Martin Ferris in the Irish Times

tororosso

Het-Field wrote: »

How can they look for a society of anything politically ? Remember when Michael McDowell turned Adams into a bumbling fool on the Junior Leaders debate in 2007 ?

I know McDowell is gone, and lost an election that a man in his position shouldnt have lost. But he exposed Adams and the Shinners as political nitwits

Yeah because his parties obsession with attacking Sinn Fein regardless of what the topic being discussed actually was really had Sinn Fein running scared:rolleyes: His personal fixation on Sinn Fein actually did him no favours and hardly won him any debates. His tunnel vision only caused problems up in the north such as saying the Shinners shouldnt be allowed in government in the Republic when the Process was pushing them in with the Unionists in the Northern Assembly!

Liam Byrne

tororosso wrote: »

......saying the Shinners shouldnt be allowed in government in the Republic when the Process was pushing them in with the Unionists in the Northern Assembly!

The people of the North voted en masse for the extremists on both sides. So there was little choice.

Down here, we certainly vote for some scheisters and con-men, but we don't vote for murderers.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The people of the North voted en masse for the extremists on both sides. So there was little choice.

Sinn Féin and the DUP are parties with two diametrically opposed ideologies. It's still hypocritical to suggest that Sinn Féin should be working with such a party and then say they have no place in the Republic's government.

Down here, we certainly vote for some scheisters and con-men, but we don't vote for murderers.

Yes, other parties might be morally corrupt and criminals, but since it's not murder*, it makes it better.

Some moral double standards there.

*Are you saying Sinn Féin are murderers again? That's libellous and slanderous, is it not? Unless you have proof I suppose.

tororosso

The PDs got less votes than Sinn Fein. The PDs were in government on their tiny share of the vote. Regardless of what you think of Sinn Fein or what names you llike to give them there are plenty of people who vote for them. The point being made was the double standard that he thought it was ok for the unionists (who strongly dislike Sinn Fein) to have to go into government with them but the parties down here shouldnt allow Sinn Fein to be in government. It hardly helped the debate as unionists such as Jeffrey Donaldson then highlighted it as a double standard to attempt to slow down the process of forming an Assembly.

oscarBravo

DoireNod wrote: »

Yes, other parties might be morally corrupt and criminals, but since it's not murder*, it makes it better.

Some moral double standards there.

Eh, no. I wouldn't vote for a shyster or a con-man, so I'm definitely not voting for someone who tacitly condones murder.

*Are you saying Sinn Féin are murderers again? That's libellous and slanderous, is it not? Unless you have proof I suppose.

Martin Ferris is a convicted gun-runner. I would imagine he had some idea what the guns and explosives he was trying to import would be used for. He obviously empathises with the killers of gardaí.

I wouldn't call him a murderer, but it's equally clear we share almost nothing in terms of moral standards.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

Sinn Féin and the DUP are parties with two diametrically opposed ideologies. It's still hypocritical to suggest that Sinn Féin should be working with such a party and then say they have no place in the Republic's government.

No - that's PRECISELY WHY it's NOT hypocritical. And why there's "power-sharing" instead of a proper, democratically elected government.

Down here, we expect mature people to sit down and work out their differences in a reasonable manner for the good of the country; we don't say "he's a Catholic, so I'd rather set fire to his house and kids than talk to him", or "he's a Protestant, I'd sooner shoot him than go for a pint with him"; or "we murdered a few of you guys, but it was a mistake and the cops didn't act on the warning, while you are completely and directly responsible for the ones of ours that you murdered and it was collusion". Childish, blinkered bull**** of the highest order.

Would SF object if an elected member of the DUP went to visit a thug in jail, and was pictured collecting him on his release ?

DoireNod wrote: »

Yes, other parties might be morally corrupt and criminals, but since it's not murder*, it makes it better

Absolutely. Still objectionable, mind, but you can check out my comments about FF in other threads if you want to grasp at straws.

DoireNod wrote: »

Some moral double standards there.

Definitely not. Name one crime worse than murder ? Is hitting someone a thump as bad as murder ? Is robbing them as bad as murder ?

If so, why don't those crimes have the same sentences ?

DoireNod wrote: »

*Are you saying Sinn Féin are murderers again? That's libellous and slanderous, is it not? Unless you have proof I suppose.

Sinn Fein as a group ? No. Show me where I said that they were ?

I said "we don't vote for murderers". People in the north did - murderers from both sides. Down here, in this country, we don't.

So again, stop grasping at straws and trying to put objectionable slants on my post. SF [ as a group ] are not murderers, but they have some among their members.

