Is nordic Europe the model Ireland should follow?

irish_bob

Yixian wrote: »

I have no idea what it's like working for public services but if you think money defines how enjoyable a job is you're dead wrong and this is one of the reasons countries like Britain are ranked amongst the most unhappy in the developed world, and exactly what Ireland needs to avoid like the plague.

In the end, quality of life is the only thing that matters. GDP, economic growth and all of that are all secondary in importance to quality of life - you want to enjoy working, living and raising a family in a country more than you care whether it's GDP is up 2%. Now, to the extent that GDP is exclusively required to raise QoL, Ireland should do what it can to raise it... and no further, and it should focus on everything else needed to raise QoL, eg..... copy Finland....

All effort should be put into education, health care and transport. Fund the arts as much as you can as festivals, parades, films, theatre, opera, books, video games, TV, exhibitons etc. are a large part of what makes our lives worth living in the developed world, to be quite honest. The other part of what makes us happy, social interaction, also needs direct government support, and by that I mean doing everything you can to reduce racism, sexism, homophobia etc. and encouraging events and interaction between the new immigrant communities, reducing working hours so people can spend more time with their family and friends...

That's what makes a nation great. Crack that and you've found true success as a country.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953

I plan on leaving the UK the very second I finish my degree, and I ofc really want to live in Ireland, so please, don't let ^ happen, or I'll have to start learning suomi.

you sound like my hippy sister

mikemac

According to the OP's article some people in Scandanavia pay 60% tax :eek:

No thanks, I'd prefer to keep our supposed low tax :rolleyes: system.

Especially when I'm reading articles of families living on 3,800 per month from welfare, a lot more then I earn.

Sorry, don't feel any inclinition to pay more then the 41% plus levies and PRSI and benefit in kind and whatever I pay
Cut the billions in waste, only then consider tax rates.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont know how it compares as I was never there

From quick research: they pay even more taxes…

That’s what I thought – I can’t imagine it’s all that cheaper or easier to start a business in Scandinavia than it is here.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

also remember that these countries have a lot more natural resources than Ireland…

They do indeed, but there’s not a whole lot we can do about that, is there?

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Dublin City Council should be sponsoring young talent to go into the empty shops on Graftopn and Henry Street.

There’s no way the chamber of commerce would allow it. Besides, I can’t imagine that empty units on Grafton Street will be empty for very long. There’s no way the owners of any empty premises are going to drop their rent to such an extent when they know that a retailer is prepared to pay more. We may be in a recession, but Grafton St is still lucrative shopping territory.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Run hot houses for young graduates and scientists and pay them so they can experiemnt and invent maybe for 6-12 month prgrammes and not just take the kids that tick the boxes and have 1:1.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s what I thought – I can’t imagine it’s all that cheaper or easier to start a business in Scandinavia than it is here.
They do indeed, but there’s not a whole lot we can do about that, is there?

How about not expecting to run a similar scale welfare state (or is it larger by now?) from tax proceeds on businesses that are leaving the country in the droves due to a wide range of negative factors

EastWallGirl

Yixian wrote: »

Make this girl mayor, nao.

As long as there are no rules about being natural born...


DJP Barry

The Dunnes shop on Grafton Street has been empty for a while...Grafton Street is one of the most overpriced streets in Europe and not only that...most of them are English chain stores. I have nothing against that but I know from teaching overseas students they are obsessed with anything Irish, even Penneys, why is this not harnessed?? If the dublin Chamber of Commerce 'dont like it' then I think we have touched on whar some of the issues are going ot be in this recession 'lets keep the status quo lads'... The media is always saying how well Irish design is received around the world lets showcase it and not just once a year at the RDS.


What I meant about the hot houses is that instead of young graduates or others with an inventive brain leaving let them have the financial freedom to invent for a year, and it should not be limited to to first class honours students as uni does not always suit the inventive mind. As I said we need to check people's garden sheds to see what they are doing how can these ideas be applied.

I am not saying it will be easy, the whole tax system has to be changed and the whole way this country has been run, has to change, conflict of interest issues need to be taken more seriously.

