United Ireland

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PaulieD wrote: »

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Ask some employers. The East Europeans particualry have VERY good reputations. Employers want profit. They will hire the best, regardless of where it comes from.



Now, why would big business be singing the praises of eastern european labour? Would it be that they are cheap?:rolleyes:

Some of them are great workers, just like us Irish. Some are lazy, just like us Irish. Irish workers are just as good as anyone else. In fact, in some sectors, like hospitality, they are much better than immigrants, local knowledge, english speaking etc etc.

In future, please stop peddling lies. Eastern europeans do need a work permit to work in Germany and Austria.

Like Austria, Germany has insisted on continuing restrictions on workers from the former communist states, beyond its eastern borders. Workers from these countries will have to apply for work permits before 2011. However, Germany issued 500,000 of these permits between 2004 and 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3513889.stm

Right, just did a bit of research here (asked some flatmates and a next-door neighbours from Poland, Romania and Lithuania) and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Apparently, they need an "allowance" for unskilled labour (construction work, bar, waitressing) in the form of an employer's letter. This can be gotten very easily, though. Skilled labour requires no visa or allowance. Poland is exempted from this.

I don't see how this will change things in Ireland? Employers will continue to hire foreign staff, they'll just have to write a letter to do so.

I take your point about some foreign workers are hard workign and some are lazy just as the Irish are, but ask yourself: why are employers hiring foreign staff? The the wage-bill argument makes no sense because, in the present climate, most Irish looking for a job will take one at minimum wage.

stovelid

PaulieD wrote: »

Couple of years ago west Brits were against a UI as it would "ruin our economy", now its "but we cannot afford it".

Tut-tut. Three pages in.

AH is sliding.

PaulieD

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

PaulieD wrote: »

Right, just did a bit of research here (asked some flatmates and a next-door neighbours from Poland, Romania and Lithuania) and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Apparently, they need an "allowance" for unskilled labour (construction work, bar, waitressing) in the form of an employer's letter. This can be gotten very easily, though. Skilled labour requires no visa or allowance. Poland is exempted from this.

I don't see how this will change things in Ireland? Employers will continue to hire foreign staff, they'll just have to write a letter to do so.

I take your point about some foreign workers are hard workign and some are lazy just as the Irish are, but ask yourself: why are employers hiring foreign staff? The the wage-bill argument makes no sense because, in the present climate, most Irish looking for a job will take one at minimum wage.

We have gone miles off-topic, with this one. We will agree to disagree, you as an immigrant will always stick up for immigrants coming to Ireland. But it is the Irish worker who will be effected, not you. Remember that.:)

PS It sounds like your pals are illegals.

An Fear Aniar

Anyone in favour of a United British isles? It seems unfair that the British isles should be partitioned when the majority of the people want to be ruled by London.

.

PaulieD

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Anyone in favour of a United British isles? It seems unfair that the British isles should be partitioned when the majority of the people want to be ruled by London.

.

What the what what what?:eek:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

PaulieD wrote: »

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

We have gone miles off-topic, with this one. We will agree to disagree, you as an immigrant will always stick up for immigrants coming to Ireland. But it is the Irish worker who will be effected, not you. Remember that.:)

Agree to disagree? Your argument makes no sense - it will not bring any worthwhile changes to the economy!

But yes. Off topic. And for the record, I'd be up for a Unite Ireland if it were achieved peacefulyl and with the consent of both sides of the divide.

PaulieD

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

PaulieD wrote: »

Agree to disagree? Your argument makes no sense - it will not bring any worthwhile changes to the economy!

But yes. Off topic. And for the record, I'd be up for a Unite Ireland if it were achieved peacefulyl and with the consent of both sides of the divide.

The eastern european superworker has sent 1.5 billion euro home last year. Thats money gone out of the economy. Most are on minimum wage so they pay little or no tax. Now, once they lose their jobs, they are entitled to 204 euro a week, rent allowance, child allowance, medical cards, etc etc. They are now a drain on the economy. As I said, we should have issued a work permit system, just like Germany and Austria. At present we have a free for all, its madness.