Other parties have objectionable members as well.

But the FACT is that SF defend the worst types of crimes, and condone it when SOME of their members commit them; they also go to visit them in prison for photo-ops and collect them - instead of disowning them for their despicable crimes.

All 100% fact, so less of the spin and bull****, please.

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

democracy for ya, here criminals get to form a political party :mad:

We are not talking about Fianna Fail now. Sorry your on the wrong thread. Ray Burke was never mentioned. Neither was michael Lowry for that matter!

smokingman wrote: »

From what I can see, you're spot on there - the Republic has never been a concern or anything important for them, just the UK.

Is this an opinion or just lack of understanding for what you are being critical of. Jesus surly you cant be that blind that you cannot see an all ireland 32 county was and always has been there primary goal.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Do you? If a TD collected a rapist from prison after he'd served his sentence, would you shrug and say "that was insensitive, but let's move on"?

Thankfully there's a solid core of good citizens who are so repulsed at the idea of their elected representative being supporting of the murderers of gardaí that nothing would ever compel them to vote for them.

I know it suits you to pretend that this isn't the case, but: as long as tacitly condoning the murder of police officers is party policy, the party stays on the fringe. If they want to go mainstream, they'll have to distance themselves from the murderers. Martin Ferris is judged the way I imagine; just not by you and the minority who think they way you do. Thankfully there's no one like him in my area.

i never said I condoned the murder of any police officer but i like the man he has never done anything on me and I wish i had someone like him in my area. Airbrush it but he does the work on the ground. Surly you dont think that the reason he got into office is because everyone in north kerry is shinners. More likely they are happy with what he has done! and as his daughter has proved they are still happy so really "Minority" only applies to the whole of ireland but then again they are an all ireland party.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Yes i'm sure the top brass spend their day reading boards, After Hours in particular would be hugely beneficial to them.

Not at all. If they did we might end up with a true representation of society!

ei.sdraob wrote: »

theres a difference between robbers (FF and property/banking cartels) and murderers (SF and their mafia like ops)

Jesus man a bit of proof with your triffle perhaps!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Served their debt? Ten years in cushy accommodation in Castlerea?

Not even close.

See now this is the real problem. You are not angry with them you are actually angry with the justice system but you fail to see that. They served there time. End of story!

bogs wrote: »

Ithink its a new low for Martin Ferris to meet these murderers on their release.

Yes and you have not been following the thread. I think it a new high so whats the difference?



There still is actually no political discussion. Its just tripe. I guarantee you this will do nothing. It will actually do them good.

Liam Byrne

Compare and contrast :

SPEAKING on Monday after the funeral of Kevin McDaid, who was was beaten to death by a loyalist mob in Coleraine on Sunday, 24 May the North’s deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness said:

“I want to commend the courageous and dignified manner with which the McDaid family, and particularly Evelyn McDaid and her sons, have conducted themselves throughout the course of what must have been an extremely difficult and heart breaking time. The loss of a husband and a father will change their lives immensely.

“Kevin’s loss to the community will also be deeply felt. Kevin McDaid was a peacemaker; a contributor, a positive and constructive influence interested only in improving the lives of his neighbours and the community.

“Those within our community who espouse bigotry and sectarianism are the enemies of
the people; they are the enemies of progress and peace. They must be defeated. But in my view they will only be defeated when those in influential positions of political leadership use their undoubted influence by joining in a united approach to rid our society of what is a great evil, the evil of sectarianism.

“I can come to no other conclusion than that there is a serious failure of real political leadership in the Coleraine area. The people of Coleraine deserve better. I believe that we all know what is required. It is essential that the tragic murder of Kevin McDaid is a catalyst to bring all those with influence together in a united campaign against sectarianism. Government, political leaders, the statutory sector, Unions, the churches, the community and voluntary sector, supported by all those of good will must lead the way.”

"The first thing that I want to say is that I sympathise with Garda McCabe`s wife and her entire family. She has undergone a very traumatic ordeal over many years."

Speaking in Dublin, Mr McGuinness said that the four men jailed for the killing of Garda McCabe qualified for release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement.

He said: "It's our view that they should be released but I'm not going to make any comment about what the two Governments may or may not have agreed.

"It is our view that this case needs to be resolved and we are involved with both the British and Irish Governments and are exploring if there is a basis to restore the power sharing in the North."

Personally, I would have just replaced "Kevin McDaid" with "Jerry McCabe", "Evelyn McDaid" with "Ann McCabe", and "Coleraine" with "Limerick" in the first statement and re-issued it.

Two attacks by cowardly scum; both should have evoked the same response from any true statesman.

