The Irish Firearm Custody Order of August 1972

david5624

I am looking for an update on developments to the The Irish Firearm Custody Order of August 1972. I believe it was successfully challenged in 2004, insofar as the original order was limited to a month not 32 years+.

My Grandfather had 3 guns confiscated at the time and two others not subject to the order were bequeathed to my father and subsequently by him to me. I had been previously told that they were sitting in a barrel of oil in the Phoenix Park.

Before I ring Garda HQ in the Phoenix Park, I wonder had any one information on this subject. I would be interested in them as antiques/collectibles at this stage.

TIA

David

Sparks

You might be a wee bit behind the times there David

Fast summary:
The 1972 order ended in 1972.
The policy to not reissue licences for rifles over .22 and pistols was relaxed a bit in the mid-90s to allow rifles up to .270 winchester; then overturned in 2004 following a high court case. As promised in 1972 by the DoJ, following the overturning, the law was rewritten in the Criminal Justice Act of 2006 (which started life in 2004) and that act completely rewrote the bulk of the firearms acts; then the most recent change, the Criminal Justice (Misc.Provisions) Act 2009 banned handguns over .22 calibre that weren't already licenced.

Read the "Target Pistols Return to Ireland", "Criminal Justice Bill 2004", "Criminal Justice Act 2006", "Criminal Justice Bill 2009" and "Firearms Acts" threads for more details.

BornToKill

david5624 wrote: »

My Grandfather had 3 guns confiscated at the time ... I would be interested in them as antiques/collectibles at this stage.

TIA

David

What type of guns? If you can license them you can get them back. You'll need to contact the Guards and you may need to establish that they belonged to your grandfather and you have claim to their ownership.

Thoie

I still have the receipts for my grandfather's guns. I have no interest in getting a license, but would like to get the guns back in some way they could never be shot again. How likely is this to happen? Would I have to apply for a license (unlikely to get one as I don't really have room for a gun safe, and no interest in spending money on one).

david5624

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

BornToKill

Thoie wrote: »

I have no interest in getting a license, but would like to get the guns back in some way they could never be shot again.

david5624 wrote: »

I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance.

Sounds like both of you are talking about having them deactivated. You could do that and then hold the deactivated guns on the basis of an authorisation from your Superintendent (which would be free). I think the army is storing the balance of the 1972 guns for the guards but it'd be the guards you approach with an enquiry.

rrpc

david5624 wrote: »

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

You could get a licence for the .303 provided you were either a member of a target shooting club where you could use it or you were a deer hunter.

Grizzly 45

Maybe even the Thompson,if it is permantly reworked to semi auto only by a professional gunsmith,or company that does these convesions.It would be a restricted firearm as well,but what a nice piece.
Hope they wernt stored as you describe...It would have played havoc with the woodwork.:eek:

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

You could get a licence for the .303 provided you were either a member of a target shooting club where you could use it or you were a deer hunter.

And to be honest, there's more learnt from using the .303 to figure out what it was like for great-granddad or whomever, than there'd be from hanging it on the wall...

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

And to be honest, there's more learnt from using the .303 to figure out what it was like for great-granddad or whomever, than there'd be from hanging it on the wall...

A sentimental attachment there Sparks.

fat-tony

david5624 wrote: »

I doubt I would get a license for the Luger Pistol or the Thompson machine gun. However they both had an interesting history and I would be willing to have them "fixed" so that they could not be used again but more of a collectible item or nostalgic re inheritance. I suppose the .303 rifle would be a problem still, so perhaps no value as such. It sounds from the replies I should give HQ a ring and take it from there.

