How i'm dealing with 3.2

][cEMAN**

I can't die!



Much luv karl, roll a pally!

How're you guys finding it?

Berns

Rogues still die too easily Want a axe though to try em :P

Anti

The holy priest nerf is a bit of a joke, still absolutley obliterating healing meters all over the place. although its nice to see paladins catching up now they got a little boost. I still cant work out how to play shadow in pvp properly, but thats nothign serious as i only pvp when bored. Cant say ive noticed much of a difference with my hunter or warrior though, but then again i dont really play the warrior much anymore.

Wreck

I've only played for a couple of hours as I have exams coming up, but I'm trying an unholy pvp spec and frost tanking spec on my DK atm. I've only ever been frost before, and I actually can't believe just how easy it is to play as Unholy, even with the nerfs. Did some world PvP while questing and some BGs (not the new one yet) and it's just lol.

Frost tanking has definetly suffered as a result of this patch, won't really be able to judge by how much until I raid again but it looks bad tbh.

Haven't played any of my other characters so can't judge, and haven't done any of the new content yet either, but looking forward to trying out the new instances in a couple of weeks.

BadCharlie

Came up against a priest in pvp BG's the other night he was wicked. Wooped me each time. I put this down to him prob having all the pvp gear and 26k health. Normally I don't have problems killing them but can take some time.

Also all I got to say is now mages are a balls to kill. I cheap shot them and they blink as if they did not get a stun. Anyways they are so so hard to kill them with the blink, ice block, make copy of them self's by 4 + im sure one of them did a copy of them self then also used a ice elemental on me + ice blocked him self. Then out of ice block to blink away ffs...... if only I can get my hands on them. Have to use all CD's on them + reuse CD's to try and kill a good mage.

Karl Hungus

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;61532334']Much luv karl, roll a pally!

Karl is very happy as his hairy Tauren warrior self.

Honestly, this is the happiest I've been as a tank for some time. 3.1 had me kinda depressed with the state of protection warriors, Heroics were a freakin' chore because I didn't have the rage, and while my guild is off doing had modes, I'm left out. Overall, the tail end of 3.1 had me feeling like I wanted to quit.

The buff to Devastate and rage on avoidance (even though I've still only got 2/5 SS, it's enough to make a very noticeable difference) has made such a difference. Haven't really been raiding much since the patch, but in the raids I have done with Iceman over the last couple of days, 2 things really made themselves evident to me. First was in VoA when I was offtanking the big loot pinata, having little rage all I could do was spam devastate. When Iceman there got grabbed, Archevon went straight to me. I was maintaining threat over the DPS with devastate alone! The second thing was, in a ****ty Naxx 10 pug, something very strange was happening, I had enough rage to spam cleave constantly. I was actually holding aggro on 3 mobs against undying Iceman there, where before I'd be lucky to hold aggro on 1 and then run out or rage when it was dead.

Who'd have ever thought it possible, a Warrior holding AOE aggro against a Paladin? I've used the glyph of cleaving before, but half the time didn't have the rage to keep cleave up in a rotation. It makes a huge difference now. Normally in these kind of situations, I'd just run around picking up mobs and pulling them to the other tank's consecrate or D&D like on the Razorscale fight. Now I'm fairly confident that Warrior AOE has been given a fairly good kick in the arse. I feel like my class isn't as deficient as it was in 3.1 any more, and that it's a much more level playing field between the tank classes, even if Paladins can't be killed.

Of course, there's still improvements I'd like to see in the Warrior class. It still annoys me that we have to spend 2 talent points and a glyph to get our Shield Wall down to 2 minutes, something other classes get baseline. But on the whole, it's been such an improvement.

Another small thing that makes a huge difference is the Glyph of Command, a nice little minor glyph that increases Commanding Shout duration by 2 minutes. Doesn't sound like much but it makes things a lot easier than having to keep up the buff all the time, I've been sometimes going to refresh it and noticing 'ah, 3 minute left!', so it just makes things run more smoothly I guess. Bloodrage giving 20 rage instead of 10 is another small but very noticeable buff, you've got a lot more work with at the start of a trash pull or, god help you, if you've got an unlucky avoidance streak on a boss pull.