Spiritoftheseventies

As mentioned before the question is have the released prisoners signed up to the Peace Process. Sinn Fein were probably in a difficult position here. If we take on the SF stance that the armed gang were involved in a war and Sinn Fein then washes their hands of them, Sinn Fein who probably still have to do a lot behind the scenes up north to keep retired Army Council members happy would have been in a difficult position by ignoring them. But it was probably a bit naive for Ferris to meet them at prison. It created a photo opportunity which looked bad

oscarBravo

Joey the lips wrote: »

Ray Burke was never mentioned. Neither was michael Lowry for that matter!

Martin Ferris was. Which of the three is a convicted criminal?

i never said I condoned the murder of any police officer...

I didn't say you did; I said that Martin Ferris does.

...but i like the man he has never done anything on me and I wish i had someone like him in my area. Airbrush it but he does the work on the ground.

I don't care if he single-handedly does all the housework for a quarter of the households in Kerry - he tacitly condones the murder of police officers.

I get it; that's not a problem for you. It is for me. It's a problem for more people than it's not a problem for. You can pretend that being a good local worker makes it OK to tacitly condone the murder of police officers all day, but that's not going to make the majority agree with you.

See now this is the real problem. You are not angry with them you are actually angry with the justice system but you fail to see that. They served there time. End of story!

Oh, believe me, I'm angry with them. I'm none too impressed with the justice system either, although it was left with little choice when witnesses were so scared they would rather do jail time for contempt than testify, but the justice system didn't shoot Jerry McCabe in the back.

There still is actually no political discussion. Its just tripe. I guarantee you this will do nothing. It will actually do them good.

La la la don't want to talk about it la la nothing to see here la la all in the past la la la I'm not listening la la la good local worker la la la...

Of course it's not a problem for a Sinn Féin supporter that one of their TDs is all chummy with cop-killers. I'm sorry it upsets you so much that it's a problem for the rest of us.

Liam Byrne

bayviewclose wrote: »

But it was probably a bit naive for Ferris to meet them at prison. It created a photo opportunity which looked bad

It's not about whether something LOOKS bad; even if there was no photo-opportunity and he had done it, it would have BEEN bad.

Your post is like saying that if no-one had witnessed a rape, the rape is less bad.

Liam Byrne

bayviewclose wrote: »

As mentioned before the question is have the released prisoners signed up to the Peace Process.

I personally don't give a bollox whether they have or not.

I'm more interested in whether they've decided not to commit ANY crime.

Joey the lips

oscarBravo wrote: »

. La la la don't want to talk about it la la nothing to see here la la all in the past la la la I'm not listening la la la good local worker la la la...

Best bit said so far. For once we agree...:D

DoireNod

oscarBravo wrote: »

Eh, no. I wouldn't vote for a shyster or a con-man, so I'm definitely not voting for someone who tacitly condones murder.

Fair enough, but people evidently do, contrary to what Liam Byrne claims (assuming that there are muderers in Sinn Féin, as Liam Byrne claims):

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Down here, we certainly vote for some scheisters and con-men, but we don't vote for murderers.

Originally Posted by oscarBravo
I wouldn't call him a murderer, but it's equally clear we share almost nothing in terms of moral standards.

You and I? Or You and Ferris?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Down here, we expect mature people to sit down and work out their differences in a reasonable manner for the good of the country; we don't say "he's a Catholic, so I'd rather set fire to his house and kids than talk to him", or "he's a Protestant, I'd sooner shoot him than go for a pint with him"; or "we murdered a few of you guys, but it was a mistake and the cops didn't act on the warning, while you are completely and directly responsible for the ones of ours that you murdered and it was collusion". Childish, blinkered bull**** of the highest order.

Who in the North is like that? It's not a religious crusade in the North. Incidentally, what are the nationalists and unionists doing currently? They're sitting down and trying to work out their differences in a reasonable manner for the good of the people. Didn't you know that. Perhaps your head was in the sand when that happened?

Would SF object if an elected member of the DUP went to visit a thug in jail, and was pictured collecting him on his release ?

I don't know. Ask Gerry Adams.

Definitely not. Name one crime worse than murder ? Is hitting someone a thump as bad as murder ? Is robbing them as bad as murder ?

I never suggested these things were worse than murder, but they're still wrong and to say that 'sure, we vote for con-men and other shady characters, but at least we don't vote for murderers' doesn't make it any better that you vote for con-men or whoever. In that case, why isn't there a completely new government, with completely new parties. Or are people ok with fraudulent behaviour from their governments. It's just murder that's worth getting outraged over. (Again, I'm not saying murder is the same as fraud).

