Vodafone stole €1200 out of a separate joint account

Nody

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The whole point of the matter is thet there was a serious problem and Vodafone customer care knew of it.

They where told; don't mean the appropiate notes etc. where done by the individual person.

Rather than try to deal with the customer in question they went directly to the bank. Whether it was automated deduction or not they should have been more dignified over the matter.

See above; unless the account was blocked there would be no, none, nada, human involvement in the automatic payment run. Their system would generate a payment file sent to the bank requesting the cash from the bank account the original DD was set up on. From that point the bank was in error by going to a different account to try to execute it.

It had also been explained to customer care at the time that the customer in question was unemployed and did not have e1200 in her account so what were they playing at?

And why would they care if the person is unemployed and can't pay the 1200? This is of course beyond the previous point that no one actually looked (or would be allowed to look) at something like that in the first place as it would be an automated process.

And before you run of screaming again I've never worked for Vodafone or any other mobile company but I have worked in major international billing companies.

Walkman

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The whole point of the matter is thet there was a serious problem and Vodafone customer care knew of it.

Rather than try to deal with the customer in question they went directly to the bank. Whether it was automated deduction or not they should have been more dignified over the matter.

It had also been explained to customer care at the time that the customer in question was unemployed and did not have e1200 in her account so what were they playing at?

I do not dispute the fact that if the error is on Vodafone's side then it is their mistake as they agreed to half the bill (obviously the CC rep never informed whoever would have made the adjustment on the bill...a MISTAKE I would imagine). The fact the person is currently unemployed (however unfortunate that is) is not the issue here. The issue is how the monies were deducted from another account not named on the Vodafone account and that is to be taken up with the bank not Vodafone

Rhymenocerous

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The whole point of the matter is thet there was a serious problem and Vodafone customer care knew of it.

Rather than try to deal with the customer in question they went directly to the bank. Whether it was automated deduction or not they should have been more dignified over the matter.

It had also been explained to customer care at the time that the customer in question was unemployed and did not have e1200 in her account so what were they playing at?

When you sign the pay monthly contract, then you agree to pay your bill monthly, all calls, all charges, no matter. Vodafone are 100% in the right to bill the customer every month. That's the contract.

From what it seems (could be wrong, but this is what I get from the second hand information, speculation and random accusations in both threads)
(1) the customer got a bill for €1200 (quite steep; I can understand the shock).
(2) Customer rang up Vodafone and said they didn't make the calls, so are not paying (contrary to what they actually signed up for).
(3) Due to a slight mistake on Vodafone's part with informing the customer at the time of unauthorised calls they agree to go 50/50 on the cost (quite a fair resolution if you ask me).
(4) Customer declines this, stating they owe nothing (when in fact, the contract they signed states they owe it all)
(5) Vodafone bill the account for that month, as the contract stipulates all outstanding payments must be paid monthly.
(6) Bank make a mistake with DD.

This is not even your issue; it's the bill payers. I don't see what you want from this thread, bar ranting and raving, which is a whole separate forum.

To sum it up: Vodafone are 100% in the right to bill per month as the contract states. Vodafone are being very fair with their 50:50 offer, it should have been accepted. The bank (it seems, as thisissue is not even 100% clear) have made a mistake. The bill payer, even with the refund of the money from the bank, still owes the amount on the bill.

My advice:
The policy holder should ring Vodafone and see if the offer for 50:50 is still on the table, and then pay it promptly. If they are unemployed, then look into cancelling the bill and going to a pay as you go or opt in for the insurance package as it covers the user for this situation in the future.

Run_to_da_hills

Cash is to be refunded by Vodafone however there is still a dispute over the bill.

Ian Beale

Walkman wrote: »

The issue is how the monies were deducted from another account not named on the Vodafone account and that is to be taken up with the bank not Vodafone

This happens often and is legal, when people have DD's setup on one account and if that account has no money in it (for whatever reason) the bank see's that the direct debit has failed and will take the money from another account if the customer has another with them especially if the customer usually pays their bills every month and may have just forgotten to put money in.

TBH the only strange thing is they took it from a joint account which I didn't think they would do and that's probably why they've agreed on the refund.

parsi

What did the Guards say when they were informed that Vodafone stole €1200 ?

amcalester

The reason the Bank refunded the money is that under the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme they are obliged to refund the money in any disputed direct debit pending the outcome of an investigation.

If after their investigation it turns out that Vodefone had the proper authorisation the Bank will come looking for the money from the account holder. The bank will not be interested in any agreement between account holder and Vodafone about paying half of the bill.

As for the money having been taken out of the joint account, Vodafone are a member of the Direct Debit Plus scheme which means that they can set up a paperless direct debit (ie no direct debit mandate is signed by the customer, bank details can be taken over the phone) on any bank account.

I have worked for an Irish bank in the Direct Debit department and it couldn't happen that we would apply a direct debit to any other account apart from the account number in the file sent by Vodafones bank. (We had a very new system in place so maybe others banks had a different set up)

Are you sure that Vodafone were not given the bank details by accident? You'd be surprised how many times people gave joint account numbers instead of single account number (and vice versa) to companies.