What needs to happen is to calculate what we pay in Ireland in taxes and services paid for in Ireland that are covered by taxes in these countries and make the comparison. I think we would be very suprised as to the value for money that is obtained for the higher taxes in these countries

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Grafton Street is one of the most overpriced streets in Europe…

Rents are high, but they will come down. I can’t see the owners of any premises on Grafton St bringing their rent down so low that the council will be able to take advantage.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

…and not only that...most of them are English chain stores. I have nothing against that but I know from teaching overseas students they are obsessed with anything Irish, even Penneys, why is this not harnessed??

You seem to be advocating protectionism? The reason that Dublin is over-run by foreign chains is because that’s where Dubliners want to shop. If Penneys see an opportunity to expand (hardly a good thing, in my opinion) then I’m sure they will take it.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

What I meant about the hot houses is that instead of young graduates or others with an inventive brain leaving let them have the financial freedom to invent for a year…

So we should throw money at kids in the hope that they might come up with something useful? Where is all this money going to come from?

ei.sdraob

the rents wont come down much as NAMA is gonna make sure theres no pressure on the market

there is a **** load of commercial property thats been empty for years around the country and in prime location, just visit galway for examples (we were discussing that in another thread)


in a proper market so much supply would have pushed rents down

but we are in a distorted market where its cheaper to leave a property sitting empty than try to rent it out

introduction of property tax and getting rid of NAMA would bring a flood of properties on the market and prices would go back down to earth, but that aint gonna happen now

this is perverse

taxpayers taxes will be used to keep the prices up via NAMA, and the high taxes would mean the taxpayers would have to work even harder to afford residential/commercial properties, this in turn forces high prices on other products/services and the rip of ireland continues

sickening

EastWallGirl

I would not say that I am a protectionist, I chose to shop in many British retail chains, but I also take time out to look for independent/individual design, clothing, jewellery etc. What I am saying is that Irish design is very well regarded. As a country we need to look at where we have a reputation and develop it, this is the time now, when costs are coming down and it may just be an opportunity for up an d coming talent.

Food is another area - Australia and New New Zealand export alot of food to the far east and Ireland also has a good reputation for food.

I think people need to see tangible, local attempts to find and replace jobs that have been lost.

I suppose the brainy inventors idea looks a bit random but if people with an idea were offered a years salary (€25-30,000) with patent support just to get in their to have the freedom and time to think and invent.


With this credit crunch/recession there have been 2 choices, shore up the banks or spend money to encourage growth to be ready for the next upswing. A couple of countries have tried to do both to a certain degree (UK, USA, Germany), other countries have had the luxury to pick economic, educational, technological development. Ireland could only afford 1 and has picked the builders and bankers.

When you think of the challenges the world faces in the next 50 years from energy (moving from fossil fuelsl) , food production (the cheap and unhealthy food will have to be eliminated) waste disposal, transport there are a few opportunites for new ideas.

The amount of money being spent on lawyers, accountants, barristers, economists, etc etc on NAMA and people give out about a relatively small amount to explore ways to be creative and productive in real work as opposed to paper shuffling.

There is potential in this country and other small economies have shown that they have successfully tapped their potential and become successful. There is something in the economic model in Ireland that is only working for a few the TD's some in the professional classes, bankers and builders. The majority have to stand up and start asking questions and doing their own research.

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

What I am saying is that Irish design is very well regarded. As a country we need to look at where we have a reputation and develop it, this is the time now, when costs are coming down and it may just be an opportunity for up an d coming talent.

So what are you waiting for? Why don’t you set up a business showcasing Irish designers?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I suppose the brainy inventors idea looks a bit random but if people with an idea were offered a years salary (€25-30,000) with patent support just to get in their to have the freedom and time to think and invent.

If someone has an idea that’s worthy of a patent, why do we need to offer them money to sit around and think about it? Where’s the money going to come from? What sort of return-on-investment will the taxpayer receive? If money’s going to be spent on ‘ideas’, I’d much rather see it spent on third-level research.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

With this credit crunch/recession there have been 2 choices, shore up the banks or spend money to encourage growth to be ready for the next upswing.

What money? We don’t have any!