Sinn Fein as a group ? No. Show me where I said that they were ?

Ok, since it needs to be spelled out - Are you alleging that members of Sinn Féin are murderers? If so, who?

I said "we don't vote for murderers". People in the north did - murderers from both sides. Down here, in this country, we don't.

Based on your (disputable) assumption that there are 'murderers' in Sinn Féin, people in the Republic evidently do 'vote for murderers'.

So again, stop grasping at straws and trying to put objectionable slants on my post. SF [ as a group ] are not murderers, but they have some among their members.

Grasping at straws? I'm asking reasonable questions of your position, not trying to put a slant on your post.

Other parties have objectionable members as well.

Undoubtedly.

All 100% fact, so less of the spin and bull****, please.

Spin and bullsh1t? Where? What you say on boards, whether you accept it or not, is open to debate. As is what is said by every other poster on here. Accept that others may challenge your views, or ask legitimate, genuine questions of them. I'm not trying to catch you out and I have no agenda.

Liam Byrne

DoireNod wrote: »

sure, we vote for con-men and other shady characters, but at least we don't vote for murderers' doesn't make it any better that you vote for con-men or whoever

Er - I don't.

I'm not "anti-Sinn Fein"; I'm anti-questionable morals of ALL parties. Yes, murder is the worst, and Ferris has condoned it by his actions, so he's immediately banned from any possible consideration as a worthwhile politician.

DoireNod wrote: »

Based on your (disputable) assumption that there are 'murderers' in Sinn Féin, people in the Republic evidently do 'vote for murderers'.

Their choice.

Other parties have objectionable members as well.

And given those parties' stance on kicking out their scum, I don't vote for them either. I'm 100% consistent. And those DIRECT people (including Burke, Flynn, Haughey, Ahern) PLUS those who support and condone their actions - even though those actions aren't murder - are ALSO non-runners in my book.

Feck it, even the REPRESENTATIVES of FF who HADN'T explicitly condoned this crap by visiting Burke in jail got a firm "off my doorstep - now!" because they implicitly condoned it by not objecting and demanding their expulsion.

So yes - you're entitled to draw comparisions; and yes, the result is the same - instant "get out of my sight until you are even VAGUELY on the same planet as my morals". But the fact is that those people weren't even in the same league of contempt as Ferris.

waryeye

Seems like some people are very slow to take a point on this thread.
Liam Byrne. I reiterated earlier that Sinn Fein condemned the Jerry McCabe killing and never condoned it. Nor did the IRA sanction it. Again I refer you to the IRA's green book which expressly forbids such actions.

Your resort to your 'scum' terminology again about the whole Republican movement/Sinn Fein which is just silly name-calling. And, like Oscar Bravo, you didn't think the men paid sufficiently for their crime. Well they were deprived of their liberty for a long time.
Deprivation of liberty is the primary reason for being sent to prison and by the standards of the Irish courts I would contend they did pay for Adare.

Maybe you and your ilk want people to be chained to the wall or put in stocks but those days are gone. They served the time for what they did. It mightn't suit you. But it doesn't make all those people who served in the Republican movement 'murderers'. It doesn't make Sinn Fein murderers. Or their voters either.

Again there was the context of a 30-year plus war in a part of this country which you choose to ignore. Sinn Fein, in case you haven't noticed, are in government up north now.

You say people 'down here' never vote for murderers. And ei.sdraob tries to make the same point?

You choose to ignore of course the origin of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, both parties born out of the gun in the Civil War. Were they murderers?
Didnt stop the people of the 26 counties voting for them in election after election so cut the bull**** and take up a history book, check up Frank Aiken and Sean Lemass for two.
Of course they weren't murderers. But like the IRA/Sinn Fein of recent vintage they were forces in a political war.

Im sick to the back teeth of people like you Liam Byrne casting judgement on a whole section of our population who have been through a traumatic 35 years. People died and suffered on all sides. We are trying to move on.
The IRA and the Republican movement were no angels.

But neither were any of the major players, the UDR/RUC, the British Army, the loyalist paramilitaries . . .and that includes your own beloved government in the south who didn't lift a finger to help the pople of Belfast in the early days of the troubles, when they were being burned out of their home by loyalist mobs.
But it seems you want to blame the now defunct IRA and Sinn Fein for the whole damn mess.

I wish to Christ you would try and get some perspective. The killing of McCabe was wrong. But politics and the island has moved on.
What's done is done. Let the McCabes and all the families do their grieving in peace. Now get over it.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I personally don't give a bollox whether they have or not.

