United Ireland

daniel91

Jakkass wrote: »

Why is it worth going to such lengths to get? It's this kind of mentality that gets me thinking that such nationalism is dangerous. I'd honestly prefer if people would toss the nationalism aside and just get into the issue of how we can better relate to eachother as human beings. At the end of the day that's what we all are, human beings deserving of respect.



By Irish Volunteers, I presume you are talking about the Provisional IRA. Let's be honest, those lives were wasted, just as much as the lives of the victims were wasted. Those people could have left this world a better place. Families destroyed no doubt. Was it worth it?

Don't get me wrong, i would be 100% content if things stayed the way they are with no voilence. I'm behind the peace process and hope it succeds. I'm just saying that one day i'd like to see a 32 county state, and thats the only way i can see it happening, even though i don't agree with it.

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

Whiskey Devil

Jakkass wrote: »

One could argue that about Paisley, but if there isn't anything concrete to back up the accusation it falls on deaf ears. People would have to actively go through transcripts of his speeches (including within the walls of Free Presbyterian Churches on Sundays) and see if he has ever encouraged the killing of anyone in Northern Ireland.

He has more or less said it in public (around the time of the Anglo-Irish agreement) but I'm too lazy to look for videos.

Whiskey Devil

daniel91 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, i would be 100% content if things stayed the way they are with no voilence. I'm behind the peace process and hope it succeds. I'm just saying that one day i'd like to see a 32 county state, and thats the only way i can see it happening, even though i don't agree with it.

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

I don't see why another 'Bloody Sunday' would change anything. The Republic basically abandoned the Irish people in the north for the majority of the troubles. If anything, people would do less.

philologos

daniel91 wrote: »

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

There is no difference between killing for political beliefs, than killing for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is even a noble aim to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

daniel91

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no difference between dying for political beliefs, than dying for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is a noble aim even to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

Well what about Catholics that were dicriminated against. The armed sruggle oringinally started during the Civil Rights movement. A young Protestent couple getting a consil house before a single mother with 5 or 6 children, just because they were catholic. They did'nt just die for a United Ireland the dyed for the right to be treated equally.

Whiskey Devil

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no difference between dying for political beliefs, than dying for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is even a noble aim to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

That's all well and good if you live in la-la land. Humans have been at war since the dawn of man. Sometimes aggression has to be fought with aggression. Yes, we would all like to live in a peaceful world, but it's not human nature and it's not reality.

Stev_o

daniel91 wrote: »

Well what about Catholics that were dicriminated against. The armed sruggle oringinally started during the Civil Rights movement. A young Protestent couple getting a consil house before a single mother with 5 or 6 children, just because they were catholic. They did'nt just die for a United Ireland the dyed for the right to be treated equally.

Sorry but the Catholic population in the North did not help themselves, between the Catholic Church opposing universal education where religion would be left at the door to the others that ignored the blackout during WW2 and openly burned their issued gas masks to people refusing to join the NIC even when there was 1/4 of places reserved for Catholics.

It's easy to make a group of people a target if they openly defy any sort of government in place.

Purple Gorilla

DoireNod wrote: »

I have and always will support Irish independence, since I am of the belief that it is right - the same way James Connolly and the rest of the lads did.

Regardless of the economic, social or whatever implications, the idea of Irish independence is one which I think is entirely righteous and as such, is completely worth pursuing. The principle of freedom is always worth pursuing, I believe.

I don't like the attitude that has developed in recent years, among some elements of society in the Republic, which views 'Northern Ireland' and the people who live there as foreign. It doesn't help things and frankly, it's insulting to the many Irish people in the North, not just myself.

And you'd be willing to risk the financial stability of the Republic for this?

PaulieD

Larkin501 wrote: »

Doesn't bother me. I'll leave the country as soon as I leave college if I can :pac:

Arent you great? Slan leat.

minidazzler

Not a chance, there is very little Private industry in NI, it's all govt sponsered infrastructure by the British, if we had control we would have to pay for that crap!!!!! Not a chance in hell.