WinstonSmith

A lot of very silly people here: Couldn't be bothered paying high taxes; economics all that matter, and on the other side kick American MNC's out. Neither option right now is very viable. One must begin with education so that natural indigenous resources can be found and exploited. When that happens then there will be a sufficient income to replace the MNC's and taxes can be gradually raised. Cutting the funding to education as was done recently is completely the wrong way to go. Will anyone disagree with that!?

Yixian

When I say "boot the Americans out" I don't mean literally kick them out of Ireland, I mean try and phase them out wth homegrown industry. For some reason Ireland thought the diaspora would do what they haven't done for any other country on earth and stick with it even when the country became inevitably less competitive..

They are first and foremost capitalists, that what everything boils down to in the world today; profit.

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles", nothing has changed, the CEO can make better money elsewhere and now they're off, not even the most die hard neo-liberal could deny this was coming. When you boil it down it's same cycle wherever you are in the world. The task now is to MAKE things ourselves rather than just skim off the margins of American companies that make things for us.

Science, technology, art; these are the areas Ireland needs to focus. Green energy and video games would be a good start, both classic recession proof industries. You don't even have to care about any of them, they all make money regardless of the economic climate right now. Crytek's having to leave Germany soon, Ireland should have been there to snap them up but instead they'll go to Hungary or Poland. Ditto energy, Ireland is a small enough country to fuel by an almost 50/50 split between nuclear and renewable energy, it should already be on the road to this and preparing to sell that energy back to inflexible markets like the UK.

EastWallGirl

djpbarry wrote: »

So what are you waiting for? Why don’t you set up a business showcasing Irish designers?
If someone has an idea that’s worthy of a patent, why do we need to offer them money to sit around and think about it? Where’s the money going to come from? What sort of return-on-investment will the taxpayer receive? If money’s going to be spent on ‘ideas’, I’d much rather see it spent on third-level research.
What money? We don’t have any!

Maybe I will, I have to make sure I do not step on CCOI toes. I am sure there are few more Orla Kiely's out there.

But if I set up something, am I not just reinventing the wheel? We have Enterprise Ireland and local Enterprise Boards. They need to take more risks, be more experimental.

My point about the hot house, is that you have talented people bouncing ideas off each other, not tired from working 9-5, with facilities and a budget. I also think third level research should also be funded, but not all people with potential are able to do third level research.

You are right we dont have money, because we wrote big cheques to improve liquidity...to get the banks lending and they are hoarding the funds the government wrote cheques for billions.

If you added up PAYE tax, VAT tax, all the vehicle registration charges, extra charges for the school year all the user pays charges, road tolls, private health insurance I wonder what the 'tax rate' would be then?

Compare this figure to the rates in these countries.

Then look at what they get and what the Irish taxpayer gets, compare hospital waiting lists, cost of food, industrial relations (6 weeks leave in Denmark!!). I think we would be asking the government some serious questions.

joseph brand

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I'd get cracking on learning suomi or finnish. Fyi France has less working hours than Britain yet is more productive overall, so I've heard. Some research has shown that people can only really apply themselves for four hours at a time, the rest in spent coasting with diminishing returns.

people used to work 14 hrs per/day in the 19th century.Bread and margarine was the mainstay with a cup of dirty tea. You were almost worked to death, via the workhouse idea. Novel approach to elderly.
Now, the 8hr day was introduced due to the Industrial Revolution, ie. with the help of machines, people could work less hours, but achieve same output, or more, with help of tools.

In Tressell's novel, 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists', he calls for a 4 hour working day, to allow employees to have leisure time, to pursue hobbies and grow mentally. (just like the employers). He believed it was possible due to the invention of the machine. But as you well know, it will always be a tug-of-war between the workers and the 'fat cats'.

Crude Example: 10 men produce 100 products/ day. (8 hours)
10 men and 2 tools produce 200 products/day. (8 hours)

Now, halve the working day, and they still produce 100 products/ day.

I know its wishful thinking.

Also big up to Havok, the video games developer started here in Trinity College with offices around the world. Just an example of a home grown company [With world leading expertise in physics, animation and tools,]

joseph brand

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Eamonn

You are absolutley right and I just had a shudder thinking about a certain Fianna fail councillor in Meath East, who obviosusly took political inspiration form the dad in Muriel's Wedding.

