Why is Ireland "meant to be poor"?

dan_d

We consider ourselves "poor" because we are socially several generations behind the rest of Europe. Yes we have a long history but the majority of that was spent under the rule of a country who wiped out our middle classes and made us all peasants. We haven't ruled ourselves for a century yet. Compare that to France or Germany or many other EU countries, who have ruled themselves for how long now?? Most of our parent's generation have family members who emigrated. Some of our grandparents lived through the civil war.

It is something that will pass with the generations. We did get lucky, but kind of like a kid in a candy store that's been given 1000 euro. We ran around grabbing stuff, and flinging money around the place. We were seriously stupid about the whole thing and our unhealthy obsession with property (again partly a throwback to the time spent as peasant farmers under English rule) did not help. We didn't have the experience to know what else to do.

Now I'm not excusing any of the behaviour, nor am I saying the English are to blame. I'm just saying look at our history and compare it to that of France, Germany, Spain, etcetc,countries that have ruled themselves for centuries and who have seen boom and bust come and go - probably several times.

EastWallGirl

Absolutely the white elephant in the room is how Bertie spent the money and it emphasises the fact that as long as the money was in individuals back pocket but as a country do not want programmes that may benefit people but not us individually.

I do not think charity is a result of 'left wing media', the foundation is more in the fact that the Church was so involved in the charitable areas, hospitals, orphanages, education etc - as they saw a gap and saw it as a perfect opportunity to practice their theocratic rulership.

As the saying goes there are no atheists in the trenchs and I think that extends to the FF government, the minute they see the collar they open the cheque book.

We didn't have the experience to know what else to do. Dan D

Dan there were plenty of economic models that the leaders of this country could follow. There are plenty of smart people in Ireland. I think the fact is after being ruled by the English (and the Church) instead of rejecting the model of the coloniser those in charge decided that was the way to go. You now have people that are 2nd and 3rd generation politicians on all sides of the political divide, this is all they know and they still use guilt, national identity and psychology (and now bad PR) to keep you all in your place. and emigration.

tlev

Well in the future economic textbooks the Irish 'Celtic Tiger' will be but a blip in the grand scheme of things. Ireland were incredibly shortsighted with their new found money. Rather than laying the foundations of a strong infrastructure like transport, broadband and healthcare we built a lot of fancy apartments and cafe's charging 8 euro for a foaming frappucino. Oh and lots of shoddy built overpriced houses. Because people didnt know any better they bought and bought and bought pushing prices even further up...

It's simple really you can't change the attitudes of a nation so quickly...takes time.

AMIIAM

Well said, tlev.I hope you didn't cause anybody to choke on their overpriced Crapucino!LOL.

RealEstateKing

Ireland is not meant to be poor: Most countries on Earth are poor.

There are a small number of countries who have managed to pull themselves out of poverty in the past 200 Years: By and large, those countries are Mainland European ones, The UK, The US, and any New World countries with an Anglo Culture: Aus, New Zealand etc, plus Japan, and South Korea.

For the most part, the countries that are wealthy are the same ones that managed to grab the largest peice of the pie back in colonial days (All the Euro ones) , plus a few newcomers (South Korea), and countries that were peopled after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (Aus, New Zealand)


The NewComers (such as South Korea), have usually gotten rich by being very hard-working, well-organised and good at something that nobody else is good at, thus carving a niche for themselves somewhere in the food chain.

China and India are busy doing so at the moment, but of course will be held back by their massive size, and the simple fact that the amount of resources on the planet simply couldnt support a China and India where at least half the population arent miserably poor.

Ireland, in the first half of the Celtic Tiger, seemed to have found a little niche for itself as a reasonably clever little people (But not as clever or hard-working as Chinese or Indians by a long shot), who had the great advantage of having being forced to speak English by their erstwhile colonisers. Thus they were easy people for American companies to do business with, and their cosy little country didnt have any of the problems of a lumbering beast of a place like India.

So we got jobs in American companies. Unfortunately the little bit of cash injection we got, began to make us think we were on our way to becoming a dominant world power and one of the richest nations on earth. You dont get to be one of those countries by being mediocre good natured but basically lazy folk who like to come into work hungover. You either have to work your buns off like the Koreans, or be a big swinging military dick on the block , like the US and most of Europe.

As we have neither of these qualities, we are destined to go back to the 2nd world where we came from, as even if the financial crisis hadnt happened, there are more clever, hard-working Indians in a medium sized industrial park on the outskirts of Hyderabad, who will work for far less and harder than we ever will. Thus we are buggered either way.

