PI on Twitter

tallaght01

Again, I know it's not the populist view, but there are far bigger ethical and moral issues with opening up vulnerable people with serious problems to a gaggle of untrained and unvetted "advisors" on boards, than there is with a link going up in twitter, in my opinion.

Sparky

For the amount of PI tweets this really is a major storm in a teacup.

There was a tweet along with others in a batch of other forums 4 hrs ago.
The last PI/RI tweet was 2:34 PM Aug 2nd.

monkeyfudge

Personally I don't think it's about the frequency or the impact of the tweets.

It's just the labeling of peoples problems as 'popular' that seems a bit off.

The_Minister

tallaght01 wrote: »

Again, I know it's not the populist view, but there are far bigger ethical and moral issues with opening up vulnerable people with serious problems to a gaggle of untrained and unvetted "advisors" on boards, than there is with a link going up in twitter, in my opinion.

I wish Thanks were not disabled in Feedback.

Dav

I think this has gotten way too heated. We're gonna have a chat about this in the office in the morning, it's a bit late for clear thinking.

Aoibheann

tallaght01 wrote: »

Again, I know it's not the populist view, but there are far bigger ethical and moral issues with opening up vulnerable people with serious problems to a gaggle of untrained and unvetted "advisors" on boards, than there is with a link going up in twitter, in my opinion.

Agree with this, well to a certain point. I certainly agree it's more of an issue, but at the same time to defend the PI forum ethos in general:

-Any medical advice threads are immediately locked (as per the forum you moderate )

-Any threads where I've seen seriously vulnerable people post, pretty much all of the time anyone responding to the thread will recommend they see a psychologist/refer them to the specific group of people who can help them.. from AA to the Samaritans.. People know their limits and most of them are aware they aren't trained. However, sometimes a bit of advice/encouragement from people who have experienced similar situations can be a huge help.

-It is one of the most carefully modded forums on the site, if not the most - any unhelpful advice/advice that can be taken the wrong way can and has been deleted on pretty much every occasion.

So while I do feel the Twitter thing is grand myself and I do see your point in that untrained advice is much more of an issue, I do think that the forum is moderated well enough to avoid disaster..

Wibbs

Silverfish wrote: »

I did read yours, which is how I referenced it. But if you want to just throw digs, we can do that all night.

Well, Cult, the reason I don't like this being referenced on the @boards_top twitter feed is because people post on PI to seek advice on problems, this is not popular AH or Soccer threads, this is people who were abused, or hurt, or had a family member die or be seriously ill.

These people post these things on boards knowing it is on boards, it will be on the front page, yet they come here and post it. Grand. What they do NOT know is that an employee will harvest their thread and spam it to the general populous of Twitter.

Now, twitter is a bit more popular than JohnJoe linking it to Paddy on MSN for the sneer. That's WHY there's a @boards_top account on twitter.

Now, if PI is exempt from registered posting, exempt from searching on boards.ie, exempt from being linked to FROM OTHER FORUMS ON THIS SITE, then why on earth is it allowed be linked by a boards.ie account on twitter.

THAT is my problem with leaving them there.

Ditto on this, especially the bolded part. It's one or the other. If its restricted within Boards, then it should be restricted without. If not the latter, then what's the point of the former(this goes double if it's actively flagged by whomever to be on an external source.). Open it up to all and sundry or don't. Seems a fairly simple distinction regardless of one's personal stance on the matter.

I don't buy the "well it's on the internet, so anyone can plug into it/lost in the background traffic" bullshít either. The unregged users may not agree. Even in my relatively short time, I have had enough of the same PM'ing me to remove certain posts because someone spotted them on Boards and on here search and linking is restricted. Rightly so too.

If the "it's all on the internet" angle is true then Silverfish's point still stands. It is restricted on this part of the internet. Again either or. So someone make an actual decision; One or the other. A or B. BTW, ABish isn't a decision.

tallaght01

Aoibheann, I won't de-rail this any more, except to say that it doesn't matter what type of moderation is in place. It's advice given to vulnerable people by others who are not trained to do so. My understanding is that the moderators have no training either. From your brush with (lucky escape from :P ) a career in medicine, you might e able to look through that forum and see the significant number of people with depressive symptoms and borderline personality disorders that get "advice". I've shown it to a few psychiatrists and they're as shocked as me, so I don't think I'm alone.

