Percentage of Laws.

Iwasfrozen

Does anyone know what percentage of laws actually come from Brussels ?
Thanks in advance.

FutureTaoiseach

FG claimed it was 30% but I understand that was based on the narrowest possible definition of "our laws", only including EU directives, as they alone have to be transposed into national law. They didn't include those which don't have to be transposed but come into effect anyway, including regulations.

Scofflaw

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

FG claimed it was 30% but I understand that was based on the narrowest possible definition of "our laws", only including EU directives, as they alone have to be transposed into national law. They didn't include those which don't have to be transposed but come into effect anyway, including regulations.

They gave two figures - 28% excluding regulations, 43% including them. It's been pointed out, though, that most regulations are just that, 'regulations' equivalent to regulations issued by our own civil service. Calling them "law" is a way of pretending they're the same thing as an Act of the Oireachtas.

cordially,
Scofflaw

FutureTaoiseach

Scofflaw wrote: »

They gave two figures - 28% excluding regulations, 43% including them. It's been pointed out, though, that most regulations are just that, 'regulations' equivalent to regulations issued by our own civil service. Calling them "law" is a way of pretending they're the same thing as an Act of the Oireachtas.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But EU regulations are laws to all intents and purposes. They are EU law. Surely EU law is law? And surely an important difference is that the Irish civil service can't initiate legislation without the consent of the executive, whereas the Commission is the executive?

oscarBravo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

And surely an important difference is that the Irish civil service can't initiate legislation without the consent of the executive, whereas the Commission is the executive?

Are you trying to claim that the EU Commission is the equivalent of the civil service?

FutureTaoiseach

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you trying to claim that the EU Commission is the equivalent of the civil service?

No. I'm disputing Scofflaw's analogy between the Commission and the civil service.

oscarBravo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

No. I'm disputing Scofflaw's analogy between the Commission and the civil service.

Scofflaw didn't make that analogy. He made an analogy between EU regulations and civil service regulations. If you want to dispute that analogy, go ahead.

For starters, you seem to be under the illusion that the Commission alone creates regulations. You might want to read up on that.

View

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

But EU regulations are laws to all intents and purposes. They are EU law. Surely EU law is law? And surely an important difference is that the Irish civil service can't initiate legislation without the consent of the executive, whereas the Commission is the executive?

The Commission is the executive AND the commission officials (i.e. civil servants equivalents) who work for them. Just as the Government is the executive (i.e. cabinet) AND the civil servants who work for them.

In both cases, the respective legal sections do the actual drafting of the laws/regulations only with the consent of their respective executives. In other words, when they get instructions to do so.

Its probably just as well the legal sections do so - it would be a terrifying prospect to have many of our Government Ministers or Commissioners drafting our laws/regulations on their own. :eek:

gizmo555

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's been pointed out, though, that most regulations are just that, 'regulations' equivalent to regulations issued by our own civil service. Calling them "law" is a way of pretending they're the same thing as an Act of the Oireachtas.

Whether they originate with the EU or domestically, they are laws, in the sense that they must be complied with and in most cases, failure to do so is an offence which may result in fines and/or imprisonment.

FutureTaoiseach

oscarBravo wrote: »

Scofflaw didn't make that analogy. He made an analogy between EU regulations and civil service regulations. If you want to dispute that analogy, go ahead.

For starters, you seem to be under the illusion that the Commission alone creates regulations. You might want to read up on that.

I know that can only initiate them, but the Irish civil service can't without permission from the executive. That was the point I was making.

gizmo555

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

And surely an important difference is that the Irish civil service can't initiate legislation without the consent of the executive, whereas the Commission is the executive?

Not so. To give an example that I happen to be familiar with, the Irish Aviation Authority is the body in charge of regulating civil aviation in Ireland. It can issue regulations in the form of statutory instruments on its own authority without reference to the government.

FutureTaoiseach

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not so. To give an example that I happen to be familiar with, the Irish Aviation Authority is the body in charge of regulating civil aviation in Ireland. It can issue regulations in the form of statutory instruments on its own authority without reference to the government.

