United Ireland

philologos

Hagar wrote: »

The land isn't foreign the people living on it are.
That soil is Irish, those people are Scots. After 400 years they still have their Scots accent for heaven's sake. The Vikings came and settled, the Normans came and settled, when was the last time you heard a Viking or a Norman accent?

I think you'll find that even the first Irish had to come to Ireland some way. Are they foreign too?

I feel that they are no more foreign than I am. Mind you, perhaps I'm foreign too :pac:

liamygunner29

For me it's simple..Im Irish I therefore belive that my island of Ireland should be ruled by one Irish Government. Its basic sense.

However this is now impossible, weather he was right or wrong to sign up we will never know, but one thing we know is that Right now and for the forseable future there is no harmless solution so we take what we have and get on with it because its not going happen in our lifetime.

liamygunner29

For me it's simple..Im Irish I therefore believe that my island of Ireland should be ruled by one Irish Government. Its basic sense.

However this is now impossible, weather he was right or wrong to sign up we will never know, but one thing we know is that Right now and for the forseable future there is no harmless solution so we take what we have and get on with it because its not going happen in our lifetime.

enniscorthy

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Simple question

Would you support or like to have a united Ireland ? ? ?

D.E.F.O.

enniscorthy

grenache wrote: »

Sean South is no different to the guys who blew up Omagh. Both were post 1921 IRA terrorists. Just because he was also from Limerick doesn't mean i'm going to break out in song for him. The police men he shot at that barracks had families too.

sean sabhat of garryowen what can i say F.A.B.

wes

As unlikely as it may be right now, yes I would most certainly support a United Ireland.

dvpower

Hagar wrote: »

The land isn't foreign the people living on it are.
That soil is Irish, those people are Scots. After 400 years they still have their Scots accent for heaven's sake. The Vikings came and settled, the Normans came and settled, when was the last time you heard a Viking or a Norman accent?

How can soil have a nationality?

Hagar

Think landing at JFK and being on US soil. Simple enough concept.

nayorleck114

It would never happen, we could not afford it. the north is maintained from London.

sneakerfreak

nayorleck114 wrote: »

It would never happen, we could not afford it. the north is maintained from London.

If they were forking out money for it they would have dumped it years ago,they main reason they like the place is as a training ground for their troops

brits first tour of duty is nearly always the 6 Counties.

dlofnep

grenache wrote: »

Whether the B Specials were ruthless or not, it was not the job of some daytrippers from Cork and Limerick to take the law into their own hands. Peaceful protesting has been much more successful in the North than bombs and bullets ever will be.

Peaceful protesting? Like Bloody Sunday? Yeah, that put 14 people in a coffin. Great success there. Daytrippers my arse, they were Irishmen, fighting the British establishment in Ireland.

grenache wrote: »

Oh they were of course both fighting for the same thing.

I'm glad you agree.

grenache wrote: »

Whether it was signed under duress or not is irrelevant, it was signed by Irishmen and thats the bottom line.

Of course it's relevant! If a person gives a false statement to the Gardaí under duress in a murder case for example - Is that statement credible also?

grenache wrote: »

I'm sure they were every bit as bad as they have been portrayed. But if what they were doing was illegal then what South and his companions did was also unlawful.

And? What Collins and his men did was also unlawful under British rule. What's your point? One never adheres to law when he or she is seeking independence. You're still failing to make a case for a difference between pre and post free state Republicanism.

grenache wrote: »

Apologies, my bad, it was of course the Dail and not the public who voted. I had forgotten that the voting was so close. I always had 2:1 in my mind for some reason!

You might want to get basic history right before you debate the topic. Just a suggestion.

KINGofHEARTS

Jakkass wrote: »

Both are death. One is certainly more heinous than the other, but both are unjustified.

As for foreign occupation, I think that is highly debatable now considering that after 400 years most of the people who arrived as rather settled in Northern Ireland and are about as 'foreign' as you or I.

Even if it was a foreign occupation, is that really justification for killing?

Omagh is unjustified IMO

But soldiers or crown forces ARE justified AND are legitimate targets

And how can u say they are the same thing, foreign armed men walking around a land they were planted in WITH GUNS ... is alot more of a legitimate target than a town full of innocent people

You really haven't a clue, go to the library and get a handful of history books, read them and then come back to us

blinding

Look at the mess the british made of Northern Ireland since partition.