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

Not a chance, there is very little Private industry in NI, it's all govt sponsered infrastructure by the British, if we had control we would have to pay for that crap!!!!! Not a chance in hell.

Couple of years ago west Brits were against a UI as it would "ruin our economy", now its "but we cannot afford it".

The re-unification of the Irish nation does not have a price. Not all things are about money, something west Brits will never understand.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

Couple of years ago west Brits were against a UI as it would "ruin our economy", now its "but we cannot afford it".

The re-unification of the Irish nation does not have a price. Not all things are about money, something west Brits will never understand.

Re-unification????? The only time the whole Island of Ireland was united under one flag was when the British ruled all of Ireland. NEVER before that was this the case. There were princes and kings all over the place with their own little kingdoms.

PaulieD

pablomakaveli wrote: »

West Brit my arse. You're the bigger traitor to your country by supporting something that could ruin the Republic. I'm a firm nationalist and no so called "Republican" can tell me otherwise.

You are anything but an Irish nationalist. You support the continued occupation of Irish soil.

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

Re-unification????? The only time the whole Island of Ireland was united under one flag was when the British ruled all of Ireland. NEVER before that was this the case. There were princes and kings all over the place with their own little kingdoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland

Read. And. Weep. West. Brit.

super_furry

Northern Ireland is a headache that the Republic doesn't need. Aside from the financial implications of integration into the Republic – there's no private industry in the North - there's the practical problems.

If a majority in the North decided in a referendum that they want to join the Republic in a United Ireland – which is unlikely to happen – then and only then should it be considered. However, there's no way that Unionists would acquiesce to such a decision and we'd have the troubles start up again. There'd be a bombing campaign against the Republic similar to the one that the IRA waged on the UK and there'd be hundreds of lives lost.

Independence for Northern Ireland, from the Republic and Britain, is the only way forward.

super_furry

PaulieD wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland

Read. And. Weep. West. Brit.

8th century. Should we base all geo-political decisions on things that may have happened 1200 years ago?

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland

Read. And. Weep. West. Brit.

Read the two top bits. Factual accuracy is disputed and the Neutrality is disputed. Find a proven 100% true source.

Sorry, I am not actually a west Brit, I like to think of myself as a citizen of Europe.


The FACT of the matter is that the only Flag Ireland has ever been united under is the Union Jack.

PaulieD

super_furry wrote: »

8th century. Should we base all geo-political decisions on things that may have happened 1200 years ago?

Ask Israel about that. No, seriously I am just proving a point, Ireland was united before.

*Back on topic.

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

Sorry, I am not actually a west Brit, I like to think of myself as a citizen of Europe.

You are an Irish citizen. You might not like it, but its a fact. The EU is not a country.

minidazzler wrote: »

The FACT of the matter is that the only Flag Ireland has ever been united under is the Union Jack.

I well aware of that and with "citizens of europe" like you around, it may never change.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

Ask Israel about that. No, seriously I am just proving a point, Ireland was united before.

*Back on topic.

No it wasn't not really, to say it's united is to say there was no infighting, which there was alot of.

Simply put you are wrong.

PaulieD wrote:

I well aware of that and with "citizens of europe" like you around, it may never change.

Well Ideally it will change, to all of Europe being united under one government. I'd be happy with that.

Oh and Citizenship is the state of being a citizen of one community. My Community happens to be the European Community.

Stev_o

PaulieD wrote: »

Ask Israel about that. No, seriously I am just proving a point, Ireland was united before.

*Back on topic.

Please infrom us more of this united Ireland. Is there any evidence to suggest that one person had direct control over the country in any shape of form (diplomatically or military)?

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

No it wasn't not really, to say it's united is to say there was no infighting, which there was alot of.

Simply put you are wrong.

Every sovereign nation experiences "infighting", my "citizen of europe" friend.

