Martin Ferris in the Irish Times

dlofnep

irishgrover wrote: »

maybe if the farmer in question was charged with murder, but then all the witnesses refused to testify after friendly visits from members of the IFA, which coincidentally happened at a time when the guilty party agreed to manslaughter, then you might have more of a point...

Neither were convicted of murder. Many people have claimed that both incidents were murder. There should be a clear cut line for what we can classify as murder and what we can't.

If it's OK to classify anything as murder, by virtue of it automatically being accepted as opinion without stating so, (and saving boards.ie libel court cases) - then by all means, I would love to see the rule passed. But it was not, and that is my problem. You cannot pick and choose when to ban and when not to ban for 2 people breaking the exact same rule. That is categorical evidence of biased moderating.

In any case, I've said all I needed to say in this thread. I'm not here to defend the killers of Jerry McCabe. Quite frankly, I think the whole fiasco has tarnished the Republican name and I don't think there is an onus on us to defend all Republicans, just because they are Republican.

oscarBravo

dlofnep, stop discussing moderator actions (or lack thereof) in this thread. You know the rules.

dlofnep

No probs.

Liam Byrne

Hold on a sec, dlofnep!

That's VERY selective quoting and interpretation!

1) the High Court and the Supreme Court decide that the GFA states that Good Friday Agreement allows for a policy choice which was entirely within the discretion of the executive to make.

And the excutive [the Government] has consistently maintained that the prisoners do not qualify for release under the Good Friday Agreement, and that remains our position.

Basically, the GFA allows for the discretionary application, and the Govt says no - no discretion.

Ergo, they DID NOT QUALIFY even under the GFA's "discretionary" application.

2) Why did you not quote this part :

It quickly became clear that although Sinn Féin and the IRA were in a position to choose to move on decommissioning and end paramilitary activity, they refused to do so while some of their members remained behind bars.

i.e. they were trying to hold the country to ransom;

Or this

The Government has contested the contrary view in the courts, including the Supreme Court, and has won in the latter court, as Deputy Jim O’Keeffe acknowledged. If the prisoners had qualified under the terms of the Agreement, they would not still be in jail. The basis of the Supreme Court decision has been the subject of gross and deliberately dishonest misrepresentation by senior Sinn Féin figures in recent days.

Why didn't you quote those parts ? Maybe because they spell out the facts ?

dlofnep wrote:

In any case, the point he was trying to illustrate was that they had served their time that was given to them by the court.

And he should have done so without the weasel words. "They've served their time - let them move on" is fairly OK (despite the fact that we unfortunately didn't have the new legislation to handle intimidation, and so even THAT time was already massively reduced) but squeezing in his biased and blatantly incorrect view just emphasises that he doesn't want to live in the same world as the rest of us want, where Gardai are on the streets and murderers in jail.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Neither were convicted of murder. Many people have claimed that both incidents were murder. There should be a clear cut line for what we can classify as murder and what we can't.

If it's OK to classify anything as murder, by virtue of it automatically being accepted as opinion without stating so, (and saving boards.ie libel court cases) - then by all means, I would love to see the rule passed. But it was not, and that is my problem. You cannot pick and choose when to ban and when not to ban for 2 people breaking the exact same rule. That is categorical evidence of biased moderating.

In any case, I've said all I needed to say in this thread. I'm not here to defend the killers of Jerry McCabe. Quite frankly, I think the whole fiasco has tarnished the Republican name and I don't think there is an onus on us to defend all Republicans, just because they are Republican.

did you not make the exact opposite arguement on the Aidan McAnespie thread?

Liam Byrne

Fratton Fred wrote: »

did you not make the exact opposite arguement on the Aidan McAnespie thread?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61355763&postcount=19

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

did you not make the exact opposite arguement on the Aidan McAnespie thread?

No I did not. I felt that Aidan was murdered, but it is entirely my opinion. Like I said - I would be more than happy to see a rule passed where we can automatically have everything automatically classified as opinion, to avoid these issues.

Secondly, I pointed out why the British system of Law was severely flawed when it came to convicting British soldiers, and evidenced where it occurred on numerous occasions

My initial gripe was due to an original decision, that seemingly is applied at random. OB doesn't wish us to discuss moderating any further in this thread, so I can't. I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you in a message.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61355763&postcount=19

Thank you, you've saved me searching for me. My opening line was:

This thread is about a possible cold-blooded murder

I do not clarify it as fact, it is my opinion. The views shared in these threads however have stated something to be fact. That's the difference and my entire argument.

I feel Aidan was murdered, along with many other issues. You no doubt feel that Jerry was murdered, and you should express those views - but only as "opinion".

dlofnep

I really don't want to take this thread off-topic any further. Could both of you please message me or leave and comment and I will discuss it with you.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

I feel Aidan was murdered, along with many other issues. You no doubt feel that Jerry was murdered, and you should express those views - but only as "opinion".