There are walls deviding communities up there for goodness sake.

I may be wrong but if partition had not taken place in the way that it was surely there would not now be walls dividing communities.

The republic should have had a say on how things were run up there from the start.

It was the arrogance of successive British goverments against Irish people that stopped them implementing this sensible policy.

The Irish people and Irish goverments must have an imput and a united Ireland is a legitimate aspiration for any or all Irish people.

There is now no way that violence can be justified to achieve this aspiration.

I certainly hope it can be achieved as it is a legitimate aspiration of a large amount of Irish people.

ChocolateSauce

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Omagh is unjustified IMO

But soldiers or crown forces ARE justified AND are legitimate targets

And how can u say they are the same thing, foreign armed men walking around a land they were planted in WITH GUNS ... is alot more of a legitimate target than a town full of innocent people

You really haven't a clue, go to the library and get a handful of history books, read them and then come back to us

Wow, you're a terrorist. Or at least a terrorist supporter.

philologos

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Omagh is unjustified IMO

But soldiers or crown forces ARE justified AND are legitimate targets

And how can u say they are the same thing, foreign armed men walking around a land they were planted in WITH GUNS ... is alot more of a legitimate target than a town full of innocent people

You really haven't a clue, go to the library and get a handful of history books, read them and then come back to us

I haven't a clue about how terrorists justify themselves? Thank God for that, because I want to have nothing to do with it.

I think any violence, including British violence is wrong. I just don't agree with more IRA violence to make things worse. Things are getting a lot better now, let the people decide.

Diplomacy is the way forward, not barbarism.

Hagar

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Wow, you're a terrorist. Or at least a terrorist supporter.

Vive la Résistance.

dlofnep

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Wow, you're a terrorist. Or at least a terrorist supporter.

Shouldn't you be getting in contact with your local Garda station to inform them of this breaking news, that you have found a terrorist in the midst of the boards.ie users.

An Fear Aniar

So we're going to "liberate" a million British people from British rule? Great thinking there.

I'm still furious that the slaughter at Enniskillen was done by scumbags who had the cheek to call themselves Irish Republicans. Nár thaga bhúr lá go huain na críche.
.

Jim236

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

So we're going to "liberate" a million British people from British rule? Great thinking there.

What about the 800,000 Irish? I suppose for you the Irish nation stops at the border, and everyone North of it is a foreigner...

zuroph

It really doesnt matter a toss. people can feel Irish or british, it doesnt matter any more. Borders dont really exist, its all part of europe anyway. I dont want to be covering the tax bill for another few counties that i rarely visit.

so, no.

An Fear Aniar

Jim236 wrote: »

What about the 800,000 Irish? I suppose for you the Irish nation stops at the border, and everyone North of it is a foreigner...

I don't know, what about them? It is how it is. The GFA has helped, I guess. The only practical progress that can be made is to improve everyday life for everyone in the North.

.

aDeener

grenache wrote: »

Apologies, my bad, it was of course the Dail and not the public who voted. I had forgotten that the voting was so close. I always had 2:1 in my mind for some reason! I am still of the opinion though that the North was sacrificed for the greater good of the majority of Ireland. 26 is better than 0. However one can debate the coldness/callousness of this thinking.

whatever you do, do not go near this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055643674

They're ALL Irish! It's just that 55% (or so) don't want to be governed by (the popish)Dublin government, full stop.

They didn't particularly like being ruled By London (after 1971) either, but it was, for them, the lesser of two evils.

ejmaztec

aDeener wrote: »

whatever you do, do not go near this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055643674

He'd be partitioned for sure.:eek:

chopperbyrne

Anyone who has said that the majority of people in Ireland want a united Ireland is deluding themselves.

If it was put to a vote, there would a huge majority against unification. We cannot economically support six extra counties with almost two million extra citizens.

Sensible people also know that it would inevitably lead to more violence. Things are fine the way they are now. Northern Ireland could do with changing it's road signs to km though.

Kev_ps3

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Anyone who has said that the majority of people in Ireland want a united Ireland is deluding themselves.

If it was put to a vote, there would a huge majority against unification. We cannot economically support six extra counties with almost two million extra citizens.

Sensible people also know that it would inevitably lead to more violence. Things are fine the way they are now. Northern Ireland could do with changing it's road signs to km though.

