The Irish Firearm Custody Order of August 1972

Thoie

The reason I know about it (I wasn't born in 72) was that I came across the "butt"s (? - the wooden bit where you hold it) of various guns in the attic at some stage when my granny was moving. Some of the wooden bits have metal plaques engraved with various bits of family history "Awarded to so-n-so for such-n-such, dated..."

When I asked where the rest of the bits were, I then learned about the 1972 thing. Further clearance of the house found the original receipts (which are probably historical documents in their own right - I should really scan them in somewhere). The receipts are filed away safely, and the bits are in the attic at home (much to the consternation of a plumber who went up to do something with the tank in the attic ).

I have no interest in the guns as firearms (I can barely manage a wiimote, and shotguns just leave me with giant bruises), but think the family history is worth keeping.

Rovi

Thoie wrote: »

The reason I know about it (I wasn't born in 72) was that I came across the "butt"s (? - the wooden bit where you hold it) of various guns in the attic at some stage when my granny was moving. Some of the wooden bits have metal plaques engraved with various bits of family history "Awarded to so-n-so for such-n-such, dated..."

When I asked where the rest of the bits were, I then learned about the 1972 thing. Further clearance of the house found the original receipts (which are probably historical documents in their own right - I should really scan them in somewhere). The receipts are filed away safely, and the bits are in the attic at home (much to the consternation of a plumber who went up to do something with the tank in the attic ).

I have no interest in the guns as firearms (I can barely manage a wiimote, and shotguns just leave me with giant bruises), but think the family history is worth keeping.

I'd love to see photos/scans of the parts and receipts (with personal data obscured, of course), if you could see your way to doing that sometime.

We could see if we can identify the firearms from the pieces of 'furniture'.

pajero2005

+1 with Rovi. Would love to see a few pictures, if you could?

Thoie

Rovi wrote: »

I'd love to see photos/scans of the parts and receipts (with personal data obscured, of course), if you could see your way to doing that sometime.

We could see if we can identify the firearms from the pieces of 'furniture'.

I can probably get my mother to scan in the receipts and then I can edit them and post up here. The parts will have to wait some time until

a) I'm home
b) My father allows me to go into the attic - he's convinced anyone except him who goes into the attic will immediately come crashing through the ceiling :rolleyes: I've tried explaining that as a real honest grown up with my own home that I'm capable of figuring out the difference between plasterboard and joists, but he doesn't believe me.

fat-tony

Sparks wrote: »

Gosh, how I hate it when people say that.
The TCO lasted as long as it was allowed to last (ie. One month). It ran out on September 5, 1972.
What kept the pistols away from their owners was not the TCO, it was the DoJ/Gardai policy of not issueing licences.
If they'd tried to use the TCO the way people talk about it, it wouldn't have made it out of the worst District Court going, let alone the High Court.
I know it seems like a small point, but how many times did people listen to the tall tales of the TCO and then go demand an answer from the Minister as to why it hadn't been rescinded, thus giving him an easy out on the question, making the TD that asked it look foolish, and burning yet another bridge for anyone trying to talk to the PTB?
Gah...

Ah Sparks - FFS - you know that I know the TCO was not the reason why people didn't get their pistols back. I used the phrase "effectively" to indicate to the poster how long the pistol lockup was in force. I've always put quotes around the "Temporary" part of the order as I well know that it was for one month only!
We are going OTT with this pedantry:D

Grizzly 45

One thing that has always puzzled me about this whole TCO....

Eventually,somone must have realised that the political situation in NI/ROI was going to change for either the better or worse.
For the worse,well it would be understandable that stuff would be never seen again,or there would be stacks of it about after civil war mk2.
So then it would be irrevelant the outcome of the TCO.