And 1 other thing, have them go back through the joint account to see if Vodafone have ever taken a direct debit from that account before, could be they've always taken the money from it but never noticed till now.

jor el

amcalester wrote: »

As for the money having been taken out of the joint account, Vodafone are a member of the Direct Debit Plus scheme which means that they can set up a paperless direct debit (ie no direct debit mandate is signed by the customer, bank details can be taken over the phone) on any bank account.

They would have to know the bank account number first though, which they apparently didn't.

Halfdog

I have been following this thread from the beginning, I hate the this type of carry on by by these big bulleys, They know its a genuine cock up with a loyal bill paying customer of several years. FFS Kenya, :rolleyes:

Phone gets robbed, she gets spooked, leaves Vodafone, joins meteor her BF, kids follow because they offer free meteor to meteor. At the end of the day they will be the real losers.

GerardKeating

Walkman wrote: »

The issue is how the monies were deducted from another account not named on the Vodafone account and that is to be taken up with the bank not Vodafone

And many other times, people compain that the bank bounced a DD due to lack of funds in the current account when there was eneough funds in the savings account.

Some one in the thought they were being helpful and it went wrong.

gogo

amcalester wrote: »

The reason the Bank refunded the money is that under the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme they are obliged to refund the money in any disputed direct debit pending the outcome of an investigation.

If after their investigation it turns out that Vodefone had the proper authorisation the Bank will come looking for the money from the account holder. The bank will not be interested in any agreement between account holder and Vodafone about paying half of the bill.

As for the money having been taken out of the joint account, Vodafone are a member of the Direct Debit Plus scheme which means that they can set up a paperless direct debit (ie no direct debit mandate is signed by the customer, bank details can be taken over the phone) on any bank account.

I have worked for an Irish bank in the Direct Debit department and it couldn't happen that we would apply a direct debit to any other account apart from the account number in the file sent by Vodafones bank. (We had a very new system in place so maybe others banks had a different set up)

Are you sure that Vodafone were not given the bank details by accident? You'd be surprised how many times people gave joint account numbers instead of single account number (and vice versa) to companies.

And 1 other thing, have them go back through the joint account to see if Vodafone have ever taken a direct debit from that account before, could be they've always taken the money from it but never noticed till now.

Thank god you posted that, I was trying to word it in my head when I cam to your post. I too work for an irish bank and have never seem a direct debit being taken from another linked account. Banks just 'facilitate' direct debit, they can set them up, apply them or cancel them, it pretty much all automated. It woudl be one hell of a job to monitor all direct debits and start choosing what account to take them from.
The bank refunded the money because of the direct debit idemnity scheme not because its admitting any libality on its part. you will find that vodafone presented the direct debit on the joint account in question not the bank. Where they got the account number from is anyones guess, but im guessing that vodafone used what we call 'origplus direct debit', ie, paperless, as mentioned above.

Run_to_da_hills

Halfdog wrote: »

Phone gets robbed, she gets spooked, leaves Vodafone, joins meteor her BF, kids follow because they offer free meteor to meteor. At the end of the day they will be the real losers.

That is exactly what is happening.

Rhymenocerous

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That is exactly what is happening.

And then if it happens with Meteor, they'll do the exact same. As you're contractually obliged to pay all call charges on your bill every month. That's the contract you sign. If you don't like it, then don't sign up to it.

Run_to_da_hills

Rhymenocerous wrote: »

And then if it happens with Meteor, they'll do the exact same. As you're contractually obliged to pay all call charges on your bill every month. That's the contract you sign. If you don't like it, then don't sign up to it.

There is always the pay as you go option.

Jeanious

Im no fan of Vodafone (quite the opposite in fact) but it's fairly decent of them to split the bill, even if they mistakenly took the whole amount.

The real issue i think is who the fcuk does the bank think they are, dipping into another account like that? ffs its upto the customer to sort out their direct debits with the company; god knows the banks charge enough if the DD bounces, so why they messed around with it is beyond me. Id have no hesitation in shutting up shop and changing banks if that ever happened to me, mistake or no mistake.

If the person in question wanted a direct debit from the other account, they would have set it up on the other account.

BnA

From my reading of this thread, there are 2 Seperate Issues here.

1) Vodafone.
Yes, it does seem like fairly bad customer service. But far from the worst I ever heard. Only thing I would say is, you won't get it any better from Meteor. We (small company - 4 phones) left them last year over an almost identical issue. Vodafone were never going to write off the whole 1,200 for you. For us Meteor refused to write off about 500 in a similar situation. To be honest, I thought they possibly wouldn't but that the threat of moving 4 phones would push them. But no, they held their ground. We settled at about 250. They have lost at least that per month off us since because we moved, but that's their own business.

2) The Bank
The second issue here is the bank. It is a day or two since I read the full thread... but Am I right in saying...

You (or your friend or something, basically the customer) signed up for direct debit on Account A
That worked away grand for a while
When this 1200 ammount hit the bank, for some reason, instead of taking the money from account A, they took it from a sererate account in the same bank that the customer held jointly with their partner. This account was never mentioned on any direct debit agreement.