The thugs that shot McCabe are murderers, that's my opinion. Happy now ?

However, for someone who's so adamant on clarifications between "fact" and "opinion", this is a serious own goal:

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it was not of his OPINION that they should be released - it was FACT that they were ENTITLED to be released under the GFA.

I'll repeat that (as posted, no edits from me) :

dlofnep wrote: »

it was FACT that they were ENTITLED to be released under the GFA.

Capital letters and all, despite being a direct contradiction to the Supreme Court and the Minister for Justice, who specifically referred to the "deliberately dishonest misrepresentation by senior Sinn Féin figures" in trying to suggest that they DID qualify.

After that, dlofnep, I'm DEFINITELY calling these scum murderers; hell, I'll even start putting it in capitals and saying that it's a FACT, rather than just referring to them that way in posts that are "my opinion".

If you're going to back-pedal on the way out, please do so gracefully before you hang yourself with further inconsistencies.

dlofnep

I am not backpeddling from anything. The GFA categorically stated: "Conditional early release within two years of paramilitary prisoners belonging to organisations observing a ceasefire."

Secondly, you can calm your tone fairly lively with me. I don't care who you call scumbags or murderers. You're well entitled to your opinion. I'm not here to defend the killers of Jerry McCabe, so relax the whole personal gripe.

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

You no doubt feel that Jerry was murdered, and you should express those views - but only as "opinion".

What we can say with absolute certainty is that Jerry McCabe’s car was pumped full of bullets while he was sitting inside it. The fact that a representative of a certain political party felt it necessary to “welcome” the perpetrators of this crime back into our society is just another in a long list of reasons why said political party will never command the respect of the vast majority of people in this country.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

What we can say with absolute certainty is that Jerry McCabe’s car was pumped full of bullets while he was sitting inside it. The fact that a representative of a certain political party felt it necessary to “welcome” the perpetrators of this crime back into our society is just another in a long list of reasons why said political party will never command the respect of the vast majority of people in this country.

I'm not disputing that it's a serious issue affecting the voting demographic, nor am I disputing the events of the day. I take onboard everything you have to say.

I am on a personal level, not attending any welcoming home parties. That is my prerogative. Other activists are entitled to theirs.

dave-higgz

I think this has finally finished any chance of Fine Gael going into co-alition with Sinn Féin

spank_inferno

dave-higgz wrote: »

I think this has finally finished any chance of Fine Gael going into co-alition with Sinn Féin

I think the same can be said for any political party now.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

I am not backpeddling from anything. The GFA categorically stated: "Conditional early release within two years of paramilitary prisoners belonging to organisations observing a ceasefire."

What the GFA stated - "categorically" or otherwise - and how OUR courts and OUR Minister for Justice interpreted and applied it are two separate issues. The clue may even be in the word "Conditional", which might well equate back to "a policy choice which was entirely within the discretion of the executive to make".

They made the decision : they did NOT qualify.

So the FACT is that they did not qualify. That's NOT an "opinion".

And I wasn't getting personal, per se; just asking you to stop complaining if someone else states opinion as fact (or simply doesn't clarify which it is) while you seem perfectly happy to EXPLICITLY claim that YOUR opinion is FACT, to the point of using the word "FACT" and putting it in capitals.

I'll re-issue the direct quote from the Minister for Justice:

If the prisoners had qualified under the terms of the Agreement, they would not still be in jail.

nuac

Dlofnep mentioned welcoming home parties.

Any person or political party holding a welcoming home party for these murderers has no regard for this state or it's institutions, nor for the McCabe family.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote: »

They were convicted of manslaughter, yes. But I think in the eyes of any right-thinking member of society

Are you stating that the three judges are wrong-thinking members of society

Spiritoftheseventies

spank_inferno wrote: »

I think the same can be said for any political party now.

Well they have said they would not go into power with them long before this.

Liam Byrne

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you stating that the three judges are wrong-thinking members of society

Remind me again why the new legislation was brought in last week, so that proper convictions could be made against those who not only commit crimes, but also intimidate witnesses....

Why was this required ?
Were the judges who let off the gang members and scum prior to this legislation "wrong-thinking" too, or did they just have their hands tied by the differential between what they could "prove" and what was known ?

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you stating that the three judges are wrong-thinking members of society

Are you under the illusion that the judges had the option of convicting the men of charges the DPP didn't bring?

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Remind me again why the new legislation was brought in last week, so that proper convictions could be made against those who not only commit crimes, but also intimidate witnesses....

Why was this required ?
Were the judges who let off the gang members and scum prior to this legislation "wrong-thinking" too, or did they just have their hands tied by the differential between what they could "prove" and what was known ?

Should we go there about the Criminal Justice bill. Wasn't properly debated in my opinion. They could have introduced this bill ages ago but typically its left right until the nearly the last day of the dail session. And three or four amendments were guillotined as well. Thats not democracy.