Where is your evidence for that? Any poll ive seen, inc. this one shows that the majority of people want a united Ireland. Even the Brits would like a United Ireland:pac:

Dr Kamikazi

We're all in Europe now!
It already doesn't matter who once belonged to whom and we can forget centuries of war and bloodshed over what is now and will be in the future useless, meaningless squiggly lines on ancient, dusty maps.
Let go, you will be happier for it.
Just hope the Basques will get it into their thick skulls.

chopperbyrne

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Where is your evidence for that? Any poll ive seen, inc. this one shows that the majority of people want a united Ireland. Even the Brits would like a United Ireland:pac:

Before the last general election, all the polls pointed towards FF losing their position of power but that didn't happen.

People answer those polls idealistically. When it came down to it, the majority would vote against unification as it would effect them negatively.

Of course the British want rid of Northern Ireland. It's an economical black hole and an unwanted drain on their economy.

Kev_ps3

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Before the last general election, all the polls pointed towards FF losing their position of power but that didn't happen.

People answer those polls idealistically. When it came down to it, the majority would vote against unification as it would effect them negatively.

Of course the British want rid of Northern Ireland. It's an economical black hole and an unwanted drain on their economy.

Nonsence! You still havent answered my question..

chopperbyrne

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Nonsence! You still havent answered my question..

I have. I told you that meaningless polls are just that, meaningless.

Kev_ps3

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I have. I told you that meaningless polls are just that, meaningless.

Well they mean more then some guys opinion on a message board.

chopperbyrne

No they don't, at all.

Anonymous polls are just as meaningless as anonymous message board posts.

philologos

Jim236 wrote: »

What about the 800,000 Irish? I suppose for you the Irish nation stops at the border, and everyone North of it is a foreigner...

What is so horrific about the living conditions there for Irish republicans? Just curious?

Jakkass

Jakkass wrote: »

What is so horrific about the living conditions there for Irish republicans? Just curious?

The neighbours!

DoireNod

Jakkass wrote: »

What is so horrific about the living conditions there for Irish republicans? Just curious?

The living conditions of Irish republicans in the North currently has little to do with the desire for Irish independence. I don't understand why you feel the need to raise the issue.

The desire for Irish independence is a desire which stems back 100s of years and for Irish republicans in the North, it's all the more pertinent because they were effectively abandoned and forced to live in a gerrymandered state - something which has only recently started to change. Sure, things might not be as bad as they once were for republicans and nationalists, but it doesn't render the principle of freedom obsolete.

zuroph

they wouldnt be any "freer" under irish gov rule. They'd be down money, and paying more taxes. a hundreds of years old desire is rubbish. let it go, and move on, then no1 else gets hurt.

organised religion and nationalism, two of the most horrible inventions ever. Ireland is a hole, run by corrupt or plain inept idiots. The great Irish independence experiment is almost at an end, less than 100 years after it began. The germans are going to have to bail us out, and I cant wait, it'll be nice to have some professionals running the place instead of these idiots.

Sure! All the free state did was "CTRL -H" the law books, replacing "crown" with "state" and paint the postboxes green. Apart from giving the catholic church a leading role in government little else is different from the previous establishment.

philologos

DoireNod wrote: »

The living conditions of Irish republicans in the North currently has little to do with the desire for Irish independence. I don't understand why you feel the need to raise the issue.

Of course it's relevant. Jim236 asks about the 800,000 Irish, and I say what about them?

They live in a society that now is pretty much in adherence with human rights laws.

I don't think the desire of independence is meaningful when one lives in a country which respects civil liberties.

I mean the democratic will of the majority there is to remain with Britain, I feel that is to be respected until a point in time where that changes. Until then I don't feel it is that bad a situation for the 800,000 Jim236 refers to.

DoireNod

zuroph wrote: »

they wouldnt be any "freer" under irish gov rule. They'd be down money, and paying more taxes. a hundreds of years old desire is rubbish...

How do you know? Truth is, you don't until it actually happens. The same can be said of the 'independence' gained in 1921. Your opinion that 'a hundreds of years old desire is rubbish', is just that. An opinion.

...organised religion and nationalism, two of the most horrible inventions ever. Ireland is a hole, run by corrupt or plain inept idiots. The great Irish independence experiment is almost at an end, less than 100 years after it began...