Of course, we will never go right back to the Third World either, as from the mid-nineteenth century onwards, we tended to export our starving, blighted excess population to the U.S, Australia and Canada, leaving us with a nice manageable number of people to take care of on an Island with not too many resources to call its own.

tlev

I agree with what you are RealEstateKing, even though there is a fair bit of stereotyping in there.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Gran Hermano wrote: »

People quoting GDP per capita might find it interesting to google the difference between GDP and GNP.
One thing this country has facilitated alongside low corporate taxes is ease in repatriation of profits by multinationals.

Are these of any use ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita
http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/world_s_richest_countries

The data's a few years old though .

And I think that "repatriation of profits" shouldn't be so welcomed.

weepee

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Ireland is not meant to be poor: Most countries on Earth are poor.

There are a small number of countries who have managed to pull themselves out of poverty in the past 200 Years: By and large, those countries are Mainland European ones, The UK, The US, and any New World countries with an Anglo Culture: Aus, New Zealand etc, plus Japan, and South Korea.

For the most part, the countries that are wealthy are the same ones that managed to grab the largest peice of the pie back in colonial days (All the Euro ones) , plus a few newcomers (South Korea), and countries that were peopled after the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (Aus, New Zealand)


The NewComers (such as South Korea), have usually gotten rich by being very hard-working, well-organised and good at something that nobody else is good at, thus carving a niche for themselves somewhere in the food chain.

China and India are busy doing so at the moment, but of course will be held back by their massive size, and the simple fact that the amount of resources on the planet simply couldnt support a China and India where at least half the population arent miserably poor.

Ireland, in the first half of the Celtic Tiger, seemed to have found a little niche for itself as a reasonably clever little people (But not as clever or hard-working as Chinese or Indians by a long shot), who had the great advantage of having being forced to speak English by their erstwhile colonisers. Thus they were easy people for American companies to do business with, and their cosy little country didnt have any of the problems of a lumbering beast of a place like India.

So we got jobs in American companies. Unfortunately the little bit of cash injection we got, began to make us think we were on our way to becoming a dominant world power and one of the richest nations on earth. You dont get to be one of those countries by being mediocre good natured but basically lazy folk who like to come into work hungover. You either have to work your buns off like the Koreans, or be a big swinging military dick on the block , like the US and most of Europe.

As we have neither of these qualities, we are destined to go back to the 2nd world where we came from, as even if the financial crisis hadnt happened, there are more clever, hard-working Indians in a medium sized industrial park on the outskirts of Hyderabad, who will work for far less and harder than we ever will. Thus we are buggered either way.

Of course, we will never go right back to the Third World either, as from the mid-nineteenth century onwards, we tended to export our starving, blighted excess population to the U.S, Australia and Canada, leaving us with a nice manageable number of people to take care of on an Island with not too many resources to call its own.

I dont think I would consider New Zealand a prosperous nation, not from speaking to relatives from there anyway.

Australia and South Africa, along with Canada, have vast natural resources, oil, iron ore, and in SAs situation, gold.

These resources along with cheap labour from impoverished Europe built the foundations of the new world.

South Korea and Japan, are instruments of US investment on a massive scale, with strong economic and financial treaties to American markets.

Chinas growth has come around solely on the backs of cheap domestic labour and little to no employment laws, India is following suit.

Then of course the United States, with 300 million people having disposable income, its a market on its own.

Ireland depended heavily upon US investment to start the ball rolling, but how anyone imagined that 'construction' could continue to bank roll the economy, is totally beyond me, that bubble had to burst eventually.

Latchy

darkman2 wrote: »

A thought struck me this week about the overtones of Ireland's current problems coming from both internal media and abroad. With both the concensus seems to be that Ireland is suppose to be poor and backward, and what we had was just a freak blip, and "normal service is now resuming".

Perhaps that was the problem OP , to much to soon , to quick and not having the back up ,will power, or know how to deal with it when it goes / went pear shaped .

Why is this? Is it the under population of the country? (sure, Luxembourg is tiny, and yet, rich) Is it the geographical location? Maybe a mixture of both? What fundamentally makes people subconciously think that Ireland should be poor or just "getting by"?

But before the celtic tiger myth , that's what Ireland was , a poor country on the fringes of the western seaboard , very popular with American tourists who in the majority , had their holidays subsidised by the Irish goverment trying to attract more of the same and american investment .
The groundwork which was layed in the 60s by Sean Lemass

ust an interesting thought that occured to me. It's like everyone thinks, rightly or wrongly, that we are suppose to be a second class country forever. Is there a basis on which this is factual in your view?