PaulieD

Stev_o wrote: »

Please infrom us more of this united Ireland. Is there any evidence to suggest that one person had direct control over the country in any shape of form (diplomatically or military)?

As much as could be expected in the 8th century.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

Every sovereign nation experiences "infighting", my "citizen of europe" friend.

Political infighting is not the same as people from the various Clans in Old Ireland waging Total war.

super_furry

minidazzler wrote: »

Political infighting is not the same as people from the various Clans in Old Ireland waging Total war.

And regardless of whether it is or not, it's founds no basis for making decisions 1,200 years later.

Stev_o

PaulieD wrote: »

As much as could be expected in the 8th century.

Which is what some man saying he's the King of Ireland despite having no power and recognition?

minidazzler

Stev_o wrote: »

Which is what some man saying he's the King of Ireland despite having no power and recognition?

Oh oh oh, If I say I am King of Ireland it makes it true right?

dlofnep

Yes, of course I'd support it. Ireland was partitioned under non-democratic means, and the will of the Irish people was not respected. We should always seek to re-unite this country, and thankfully we have the GFA to achieve that through peaceful means.

The majority of the people of Ireland & Britain support Irish Unity. That's a fact.

minidazzler

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, of course I'd support it. Ireland was partitioned under non-democratic means, and the will of the Irish people was not respected. We should always seek to re-unite this country, and thankfully we have the GFA to achieve that through peaceful means.

We have cancelled our claim to it, true we could get it eventually, but it's highly unlikely.

Before there is ever a united Ireland there will be a united Europe.

PaulieD

super_furry wrote: »

And regardless of whether it is or not, it's founds no basis for making decisions 1,200 years later.

Did I say it was? I was proving a point.

*Back on topic.

I would support a United Ireland 100%.

dlofnep

minidazzler wrote: »

We have cancelled our claim to it, true we could get it eventually, but it's highly unlikely.

While it does give up territorial claim as a matter of default, it does not give up the right to determine the future of Ireland, by the people of Ireland and Ireland alone.

“that it is for the people of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a United Ireland, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland”.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

Did I say it was? I was proving a point.

*Back on topic.

I would support a United Ireland 100%.

But your point is a fallacy.

dlofnep wrote:

While it does give up territorial claim as a matter of default, it does not give up the right to determine the future of Ireland, by the people of Ireland and Ireland alone.

True but the chances are there will be a totally united Europe before this ever happens.

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

there will be a united Europe.

How many times will be forced to vote on that, until we give the right answer?

Purple Gorilla

minidazzler wrote: »

We have cancelled our claim to it, true we could get it eventually, but it's highly unlikely.

Before there is ever a united Ireland there will be a united Europe.

That doesn't necessarily mean either will happen I like the EU but a Federal Europe is a big no-no.

I support a United Ireland but only when both sides are ready and in that case, it won't be for a long time. We just can't afford it. Even during the boom times we couldn't afford it.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

How many times will be forced to vote on that, until we give the right answer?

I don't know, but I will be voting yes everytime.

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

I don't know, but I will be voting yes everytime.

You will be voting yes to future treaties you know nothing about at present? Ok.

AckwelFoley

united Ireland?

Couldnt give a fiddelers fcuk

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

You will be voting yes to future treaties you know nothing about at present? Ok.

Yup, simply because I realise certain political parties will be urging the Irish people to vote no.

Also, what bad things have Europe made Ireland do ever?

Whiskey Devil

snyper wrote: »

united Ireland?

Couldnt give a fiddelers fcuk

Wow, you're cool.



What's with all this United Europe sh*t? No chance.

Purple Gorilla

minidazzler wrote: »

Yup, simply because I realise certain political parties will be urging the Irish people to vote no.

Also, what bad things have Europe made Ireland do ever?

TBH That's a pretty stupid reason to vote yes to future treaties.

Anyway, isn't the Lisbon Treaty the last treaty because of the German Constitutional Court ruling?