I'm more interested in whether they've decided not to commit ANY crime.

Well it is important. If released prisoners are intent on continuing a war thats over then it puts SF in a totally different light.

DoireNod

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Er - I don't.

Good, fair play to you, but I didn't suggest that you did. That was the figurative you I used in the sentence you quote - just in case you think I'm accusing you!:pac:

Their choice.

Yes, it is. You said that 'down here we don't vote for...', but I made it clear that people do. It sounded like you were speaking for the whole of the Republic, and I felt that sentence was wrong.

And given those parties' stance on kicking out their scum, I don't vote for them either. I'm 100% consistent. And those DIRECT people (including Burke, Flynn, Haughey, Ahern) PLUS those who support and condone their actions - even though those actions aren't murder - are ALSO non-runners in my book.

Feck it, even the REPRESENTATIVES of FF who HADN'T explicitly condoned this crap by visiting Burke in jail got a firm "off my doorstep - now!" because they implicitly condoned it by not objecting and demanding their expulsion.

So yes - you're entitled to draw comparisions; and yes, the result is the same - instant "get out of my sight until you are even VAGUELY on the same planet as my morals". But the fact is that those people weren't even in the same league of contempt as Ferris.

Fair enough. Sticking to your principles at least, but it's hardly an open-minded stance. Your morals are your morals and that's fine, you can have them, but on certain matters, your views may be found to be strange to some people. FACT.

I neither agree with nor disagree with Ferris meeting these two men. Am I supporting his actions by saying nothing? I don't like to make brash judgements on anyone until I'm as sure as I can be about their perceived guilt, that's all.

Liam Byrne

waryeye wrote: »

Liam Byrne. I reiterated earlier that Sinn Fein condemned the Jerry McCabe killing and never condoned it. Nor did the IRA sanction it. Again I refer you to the IRA's green book which expressly forbids such actions.

And I refer you to Adams and Ferris supporting them through thick and thin to the point of trying to get them released early, despite it "not being an IRA operation".

waryeye wrote: »

Your resort to your 'scum' terminology again about the whole Republican movement/Sinn Fein which is just silly name-calling.

Where did I call the "whole Republican movement" anything ?

If there are scum in there, then those people are scum; and if people support those scum, then there is guilt by association - their choice and the natural result.

But are there decent folk in there who despise this crap ? I hope so. But forgive me if I believe that they should do what I believe the "decent people" in FF should do - either disown / weed out the scum once and for all or change party.

waryeye wrote: »

And, like Oscar Bravo, you didn't think the men paid sufficiently for their crime. Well they were deprived of their liberty for a long time.

You're spot-on with this. They should have been deprived for the same length of time as Jerry McCabe, IMHO.

waryeye wrote: »

Maybe you and your ilk want people to be chained to the wall or put in stocks but those days are gone.

My ilk, eh ? If that's a snide description of people who think cold-blooded murderers should be hung, then yup - absolutely.

waryeye wrote: »

They served the time for what they did. It mightn't suit you. But it doesn't make all those people who served in the Republican movement 'murderers'. It doesn't make Sinn Fein murderers. Or their voters either.

Never said that it did - stop adding the word "all" to what I said. It does mean those people are murderers, and it does mean that those who visibly supported them are tainted by that choice.

waryeye wrote: »

Again there was the context of a 30-year plus war in a part of this country which you choose to ignore. Sinn Fein, in case you haven't noticed, are in government up north now.

There was no war in Adare. And killing McCabe did nothing for any cause. So I would view this as completely irrelevant bull****. It wasn't even an IRA operation, so you're now contradicting yourself if you view the actions in Adare as part of some "cause".

Plus, if you'd said "this island", I would have agreed. But again, you got your facts wrong.

waryeye wrote: »

You say people 'down here' never vote for murderers. And ei.sdraob tries to make the same point?

You choose to ignore of course the origin of Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, both parties born out of the gun in the Civil War. Were they murderers?

How many of the original members are looking for my vote ? How many of the original members are running my country ?

You say you want to "move on", and then you drag this - something that DIDN'T happen yesterday up ? And then you criticise me for having an opinion on something that happened as recently as yesterday ? :rolleyes:

waryeye wrote: »

Didnt stop the people of the 26 counties voting for them in election after election so cut the bull**** and take up a history

If I'd lived back then, it might have stopped me. The crap that FF got up to didn't stop some people voting for them as recently as last month, so I cannot control how other people vote. Therefore, again, your point is irrelevant.

waryeye wrote: »

Of course they weren't murderers.