I agree with you on the man-made concepts of religion and nationhood - they haven't been the most helpful of inventions. However, some aren't 'nationalist' in the sense that they are patriots. You don't have to be a nationalist or a patriot to want a republic or freedom. Some people genuinely feel that when something is right, it is worth pursuing, hence the desire for freedom. It's the principle of the matter and believe it or not, some people feel that freedom supersedes all-else.

Kev_ps3

zuroph wrote: »

they wouldnt be any "freer" under irish gov rule. They'd be down money, and paying more taxes. a hundreds of years old desire is rubbish. let it go, and move on, then no1 else gets hurt.

organised religion and nationalism, two of the most horrible inventions ever. Ireland is a hole, run by corrupt or plain inept idiots. The great Irish independence experiment is almost at an end, less than 100 years after it began. The germans are going to have to bail us out, and I cant wait, it'll be nice to have some professionals running the place instead of these idiots.

I agree we are run by idiots but calling our independence an 'experiment' is a huge insult to us Irish. People like you should be deported, then maby you'll change your tune.

zuroph

DoireNod wrote: »

How do you know? Truth is, you don't until it actually happens. The same can be said of the 'independence' gained in 1921. Your opinion that 'a hundreds of years old desire is rubbish', is just that. An opinion.

I agree with you on the man-made concepts of religion and nationhood - they haven't been the most helpful of inventions. However, some aren't 'nationalist' in the sense that they are patriots. You don't have to be a nationalist or a patriot to want a republic or freedom. Some people genuinely feel that when something is right, it is worth pursuing, hence the desire for freedom. It's the principle of the matter and believe it or not, some people feel that freedom supersedes all-else.

define "free" for me. They would be no less ruled if the IRish Gov took over.

we know for a fact they'd be paying more taxes if they became part of Irish Republic, by comparing the two tax systems.

What would a swap to Irish rule achieve. A few parades, some flag waving, then loads more fighting, arguing, a huge strain on the Irish public via taxes, more rebellion and murders. just so some people can pay their tax money to FF instead of Labour. Northern Ireland are doing fine by themselves, leave them be.

zuroph

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I agree we are run by idiots but calling our independence an 'experiment' is a huge insult to us Irish. People like you should be deported, then maby you'll change your tune.

where you deporting me to?

DoireNod

Jakkass wrote: »

They live in a society that now is pretty much in adherence with human rights laws.

I don't think the desire of independence is meaningful when one lives in a country which respects civil liberties.

Fair enough. I accepted your point that things aren't as bad as it once was, but my point was that the Irish republic was founded on the principles of independence from British rule, not due to 'horrific' living conditions. In fact, the 1916 Rising was the biggest rebellion in Ireland since the 1798 rebellion. For 118 years, British rule had almost become normalised in Ireland. Now, Irish people in the North have been living under British rule in the state of 'Northern Ireland' for 88 years, most of which saw them subjected to physical, mental and social brutality. You really think that the principle of Irish independence should be dropped because the living conditions aren't that bad anymore?

I mean the democratic will of the majority there is to remain with Britain, I feel that is to be respected until a point in time where that changes. Until then I don't feel it is that bad a situation for the 800,000 Jim236 refers to.

It's really only the will of the majority because of the nature of how the state was created - it would have been a different story had the whole of Ulster been incorporated into that state. The independence of Ireland should be a decision made by the people of the whole island and not by a gerrymandered 'state'.

pablomakaveli

The arguments i always see from pro-unification people are always the same. "Because the Brits are occupying our country", "The six counties are a part of ireland", "Because they fought for a 32-county ireland in the War of Independence" etc. and if anyone disagrees with them they're a "West Brit".

Most of these people seem to think that if we got a united ireland it would make everything better and we'd all live happily ever after. But thats just fantasy.

The world does'nt work like that and it never will. There are too many problems that would be created by it. Also people seem to forget or choose to ignore the large amount of Unionists up North. They won't up an leave or just one day throw up their hands and say "Aw lets all just become irish and accept a united ireland".

