. Whether or not agenda groups like it we need to cut expenditure and close loopholes first in order begin recovery and restore confidence. Some of these will be painful and unpopular to the groups affected but the reality is that only in an economic wonderland to you have free medical cards for all over 70's, economically viable unemployment, and tax breaks on assets that increase in value year on year by double digit figures.

Spot on!

Copper1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

cutting your nose to spite your face ...

Absolutely , left with no other option.

And the majority of family and friends feel exactly the same and will be taking the same action. As I said, if there is a more effective method of protest, let me know.

ei.sdraob

Copper1 wrote: »

Absolutely , left with no other option.

And the majority of family and friends feel exactly the same and will be taking the same action. As I said, if there is a more effective method of protest, let me know.

how about doing what the OP is doing and starting a campaign?

voting on a EU treaty about domestic tax issues that are completely unrelated to said treaty is well for lack of a better word .... retarded ...

bleh of ya go so its your vote, you wont accomplish what you hope and only end up hurting yourself and this country down the road

its this sort of thinking that got the country in this mess, shame on you

ninty9er

Copper1 wrote: »

Absolutely , left with no other option.

And the majority of family and friends feel exactly the same and will be taking the same action. As I said, if there is a more effective method of protest, let me know.

What do you mean no other option? You will be given your opportunity to protest at the next general election.

Lisbon is completely unrelated. A NO vote will be seen as ignorance of the issues rather than a protest vote.

How many times must the people of this country be told, but then again, 50% of the people won't even bother to vote at all and a good minority of the rest will make a completely uninformed or misinformed choice.

It says more about you that you are willing to deprive 500 million people of a more efficient European Civil Service, and set the European Project back a decade or more based on issues that have nothing to do with them, than any result will say about our government.

Sand

Absolutely , left with no other option.

And the majority of family and friends feel exactly the same and will be taking the same action. As I said, if there is a more effective method of protest, let me know.

Seriously?

Go outside Leinster House and punch yourself in the balls until you pass out. Thatll show them.

Jesus.

Copper1

ninty9er wrote: »

What do you mean no other option? You will be given your opportunity to protest at the next general election.

Lisbon is completely unrelated. A NO vote will be seen as ignorance of the issues rather than a protest vote.

How many times must the people of this country be told, but then again, 50% of the people won't even bother to vote at all and a good minority of the rest will make a completely uninformed or misinformed choice.

It says more about you that you are willing to deprive 500 million people of a more efficient European Civil Service, and set the European Project back a decade or more based on issues that have nothing to do with them, than any result will say about our government.

I am fully aware of Lisbon and what a NO vote means. As I said, in ordinary circumstances, I would be voting YES. However, I am not prepared to wait until the next general election to register my protest against a government robbing me in the form of Property (and carbon and water taxes). If they need money raise my income tax, at least if I am made unemployed I wont have a permanent tax liability hanging over the only hard earned asset I have.

"Why dont I start a campaign against property tax" .. well one of the previous posters put it perfectly when they said that all these proposed taxes target the soft middle PAYE group who, for whatever reason(??) are unable to mount an effective protest ... maybe this is a comment on our national psyche.

ei.sdraob

Copper1 wrote: »

I am fully aware of Lisbon and what a NO vote means. As I said, in ordinary circumstances, I would be voting YES. However, I am not prepared to wait until the next general election to register my protest against a government robbing me in the form of Property (and carbon and water taxes). If they need money raise my income tax, at least if I am made unemployed I wont have a permanent tax liability hanging over the only hard earned asset I have.

"Why dont I start a campaign against property tax" .. well one of the previous posters put it perfectly when they said that all these proposed taxes target the soft middle PAYE group who, for whatever reason(??) are unable to mount an effective protest ... maybe this is a comment on our national psyche.

once again what will that accomplish?

Copper1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

once again what will that accomplish?

Crude and blunt it may be, but it is a form of protest. The bigger picture is a luxury for me at the moment when I am struggling to pay a mortgage, car loan, income levies, healthcare, etc. An additional property tax is just something that I cannot afford.