But apologies. I'll leave this alone now. There is *some* relevance here, in that I think twitter is the least of the forum's big problems. But I'm genuinely not looking to start a row, as I know this is a battle that's not popular enough to win.

So, I'm signing off

The Sweeper

I can see why people are upset at the idea that PI threads would be proactively bumped to outside sources by a bot, meaning it happens routinely. Dav's already said the lads will discuss it in the office tomorrow - I'd weigh in that for future reference, the PI forum should be removed from the twitter feeds.

Regarding personal issues being a safe place for users to post, however: the Personal Issues forum on boards is a safe place insofar as anonymous users can post personal problems and the site moderators will do their utmost to ensure those problems are not belittled, trolled or disrespected. This whole argument serves as a good reminder to users that the internet is not private in any way, shape or form, and your information can indeed get to people who wouldn't want reading it, even if you've posted anonymously.

It is misleading to users posting anonymously on boards.ie's Personal Issues forum to suggest anything else than 'our best efforts you won't get trolled' as opposed to 'nobody will ever find out'.

In any anonymous post, if a copy were sent to the parties involved, chances are they'd recognise themselves quick enough.

I think we should pull the PI feed off twitter, but then perhaps use this issue as an opportunity to amend the charter or even post an announcement on PI about 'how anonymous is anonymous'?

tbh

seeing as the twitter thing has been going for a couple of weeks now, has anything actually happened?

Have the threads mentioned been inundated with new joiners / unregged posters offering any advice / bad advice?

the way I see it is, you post in PI to try and get as much advice as possible. The wider the audience, the wider the range of potential advice, the wider the shared experience of the audience.

If you're anonymous on boards, chances are you'll be anonymous on twitter. Of course there's a chance that a twitter user could see a post and work out who the OP is, but theres a chance a random user with a 5-year membership of boards could see the same post and work out who the OP is. If the OP is really that concerned about their anonymity, then I think it's bad advice to tell them they are safe as long as the post isn't tweeted.

shellyboo

Sparky wrote: »

I honestly see no difference between this and subscribing to PI on boards.
The difference is that boards_top is a mix of all boards topics including PI topics that are popular that I can see popup in my favourite twitter client.
Its not like its a ticker on sky news.

If people choose to follow the boards_top account then let them. I see no harm
I also see no harm in the fact that its no different than if they wanted to subscribe to this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/external.php?type=RSS2&f=127 as a live bookmark on firefox or google reader.

At the end of the day the content is there for all to see. Who wishes to choose to be in tune with it all/up to date etc etc is their business.

All this is doing is using another medium on the net.

Again, what about RTs and the public timeline? People who have never used, seen or heard of boards may now come across these threads without having to go look for them. Ok, no harm say some of you... but I think that posters should be made aware of that so they can amend the info they post accordingly.

Jonathan wrote: »

Why the pessimist viewpoint thaed/silverfish/shellyboo?

Perhaps increased traffic would lead to more people offering helpful advice?

Perhaps it will lead to someone being identified when they didn't want to be - perhaps that person wouldn't have posted to begin with if they knew the thread could be going out on Twitter.

monkeyfudge wrote: »

Personally I don't think it's about the frequency or the impact of the tweets.

It's just the labeling of peoples problems as 'popular' that seems a bit off.

+1

Wibbs wrote: »

Ditto on this, especially the bolded part. It's one or the other. If its restricted within Boards, then it should be restricted without. If not the latter, then what's the point of the former(this goes double if it's actively flagged by whomever to be on an external source.). Open it up to all and sundry or don't. Seems a fairly simple distinction regardless of one's personal stance on the matter.


If the "it's all on the internet" angle is true then Silverfish's point still stands. It is restricted on this part of the internet. Again either or. So someone make an actual decision; One or the other. A or B. BTW, ABish isn't a decision.

+ 1

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

It is misleading to users posting anonymously on boards.ie's Personal Issues forum to suggest anything else than 'our best efforts you won't get trolled' as opposed to 'nobody will ever find out'.

In any anonymous post, if a copy were sent to the parties involved, chances are they'd recognise themselves quick enough.