The thing is if you give it half a minute's thought this parish pump style of politics does not work, for example:I imagine broadband penetration in these countries is better then in Ireland. These countries are very proud of their rural culture and so should Ireland, in fact I am stunned how it is not marketed more.

Definitely any alter built to Friedman, Thatcher and Regan needs tearing down. People need to understand that Education, Health and Transport are not industries where there is naturally profit, that it needs investment and the payback can not just be measured economically, socio-economically etc. Trying to privatise and profitise everything does not work.

People need to be encouraged to start inventing in their shed and the likes of Enterprise Ireland and the Enterprise Boards need to be far more approachable. Even seminars around the country as to where they think the next big idea might be, would be a start.

Look at the high school kids who have a way to cure ringing ears via a download, how clever are they? There are more ideas out there.

There must be a way to re-educate people about how society should work. The BS has to be put aside and we have to start again with co-operative banks, make the civil service enjoyable, challenging and rewarding place to work in and start looking for the next bunch of good ideas.

Anyone have a link for this idea for ears?? Cheers.

ChocolateSauce

There is a lot to be said for the Nordic model...but I have some concerns regarding economic freedom. I also think that we wouldn't be able to do it. Better to move to Norway.

In Norway, road tax and car insurance is included in the price of petrol, meaning that every car is always insured and taxed, and you only pay insurance and tax based on how much you drive. This kind of thinking is magical.

ei.sdraob

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for the Nordic model...but I have some concerns regarding economic freedom. I also think that we wouldn't be able to do it. Better to move to Norway.

In Norway, road tax and car insurance is included in the price of petrol, meaning that every car is always insured and taxed, and you only pay insurance and tax based on how much you drive. This kind of thinking is magical.

that sort of system is too simple to comprehend

it would never work here

Yixian

ei.sdraob wrote: »

that sort of system is too simple to comprehend

it would never work here

If Labour and SF would get over their pathetic civil war feuding and form a united left coalition, they'd pull a good few left-leaning FFers - that, maybe including the greens, as opposition to Fine Gael, would stand a good chance of winning the next election I'm sure if it proposed the nordic model. It's not that the Irish don't want it, they're just too cynical to believe it can happen in Ireland, but with a strong credible party proposing it as a future for Ireland post-recession, I reckon the tide might start to turn.

ei.sdraob

Yixian wrote: »

If Labour and SF would get over their pathetic civil war feuding and form a united left coalition, they'd pull a good few left-leaning FFers - that, maybe including the greens, as opposition to Fine Gael, would stand a good chance of winning the next election I'm sure if it proposed the nordic model. It's not that the Irish don't want it, they're just too cynical to believe it can happen in Ireland, but with a strong credible party proposing it as a future for Ireland post-recession, I reckon the tide might start to turn.

anyone that gets dirtied by SF would not get my vote

labour can stand on their own feet without getting involved with that questionable crowd

Yixian

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyone that gets dirtied by SF would not get my vote

labour can stand on their own feet without getting involved with that questionable crowd

^ This is the problem. All this "waah waah I don'r want to play with SF!" nonsense is the only reason there isn't a left coalition in Ireland and the only reason an FG-ruined future seems inevitable atm. Forget their past, look at their policies.

Labour has the right intentions but is completely spineless, they can't stand up on their own for 5 minutes without pandering to the right. SF and the Socialist Party is just the kind of backbone they need and Labour just the kind of sensibility SF and the Socialist Party need to turn their idealism into practical politics.

About 1/10 people will vote SF in the next election, probably - about 2.5/10 people will vote Labour. Far less will vote Socialist Party and Greens but all 4 together, if they can start to find compromises, stand a real chance of getting into a positions in Irish politics where they can actually make a difference.

As it stands all they will be for the next 15 years is a bunch of political commentators whining about the big boys from the sidelines.

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

But if I set up something, am I not just reinventing the wheel?

But you’ve just been arguing that there’s potential business in showcasing young Irish designers?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

My point about the hot house, is that you have talented people bouncing ideas off each other, not tired from working 9-5, with facilities and a budget.

How many businesses around the world began life in a “hot house”?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I also think third level research should also be funded, but not all people with potential are able to do third level research.