Liam Byrne

bayviewclose wrote: »

Should we go there about the Criminal Justice bill. Wasn't properly debated in my opinion. They could have introduced this bill ages ago but typically its left right until the nearly the last day of the dail session. And three or four amendments were guillotined as well. Thats not democracy.

I'm no expert, and yes, there are probably parts of the bill that aren't perfect.

But the FACT of the matter is, something like it was required; intimidation of witnesses has been going on since that day in Adare, and has extended to other criminals.

Is it "the perfect" solution ? Probably not.

Of course, the perfect solution would be if people didn't run around village streets with AK47s, didn't intimidate people, weren't excused and condoned by people in power, and weren't let out to repeat it.

But I'd prefer to have SOMETHING in place so that law-abiding citizens had nothing to worry about.

I always laugh when I hear a news report say "he was known to Gardai"......if I got shot or stabbed, or somehow got caught up in a brawl, I can't imagine them using that phrase.

If someone wants to live in our society - IN THIS COUNTRY - let them accept the democratic rules. If someone doesn't want to accept those, particularly the serious ones like armed robbery, murder, intimidation etc that are dragging the quality of life for millions into the gutter, then let the full rigours of every possible law be applied to get them off the streets.

And let the TDs be seen to SUPPORT the law, not circumvent it by having their photos taken with criminals and welcoming them home.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm no expert, and yes, there are probably parts of the bill that aren't perfect.

But the FACT of the matter is, something like it was required; intimidation of witnesses has been going on since that day in Adare, and has extended to other criminals.

Is it "the perfect" solution ? Probably not.

Of course, the perfect solution would be if people didn't run around village streets with AK47s, didn't intimidate people, weren't excused and condoned by people in power, and weren't let out to repeat it.

But I'd prefer to have SOMETHING in place so that law-abiding citizens had nothing to worry about.

I always laugh when I hear a news report say "he was known to Gardai"......if I got shot or stabbed, or somehow got caught up in a brawl, I can't imagine them using that phrase.

If someone wants to live in our society - IN THIS COUNTRY - let them accept the democratic rules. If someone doesn't want to accept those, particularly the serious ones like armed robbery, murder, intimidation etc that are dragging the quality of life for millions into the gutter, then let the full rigours of every possible law be applied to get them off the streets.

And let the TDs be seen to SUPPORT the law, not circumvent it by having their photos taken with criminals and welcoming them home.

Yes i suppose there was always a chance that it was going to happen. And shows that Sinn Fein have not totally shed their links with the past. Will be interesting to see how Photo effects their vote down south in next elections. Know they made a point about having people on the councils but DAIL seats are a different thing altogether.

LookingFor

An utter, utter disgrace.

I can't believe I was considering giving SF a third or fourth preference in the local/euro elections. I'm glad I finally didn't, but their image had been slightly softening in my mind, and I think in the minds of many people. Stuff like this just wakes me back up.

c montgomery

LookingFor wrote: »

An utter, utter disgrace.

I can't believe I was considering giving SF a third or fourth preference in the local/euro elections. I'm glad I finally didn't, but their image had been slightly softening in my mind, and I think in the minds of many people. Stuff like this just wakes me back up.

Sinn Fein are a party full of gun runners and murders who are mainly supported by scumbags. They havent a clue how to run a country so why anyone would vote for them is beyond me.

Its a pity it takes Ferris doing something as stupid as this to highlight how low and disgusting this party really is.

Liam Byrne

c montgomery wrote: »

Sinn Fein are a party full of gun runners and murders who are mainly supported by scumbags. They havent a clue how to run a country so why anyone would vote for them is beyond me.

Its a pity it takes Ferris doing something as stupid as this to highlight how low and disgusting this party really is.

In fairness, we are continually being asked by SF to move on; so we do try.

But seeing stuff like this puts us back to square one, and also makes us feel stupid and naieve for even starting to give them the benefit of the doubt.

bernardo mac

Have often tried to "discuss"politics with Sinn Feiners and their friends.Gave up!But have voted for one in local election,a genuine fellow.However,generally,the narrow mindedness and tunnel vision of many ultra nationalists/republicans is decidedly non productive.They are not making healthy political progress

c montgomery

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In fairness, we are continually being asked by SF to move on; so we do try.

But seeing stuff like this puts us back to square one, and also makes us feel stupid and naieve for even starting to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Do you mean seeing things that many people think written in blank and white.

barryfield

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Fair point; similar to Irish people in the U.S. voting for Barack Obama, or Irish people living in Dubai voting for Abbai Dubbai.

They can vote for whoever they want. Their choice.

But he's (a) irrelevant to me and (b) represents opinions, biases and prejudices that I disagree with.

So because he's not in "this country", I can ignore him.

of course seen you are from that great British town of limerick you will be confused , its in your genes , you are probably the descendant of some tan squadie .