Its difficult to be reasoned and calm when the average middle income PAYE worker is being squeezed dry again and again beacuse a cynical government is too afraid to make expenditure custs and in doing so take on public sector unions, the green lobby and social welfare recipients.

ei.sdraob

Copper1 wrote: »

Crude and blunt it may be, but it is a form of protest. The bigger picture is a luxury for me at the moment when I am struggling to pay a mortgage, car loan, income levies, healthcare, etc. An additional property tax is just something that I cannot afford.

Its difficult to be reasoned and calm when the average middle income PAYE worker is being squeezed dry again and again beacuse a cynical government is too afraid to make expenditure custs and in doing so take on public sector unions, the green lobby and social welfare recipients.

firstly im pissed of at the government too

half of my blood money was taken last year and given to bankers and of course im not happy, but neither am I deluded enough to to something like that


dragging Lisbon into this is downright stupid and would hurt you and everyone else in the country down the line while it does nothing to hurt FF, whether Lisbon passes or not the ministers will still receive a nice fat state pension down the road, courtesy of you and me :mad:


you are reasoning that FF somehow care about Lisbon so you want to hurt them, they only care about banks and their buddy developers



seriously dude, stand back for a second and dont let your anger at the government hurt yourself

dvpower

Copper1 wrote: »

Crude and blunt it may be, but it is a form of protest.

how are the government going to interpret your no vote as an anti-property tax protest?

ei.sdraob

dvpower wrote: »

how are the government going to interpret your no vote as an anti-property tax protest?

the ministers read boards of course

P. Breathnach

Copper1 wrote: »

... Its difficult to be reasoned and calm when the average middle income PAYE worker is being squeezed dry again and again beacuse a cynical government is too afraid to make expenditure custs and in doing so take on public sector unions, the green lobby and social welfare recipients.

We do indeed have a tradition of cynicism in our politics. to a considerable extent, our elected politicians are cynical because the voters make them so.

One manifestation of that is people treating their own self-interest as a principle (my guess is that you do not work in the public sector, are not dependent on social welfare, and do not care greatly about the environment). Why should politicians make decisions based on a coherent set of principles when the voters choose them for different reasons?

Another manifestation of our political cynicism is misusing our votes, often doing so knowingly.

I do not think you are in a good position to complain about cynicism.

AntiPropertyTax

The debate about the property tax is begining to be heard, and so for anyone who is really opposed to this tax, it is essential to make your views known now to your local Fianna Fail and Green TDs.

The key is to make them realise that there is very strong opposition to this new tax in their constituencys, and that they won't be forgiven if they introduce such an unfair measure that hurts ordinary people.

Fianna Fail back-benchers (and potential leaders too) have to realise that introducing and supporting this tax in the december budget will prevent them from getting back into government after 1 term in opposition. Being "the party that brought in the property tax" will be electoral suicide for Fianna Fail in 2012, and 2017 and beyond.

ninty9er

Here is a list of every TDs email address from Monday's Times. I wish you the best of luck with the campaign, but you should keep it about property tax.

Lisbon is not related to this argument, nor should any such idea be entertained or suggested

http://www.ulsu.ie/UserFiles/Uploads/File/TimesAdv5.pdf

oscarBravo

Copper1 wrote: »

If anyone can suggest a better more effective way to make a protest (that will be heard) against the proposed property tax, please let me know.

I'm planning to hijack a large truck and drive it at high speed down the wrong side of a motorway.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand, and the consequences could be serious and far-reaching, but I'm not prepared to wait for an election, so I don't see that I have much choice.

ninty9er

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm planning to hijack a large truck and drive it at high speed down the wrong side of a motorway.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand, and the consequences could be serious and far-reaching, but I'm not prepared to wait for an election, so I don't see that I have much choice.

Makes about as much more sense than basing a referendum choice on government performance.

nuac

Hope Oscar Bravo gives us some warning of when s/he proposes to go truck driving!.