I don't know. If they cold-bloodedly shot someone who wasn't even armed at the time, I might have viewed them as such.

waryeye wrote: »

Im sick to the back teeth of people like you Liam Byrne casting judgement on a whole section of our population who have been through a traumatic 35 years. People died and suffered on all sides. We are trying to move on.

I haven't judged ANYONE in that section of the population. I've previously said - uncomfortably, but honestly - that I could see the logic in murdering an RUC officer; I'd disagree with it, and condemn it as a tactic, but at least it would make some warped sense.

This thread is about a murder and a TD; nothing more. And if that TD and his party - and yourself - can't see that without screaming victim and claiming vague, misleading and tentative links to things that happened other people, then that's not my fault.

waryeye wrote: »

The IRA and the Republican movement were no angels.

But neither were any of the major players, the UDR/RUC, the British Army, the loyalist paramilitaries . . .and that includes your own beloved government in the south who didn't lift a finger to help the pople of Belfast in the early days of the troubles, when they were being burned out of their home by loyalist mobs.
But it seems you want to blame the now defunct IRA and Sinn Fein for the whole damn mess.

Emotive bull**** at its finest. I'm sick to death of people who spout a "cause" for UNRELATED ATROCITIES, and rather than weeding out scum, prefer to point fingers at the scum in other organisations.

When your own house is clean, come back and point fingers at others; I'll support you 100% then - I guarantee you that.

waryeye wrote: »

I wish to Christ you would try and get some perspective. The killing of McCabe was wrong. But politics and the island has moved on.
What's done is done. Let the McCabes and all the families do their grieving in peace. Now get over it.

And I would, if idiots like Ferris didn't drag up the past in such an objectionable way, or if people didn't say "excellent news" at the release of the scum involved, or collect them from prison, etc.

If this had been "killer criminals serve their [reduced-through-intimidation] sentence" and there had been ABSOLUTELY NO Sinn Fein involvement or comment, then it would have suited me just fine.

But Ferris did something objectionable and has further tainted "the cause", and damaged the progress made in "getting over it".

If you have an issue with that, take it up with him.

waryeye

Seems a lot of people in the south of Ireland are prone to taking the higher moral ground when discussing anything related to the years of political conflict in the north.

Like as if they and their seed, breed and generation wouldn't be involved in political violence, not for them that lowly disgusting business.

Yet they are glad to live in the `'republic' of Ireland which was born in blood. 1916. The War of Independence. The Civil War. A country that was led since the 1920s by the people who fought and took sides in both those conflicts.

These are unpalatable FACTS to those who want to cloak themselves in their democratic principles and their lofty abhorrence for violence. Now maybe if they were around then they would have been wholly opposed to the republican cause in those days too? Maybe they would have supported the British forces, the Black n Tans too? Who knows?

But some people get written out of history. The poor looters who were shot by the insurgents during the 1916 Rising spring to mind.
Martin Ferris meeting those guys getting out of prison is of no great moment in the great scheme of things, particularly after what's gone on in the North for 35 years, and those who are trying to whip up a storm about it should know better.

Liam Byrne

People in Europe are probably perfectly happy that Europe isn't part of Nazi Germany, but that doesn't stop them being rightly disgusted by the bombs that America dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Does that make them hypocritical for being disgusted by the tactics, the bombs and the effects on innocent people ?

And if a CURRENT politician was seen to clap America on the back for THAT action - dropping that bomb, would he get praised or elected ? Or would he be criticised ?

Spiritoftheseventies

Just to inject a bit of balance, todays Irish times article.
RELEASE OF MEN CONVICTED OVER GARDA’S KILLING: THE LAST two Provisional IRA gang members serving prison sentences for shooting dead Det Garda Jerry McCabe have been released from Castlerea Prison, Co Roscommon.

Pearse McCauley (44) and Kevin Walsh (52) had served 10½ years for their role in the June 1996 fatal shooting in Adare, Co Limerick, in which Det Garda Ben O’Sullivan was also wounded.

Following the men’s release yesterday morning, Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams said that in a public statement some years ago the IRA members convicted of the shooting “had expressed their deep regret and apologised for the ‘hurt and grief we have caused to their families’.”

Mr Adams added: “I deeply regret the great loss and hurt suffered by the McCabe and O’Sullivan families.

“The release of Kevin Walsh and Pearse McCauley comes at the end of their sentences, despite them being qualifying IRA prisoners under the Good Friday agreement.”

The men were jailed briefly in the maximum security Portlaoise Prison before being transferred to Castlerea, where they lived in houses in a relaxed regime rather than among the general prison population in cells.