So how will the selection process work for your “hot house”? How do you decide who is “talented” and who isn’t?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

If you added up PAYE tax, VAT tax, all the vehicle registration charges, extra charges for the school year all the user pays charges, road tolls, private health insurance I wonder what the 'tax rate' would be then?

Compare this figure to the rates in these countries.

As of 2007, Ireland had one of the lowest tax-to-GDP ratios in the EU:

Country/Region|Tax-to-GDP (%)
Ireland|31.2
UK|36.3
EU|37.5
Finland|43.0
Norway|43.6
Sweden|48.3
Denmark|48.7

irish_bob

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for the Nordic model...but I have some concerns regarding economic freedom. I also think that we wouldn't be able to do it. Better to move to Norway.

In Norway, road tax and car insurance is included in the price of petrol, meaning that every car is always insured and taxed, and you only pay insurance and tax based on how much you drive. This kind of thinking is magical.

fantastic idea to include road tax in the price of petrol , our road tax system is designed so as to provide as much employment as possible to civil servant administrators so i cant see us adopting that sensible idea

irish_bob

Yixian wrote: »

If Labour and SF would get over their pathetic civil war feuding and form a united left coalition, they'd pull a good few left-leaning FFers - that, maybe including the greens, as opposition to Fine Gael, would stand a good chance of winning the next election I'm sure if it proposed the nordic model. It's not that the Irish don't want it, they're just too cynical to believe it can happen in Ireland, but with a strong credible party proposing it as a future for Ireland post-recession, I reckon the tide might start to turn.

you obviously have no perception of how middle ireland think if you believe a coalition of labour and sinn fein could form a goverment without either FF or FG , its a mistake to base the politics of the people of ireland on the media in ireland

Yixian

irish_bob wrote: »

you obviously have no perception of how middle ireland think if you believe a coalition of labour and sinn fein could form a goverment without either FF or FG , its a mistake to base the politics of the people of ireland on the media in ireland

Labour, SF, Socialist Party and FF left leaners. Based on pure numbers there's a chance it'd work, but you're right I really don't know if people would actually go for it, I just hope they would..

See I live in britain where there is no alternative on the left. Ireland does have a credible left wing alternative in Labour but I'm not sure it can get the numbers on it's own.

irish_bob

Yixian wrote: »

Labour, SF, Socialist Party and FF left leaners. Based on pure numbers there's a chance it'd work, but you're right I really don't know if people would actually go for it, I just hope they would..

See I live in britain where there is no alternative on the left. Ireland does have a credible left wing alternative in Labour but I'm not sure it can get the numbers on it's own.

in ireland thier isnt a single right wing party , thier are several left wing political entitys , add to this , the media here is main left wing , despite all this , the irish people for the most part dont want socilism , that said , they dont want true conservatism either , we are a funny bunch indeed and much too cynical to adopt the nordic model , over there both politicans and public sector workers in general have a sense of duty to state , here they have a sense of entitlement , over there , people feel happy about paying high taxes in return for good services , here we feel happy about getting as many freebies as we can in return for nothing and i include work in many cases

EastWallGirl

Joseph Brand

Here is the RTE link, it is at the top:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0802/6news_av.html?2589001,null,230

EastWallGirl

djpbarry wrote: »

But you’ve just been arguing that there’s potential business in showcasing young Irish designers?
How many businesses around the world began life in a “hot house”?
So how will the selection process work for your “hot house”? How do you decide who is “talented” and who isn’t?
As of 2007, Ireland had one of the lowest tax-to-GDP ratios in the EU:

Country/Region|Tax-to-GDP (%)
Ireland|31.2
UK|36.3
EU|37.5
Finland|43.0
Norway|43.6
Sweden|48.3
Denmark|48.7

Thanks for your continued interest!!

I do think their is potential, but I am also arguing that the government bodies that are menat to be in place for enterprise need to be a bit more avant garde, they can be a bit conservative and not think out of the box, and I am saying this who has worked within the area.

I am not saying businesses per se, but there are alot of challenges in the next 50 years and the economy in Ireland as it is will casue a brain drain, I am suggesting ways to keep people to stay and to keep motivated. I have not through the selection process, I am just brainstorming.