I think we should pull the PI feed off twitter, but then perhaps use this issue as an opportunity to amend the charter or even post an announcement on PI about 'how anonymous is anonymous'?

+ 1

tbh wrote: »

If you're anonymous on boards, chances are you'll be anonymous on twitter. Of course there's a chance that a twitter user could see a post and work out who the OP is, but theres a chance a random user with a 5-year membership of boards could see the same post and work out who the OP is. If the OP is really that concerned about their anonymity, then I think it's bad advice to tell them they are safe as long as the post isn't tweeted.

I'm not saying anyone's safe. I'm saying people have the right to know where their information is being disseminated. They can decide for themselves the risk after that.

tbh

shellyboo wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone's safe. I'm saying people have the right to know where their information is being disseminated. They can decide for themselves the risk after that.

ok, so you'd be happy enough if there was, say, a warning box that appears when you hit submit in PI to say "please note that information here may be published on ...." etc? that seems like a pretty sensible step whether or not the info goes to twitter.

bSlick

tbh wrote: »

the way I see it is, you post in PI to try and get as much advice as possible. The wider the audience, the wider the range of potential advice, the wider the shared experience of the audience.

Well thats not a view shared by the people who run boards.ie as PI is blocked from being searched, not possible to link to from within the site, etc.... As has been said, if that is the case it is a total double standard to have this twitter account broadcasting out PI threads. As Wibbs said, its either restricted or it's not.

seamus

shellyboo wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone's safe. I'm saying people have the right to know where their information is being disseminated. They can decide for themselves the risk after that.

Well here is my issue with it. Nothing has changed. When you ask "Where is this information being disseminated?", the answer is "everywhere". And that is how it has been since boards was started.

Although there's a tendancy to view boards.ie as something of a closed site, the simple fact of the matter is that everything you post on a public forum becomes public information and is liable to pop up anywhere, anytime. You are aware that a year or two back, every single public post made between 1998 and 2007 (I think) was made publically available for download to anyone who wanted it for academic purposes?

That's the issue with the internet that a lot of people just don't seem to get.

I personally think that the impact of twitter is being wildly overestimated here. The public timeline is a non-issue. Nobody routinely reads it as a source of information. Indexers might use it to consume the information, but then those indexers will already have their claws on boards.ie. Re-tweets have to be specifically posted. If someone subscribed to the feed wants to re-tweet it to their mates, then what's the difference between them doing that or simply posting the link on their feed? The impact is identical.

FTR to address a comment made earlier, there's no rule against posting a link to PI threads from other forums. There's a rule about *discussing* PI threads on other forums, but there's nothing wrong with a post where someone links to a similar or relevant issue raised in PI.

All that said, it should be worth from a taste point of view (I think this was MF's point) avoiding highlighting PI posts as "interesting" or "popular". Yes, they often are both interesting and popular, but it almost seems tantamount to saying, "Hey, look over here, this guy's having a ****ty time, it's a great read!".

shellyboo

tbh wrote: »

ok, so you'd be happy enough if there was, say, a warning box that appears when you hit submit in PI to say "please note that information here may be published on ...." etc? that seems like a pretty sensible step whether or not the info goes to twitter.

Well, personally I don't think they should be going out on Twitter at all. I think it's low, and kind of appalling, actually. I think there should be a warning at least.

I definitely agree that users aren't aware enough of how non-private PI is. But to me, this Twitter thing just seemed a step too far given the lengths we go to to protect PI users within boards. A warning of some sort would be an excellent idea for everyone.

The Recliner

I stayed out of this because I could kind of see both sides of the arguement and wanted to gather my thoughts on it

So here is my €00.2 based on the discussions so far

I have no issue with the Twitter feed and don't think there was any malicious intent in having PI threads on it

However with the way it is labelled it does kind of make it look like it is promoting them in a juicy gossip sort of way, it is almost as if the thread is going "Oh oh look at me, this problem is really interesting/funny"
That is my main issue with it and persoanally I think PI threads should be removed from it

It could have a positive effect and bring new and helpful posters to to the site and that would be fantastic but in answer to a previous question as to whether there has been a noticable impact since the Twitter feed went up there has been a huge increase in muppetry and bannings. This is probably just a coincidence and might just be to do with the time of year/school holidays etc, I haven't been PI mod long enough to know the trends