Yes but they only have that power because the politicians gave it to them. EU Regulations come from the three elements of the EU legislature, namely the executive/Commission, the Council of Ministers (and sometimes the European Council) and usually the European Parliament. These EU institutions are using powers given to them in the Treaties, whereas you are talking about an authority to which power has been delegated by the politicians.

oscarBravo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Yes but they only have that power because the politicians gave it to them. EU Regulations come from the three elements of the EU legislature, namely the executive/Commission, the Council of Ministers (and sometimes the European Council) and usually the European Parliament. These EU institutions are using powers given to them in the Treaties, whereas you are talking about an authority to which power has been delegated by the politicians.

And who gave the EU institutions the powers they exercise under the treaties?

FutureTaoiseach

oscarBravo wrote: »

And who gave the EU institutions the powers they exercise under the treaties?

The member states. I am not complaining about that. I am simply differentiating between the role of national civil servants and that of an executive, in response to Scofflaw. The context is that this thread is talking about what percentage of our laws are EU laws, which obviously brings up the question of what constitutes a "law". I am arguing that EU regulations constitute laws. Scofflaw doesn't seem to agree with me on that though.

oscarBravo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

The context is that this thread is talking about what percentage of our laws are EU laws, which obviously brings up the question of what constitutes a "law".

No, it brings up the question of what constitutes "our laws". EU regulations form part of the body of EU law, but are not transposed into Irish law.

P. Breathnach

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

... I am simply differentiating between the role of national civil servants and that of an executive, in response to Scofflaw. The context is that this thread is talking about what percentage of our laws are EU laws, which obviously brings up the question of what constitutes a "law". I am arguing that EU regulations constitute laws. Scofflaw doesn't seem to agree with me on that though.

Many people, and I suspect that you are among them, are playing a different game. There is a strong implication in discussions about the percentage of our laws that come from Brussels that the EU is supplanting the Oireachtas.

FutureTaoiseach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Many people, and I suspect that you are among them, are playing a different game. There is a strong implication in discussions about the percentage of our laws that come from Brussels that the EU is supplanting the Oireachtas.

I would compare it to a federation in the sense that whereas American states find themselves hemmed in by federal law which they mustn't contravene in their own legislation, the same is the case with legislation passed by the Oireachtas. Of course, the Oireachtas could go ahead and legislate in a manner that contradicts EU legislation, but it would end up in the ECJ and the relevant legislation being ruled as being in contravention with EU legislation, with the possibility the court would impose fines on Ireland. Now before someone reminds me of the German Constitutional Court ruling saying the EU is not a federation, I would add that they can only interpret in the context of the German constitution.

Scofflaw

This seems a reasonable place to clarify the law-making process in the EU, for FutureTaoiseach's benefit if non-one else's. A large number of people seem to be under the impression that the Commission is the "government" of the EU, and EU legislation simply flows from the Commission as it does from our own government. For that reason, I'll concentrate on the Commission's role in the process, rather than the details of co-decision et al.

First, the national process obviously doesn't simply consist of the Cabinet making laws. As most people know, the Cabinet sets the policy agenda, and makes the necessary legislative proposals in the form of Bills. However, before those Bills can become law in the form of Acts, they must pass the Dáil and the Seanad. Only the Houses of the Oireachtas have the power to initiate Acts, and certain Acts (particularly financial Acts) can only be initiated by the Dáil.

Before a Bill is initiated its contents will have been discussed and approved by the Cabinet. The contents of the Bill is obviously not drafted personally by the relevant Minister, but is instead drafted by the civil servants of the Minister's Department. In some cases, external experts may be involved. Where it is felt necessary, public consultation may take place, through the use of a Green Paper, requests for submissions, and contact with relevant corporate bodies. The actual text of the Bill is drawn up by the Parliamentary Draftsmen, who are attached to the Attorney General's Office.

Now, as gizmo has pointed out, there is also the Statutory Instrument, which is "an order, regulation, rule, bye-law, warrant, licence, certificate, direction, notice, guideline or other like document made, issued, granted or otherwise created by or under an Act [of the Oireachtas]". This is, in essence, the use of delegated authority, but the product is no less legally binding for that. While certain Statutory Instruments are recorded as such by the Oireachtas, many statutory instruments are not centrally recorded.