Well it depends , what has this country got to offer it's people ? We exported our people for generations without a second thought regardless of how well they did or didn't do in the countries they moved to . Of course the ones who did very well were recognised but failure wasn't an option for many .

In an extreme case you may actually believe that the intellect of the Irish generally is below par to be anything more then running a second class country with more then a whiff of corruption?

Corruption was always around in ireland as it was / is in most countyrs .But in a more innocent age it was given respectablity under the umbrella of church and state ie, you look after me and I'll look after myself ...pun intended btw

And

in your view can it be rich?

Ireland for such a small country was always rich in talent be it in the arts ie, music , film , poetry , sport , .Its hard to see how it can sustain and make it's own wealth without outside investment /development which is were we were before the brief stint with wealth

blogga

Threads like this invite lectures and wanna be lecturers in reply.
To avoid same, a few points which are my humble opinions:
1. Industrial revolution happened elsewhere
2. Mainly agricultural base to the economy for generations
3. Speed of change in globalization meant the industry that developed following the 60's growth has been eroded
4. Corruption and political clientelism meant decisions are subservient to political party needs, not long term gain of citizens.
5. Population scattered over wide area increasing duplication of public services and costs
6. Lack of abundant and high value natural resources
7. Lack of sufficient indigenous industry and entrepeneurial giftedness (note NOT skills)
I think that when someone says the country is "meant" to be poor they are saying that these conditions and more have never been altered sufficiently for the country to amass wealth.

MiniDriver

Well, as far as I see it, all of the main western economies have been in decline since the mid-70's - certainly in terms of average earnings which have decreased as a proportion of GDP even in the USA.

All that's happened since the monetarists took charge of the UK and USA in the late 70's is that there has been a rapid exploitation of energy resources, and myriad innovations in consumer debt that have fed a rapid succession of asset bubbles that have been largely mistaken for "wealth". These asset bubbles have also benefitted producer nations such as China, Japan and Germany, and opened opportunities for outsourcing in economic backwaters such Ireland (sorry guys) and Eastern Europe.

Ultimately the increasingly rickety tower of credit had to collapse, which will wipe out most of the economic gains made across the industrial world over at least the last 30 years, leaving everybody (at best) in the kind of economic situation that existed in the early 1970's. From then on it will slowly get worse.

The boom of the last decade was indeed an anomaly for Ireland, but no more so than it was for the UK, the USA, Germany, Japan, Spain, China etc. The levels of wealth experienced by all these countries will probably never return. If they do, it will be well outside our lifetimes.

Ireland will return to its usual historical wealth levels - i.e. somewhat lower than the UK.

irish_bob

MiniDriver wrote: »

Well, as far as I see it, all of the main western economies have been in decline since the mid-70's - certainly in terms of average earnings which have decreased as a proportion of GDP even in the USA.

All that's happened since the monetarists took charge of the UK and USA in the late 70's is that there has been a rapid exploitation of energy resources, and myriad innovations in consumer debt that have fed a rapid succession of asset bubbles that have been largely mistaken for "wealth". These asset bubbles have also benefitted producer nations such as China, Japan and Germany, and opened opportunities for outsourcing in economic backwaters such Ireland (sorry guys) and Eastern Europe.

Ultimately the increasingly rickety tower of credit had to collapse, which will wipe out most of the economic gains made across the industrial world over at least the last 30 years, leaving everybody (at best) in the kind of economic situation that existed in the early 1970's. From then on it will slowly get worse.

The boom of the last decade was indeed an anomaly for Ireland, but no more so than it was for the UK, the USA, Germany, Japan, Spain, China etc. The levels of wealth experienced by all these countries will probably never return. If they do, it will be well outside our lifetimes.

Ireland will return to its usual historical wealth levels - i.e. somewhat lower than the UK.

yet our wages are way ahead of the uk and other countries which are wealthier than us , tough times ahead

Fat_Fingers

Population is more educated and there is a stronger chance then in the past to reject political corruption. People of this country might be a bit more demanding in the future and push for less corruption from the Government.
I think Ireland still has opportunity to prosper as long as there is a big change in political makeup and structure. Current political structure doesn't work. Local village interests are always put ahead of interested of whole state. So to prosper again Ireland need to change how it governs itself. "Serial" politicians , i mean 2nd, 3rd generation people in politics who have no experience of real world would need to stop. Other condition for prosperity is to re-balance government makeup, too many politicians and our correct ministers are teachers. Just ask yourself , would you put someone with Arts degree qualifications ( Batt O Keeffe, Mary Hanafin, Micheal Martin, Noel Dempsey, Mary Harney.. yes their only qualifications is Arts degree) in charge of your company?
But for Ireland to move toward prosperity people need to start to think and act responsible . Its simple.....corruption, incompetence, self-interest must be punished. People of Mayo stop reelecting Beverley Flynn, that is just one example.