The arguement that PI threads are publicly available via Google etc is a valid one however every effort is made on Boards to protect PI threads so I don't see why that shouldn't apply here. Sure anyone could set up a feed which links to PI and I understand that Ross is doing this seperate from his job on Boards but I feel that if someone is a part of Boards be they User/Mod/Employee that every effort should be made to keep PI as private as possible

I understand where he is coming from too, there is a lot of helpful and interesting advice in PI that maybe the whole world should see but as this is a bot it can't differentiate between those and the ones that are a bit more personal and maybe shouldn't be promoted in this way

Darragh

Hey all

As Dav said, we're discussing this in the office this morning. We'll discuss removing Personal Issues feeds from the twitter feed, the front page (hot topics) and the popular feeds posts.

Also up for discussion is how this sort of thing should be brought to us (the people who make decisions on things like this) in future and how it will be dealt with and where.

Thanks everyone for your input - it's all very useful and as we continue to develop we'll be learning as we go.

Thanks

Darragh

shellyboo

Thanks Darragh

seamus

shellyboo wrote: »

I definitely agree that users aren't aware enough of how non-private PI is. But to me, this Twitter thing just seemed a step too far given the lengths we go to to protect PI users within boards.

Pimpey wrote: »

I have no issue with the Twitter feed and don't think there was any malicious intent in having PI threads on it

Yep, and I will defend Ross to the hilt on this one. He simply implemented what is in fact a great idea and a good way of using twitter's social networking functions to "push" interesting content to other people. I wouldn't have expected him (nor anyone else) to consider the "special case" of PI, particularly when it's not changing the exposure of PI.

Like all projects, tweaks are needed, special cases have to be identified, but I don't think being morally outraged or otherwise accusing anyone/anything of being insensitive is neither fair or constructive.

Nerin

seamus wrote: »

Yep, and I will defend Ross to the hilt on this one. He simply implemented what is in fact a great idea and a good way of using twitter's social networking functions to "push" interesting content to other people. I wouldn't have expected him (nor anyone else) to consider the "special case" of PI, particularly when it's not changing the exposure of PI.

Like all projects, tweaks are needed, special cases have to be identified, but I don't think being morally outraged or otherwise accusing anyone/anything of being insensitive is neither fair or constructive.

Completely agree with you on that.

tbh

bSlick wrote: »

Well thats not a view shared by the people who run boards.ie as PI is blocked from being searched, not possible to link to from within the site, etc.... As has been said, if that is the case it is a total double standard to have this twitter account broadcasting out PI threads. As Wibbs said, its either restricted or it's not.

fair point, yeah. I'm all about the consistency.

WindSock

If threads from PI/RI aren't allowed be posted on any other forum on Boards, then I don't see why they are allowed on Twitter. Just my €0.02c. Probably been said before though but not bothered reading through whole thread.

Edit: I don't think they should be removed from the front page of boards though. A lot of people may find and use PI this way.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

Yep, and I will defend Ross to the hilt on this one. He simply implemented what is in fact a great idea and a good way of using twitter's social networking functions to "push" interesting content to other people.

That's cool and fair play to Ross in implementing the whole twitter vibe with Boards. It will help with wider exposure of the site.

I wouldn't have expected him (nor anyone else) to consider the "special case" of PI, particularly when it's not changing the exposure of PI.

Frankly that's an utterly daft and incorrect statement. If it's not changing the exposure then why do it at all? Why bring twitter on board if it's not adding exposure to the site in general? That's it's purpose. Not rocket science folks.

Like all projects, tweaks are needed, special cases have to be identified, but I don't think being morally outraged or otherwise accusing anyone/anything of being insensitive is neither fair or constructive.

I would agree and I certainly don't think Ross meant a damn thing by it. Twitter is a shiny new toy and vector on the internet and he just added it on.

I will say though that I would have thought it pretty simple to see that PI is a special case. It is on Boards as a site. It's a semi private forum as it is in many ways. Private forums are already special cases and we wouldn't be twitting them, would we? Why? Oh yea, because it would increase their exposure.

shellyboo

seamus wrote: »

Yep, and I will defend Ross to the hilt on this one. He simply implemented what is in fact a great idea and a good way of using twitter's social networking functions to "push" interesting content to other people. I wouldn't have expected him (nor anyone else) to consider the "special case" of PI, particularly when it's not changing the exposure of PI.