AckwelFoley

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

Wow, you're cool.



.

Why? Because im not a bitter republican prick?

PaulieD

minidazzler wrote: »

Yup, simply because I realise certain political parties will be urging the Irish people to vote no.

Also, what bad things have Europe made Ireland do ever?

-Mass immigration and cheap labour.
-Interest rates.
-Common Fisheries Policy

To name but a few.

PaulieD

snyper wrote: »

Why? Because im not a bitter republican prick?

I am not a republican, but I support a United Ireland. Also, I wouldnt post on a thread that I had no interest in just to get a reaction.

Lexus1976

Been working up the North on an off now for the past 3 months, stayed their last weekend. Great place, never been in any trouble.

What I dont understand is the fact that certain individuals in the loyalist areas feel the compulsion to go out to a DIY store and buy tones of red, white and blue paint to colour in the kerbs, how old are they 12?

And they dont stop at painting kerbs, poles, letter box and signs some have painted fecking trees, forgive me for thinking these are individuals with a very low IQ.

Not to mention hanging flags at every opportunity. Was up in the Giants Causeway passed through a lovely village not far from the attraction, and guess what they had flags hanging outside every cafe and pub. You'd think any normal business man would want to earn money from being located so close to the biggest attaction in NI, but no they seem to alienate most of the tourists from stoping off at these villages. Different strokes for different folks.

So in my opinion even though most of the individuals i've had dealing with are the nicest people i've met in a long time, there is that element that will bring NI down. Therefore no, i'm happy where not a united country. Perhaps until these individuals grow up, hindsight.

minidazzler

PaulieD wrote: »

-Mass immigration and cheap labour.
-Interest rates.
-Common Fisheries Policy

To name but a few.

Finacial Aid
No Border controls
Roads
more roads
Tunnels
Trading partners.


They have given us alot more than we have given them,

Who are we to complain about Mass Immigration and Cheap Labour?

Interest rates? That's a World problem not just Europe.

Common Fisheries, Sharing is caring.

AckwelFoley

PaulieD wrote: »

I am not a republican, but I support a United Ireland. Also, I wouldnt post on a thread that I had no interest in just to get a reaction.

so if ive voted for no or not bothered im looking for a reaction?

:rolleyes:

Whiskey Devil

snyper wrote: »

Why? Because im not a bitter republican prick?

No, because you say really cool things in grown up discussions such as 'couldnt give a fiddlers fcuk'

minidazzler

snyper wrote: »

so if ive voted for no or not bothered im looking for a reaction?

:rolleyes:

Sure according to paulie here everyone who doesn't want a united ireland is a West Brit.

Whiskey Devil wrote:

No, because you say really cool things in grown up discussions such as 'couldnt give a fiddlers fcuk'

Is he not entitled to his opinion?

Whiskey Devil

Lexus1976 wrote: »

Been working up the North on an off now for the past 3 months, stayed their last weekend. Great place, never been in any trouble.

What I dont understand is the fact that certain individuals in the loyalist areas feel the compulsion to go out to a DIY store and buy tones of red, white and blue paint to colour in the kerbs, how old are they 12?

And they dont stop at painting kerbs, poles, letter box and signs some have painted fecking trees, forgive me for thinking these are individuals with a very low IQ.

Not to mention hanging flags at every opportunity. Was up in the Giants Causeway passed through a lovely village not far from the attraction, and guess what they had flags hanging outside every cafe and pub. You'd think any normal business man would want to earn money from being located so close to the biggest attaction in NI, but no they seem to alienate most of the tourists from stoping off at these villages. Different strokes for different folks.

So in my opinion even though most of the individuals i've had dealing with are the nicest people i've met in a long time, there is that element that will bring NI down. Therefore no, i'm happy where not a united country. Perhaps until these individuals grow up, hindsight.

Very good post. Agree with everything you've said.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Yes, I would love it. When you think about it it would pretty much put the I.R.A to bed 'cause what would they have left to fight for?