About property tax and a charge for water which has also come up. I suggest both are a reasonable part of any taxation system.

Re property tax, there can be reliefs for those who have recently paid stamp duty and vat, those on low incomes, option of deferment for the very elderly etc etc. Fianna Fail should not have taken rates off private houses in 1977. It weakened local authorities, making them too dependent on central exchequer funding. While everyone can make a case for not paying any tax, there are many who can so afford it. There are many houses around the West of Ireland, which is the less advantaged part of the country, with five bedrooms en suite, two or three cars or SUV outside, occupiers going on two three foreign holidays a year etc etc.

Re charge for water. Many already paying this to e.g. their group schemes etc. There should be a metered charge for water use over a certain basic amount, again with allowances and reliefs for those on low incomes. While there are leaks in local authority schemes, I have seen a lot of wastage in residential areas - hoses left running all day etc.

newname

Looks like the property tax won't be coming in the next budget after all according to Brian Lenihan.

He seems to be looking at a carbon tax instead.

ninty9er

newname wrote: »

Looks like the property tax won't be coming in the next budget after all according to Brian Lenihan.

He seems to be looking at a carbon tax instead.

At least it's an at source tax for which usage will be definable.

newname

So we can expect rises in the price of oil, coal, electricity, diesel, petrol.

They'll save property tax for the following year

Trampas

Haven't gone through all the other posts so sorry if said already

If they bring in property tax is will it effect both employed and looking for employment homes.

The country can't afford to tighten the difference between employed and looking for employment people.

I know there isn't loads of jobs out there but when there is more jobs the country needs to make people better off by getting a job instead of not taking a job because they will feel it is not worth it cause they will lose benefits for having an extra couple of euro in their pocket.

Sideshow Mark

If a property tax replaced stamp duty, I'd be for it.

Also there are plenty of legitimate reasons for voting no to Lisbon II, without using it as a protest against something that hasnt been announced yet.

ninty9er

Sideshow Mark wrote: »

Also there are plenty of legitimate reasons for voting no to Lisbon II, without using it as a protest against something that hasnt been announced yet.

The legitimacy of those reasons is very much based on individual viewpoint.
There are a lot of reasons that are actually reasons to not vote No as opposed to reasons to vote YES.

Such as
- Retention of the "Triple Lock"
- No changes on Taxation
- No changes on commissioner
- Unanimity required for defence/peacekeeping

None of these have anything to do with ANY Irish tax.

Sideshow Mark

AntiPropertyTax wrote: »

. Being "the party that brought in the property tax" will be electoral suicide for Fianna Fail in 2012, and 2017 and beyond.

They've already made themselves unelectable for many years to come.

dresden8

newname wrote: »

Looks like the property tax won't be coming in the next budget after all according to Brian Lenihan.

He seems to be looking at a carbon tax instead.

The greens are so insane they will trumpet this as a victory.

Call to my door Trev, I dare ya!

newname

The greens are so insane they will trumpet this as a victory.

FF must have bought off the greens with this new move. Leave out the property tax and bring in the carbon tax instead. We'll prob see the greens full steam behind NAMA now.

I have to say tho i am relieved the property tax is of the radar for a while.
At least with the carbon tax you can choose to lower your usage and therefore your costs.

dresden8

newname wrote: »

FF must have bought off the greens with this new move. Leave out the property tax and bring in the carbon tax instead. We'll prob see the greens full steam behind NAMA now.

I have to say tho i am relieved the property tax is of the radar for a while.
At least with the carbon tax you can choose to lower your usage and therefore your costs.

Hardly. There is a base level of consuption of gas, electricity and petrol people can't go below. No doubt the greens will want to punish those lifestyle choices, i.e. heating and lighting in the winter.

Copper1

newname wrote: »

Looks like the property tax won't be coming in the next budget after all according to Brian Lenihan.

He seems to be looking at a carbon tax instead.

Will believe that when there is more positive confirmation.

dvpower

Sideshow Mark wrote: »

If a property tax replaced stamp duty, I'd be for it.

I thought that that was the proposal?