A bid to have the gang members released early under the Belfast Agreement was rejected by the High Court.

Det Garda McCabe was shot three times as he sat in an unmarked Garda car while providing an armed escort for an SDS van delivering cash for social welfare payments.

Det Gda O’Sullivan, who was in the car with Det Gda McCabe, suffered gunshot and shrapnel wounds to his face, arms, chest and legs. The men’s car was rammed from behind before 14 shots were fired by the gang, who were armed with Kalashnikov rifles.

Four Provisional IRA members, including Strabane man McCauley and Limerick man Walsh, were convicted of the attack.

McCauley and Walsh were sentenced to 14 years in 1999 for manslaughter. With remission they were due to serve 10½ years, which was completed yesterday.

Another gang member, Jeremiah Sheehy, was released in 2008, while Michael O’Neill, who was also convicted of manslaughter, left prison in 2007. Two other men suspected of involvement in the killing are still on the run.

A statement released recently by Gda McCabe’s widow Ann and their five children said the completion of the sentences “brought closure and consolation that the rule of law at least has been served”.

Sinn Féin’s Martin Ferris TD, who collected McCauley and Walsh from prison on their release yesterday, welcomed an announcement by the UK authorities that extradition proceedings against a number of republicans, including McCauley, have been discontinued.

“This will be a relief to the men and their families,” he said in a statement. He did not speak to the media gathered outside Castlerea Prison yesterday.

A statement from Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said it no longer planned to pursue the prosecution of four republicans. It said the passage of time, availability or otherwise of key evidence exhibits and statements made by politicians in recent years about on-the-run terrorists meant securing prosecutions was unlikely.

McCauley was wanted on explosives and conspiracy to murder charges. He escaped from London’s Brixton Prison in July 1991 while awaiting trial. Another Brixton escapee, Nessan Quinlivan is also among the four no longer being pursued by the CPS.

Quinlivan, from Limerick, was wanted on a variety of charges including explosives and conspiracy to murder.

The other two men named in the CPS statement are Andrew Martin and Anthony Duncan. Martin, a Dubliner in his 40s, and Duncan, a 39-year-old Dubliner, were also wanted on explosives charges. All alleged crimes occurred in the UK in the 1980s and 1990s.

Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson described the CPS decision as “incredible”. He said they were now enjoying the policies enacted by the former and current Ulster Unionist Party leaders. The Traditional Unionist Voice leader Jim Allister said the decision was “nothing short of outrageous”.

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But the fact is that Adams is not elected in this country.

According to the GAA, the Church of Ireland, the Catholic Church, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland and, well, countless other organisations representing a wide range of political views in Ireland, Adams is indeed elected in "this country".


Seán Murphy of Cullyhanna is as much as part of "this country" as Seán Murphy of Cobh. By your logic, this part of Ireland was not in "this country" prior to 6 December 1922 because it was under the rule of a foreign state.

Liam Byrne

bayviewclose wrote: »

Sinn Féin’s Martin Ferris TD, who collected McCauley and Walsh from prison on their release yesterday, welcomed an announcement by the UK authorities that extradition proceedings against a number of republicans, including McCauley, have been discontinued.

“This will be a relief to the men and their families,” he said in a statement. He did not speak to the media gathered outside Castlerea Prison yesterday.

So Ferris is delighted that they won't be held to account for their other crimes ?

What a man!

:rolleyes:

waryeye

Liam Byrne wrote: »

People in Europe are probably perfectly happy that Europe isn't part of Nazi Germany, but that doesn't stop them being rightly disgusted by the bombs that America dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Does that make them hypocritical for being disgusted by the tactics, the bombs and the effects on innocent people ?

And if a CURRENT politician was seen to clap America on the back for THAT action - dropping that bomb, would he get praised or elected ? Or would he be criticised ?

:P never mind Hiroshima which is another red herring in your argument. But I never heard of anyone in Europe `being rightly disgusted' by the tactics of the Allies that freed them during te Second World War. They understood better than anyone that war is a nasty business and a lot of nasty things happen in it. And were damn grateful to be freed despite the bombings of Dresden etc.

It's usually left to those, like yourself and the many other Irish revisionists, who were far from the theatre of war to pass judgement on the soldiers who did what they felt they had to do in war during 1916, 18-21 and subsequently in the Northern conflict.

I'm not surprised you are uncomfortable with what the founding fathers of this state did in a bid to get their freedom. The freedom that you now enjoy live in a free 26 counties and to pontificate on matters with no cost to yourself.