CelticTiger*

One major factor has got to be that Ireland had no part to play in the Industrial Revolution, thus emigration etc.
Say Ireland did industrialize the same time as Britain,USA,France etc
We'd probably have a population of around 12 million at the least.
There wouldnt be as big an irish presence in Britain as there is today, aswell Britains pop. would be cut down around 10-20% aswell!

I think we can return to the good times, We are a very open economy and thats good and bad.
It means that practically the EU and USA are our sugar daddies.
The recession started because of trouble in the States right ?
And because of our heavy reliance on the states it means were fecked whenever USA is fecked.
We've only recently become an open economy yeh?
So it means there cant be moderate growth levels, when theres boom its a big boom and when theres bust were truly fecked.
However to bring wealth to this country we have to be open.
Due to our mere pop. of 4.4 million etc.
I think once the states and the rest of europe find their feet again, so will we.But we need the states and EU to be growing for us to grow yeh?
Aswell think this, in future we might'nt be relying on the states so much, as currently it is the sole world economic power, but not for long.
Look at China, India, Brazil, Russia etc.
Soon (10-20 years?) it wont be all about the wonderful America.(sarcasm intended)

Please go easy on me lol i dont exactly have a degree in economics lol, and im 15

Red Sleeping Beauty

It's a coin toss on a roulette table whether Ireland will "return to good times". The high end knowledge economy jobs you here about aren't going to make much of a dent in the half a million unemployed. Perhaps rather than a return to the good times the people in power could try and attempt to make the country more equal. Considering the vested interests the career politicians have and the interests their advisors have there may not be much chance of that happening though.

irish_bob

Alan Rouge wrote: »

It's a coin toss on a roulette table whether Ireland will "return to good times". The high end knowledge economy jobs you here about aren't going to make much of a dent in the half a million unemployed. Perhaps rather than a return to the good times the people in power could try and attempt to make the country more equal. Considering the vested interests the career politicians have and the interests their advisors have there may not be much chance of that happening though.

i hear alot about more equality on various threads , exactly what does this mean , its a serious question

meathstevie

creeper1 wrote: »

You are confused op. You want to see a country meant to be poor then go to Sierra Leone or some other third world crap hole.

Ireland is an advanced economy and there is tremendous wealth there. Horse owners, high class business people and tycoons are abundant.

Sure there are some problems at the moment but don't let things get out of proportion.

Ireland is an integral part of the EU and an important member. My worry is that by letting in these new members in the East we are devaluing our EU.

Big thank you to Germany, France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium et all for not applying that sort of logic when they took the basket case called Ireland on board a couple of decades ago.

There's fundamentally no reason why Ireland should be "poor" or "backward" but the tendency of people to elect and re-elect people who at the first oppurtunity show to be incompetent and uninspired and sometimes corrupt does the place no favours. From the foundation of the state till now can anyone please point out a genuine statesman of any calibre who's been at the helm ? The only one that could have come close in my opinion was shot and killed in Cork.

Even during WWII when Ireland could have really become a respected member of the international community - decades before it managed to do so - it's leader was so blinkered by his feelings about the Brits that he couldn't see the merits of the fight against Nazism. He didn't even have to have ports opened to the Royal Navy, the government could have just as easily opened the ports to the US Navy and let the USAF build bases along the coast to fight submarines. The post-war economical spin-offs of such actions could have been enormous; from Marshal plan aid to direct American investment. Instead the place has been cursed with Magdalen laundries, moral stormtrooper-priest, corruption and mass emigration. Please don't use the German invasion treath as an excuse because that was well neutered after the battle of Britain.

It always puzzled me why Irish Americans and Irish people who went abroad to a large extent were able to establish themselves. Hundreds of solid American and British army officers where Irish. Thousands of American cops and firefighters who've built good solid careers were Irish or from Irish decent. Others have built up considerable businesses like Ford or went into politics like the Kennedys. What for feck's sake restrained their contemporaries at home from doing the same ?

freedom of info

meathstevie wrote: »

Big thank you to Germany, France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium et all for not applying that sort of logic when they took the basket case called Ireland on board a couple of decades ago.

There's fundamentally no reason why Ireland should be "poor" or "backward" but the tendency of people to elect and re-elect people who at the first oppurtunity show to be incompetent and uninspired and sometimes corrupt does the place no favours. From the foundation of the state till now can anyone please point out a genuine statesman of any calibre who's been at the helm ? The only one that could have come close in my opinion was shot and killed in Cork.