When it comes to politics, nationalism, reliogion or just people in general etc nothing is ever that simple. Pro-unity people seem to ignore this and refuse to accept it.

zuroph

how is it foolish? we havent been independent 100 years and already the country is on the verge of going broke, with a bulging social welfare bill, and no sign of a fresh source of income. taking in 6 counties now would be the nail in the coffin for Ireland. Saying our independence is an experiment isnt insulting to us, as, at the moment, it looks like we're gonna be completely run by europe within a few years. The Irish Government has failed at managing our finances, and the republic will be nothing more than a part of something much bigger.

I cant wait.

DoireNod

zuroph wrote: »

define "free" for me. They would be no less ruled if the IRish Gov took over.

Freedom is hard to define, of course, but in this case you knew I was talking about freedom from British rule, which would effectively be liberation from having to do what they say... The basic human desire to not be subject to another. I do understand your point though that no one is truly 'free' living under a government.

we know for a fact they'd be paying more taxes if they became part of Irish Republic, by comparing the two tax systems.

Ok, but you really don't know until it happens. Until then, it's nothing more than speculation.

What would a swap to Irish rule achieve. A few parades, some flag waving, then loads more fighting, arguing, a huge strain on the Irish public via taxes, more rebellion and murders. just so some people can pay their tax money to FF instead of Labour. Northern Ireland are doing fine by themselves, leave them be.

It would probably have the same result as what happened in the early 20th century, only this time true independence would have been achieved for the island of Ireland.

Also, I don't know what you mean by saying 'Northern Ireland are doing fine by themselves'. It's such a sweeping statement. How is Northern Ireland 'doing fine'?

philologos

DoireNod wrote: »

You really think that the principle of Irish independence should be dropped because the living conditions aren't that bad anymore?

I think the people of Northern Ireland should decide for themselves. I have no problem whatsoever with Northern Ireland remaining a part of the United Kingdom.

DoireNod wrote: »

It's really only the will of the majority because of the nature of how the state was created - it would have been a different story had the whole of Ulster been incorporated into that state. The independence of Ireland should be a decision made by the people of the whole island and not by a gerrymandered 'state'.

We have to deal with the legacy of the past in respect to democracy. Facts are Northern Ireland is a province of the UK with it's own parliament in Stormont. Diplomacy works by political rules. As do referendums and electoral systems. That's reality.

The terms of the GFA still stand also. It's not like we can undo these things. The past affects the future.

zuroph

DoireNod wrote: »

Freedom is hard to define, of course, but in this case you knew I was talking about freedom from British rule, which would effectively be liberation from having to do what they say... The basic human desire to not be subject to another. I do understand your point though that no one is truly 'free' living under a government.

but they'll just be told what to do by the Irish Gov. All desires for freedom aside, thats a pretty ****ty deal.

Ok, but you really don't know until it happens. Until then, it's nothing more than speculation.

you think the Irish gov will drop taxes if they took in Northern Ireland, consider the extra cost that would entail? Its a certainty they would be paying our vat rates, and in all probability , the Irish Gov would have to raise taxes further.

It would probably have the same result as what happened in the early 20th century, only this time true independence would have been achieved for the island of Ireland.

and two weeks later, when the country goes bust, at least we'll all have our little tricolours to cheer us up, While the Germans fix the mess we've made.

Also, I don't know what you mean by saying 'Northern Ireland are doing fine by themselves'. It's such a sweeping statement. How is Northern Ireland 'doing fine'?

Northern Ireland is becoming a nice place to travel to, with nice people, who dont worry whether your parents waved a tricolour or a union jack, they just want to go to work, get their money, and have a roof over their heads. Sure theres still some people holding onto the resentment, but, day by day, more people are realising its pointless and moving on, and becoming proud of NI as its own place.

Kev_ps3

zuroph wrote: »

where you deporting me to?

whereever you like;)

DoireNod

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the people of Northern Ireland should decide for themselves. I have no problem whatsoever with Northern Ireland remaining a part of the United Kingdom.

Of course you don't, since, I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you have grown up in the Republic and as such, would have no real conception of being 'under foreign rule'.

We have to deal with the legacy of the past in respect to democracy. Facts are Northern Ireland is a province of the UK with it's own parliament in Stormont. Diplomacy works by political rules. As do referendums and electoral systems. That's reality.

The terms of the GFA still stand also. It's not like we can undo these things. The past affects the future.

Ok. For years, democracy was not practised in Northern Ireland. That's its legacy there.

Of course the past affects the future. That's why people still want to see Irish independence, since it wasn't achieved in the past.