What is the point of creating jobs when 90% of them go to immigrants, who by and large, send most of their disposable income home, thus it is more money gone out of the economy.

stovelid

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

I'm no economic expert, but surely if the six counties were incorporated into a 32 county economy there would be need to 'prop up' anybody.
Isn't the reason it cost the British so much money is because 1. it's so small (even the British didn't expect NI to last) 2. their military presence there for the last 40 years 3. they've have to rebuild it after 30 years of war.

They've got an even bigger civil service than us. The North is one of the most economically depressed regions of the UK.

As for policing and military costs, what do think they'll be when policing a cart-load of disgruntled and murderous Loyalists is being paid for out of your taxes?

PaulieD

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Don't forget Brittany, a Unity of 'Celtic' nations perhaps?

Sounds just as idiotic as your wet dream of an European superstate.

PaulieD

stovelid wrote: »

They've got an even bigger civil service than us. The North is one of the most economically depressed regions of the UK.

I think you are being very harsh here, the rest of the UK was not a warzone for the past few decades. The six has enjoyed a major revamp recently, with a lot of companies investing in the area. It is the most beautiful part of Ireland. Visit the place. You might like it.:)

stovelid wrote: »

As for policing and military costs, what do think they'll be when policing a cart-load of disgruntled and murderous Loyalists is being paid for out of your taxes?

We have billions to spend on Irish Aid. Not to mention our armed forces. Time for them to earn their keep.

Sofiztikated

This is exactly why i don't like talking politics.

I'm speaking as a Protestant (admittedly not a practicing one), a former (almost) member of the Orange Lodge, and an Irish man, the unity of Ireland would be nice in theory, BUT it would be terrible for the country.

Financially, economically and socially, the Republic would not be able to handle it.

Call me whatever you want, I'm Irish, born and bred, but I can see past the ****e that this topic stirs.

pablomakaveli

PaulieD wrote: »

The eastern european superworker has sent 1.5 billion euro home last year. Thats money gone out of the economy.

I actually heard this kind of argument made by a Ku Klux Klan member at an anti-immagration rally on a documentry i watched this week about the KKK.

Just replace eastern european with mexican and euros with dollars.

Maybe you could peddle that fact on Stormfront.

Hagar

Why would anybody be ashamed of being Irish? Makes no sense.

ejmaztec

Hagar wrote: »

Are Portsmouth on the telly anywhere today? :P

Must be into injury time, after which FF will be on here for a penalty shoot-out.:eek:

stovelid

PaulieD wrote: »

Visit the place. You might like it.:)

I lived in Belfast for over four years, and still visit the North on a very regular basis.

PaulieD wrote: »

We have billions to spend on Irish Aid.

??

Purple Gorilla

Hagar wrote: »

Why would anybody be ashamed of being Irish? Makes no sense.

TBH looking at After Hours, quite a lot of people. They just love hating Ireland for some reason

Hagar

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Financially, economically and socially, the Republic would not be able to handle it.

You might be right, the Republic might not be able to handle it, alone, but wouldn't we have the acumen, expertise and manpower of our Northern brothers to contribute to the New Ireland? Or is everybody writing them off as a drain on the New Ireland? I certainly am not. I see them as more hands on deck, more shoulders to the wheel. We will all be working together for our collective country won't we?

PaulieD

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I actually heard this kind of argument made by a Ku Klux Klan member at an anti-immagration rally on a documentry i watched this week about the KKK.

Just replace eastern european with mexican and euros with dollars.

Maybe you could peddle that fact on Stormfront.

Ah and the race card comes out. Eastern europeans are sending 1.5 billion home per annum, how does this benefit the Irish economy? 90% of all jobs go to immigrants, how does this benefit the Irish worker?


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-out-of-10-favour-immigration-restrictions-1794640.html

Are they all racists too?

dlofnep

PaulieD wrote: »

90% of all jobs go to immigrants, how does this benefit the Irish worker?