Even during WWII when Ireland could have really become a respected member of the international community - decades before it managed to do so - it's leader was so blinkered by his feelings about the Brits that he couldn't see the merits of the fight against Nazism. He didn't even have to have ports opened to the Royal Navy, the government could have just as easily opened the ports to the US Navy and let the USAF build bases along the coast to fight submarines. The post-war economical spin-offs of such actions could have been enormous; from Marshal plan aid to direct American investment. Instead the place has been cursed with Magdalen laundries, moral stormtrooper-priest, corruption and mass emigration. Please don't use the German invasion treath as an excuse because that was well neutered after the battle of Britain.

It always puzzled me why Irish Americans and Irish people who went abroad to a large extent were able to establish themselves. Hundreds of solid American and British army officers where Irish. Thousands of American cops and firefighters who've built good solid careers were Irish or from Irish decent. Others have built up considerable businesses like Ford or went into politics like the Kennedys. What for feck's sake restrained their contemporaries at home from doing the same ?

i agree with your comment on collins, the rest of it is rubbish though, the luftwaffe would have demolished the place upto 1943, the problem with Ireland is we vote with our hearts not with our heads, hence incompetent and corrupt politicians

freedom of info

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Just off topic here but is it true Padraig Pearse desire was for an island of 50 million people? I read this before but wonder where the person got it from.

some serious riding then

c-note

I'm not an extensive traveller.

But if you really think that we are poor, or even approaching the outskirts of poor, then you've failed to gauge us against the vast majority of the world.

The fact is that we are wasters.

freedom of info

c-note wrote: »

I'm not an extensive traveller.

But if you really think that we are poor, or even approaching the outskirts of poor, then you've failed to gauge us against the vast majority of the world.

The fact is that we are wasters.

thats a bit harsh, compare us to other developed countries, and you will find that we are well down the list, deduct expenditure from income and whats left over, our services are dismal compared with most west european countries.

if you are making comparisons with zimbabwe or haiti then yes we are doing ok, as for wasters, come on we never really had a problem working are arses off, drink is our curse, that and a lack of self belief,not to mention greedy self serving gob****es allegedly running the country

strathspey

I'm slowing coming around to the conclusion that Ireland is merely a country of farmers and tradesmen who got lucky with a 12.5 corporation tax.

irish_bob

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Well maby poor by European standards.

and yet we have the highest paid nurses , police and doctors in europe

Riskymove

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Well maby poor by European standards.

defining and measuring poverty is an ongoing debate

there is "relative income poverty"

In ireland that means 60% of the median "standardised" income in the state; anyone below that is considered to be in "at risk of poverty"

effectively thats poverty in relation to the general income of a country


"Deprivation"
Deprivation is measured by lacking, due to your income, some things "considered" to be societal norms

In ireland this includes: going without heating, not having 2 good pairs of shoes and so on

"Consistent poverty"

People who are both (a) in relatiuve income poverty and (b) in deprivation are considered in "consistent poverty"

"absolute poverty"
Absolute poverty is a more world-wide term used to measure in developing world and I think $1 a day is the level used at present

Riskymove

irish_bob wrote: »

and yet we have the highest paid nurses , police and doctors in europe

ironically enough, higher wages usually lead to more people being considered "at risk of poverty"

freedom of info

irish_bob wrote: »

and yet we have the highest paid nurses , police and doctors in europe

can you begrudge them a decent salary

tlev

I dont know if Ireland is meant to be poor but I really think it is a lack of planning past anything more than a year. I think the perfect example is the M50. By the time it was actually finished, they tore the whole thing up due to increased demand and are still building. Everything here is short term and not thinking about building towards a future.

irish_bob

freedom of info wrote: »

can you begrudge them a decent salary

guards and nurses earn about 20 k per year more than a decent salary , in the uk they earn a decent salary and in most other european countries

freedom of info

irish_bob wrote: »

guards and nurses earn about 20 k per year more than a decent salary , in the uk they earn a decent salary and in most other european countries

do the maths, the cost of living is considerably higher here than in most euro zone countries, after that has been taken into consideration what then is the real difference, i would prefer a nurse receiving a high salary than a high ranking free loading civil servant who is only there because of years of service, rather than ability

tlev

freedom of info wrote: »

i would prefer a nurse receiving a high salary than a high ranking free loading civil servant who is only there because of years of service, rather than ability

sounds kinda like Brian Cowan...:D:D