You can wag your finger all you like at the Martin Ferrises of this country. But they chose to take part in a conflict they saw as just, when the North erupted. And Im happy to salute them and all their brave comrades tonight. The fact that the people of North Kerry choose Ferris to represent them is a bonus.
Some of the IRA did things in the conflict they shouldn't have. But that's war. And all sides in the North did it.

And Adare and Jerry McCabe would fit into that latter unfortunate category.

Interesting to note however that you favour capital punishment for some crimes? So you are not such a great humanitarian after all.

Liam Byrne

waryeye wrote: »

:P never mind Hiroshima which is another red herring in your argument. But I never heard of anyone in Europe `being rightly disgusted' by the tactics of the Allies that freed them during te Second World War. They understood better than anyone that war is a nasty business and a lot of nasty things happen in it.

I'm not surprised you are uncomfortable with what the founding fathers of this state did in a bid to get their freedom. The freedom that you now enjoy live in a free 26 counties and to pontificate on matters with no cost to yourself.

You can wag your finger all you like at the Martin Ferrises of this country. But they chose to take part in a conflict they saw as just, when the North erupted.

Please stop attributing opinions that I did not express. I never wagged my fingers at ANY of the above in this thread.

waryeye wrote: »

Some of the IRA did things in the conflict they shouldn't have. But that's war. And all sides in the North did it.

Yes. And I equally condemn either side for anything that affected innocent people. So there is no point for you to make there

waryeye wrote: »

And Adare and Jerry McCabe would fit into that latter unfortunate category.

No, they don't. That was a crime - pure and simple. It was NOT (apparently) an IRA operation, and had NOTHING to do with the north or the struggle.

waryeye wrote: »

Interesting to note however that you favour capital punishment for some crimes? So you are not such a great humanitarian after all.

I'd prefer to live in a world where it wasn't needed. And I'd prefer if it were there as a deterrent.

But given the choice and put to the pin of my collar on it, I'd prefer the scum to be dead than the innocent, so "lesser of two evils" applies.

locum-motion

dlofnep wrote: »

I was banned from politics about 2 years back for suggesting that the farmer who shot that traveller in the back as he escaped on foot was murder. I expect the same rules to be applied across the forum.

Oh, yeah, I can see now how that's the same thing! How silly of me not to see that before.

waryeye

If you Liam Byrne say you weren't wagging your finger at the Martin Ferrises of this country, as I contended, then you surely fooled me:o. You have been berating the man with numerous posts for hours. Standing in judgement of him, his history, his political motivations, the party he represents and his morality. So that's a bit rich.
But feel freee to judge, that's a nice place for you to be.

You contend the attempted armed robbery by an IRA unit, whether it was a sanctioned operation or not, had nothing to do with the North or the struggle going on there? That flies in the face of any facts I've ever know about the day in Adare? Fund-raising operations for the Republican movement would certainly fall into the above category.
But if you are privy to some information that I'm not perhaps you would share it with us?

As for your attitude to capital punishment, it's crystal clear now that you are in favour of the coldest blooded kind of killing of all.
The cold deliberate taking of a human life as a punishment, as a lesson, a warning to others.
(Shades here of the many judicial executions by the Free State government during the civil war)
It renders much of what you have said previously about 'killing' and 'murder' as absurd.
Just as such talk was absurd from Ministers O'Higgins or Mulcahy during the latter period.
Capital punishment I would say to you is a form of killing which is much colder than what occurred in Adare that day. Regrettable as that action was . . . .
But I'm sure your mind will find a way to square that circle too :rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So Ferris is delighted that they won't be held to account for their other crimes ?

What a man!

:rolleyes:

This will be a relief to the men and their families,” he said in a statement. He did not speak to the media gathered outside Castlerea Prison yesterday.
No mention of delight.

waryeye

So Ferris is delighted that they won't be held to account for their other crimes ? ?

Yes another revealing slip by you there Mr Byrne. 'Other crimes' you say? By clear implication any action undertaken by McAuley etc , never mind Adare, falls under the criminal category to you? Does that hold for all the activities of the IRA over that period?
Wonder where you were during the Hunger Strikes when Thatcher's government tried the card of painting all Republican action as `'criminal'?
When it patently was not.
It was politically motivated violence and that has been fully acknowledged by the subsequent releases under the Good Friday Agreement.
The effort to portray Republican violence as criminal was defeated by the self-same hunger strikes and the subsequent rise of Sinn Fein in the North as the majority party representing the Nationalist viewpoint.

But yes. No problem with cold-blooded state killing, via capital punishment and now categorising any IRA activity as 'criminal'.
Interesting. The truth will out. Eventually. You should apply for a job in the Sunday Indo.:o