Source?

ejmaztec

PaulieD wrote: »

I think you are being very harsh here, the rest of the UK was not a warzone for the past few decades. The six has enjoyed a major revamp recently, with a lot of companies investing in the area. It is the most beautiful part of Ireland. Visit the place. You might like it.:)

The fact that they didn't find their way down here would probably mean that, with a united Ireland, you wouldn't see them for dust.

PaulieD wrote: »

We have had billions to spend on Irish Aid. Not to mention our armed forces. Time for them to earn their keep.

pablomakaveli

PaulieD wrote: »

Ah and the race card comes out. Eastern europeans are sending 1.5 billion home per annum, how does this benefit the Irish economy? 90% of all jobs go to immigrants, how does this benefit the Irish worker?


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/seven-out-of-10-favour-immigration-restrictions-1794640.html

Are they all racists too?

Well the taxes paid by all the immigrant workers help pay the dole of the unemployed and prop up the state generally.

Also eastern europeans are of the same race as us.

PaulieD

dlofnep wrote: »

Source?

I have already supplied a link on this very thread. But to save you the search, http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0815/1218747922416.html

PaulieD

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Well the taxes paid by all the immigrant workers help pay the dole of the unemployed and prop up the state generally.

Minimum wage workers pay little or no tax and the bare minimum PRSI payments.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Also eastern europeans are of the same race as us.

Then why did you compare me to the Klu Klux Klan, genius?

I repeat, "
a LARGE majority believe immigration from new EU member states into Ireland should be restricted because the perilous economic situation means we no longer have enough jobs, a Sunday Independent poll has revealed.
Nearly seven out of ten Irish people now want the inflow of foreign nationals to be curtailed fearing that further new arrivals will strain the social welfare system."

Are these all racist too?

grenache

A united Ireland - No thank you. I find a lot of the Nationalists have chips on their shoulders towards us 'Free Staters'. As for the Unionists, well they're on another planet altogether. They still think we're all papists and are scheming ways to take over the six counties. They're a community of people with a siege mentality. I wouldn't like to live with either group.


It would never be truly united anyway as the Unionist population would socially defy any Dublin 32 county goverment.

Sofiztikated

Hagar wrote: »

You might be right, the Republic might not be able to handle it, alone, but wouldn't we have the acumen, expertise and manpower of our Northern brothers to contribute to the New Ireland? Or is everybody writing them off as a drain on the New Ireland? I certainly am not. I see them as more hands on deck, more shoulders to the wheel. We will all be working together for our collective country won't we?

But set it up? Would cost millions!

pablomakaveli

PaulieD wrote: »

Then why did you compare me to the Klu Klux Klan, genius?

Because your spouting the same far-right tripe as they do, "genius".

PaulieD

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Because your spouting the same far-right tripe as they do, "genius".

So if somebody calls for more stringent immigration controls that means they are de-facto right wing? Riiiiiight, lefty logic at its best.

almostnever

*is selfish*

Nah,I like being able to go over the border and get stuff dirt cheap to be honest.

ejmaztec

PaulieD wrote: »

Minimum wage workers pay little or no tax and the bare minimum PRSI payments.

As do Irish people on a minimum wage.

Purple Gorilla

Hagar wrote: »

You might be right, the Republic might not be able to handle it, alone, but wouldn't we have the acumen, expertise and manpower of our Northern brothers to contribute to the New Ireland? Or is everybody writing them off as a drain on the New Ireland? I certainly am not. I see them as more hands on deck, more shoulders to the wheel. We will all be working together for our collective country won't we?

They don't really have much to offer. 63% (compared to 36% here) of the workforce is Public Sector and they have a GDP Per Capita of just £19,000 (compared to something like €39,000 or €40,000 here)
If NI leaves the UK, who will pay the €7.4 billion subvention that they usually get from the UK to keep them afloat?

For a country that loves to complain about the Public Sector Wage bill, are we really willing to add hundreds of thousands more people to that bill?