If my summary above is correct, then the main problem you have is with the bank. You should be tearing the door down of the place demanding and explanation for what happened. There is no earthly way that, if a direct debit failed, Vodafone would get onto the bank and ask them to take the money from a different account.

This is completely the banks doing. You should get a written explaination from the bank of exactly what happened.

A very similar thing happened to my mother a few years ago. She always had just 1 joint account with my dad in the bank through which they done all their dealings. A few years ago, my Ma decided to open a seperate account for herself (in the same branch of the same bank) so she could save a few small bits away for her own bits and pieces. Not a bother.

They had a farm loan (with the same bank) which was bing paid off by DD. One month the creamery cheque (money from the creamery for milk collected), which came monthly, was a week late coming and when the direct debit for the loan hit the joint account, the money wasn't there. No bother sez the branch manager, and without so much as a word to either of my parents, he just took the money out of my mothers savings account.

The first she heard of it was when she went into a shop to buy something she had been saving up for a weeks later and her Laser card was declined because of insuffient funds.

Well, all I can say is God help the poor manager. She went into the bank to find out where her money was gone and he told her....... the poor lad..... She lifted him out of it. I met her a few days later and she was still fuming. God knows what she was like when he told her. Having been on the recieving end of her wrath many's a time growing up, I almost had to feel sorry for the guy. She moved her savings to the Credit Union and the farm accounts to another bank and does buggerall in that bank now.

Anyway, back to the OP, from my reading of it, your anger, although justified, is mis-directed. As much and all as you might dislike Vodafone, the bank are the major villians here.

gogo

http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?Itemid=172&id=35&option=com_content&task=view

Dear God, will one of ye read how direct debits work!

A payment to a bank loan is completley different than a direct debit to a company BnA, (and personally I think its a standing order your thinking of not a direct debit). They are two completly different things. Also curious how your mother had a laser card on her savings account?

jor el

gogo wrote: »

A payment to a bank loan is completley different than a direct debit to a company BnA, (and personally I think its a standing order your thinking of not a direct debit).

No, those can be direct debits too, and the banks seem to prefer that these days.

gogo wrote: »

Also curious how your mother had a laser card on her savings account?

That wouldn't be possible. A Laser card is only available on a current account, not savings.

parsi

parsi wrote: »

What did the Guards say when they were informed that Vodafone stole €1200 ?

We still haven't heard what happened when the so-called theft was reported...

BnA

gogo wrote: »

http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?Itemid=172&id=35&option=com_content&task=view

Dear God, will one of ye read how direct debits work!

A payment to a bank loan is completley different than a direct debit to a company BnA, (and personally I think its a standing order your thinking of not a direct debit). They are two completly different things. Also curious how your mother had a laser card on her savings account?

Kerrist on a bike ye are a whingey crowd.

RE Direct Debits and Standing Orders..... What difference does it make to the argument which it was. A Standing Order or Direct Debit that is set up one account should not be paid out of a different account.

RE the laser Card: Again, not that it makes any difference to you but it wasn't a "Savings" account as a bank would know it. The account was a current account that my mother opened for saving a bit of money for herself.

gogo

It makes a big difference, they are two completly different things. direct debit are automated payments, there is not one person sitting there deciding which account they should debit a payment from.
But if you miss a standing order you can call to the bank and change it(account no/ammount/date) re present it any time you want, ie the bank have a means to change the details for you (or for themselves).
The company/originator is the only one who can change the details of a direct debit.
Thats why big companies use direct debits because they have the control over them, but a repayment to a loan is totally different thing to the op's problem and just sounds like bank bashing on your behalf.
Again
http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?Itemid=172&id=35&option=com_content&task=view

gogo

jor el wrote: »

No, those can be direct debits too, and the banks seem to prefer that these days.

Yea I know, I was getting at the fact that repaying a bank loan, and paying a company are two different things, ie, his parents missed a repayment to a loan and the bank decided to look for it elsewhere, fair enough, the bank dosent really care if you miss a phone bill, there not really going to look for another account to pay it from. i just dont understand the revelance of BnA point about bank loans.

BnA

gogo wrote: »

Yea I know, I was getting at the fact that repaying a bank loan, and paying a company are two different things, ie, his parents missed a repayment to a loan and the bank decided to look for it elsewhere, fair enough, the bank dosent really care if you miss a phone bill, there not really going to look for another account to pay it from. i just dont understand the revelance of BnA point about bank loans.

When a direct debit is set up to pay a bill from Account A, should the bank, without contacting the customer, accidently or on purpose, take money from any account other than Account A to pay the direct debit.

No

When a standing order is set up to pay a loan from Account A, should the bank, without contacting the customer, accidently or on purpose, take money from any account other than Account A to pay the direct debit.

No

That is the similarity between direct debits and standing orders that is relevant to the OPs issue.

parsi

So OP - any update on the Guard's investigation of this theft ?

Run_to_da_hills

parsi wrote: »

So OP - any update on the Guard's investigation of this theft ?

The cash was refunded but there is still a dispute over the e1200.