So, there are various elements in the process:

1. setting the policy agenda - the Cabinet
2. initiating legislation - the Cabinet
3. drawing up of legislation - the national Civil Service
4. drafting of legislation - Attorney General's Office
5. debate, amendment, rejection/acceptance of Bill - Oireachtas
6. implementation of law - the national Civil Service

The EU process, obviously, is somewhat different:

1. setting the policy agenda - European Council
2. initiating legislation - the Commission
3. drawing up of legislation - the national Civil Services and Commission
4. drafting of legislation - the national Civil Services and the three EU Legal Services
5. debate, amendment, rejection/acceptance of the legislation - Council of Ministers and European Parliament
6. implementation of law - the national Civil Services and Commission

For some reason, very few people outside the civil service or the EU appear to be aware of what actually happens at step 3. The Commission has a civil service of 38,000 - far too small to draw up European legislation even if it did nothing else. Instead, EU legislation is drawn up by the civil services of the member states, passed around, and eventually OK'd by the Commission. Again, during that process, public consultation may take place, through the use of a Commission Green Paper, requests for submissions, and contact with relevant corporate bodies.

The Commission, it is important to note, doesn't set the policy agenda for the EU - that is set by the European Council (or European Summit), which is the council of the heads of government of the member states. The reason the Commission has the sole right of legislative initiative is to check that European legislation is European - that it doesn't favour some countries at the expense of others, and that it is not legislation that could be better done nationally (this being something which Lisbon improves by involving the national parliaments in the subsidiarity checks). Since 'European' legislation is actually drawn up by the national civil services, it is not strictly necessary for the Commission itself to contain a Commissioner from every member state in order to ensure balance, but the presence of an "Irish" Commissioner certainly gives a degree more legitimacy to the outcome.

While the Commission initiates all legislation with respect to the EC (essentially, the Common Market), it cannot simply pass it into law. The Council of Ministers and the European Parliament must give their assent to the legislation, and have the power also to amend the proposed legislation before accepting or rejecting it. The Commission has no right of legislative initiative in respect of Justice and Home Affairs, and a shared right (with the Council) of initiative over CSFP.

To describe the Commission, then, as the equivalent of a national Cabinet, is to claim for them a far greater role in legislation than they actually have. A national Cabinet has the power both to set its own policy agenda, and to issue the necessary legislative proposals to carry out that agenda. By virtue of (usually) controlling the necessary seats in the national Parliament, the party that forms the Cabinet also usually has the power to get its proposed legislation passed.

The Commission, by contrast, does not set the policy agenda, and controls neither the Council of Ministers nor the European Parliament, both of which bodies also can and do request the Commission to draft legislation they feel is required.

Essentially, the Commission's role in EU legislation is to act as a central filter, to ensure that legislation is balanced and necessary at the European level, and simultaneously to give it a coherent and uniform legal basis. It is not the captain of the ship, but the pilot.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

The too long/didn't read version of Scofflaw's post:

The Commission isn't like a national Government, it's powers are far more limited and more so these powers are area specific. Thinking of it as being like a national Government will just end up with you making false analogies. Basically the Commission is hog tied by the national Governments and isn't a fully independent entity that can force its will on countries.

molloyjh

Thanks for that Scofflaw. I may steal it for future reference if you don't mind......

Victor

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not so. To give an example that I happen to be familiar with, the Irish Aviation Authority is the body in charge of regulating civil aviation in Ireland. It can issue regulations in the form of statutory instruments on its own authority without reference to the government.

All Statutory Instruments (mostly regualtions and ministerial orders) are subject to being put before the Oireachtas. If the Oireachtas doesn't like it, they can kill it. In reality, most are common sense sets of rules for carrying on business. That many come from the EU at some stage or other simply means that at least someone has proof-read them.

If people want the % of EU legislation reduced, they could set themselves to work on producing more Irish legislation, in particular on reform, consolidation / re-statement and abolition of defunct pre-independence statutes.