Hagar

A new identity? Maybe. A new outlook definitely. We could then deal with our neighbours as equals not with the shame that hangs over us now like a cloud. Deep down I believe every one of us feels a ashamed that we have never fully overcome the invader. We are ashamed that we left our brothers to rot and hid our head in the sand to their cries for help.

A lot of people won't admit it but I believe that it is behind our so called "neutrality" policy. We are not neutral, we never were, we just cannot stand and fight shoulder to shoulder with Britain against a common enemy as long as Britain occupies our country. When they get out and leave us to determine our own destiny only then will we take our place amongst the nations of the earth.

An Fear Aniar

PaulieD wrote: »

What the what what what?:eek:

The geographical unit, the British isles.

The majority want to be ruled by London, it's only us throwbacks that don't want to join up with the rest.

It makes sense that the two offshore islands of Europe should be one political unit and the majority do want that, so why don't we get rid of this partition and join the majority?

.

PaulieD

ejmaztec wrote: »

As do Irish people on a minimum wage.

I know that. Welfare was set up as a safety net for those, who through no fault of their own, fell on hard times. Now it is a fishing net for over 80,000 immigrants. A foreign worker can work here for two years on minimum wage, contribute little or nothing, then, if they lose their job they can live off the taxpayer. Get 204 euro a week, medical card, rent allowance, child allowance etc etc. It is a crazy situation.

PaulieD

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

They don't really have much to offer. 63% (compared to 36% here) of the workforce is Public Sector and they have a GDP Per Capita of just £19,000 (compared to something like €39,000 or €40,000 here)
If NI leaves the UK, who will pay the €7.4 billion subvention that they usually get from the UK to keep them afloat?

For a country that loves to complain about the Public Sector Wage bill, are we really willing to add hundreds of thousands more people to that bill?

You are using the same argument the unionists did in the 20's and 60's. If we joined with the papists they would bankrupt us. It is funny how things go full circle.

Yellowblackbird

snyper wrote: »

If you go back far enough thats how many countries were formed. The only difference between that and what you say is time

Well I am far from an expert but I cannot think of a single other country that was 'formed' on that basis. Anyway that is beside the point. The question is would any such country ever formed on such a basis have a legitimate or moral basis. Any nation state that you care to mention has a distinct geographic homeland. Within this there is a distinct people with a unique culture and language and critically a universal sense of themselves and the region as being seperate and distinct from others. You will not have found this in NI as it was as invention in the mind of an english civil servant in 1922 doing up a Jerrymander, and had not then, or any time before or since an actual basis in reality of the people, the culture or the heritage on this island.
These other countries that you suppose were formed on the same basis...name one please.

Stev_o

PaulieD wrote: »

You are using the same argument the unionists did in the 20's and 60's. If we joined with the papists they would bankrupt us. It is funny how things go full circle.

Do enlighten us to how the unification of NI to the Republic could be in anyway financially viable.

grenache

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

It makes sense that the two offshore islands of Europe should be one political unit and the majority do want that, so why don't we get rid of this partition and join the majority?

The majority of the population of the island of Ireland do not wish to be part of the United Kingdom.


Also, Irish people are not throwbacks.

blinding

The unification of Ireland is a legitimate aspiration for nationalists/republicans.

The big question is how can this be best achieved.

I believe that any violent action to bring this about would be wrong and in any case counter productive.

There is certainly a large number of people on the island of Ireland that would like unification to be achieved.

The wishs of such a large number of people should not be ignored.

KINGofHEARTS

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Simple question

Would you support or like to have a united Ireland ? ? ?

Gets popcorn!

Pity I missed the start of the show!

celticfan32

Thats a definite yes from too. There are 32 counties in this beautiful country of ours and the brits have no right what so ever to be here. Just a damn greedy nation who cant even look after their own country

mike65

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Actually why do Unionists in the North have such a love for the crown? Blind nationalism. I wish they would open their eyes.