I would imagine those figures are incorrect as it would not include user pay costs such as VHI, bin collection, tolls and the car insurance example as above. It aslo does not measure what those countries with high % get that we dont. For example child care in these countries is free or a low price, families are certainly not paying a mortgage a month for child care (which is the economic reality in Ireland). It also would not include the 6 weeks annual leave and the excellent maternity and paternity leave that is available.

There is now 2nd home charges (fair I think), and in the next two years there will be council tax and water rates are going to be a reality for most of us.

So when you think of it like that what is our tax rate? And are we getting value for money?

As I said in the opening post the countries have the same things we do, big civil service, generous social wlefare wealso do have some good industry as they do, our main difference was the lack of banking regulation as we followed the US and UK models, but I do not think that works for such a small population base and we have to look at countries with a similiar population base and challenges.

irish_bob

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Thanks for your continued interest!!

I do think their is potential, but I am also arguing that the government bodies that are menat to be in place for enterprise need to be a bit more avant garde, they can be a bit conservative and not think out of the box, and I am saying this who has worked within the area.

I am not saying businesses per se, but there are alot of challenges in the next 50 years and the economy in Ireland as it is will casue a brain drain, I am suggesting ways to keep people to stay and to keep motivated. I have not through the selection process, I am just brainstorming.

I would imagine those figures are incorrect as it would not include user pay costs such as VHI, bin collection, tolls and the car insurance example as above. It aslo does not measure what those countries with high % get that we dont. For example child care in these countries is free or a low price, families are certainly not paying a mortgage a month for child care (which is the economic reality in Ireland). It also would not include the 6 weeks annual leave and the excellent maternity and paternity leave that is available.

There is now 2nd home charges (fair I think), and in the next two years there will be council tax and water rates are going to be a reality for most of us.

So when you think of it like that what is our tax rate? And are we getting value for money?

As I said in the opening post the countries have the same things we do, big civil service, generous social wlefare wealso do have some good industry as they do, our main difference was the lack of banking regulation as we followed the US and UK models, but I do not think that works for such a small population base and we have to look at countries with a similiar population base and challenges.

i too think 2nd home charges are fair and resonable btw , i untill a few weeks ago owned an appartment in budapest , was an idiot to ever have looked at it but thats beside the point , i could not complain if the goverment slapped a tax on my for owning this overseas joint

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

Country/Region|Tax-to-GDP (%)
Ireland|31.2
UK|36.3
EU|37.5
Finland|43.0
Norway|43.6
Sweden|48.3
Denmark|48.7

Theres Lies, Damned Lies and then there is statistics.

Can you please provide the source for further research and date? let me explain and backup my thesis in meantime:


1. GDP is a very much manipulated figure, for example the government borrows a **** load of money (as they are doing now) and GDP goes up, see here for an explanation on how GDP stats are abused also despite all the borrowing GDP of Ireland is still collapsing, also this article from 2004 is very interesting

Another measure, Gross National Income, accounts for these flows in and out of the country. For many countries, the flows tend to balance out, leaving little difference between GDP and GNI. But not so for Ireland, as outflows of profits and income, largely from global business giants located there, often exceed income flows back into the country. This means that in a GNI ranking, rather than being in the top five, Ireland drops to 17th. In other words, while Ireland produces a lot of income per inhabitant, GNI shows that less of it stays in the country than GDP might suggest. Japan’s GNI rank, in contrast, is a little higher than it is for GDP, at 13th, reflecting the effect of strong net financial inflows from firms and workers based abroad.

2. i bet the figure does not include all the stealth taxes :cool: like the corporation tax surcharge, tax intake is collapsing too



you propose to tax the heck out of the remaining business and taxpayers in this country during a very bad time

while increasing welfare! if anything it should be cut along with bloated public sector, the country can not continue to borrow money indefinitely

your tax them more proposal is incredibly shortsighted

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I would imagine those figures are incorrect as it would not include user pay costs such as VHI, bin collection, tolls and the car insurance example as above.

I don’t really know what you mean? It’s the ratio of total tax revenue to estimated GDP.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

And are we getting value for money?

Well that’s a separate argument really. I’m not sure how we’d go about comparing value-for-money in Ireland to other countries.