Scofflaw

Victor wrote: »

All Statutory Instruments (mostly regualtions and ministerial orders) are subject to being put before the Oireachtas. If the Oireachtas doesn't like it, they can kill it. In reality, most are common sense sets of rules for carrying on business. That many come from the EU at some stage or other simply means that at least someone has proof-read them.

If people want the % of EU legislation reduced, they could set themselves to work on producing more Irish legislation, in particular on reform, consolidation / re-statement and abolition of defunct pre-independence statutes.

I think you're thinking there of the Statutory Orders that are issued by the Cabinet, and which you'll find listed in the Irish Statute Book. Regulations of the sort gizmo was referring to are also technically 'statutory orders', but as far as I'm aware are neither put before the Oireachtas nor recorded centrally. The definition of 'statutory order' is extremely wide - it covers, amongst other things, bye-laws.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Victor

No, AFAIK, certain state agencies (I think its only agencies) have the power to issue SIs, but are fairly limited to their own scope. For example the RPA Luas bye-laws are SIs and the IAA schedule of charges are SIs. This are typically put in place at a board or executive level, with no democratic input until after the fact.

limklad

Scofflaw wrote: »

They gave two figures - 28% excluding regulations, 43% including them. It's been pointed out, though, that most regulations are just that, 'regulations' equivalent to regulations issued by our own civil service. Calling them "law" is a way of pretending they're the same thing as an Act of the Oireachtas.

cordially,
Scofflaw

According to the EU Treaties (up to NICE Treaty) that we signed and ratification since 2002, they (EU Directives, EU Decisions and EU Regulations) are not only part of our Irish Law but has the same standing as Irish Law and such Acts passed in the Oireachtas.

limklad

Scofflaw wrote: »

This seems a reasonable place to clarify the law-making process in the EU, for FutureTaoiseach's benefit if non-one else's. A large number of people seem to be under the impression that the Commission is the "government" of the EU, and EU legislation simply flows from the Commission as it does from our own government. For that reason, I'll concentrate on the Commission's role in the process, rather than the details of co-decision et al.

First, the national process obviously doesn't simply consist of the Cabinet making laws. As most people know, the Cabinet sets the policy agenda, and makes the necessary legislative proposals in the form of Bills. However, before those Bills can become law in the form of Acts, they must pass the Dáil and the Seanad. Only the Houses of the Oireachtas have the power to initiate Acts, and certain Acts (particularly financial Acts) can only be initiated by the Dáil.

Before a Bill is initiated its contents will have been discussed and approved by the Cabinet. The contents of the Bill is obviously not drafted personally by the relevant Minister, but is instead drafted by the civil servants of the Minister's Department. In some cases, external experts may be involved. Where it is felt necessary, public consultation may take place, through the use of a Green Paper, requests for submissions, and contact with relevant corporate bodies. The actual text of the Bill is drawn up by the Parliamentary Draftsmen, who are attached to the Attorney General's Office.

Now, as gizmo has pointed out, there is also the Statutory Instrument, which is "an order, regulation, rule, bye-law, warrant, licence, certificate, direction, notice, guideline or other like document made, issued, granted or otherwise created by or under an Act [of the Oireachtas]". This is, in essence, the use of delegated authority, but the product is no less legally binding for that. While certain Statutory Instruments are recorded as such by the Oireachtas, many statutory instruments are not centrally recorded.

So, there are various elements in the process:

1. setting the policy agenda - the Cabinet
2. initiating legislation - the Cabinet
3. drawing up of legislation - the national Civil Service
4. drafting of legislation - Attorney General's Office
5. debate, amendment, rejection/acceptance of Bill - Oireachtas
6. implementation of law - the national Civil Service

The EU process, obviously, is somewhat different:

1. setting the policy agenda - European Council
2. initiating legislation - the Commission
3. drawing up of legislation - the national Civil Services and Commission
4. drafting of legislation - the national Civil Services and the three EU Legal Services
5. debate, amendment, rejection/acceptance of the legislation - Council of Ministers and European Parliament
6. implementation of law - the national Civil Services and Commission

For some reason, very few people outside the civil service or the EU appear to be aware of what actually happens at step 3. The Commission has a civil service of 38,000 - far too small to draw up European legislation even if it did nothing else. Instead, EU legislation is drawn up by the civil services of the member states, passed around, and eventually OK'd by the Commission. Again, during that process, public consultation may take place, through the use of a Commission Green Paper, requests for submissions, and contact with relevant corporate bodies.