Like all projects, tweaks are needed, special cases have to be identified, but I don't think being morally outraged or otherwise accusing anyone/anything of being insensitive is neither fair or constructive.

I definitely don't think there was any malicious intention, like I said in my OP, it's a fantastic idea. The PI issue obviously wasn't thought about at the time, but now that it is... I think it should be stopped, tbh. I think it would be insensitive to continue it. Either we try to protect PI or we don't. Publicising it on Twitter is such a contradiction to the measures the site has already taken that it just makes no sense to me.

That's me done on this anyway, it's being discussed. I'll be happy with whatever the Admins decide. Thanks everyone for your input on my very first feedback thread

ntlbell

shellyboo wrote: »

Well, personally I don't think they should be going out on Twitter at all. I think it's low, and kind of appalling, actually. I think there should be a warning at least.

I definitely agree that users aren't aware enough of how non-private PI is. But to me, this Twitter thing just seemed a step too far given the lengths we go to to protect PI users within boards. A warning of some sort would be an excellent idea for everyone.

I don't see what difference it makes at all.

currently personal issues can be viewed from anywhere in the world by anyone.

I don't see how having a timeline on twitter adds to the amount of people all ready able to view it.

People are coming to personal issues and knowingly putting their issue out on a public forum what difference does it make that it can be seen on twitter?

shellyboo

ntlbell wrote: »

I don't see what difference it makes at all.

currently personal issues can be viewed from anywhere in the world by anyone.

I don't see how having a timeline on twitter adds to the amount of people all ready able to view it.

People are coming to personal issues and knowingly putting their issue out on a public forum what difference does it make that it can be seen on twitter?

I've already outlined my points in the thread, ntlbell, not getting into them again If you're not a Twitter user, it may not seem all that bad to you.

seamus

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly that's an utterly daft and incorrect statement. If it's not changing the exposure then why do it at all? Why bring twitter on board if it's not adding exposure to the site in general? That's it's purpose. Not rocket science folks.

There's no point in sticking a "folks" in there as this is the first most of us are aware of this development.
That probably didn't come out exactly the way I wanted it. What I mean is that PI will in no way be negatively affected by this. I would put money on that. It would bring general traffic to boards.ie, but I can't see PI in particular suffering from any increased traffic. That is, someone might click the link, see "Ah yeah, that's interesting, what else has this site got to offer?". The aim is to bring traffic to the site overall, I don't think it would increase PI's exposure distinct from the rest of the site.

I will say though that I would have thought it pretty simple to see that PI is a special case. It is on Boards as a site. It's a semi private forum as it is in many ways. Private forums are already special cases and we wouldn't be twitting them, would we? Why? Oh yea, because it would increase their exposure.

Actually, we wouldn't be twitting them because they're private. PI isn't. Therefore you wouldn't automatically think of it. You would however automatically think of private forums.

ntlbell

shellyboo wrote: »

I've already outlined my points in the thread, ntlbell, not getting into them again If you're not a Twitter user, it may not seem all that bad to you.

I use twitter but I don't see how that's relevant to my points.

"i'm currently going for a large poo"

Nerin

I really don't understand your reasoning windsock,maybe you'll spell it out to me like the other did with the twitter thing.

You don't want more people coming to pi with their problems through twitter. I get the reasons.
But you want PI on the front page for more people to see it? Correct me if i messed that up,its still fairly early

Wibbs,its hardly daft,and i think pi mods/(former mod in your case) aren't helping the discussion with what appears to be angry or forceful statements. How is it daft? I wouldn't have bothered thinking about pi at all until shell brought up the thread. Its not some uber important forum,its as important as any forum.
Theres a nasty sense of throwing toys out of the pram and making this a bigger issue than it is,and that stinks.

Fair play to shell for starting the thread,but it needn't have been brought to such a crazy level.

Edit-and its not semi private,or special or anything. Its a public forum.

Irish Halo

Everyone knows any random person can just take the PI RSS feed and create a Twitter account from it so that not only popular threads but EVERY single PI would be disseminated further right?

Or is the problem that the random person was a Boards employee?