David

David, It's certainly worth it to drop a line to the firearms section in the Park, giving details of your grandfather's address at the time when they were taken into "temporary" custody, plus receipt details etc. You can ask to call to the offices in the Park to inspect the condition of the firearms. I did this before applying for certs for my father's pistols. The .303 rifle should not be that much of a problem if you wanted to actually use it as a target rifle. There are a number of people shooting "vintage" and collector's firearms in Midlands.

david5624

Appreciate the feedback. I spoke with Garda HQ and they advised I write to the local Garda station where the firearms were taken into custody first with the details who will in turn forward their records to HQ who can attempt to locate the items in question. David

Thoie

david5624 wrote: »

Appreciate the feedback. I spoke with Garda HQ and they advised I write to the local Garda station where the firearms were taken into custody first with the details who will in turn forward their records to HQ who can attempt to locate the items in question. David

Did they make any comment at all as to whether they still have some guns (I know they wouldn't know about yours specifically without details)?

rrpc

Thoie wrote: »

Did they make any comment at all as to whether they still have some guns (I know they wouldn't know about yours specifically without details)?

I believe there may be as many as three thousand still in custody.

david5624

They said that they were most likely in storage in Athlone. (Army I suppose as mentioned by Born to kill earlier) I can advise how I get on if there is any interest. David

Grizzly 45

Please do...I,for one would be well intrested.

Rovi

For your education and entertainment, here's the original Statutory Instrument:
S.I. No. 187/1972 — Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order, 1972.

Dessie O'Mally wrote:

S.I. No. 187/1972:

FIREARMS (TEMPORARY CUSTODY) ORDER, 1972.

FIREARMS (TEMPORARY CUSTODY) ORDER, 1972.

I, DESMOND O'MALLEY, Minister for Justice, being satisfied that it is necessary to do so in the interests of the public safety, hereby, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 4 (1) of the Firearms Act, 1964 (No. 1 of 1964), order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order, 1972.

2. This Order shall remain in force for a period of one month.

3. Every person residing in the State and having possession of a firearm or ammunition of any of the classes specified in the Schedule to this Order shall surrender it to the Garda Síochána on or before the 5th day of August, 1972.

Schedule.

1. Pistols and revolvers and ammunition therefor.

2. Rifled firearms of a calibre exceeding .22 inches and ammunition therefor.


GIVEN under my Official Seal this 2nd day of August, 1972.

DESMOND O'MALLEY,

Minister for Justice.

EXPLANATORY NOTE.

This Order requires every person residing in the State to surrender to the Garda Síochána on or before 5th August, 1972, any revolver or pistol or any rifled firearm of a calibre in excess of .22 inches in his possession, together with any ammunition therefor. The Order will remain in force for one month.

Keep a close eye out in case the current Minister gets any bright ideas.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

For your education and entertainment, here's the original Statutory Instrument:

Keep a close eye out in case the current Minister gets any bright ideas.

Well don't be giving him any then please :eek:

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

Well don't be giving him any then please :eek:

Ah, it'll be okay, I doubt they let him near the Tipp-Ex in the Department anyway.

pajero2005

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

rrpc

pajero2005 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

I'll give you a hint. What was happening politically around that time?

Rovi

pajero2005 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance here, but what was the reason for the Firearm Custody Order 1972?

There's an academic career for an historian to go into this in detail, but in a nutshell (and VERY roughly, I am NOT an historian!):
The Troubles had really kicked-off in Northern Ireland, with Bloody Sunday earlier that year, and internment introduced the year previous.
Anti-British sentiment was running very high, with the British Embassy being burned down on the day of the Bloody Sunday victims' funerals.
Garda Richard Fallon had been murdered by members of Saor Éire during the course of a bank robbery in 1970, and the Arms Crisis had shaken the Jack Lynch Fianna Fail government, leading many people to fear that The Troubles were about to spill over the border into the Republic.
There was wild talk at the time about a 'citizen army', armed with civilian firearms, heading North to defend Catholic enclaves, and there were stories of a huge surge in ammunition sales.

The 'Temporary Custody Order' was proposed (and accepted by most people) as a measure to help prevent what appeared at the time to be an inexorable slide towards bloodshed on the streets and possibly even a civil war.

pajero2005

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

Rovi

pajero2005 wrote: »

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

I suspect that in many cases, the original owners of the firearms are deceased, and their descendants/heirs simply don't know the firearms exist.

rrpc

pajero2005 wrote: »

Thanks to rrpc and Rovi. I figured it was a decision based on the political standings of the time, but wondered why so many guns were still in the custody of The Gardai. Is this down to people not reclaiming them? Seems a little odd.