Or that some sort of peaceful settlement would be found,[which fortunatly did happen].
But somwhere,somtime, somone in power must have been ,or asked or given with the undertaking of deciding when to hand back all these firearms in storage?? It is sitting in Army barracks and using Govt resources to gaurd.This must be costing money as well,and is a security risk too.So I am amazed some bean counter didnt mention this Govt wastage too in latter years?
If there was such,I would love to know under what conditions, or when would an Irish Govt think it was suitable to re entrust their citzinery with their property?
After all,we only started looking for these types of guns back,when the Ceasefire had been in place for about 10 years,and PIRA,had already made some serious decomissioning efforts..
This is why I think there was such court challanges and the current situation we find ourselves in.Maybe the Govt,did have a timeplan to return these guns,and this upset their plans???
Or[more likely] was it just somthing that was never considerd or going to happen,and just forgotton about thru sucessive govts,and they were then caught on the hop with the 1st court cases?

rrpc

I imagine the cost is negligible, seeing as you're paying the army anyway
The surrendered stuff would probably only take up parts of armouries around the country.

Thoie

Completely irrelevant as I don't want to go shooting, but just reading the TCO again, I wonder what they'd say if you said you wanted the ammo back as well?

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

Rovi

Thoie wrote: »

Completely irrelevant as I don't want to go shooting, but just reading the TCO again, I wonder what they'd say if you said you wanted the ammo back as well?

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

Well, I'd hope and expect that each individual's personal property (both the firearm and any ammunition) would be identifiable, so it mightn't be that unreasonable a request.

Of course, you'd need to have a licence for the firearm in question (or another in the same calibre) to take possession of the ammunition.

Sparks

Thoie wrote: »

"Yes, I want the exact 5 bullets belonging to grandad, go fetch"

They had them up until recently at least - there were concerns over stability of the old primers from what I remember, but the firearms and ammunition were still the property of the original owners so they couldn't just dump them.

fat-tony wrote: »

We are going OTT with this pedantry:D

It's not pedantry when lack of attention to detail does damage...

Rovi

david5624 wrote: »

I was fortunate in 1972 to see the firearms before they were taken into custody. My grandfather kept them in as new condition. Since posting the original message, I am now looking forward to potentially seeing them again. If they could tell stories, I think the three went something like this from recollection....

The Thompson submachine gun...

On the subject of your Grandfather's Thompson, don't make any rushed decisions on its future until you've researched all the options.
There's considerable interest in these guns, with a big community of enthusiasts and collectors; have a look here:
Thompson SMG Message Board

Unless the gun has some sentimental value or is tied to interesting family history in which case certainly look into having it deactivated, it might very well be worth your while investigating selling it to a collector somewhere where people can legally possess such things.
Whatever you do, I beg you to please not tell the Gardai to 'do away with it' for you; it'll only end up being smelted or in some super sekret store room to which only the privileged or well connected have access.

Speaking of which...



..., on the above forum, I found THIS THREAD, which contains some very interesting photographs.

G17

Rovi wrote: »

which contains some very interesting photographs.

Bookmarked under porn.

Great find.

Grizzly 45

Plus 1 on that post Rovi.
Well intresting,wonder can any of us natives visit there.
Be abit difficult to sell this as well
The USA is out now since 1986.No more Full auto stuff can be imported.
Looked into getting this converted to semi
in Germany.Thats out as well..The BKA clamped down on any full auto guns that have been converted to semi,even with totally re manufactured parts and recivers.:( Especially Thompsons,they were becoming a great seller last year.They were made up out of demilled GI Thompsons coming out of lend lease in Russia.:eek:
Deact sounds like the only route to go.Damn shame though,If there is some way of getting it kept in semi you would have a fine and valuable rifle,with a story and possiblity of a sale.Rather than a high tech club with a histoy.:(

Bananaman

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

Funny, I was also intrigued by that one

It looks like quite an old big game rifle. The action is pretty huge, so you'd be talking about something the size of a 600 nitro express, but older obviously.

You'd want to be in the whole of your health to fire it

Rovi

Bananaman wrote: »

What the flock is that

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3767.jpg

B'Man

rrpc wrote: »

Funny, I was also intrigued by that one

It looks like quite an old big game rifle. The action is pretty huge, so you'd be talking about something the size of a 600 nitro express, but older obviously.