Why do Nationalists in the North (hey you do know that a good republican does not Capitalise the N don't you?) want to be ruled by Dublin? Blind nationalism. I wish they would open thier eyes.

grenache

If a United Ireland did come about, you would have a situation where recently disarmed groups like the UVF and LVF would re-arm, and take the fight to the cities and towns in the south of the country. I have no wish to see Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, etc, having to go through what towns in the North have been through for the last 40 years.

Dudess

My heart wants it, my head doesn't.

blinding

NBB Bohs wrote: »

Very right, but would people be willing to actually embrace the north if they were told that your quality of life would drop for a number of years. I presume its not as easy as just 'bang, now a united ireland' woot.

Also the situation in the North is very complex, I know open-minded middle class people(just from internet) who would still see themselves as British first(Irish/European second or third or irish or european not at all) imagine what its like in working class parts???

Also many people who would probably ideally vote for a united ireland in the north, would use their head rather than their heart if it came to a vote and opt against it.

Realistically unification is only going to come about by peaceful evolution.

If nationalist/republicans put forward a more inclusive and egalitarian future vision than those that are against unification then perhaps their vision will come to fruition.

This vision would have to be a much broader view of Irishness than exists at the present time. It will also have to incorporate a connection with britain (culturally and even politically) that Irish nationalism/republicanism has not yet come to terms with.

Purple Gorilla

PaulieD wrote: »

You are using the same argument the unionists did in the 20's and 60's. If we joined with the papists they would bankrupt us. It is funny how things go full circle.

And it's quite a valid argument. We cannot afford it.

Dudess

celticfan32 wrote: »

the brits have no right what so ever to be here. Just a damn greedy nation who cant even look after their own country

This isn't even of relevance to "the Brits" - I'd imagine they'd hand it over in a flash.

pablomakaveli

A united Ireland would also probably mean having to abandon our national anthem, possibly our flag, pump as much money into ulster-scots as is put into Irish and loads of other sacrifices.

I don't want to see these sacrifices made for a group of people who i do not want to share a country with in the first place.

PaulieD

NBB Bohs wrote: »

And people like PaulieD claim to have the best interests of the country in mind. Ah yes, object to people on the dole who have worked for 2 years and claim we have too much immigrants which leads to a worse ireland but create a situation whereby people could be killed by nationalistic maniacs blowing people up in the name of Unionism all for a piece of land.

Peace first, everything else after that.

Yes, I do not want my taxes subsidising foreigners who are here a wet day. You show your ignorance on the issue, my foreign amigo. The loyalists bombings where aided and abetted by the British army. They couldnt have carried them out by themselves. Collusion is not an illusion.;)

If a United Ireland came about, through peaceful methods, I strongly belief it would work. Unionists need to be coerced into a United Ireland, not bombed into one.

PS, why have Sinn Fein not produced a white paper on re-unification. I asked my local councillor about this when he come a knockin' looking for votes. Got nothing but mumbles out of him. I gave him my vote alright, 9th preference.

PaulieD

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

And it's quite a valid argument. We cannot afford it.

The Brits would have to help financially for the transition. They caused the problem, in fairness.

Re-unification of the Irish nation is more important than money.

mike65

If this has been covered stop me, but has anyone who is desperate for a United Ireland considered how it would be achived from a constitutional point of view? Is it to be assumed that the current edition of Bunreacht na hEireann would take charge of the new unified state the day after a YES vote? I imagine there would be no end of little time bombs in that document if it were applied to the exisiting social fabric of Norn Iron.

So a new constitution would be needed, which would mean a panel representing all ethos and parties north and south would have to be assembled to thrash out a new legal settlement. That would be fun.

Even before then you'd have to reach an agreement on what voting arrangment and threshold would be used. A vote on both sides of the border? Yes one presumes as the southern voter would be picking up the tab for decades. What threshold? 50% plus 1 vote? Thats a bit low for such a huge undertaking some might say. Maybe it would be 60/40 or 2/3rd yes vote required on both sides of border.

What chance of achieving that? Esp once the romance of the idea has been put to one side and the estimated euros and cents have being added up.