Many people who's firearms were surrendered have since passed away. It then requires that their descendants (a) are aware of the situation and (b) are interested enough to follow it up.

In the case of (a), being aware means firstly being aware that there were firearms handed up and secondly that there's the possibility of licensing them again. Neither of those can be taken for granted. Someone who was 5 years old in 1972, is in their 40's now and might never have known that their parent had a firearm or that it was surrendered.

Of course there might not even be descendants, or they may no longer live in this country.

Edit: Just to add that two members of our club are people who had firearms surrendered in 1972. In one case the 7.62 target rifle has now been released and sold on to another guy and in the other case, the .22 pistol has been relicensed and is back being used by its original owner. In a third case, the owner's son is a member of the club and his father's old air pistol is now on the club authorisation: fat-tony has already posted on this thread.

Snap with Rovi again

fat-tony

The "Temporary" Custody Order effectively lasted 32 years to 2004 after a series of court cases which started the return of pistols. In my particular situation my father had died in the interim and except for the fact that I recalled the Gardai visiting the house back in 1972 to seize the pistols, they would still be lying in the firearms stores. That said, my father's pistols were well looked after, with the metal parts coated in grease.

Rovi

I'm pretty sure I talked about this on here before, but surely the Gardai (or DoJ, or whoever) has records for the firearms still in their custody?
All these firearms are still the personal property of named individuals, so they can't be destroyed; perhaps in due course they may make an effort to contact the owners or their descendants to sort out what to do with them.

rrpc

Rovi wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I talked about this on here before, but surely the Gardai (or DoJ, or whoever) has records for the firearms still in their custody?
All these firearms are still the personal property of named individuals, so they can't be destroyed; perhaps in due course they may make an effort to contact the owners or their descendants to sort out what to do with them.

I would say that it's as difficult for them as it is for the owners or descendants.

Imagine the difficulty of tracking down, effectively the next generation of people who surrendered their firearms?

Then there's the whole other issue of telling people they can reclaim their property and at the same time saying that they have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to do that.

Apart from the philosophical question of whether the Gardai want them to be relicensed again. :rolleyes:

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

I would say that it's as difficult for them as it is for the owners or descendants.

Imagine the difficulty of tracking down, effectively the next generation of people who surrendered their firearms?

Then there's the whole other issue of telling people they can reclaim their property and at the same time saying that they have to jump through a whole bunch of hoops in order to do that.

It won't happen under the current financial constraints, but a letter to the listed owner of each firearm would find either the owner or their heirs in the majority of cases, I'd expect.

rrpc wrote: »

Apart from the philosophical question of whether the Gardai want them to be relicensed again. :rolleyes:

Certainly, I doubt such a thing would happen under the current Minister, but you never know how things might pan out in the future.

david5624

I was fortunate in 1972 to see the firearms before they were taken into custody. My grandfather kept them in as new condition. Since posting the original message, I am now looking forward to potentially seeing them again. If they could tell stories, I think the three went something like this from recollection....

The Thompson submachine gun...

Extract from this article....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

"Thompson shipped some of the first batches to Ireland. These were acquired by the Irish Republican Army and were used in the stages of the Irish War of Independence and Civil War."

On the Luger think U boats off the west coast during WWII

and on the .303 think sharks off the west coast.

Ah the nostalgia of it all.

More anon,,

Sparks

fat-tony wrote: »

The "Temporary" Custody Order effectively lasted 32 years

Gosh, how I hate it when people say that.
The TCO lasted as long as it was allowed to last (ie. One month). It ran out on September 5, 1972.
What kept the pistols away from their owners was not the TCO, it was the DoJ/Gardai policy of not issueing licences.
If they'd tried to use the TCO the way people talk about it, it wouldn't have made it out of the worst District Court going, let alone the High Court.
I know it seems like a small point, but how many times did people listen to the tall tales of the TCO and then go demand an answer from the Minister as to why it hadn't been rescinded, thus giving him an easy out on the question, making the TD that asked it look foolish, and burning yet another bridge for anyone trying to talk to the PTB?
Gah...