You'd want to be in the whole of your health to fire it

I'm pretty sure it's a punt gun.

If you look at the same gun in another photo:
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj264/jdice379/Ireland%20Tommy%20Gun/IMG_3766.jpg
...you can see a step in the stock which I suspect fits into a socket in the punt.

Traumadoc

Its an anti-tank Mauser

Good luck getting ammo though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13.2_mm_Rifle_Anti-Tank_(Mauser)

Grizzly 45

Nope! It's a Panzer buchse or tank rifle.
Developed by the Germans in WW1 to counter the 1st Gen British tanks in the trenches.Idea being the thicker the plate,the stronger the power behind the bullet to punch thru.Forget about the OUCH factor to the poor sod who has to pull the trigger on it.:eek:It's calibre is somthing up in the old Boyes anti tank rifle ,or the Swedish Lathi.Think they are above 50 cal anyway.
Needless to say it wasnt very effective.So it became a long range sniper rifle,the great granddad of our modern 50 cals.
Now how this ended up in Ireland in the Garda HQ,is anyones guess.
But it must be a story worth hearing.:cool:
SNAP..Trauma doc.Was getting the pics for the post.

Bananaman

rrpc

13.2mm, thought it would be bigger somehow. That's a bit over half an inch, so your 50 cal guess was prretty close Grizzly.

I really would love to know the story behind some of those guns, and especially that one.

Funny enough, I recognised one of the Gardai in the photos. I think I have his phone number.... :eek:

Rovi

Sweet stuff, thanks for the correction lads.

Here she is:


Looks like the one in the Garda store has lost its bipod, pistol grip, and trigger guard, and someone has taken a saw to the stock.

Some linkys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13.2_mm_Rifle_Anti-Tank_%28Mauser%29
http://www.antitank.co.uk/ww1_anti-tank_rifles1.htm
http://www.rockislandauction.com/view_item.aspx?aid=46&iid=233646

Grizzly 45

Great thing about this board.Within an hour of somone asking "whats this"we can ID just about any firearm and it's history .:)

Hmm,theres an idea for a afternoon.How abouts a Boards tour of the Garda firearms museum?If it could be arranged,that would be intresting.

bigred

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmm,theres an idea for a afternoon.How abouts a Boards tour of the Garda firearms museum?If it could be arranged,that would be intresting.

Bags first spot!

G17

bigred wrote: »

Bags first spot!

Me me!!

However, I'll have to have my arms Sellotaped to my body to stop me picking stuff up for a sight picture/rub/rack/sniff.

Volunteers to scratch my nose if needed (fingers crossed no other parts get itchy, at least I'll know who my friends are!)? :D:D:D:D

bigred

G17 wrote: »

Volunteers to scratch my nose if needed (fingers crossed no other parts get itchy, at least I'll know who my friends are!)? :D:D:D:D

You can scratch your nose on the foresight of a Tommy Gun!

civdef

I got a tour of that place a few years ago, very interesting allright.
Some of the stuff in it definitely should be in the National Museum.

ayapatrick

civdef wrote: »

I got a tour of that place a few years ago, very interesting allright.
Some of the stuff in it definitely should be in the National Museum.

is it a case of walk in of the street and announce yourself. or would you have to be invited?

civdef

The latter, as I understand it.

david5624

Rovi wrote: »

On the subject of your Grandfather's Thompson, don't make any rushed decisions on its future until you've researched all the options.

Unless the gun has some sentimental value or is tied to interesting family history in which case certainly look into having it deactivated, it might very well be worth your while investigating selling it to a collector somewhere where people can legally possess such things.

Well US$ might take the sting out of sentimental side. :-) I had noticed the interest in originals as opposed to copies.

Letter has gone to original Garda station where they were handed in.

More anon.

David

rowa

some of those pistols are worth a few bob , especially the early webleys , i hope if this place does close that they are exported to a free country and not crushed or smelted .
some souless pen-pusher will ensure that they will be no doubt .