The Commission, it is important to note, doesn't set the policy agenda for the EU - that is set by the European Council (or European Summit), which is the council of the heads of government of the member states. The reason the Commission has the sole right of legislative initiative is to check that European legislation is European - that it doesn't favour some countries at the expense of others, and that it is not legislation that could be better done nationally (this being something which Lisbon improves by involving the national parliaments in the subsidiarity checks). Since 'European' legislation is actually drawn up by the national civil services, it is not strictly necessary for the Commission itself to contain a Commissioner from every member state in order to ensure balance, but the presence of an "Irish" Commissioner certainly gives a degree more legitimacy to the outcome.

While the Commission initiates all legislation with respect to the EC (essentially, the Common Market), it cannot simply pass it into law. The Council of Ministers and the European Parliament must give their assent to the legislation, and have the power also to amend the proposed legislation before accepting or rejecting it. The Commission has no right of legislative initiative in respect of Justice and Home Affairs, and a shared right (with the Council) of initiative over CSFP.

To describe the Commission, then, as the equivalent of a national Cabinet, is to claim for them a far greater role in legislation than they actually have. A national Cabinet has the power both to set its own policy agenda, and to issue the necessary legislative proposals to carry out that agenda. By virtue of (usually) controlling the necessary seats in the national Parliament, the party that forms the Cabinet also usually has the power to get its proposed legislation passed.

The Commission, by contrast, does not set the policy agenda, and controls neither the Council of Ministers nor the European Parliament, both of which bodies also can and do request the Commission to draft legislation they feel is required.

Essentially, the Commission's role in EU legislation is to act as a central filter, to ensure that legislation is balanced and necessary at the European level, and simultaneously to give it a coherent and uniform legal basis. It is not the captain of the ship, but the pilot.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You should put that in a sticky with other information in how the EU currently works. Good analogy with the Pilot. Good post.

worldrepublic

I saw a figure of 68% somewhere, but it is a blurry and complex area. Ideally, all laws could issue from Brussels anyway.... the various parties could then have an input at the level of implementation.

Iwasfrozen

Thanks for the input guys, the only reason I ask is because of this report:
http://eulaws.freetzi.com/eulaws.pdf
That someone has made out over in P.ie.

limklad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Thanks for the input guys, the only reason I ask is because of this report:
http://eulaws.freetzi.com/eulaws.pdf
That someone has made out over in P.ie.

From that report, it seems that 78% of Irish Law in 2008 comes from Brussels. I will need to examine his work to verify it.

limklad

oscarBravo wrote: »

EU regulations form part of the body of EU law, but are not transposed into Irish law.

Yes they (EU regulations) were applied into Irish Law, pre Nice Treaty. For example S.I. No. 24/2001 — European Communities (Specified Risk Material) Regulations, 2001

After NICE Treaty was ratified in 2003, our government was creating S.I. so that future EU Regulations were been made part of Irish Law automatically. For Example S.I. No. 331/2003 SEA FISHERIES (CONSERVATION AND RATIONAL EXPLOITATION OF COD IN THE IRISH SEA) REGULATIONS 2003

S.I. No. 331/2003 wrote:

“Council Regulation” means Council Regulation (EC) No. 2549/2000 of 17 November, 2000(1) as amended by Council Regulation (EC) No. 1456(2) of 16 July 2001 and any future Regulation of the Council made after the making of these Regulations which amends, extends, replaces or consolidates (with or without modification) the Council Regulation (as defined herein);

worldrepublic

molloyjh wrote: »

Thanks for that Scofflaw. I may steal it for future reference if you don't mind......

Thanks Scofflaw, I will print it out... for bedtime reading, and for future reference. You should really be the next President of Europe.:cool:

Iwasfrozen

I'd vote for him.