Really like the new 5 man as well.

Overall, I'm damned happy and impressed.

TheDoc

I'm happy as ever, although there wasn't much change for the warlocks, I met a guy called Rooney who put me on the path of warlock domination, fair play to him helping me no end, I've now doubled my dps easily.


I'm also doing more raids and stuff now, dps still leaves me wanting, but with the new badge gear, instances etc, I'm finding it easier to get gear, though the vast majority of it is still the help from the irish lads.

So maybe not alot has changed for me, that wouldnt have anyway, althoug hthe cheaper mounts and new heirlooms are going to make it alot nicer to level my alts.

magilly

Yeah i pretty much decked my DK toon out in some pretty sick dps gear, managed to get 3 bits of 8.5 + BoH + 4 or 5 offbits.... so yeah its been good.... and yes..... dk's do faceroll in bg's.

Kyri

That new 5 Man instance is IMBA for gearing up alts and even getting mains a few spanky new bits of hit etc to make capping redic easy

Being a shammy the only big plus for us enhancys was the totem drop which is rather handy ^^, bout time they sorted it.

Im soo happy also with the 20k ive made from JC'ing

The Heirloom books for alts flying in Northrend has made leveling my 73 Lock stupidly easy along with the +10% shoulders & now +10% Chest will have 5 more 80s in no time

Having great fun with the new raids though the Northrend Beasts Encounter on 25 was a bit too easy basically free loot so fingers crossed the hard modes il keep us on our toes till the other bosses are gradually released. Though seen as Council etc in 25 Uldar are keeping us busy to I can live with the wait for more of them lol

copeyhagen

biggest load of **** ever, firstly, my dk tank now sucks, way less armor, way less stam, longer cd's.

my hunter hasnt changed too much, although i hear mm is the best spec atm, i stayed surv.

cant move around in game without lagging or crashing, even with 180 fps..

gg blizz

][cEMAN**

copeyhagen wrote: »

biggest load of **** ever, firstly, my dk tank now sucks, way less armor, way less stam, longer cd's.

That's not sucking. That's just en par with the other tanks. Welcome to the game, and take your face off the keyboard

copeyhagen

well i do have a warr tank too i havent logged yet as im sick of laggy ****e

Ivan

' wrote:

[cEMAN**;61541099']That's not sucking. That's just en par with the other tanks. Welcome to the game, and take your face off the keyboard

Please, keep that in mind when they nerf Argent Defender. That thing is ridiculous and I love it

sunzz

whats stupid is a prot paladin out healing a holy paladin and doing so without dropping below 95% mana not to mention have a stun and silence that crit for 5k every 30 seconds.

gg! god this game is so broke.

][cEMAN**

Ivan wrote: »

Please, keep that in mind when they nerf Argent Defender. That thing is ridiculous and I love it

Argent Defender is greatly overpowered at the moment. The no die thing is unnecessary. It's just too easy to tank now because of it, and kinda takes away a bit of the thrill. Though the 35% dmg reduction thing is really just our version of last stand. The difference is that it has no CD, but requires you to be nearly dead before it kicks in. If your healers are keeping you this low constantly, get yourself a new healer.....or better gear.

sunzz wrote: »

whats stupid is a prot paladin out healing a holy paladin and doing so without dropping below 95% mana not to mention have a stun and silence that crit for 5k every 30 seconds.

gg! god this game is so broke.

WTF are you talking about? A prot pally in healing gear? It would have to be a Prot/Holy to get mana back, or enough of a mana pool to keep it from running out too quickly.

Did someone beat you up in pvp? Look at it realistically - it's like fighting a resto druid in pvp now. He can't burst you, but you can't kill him. Paladins are the same in prot/holy - they can heal, and they'll stand up to a good beating, but they can't burst you down.

Either way, a healer with any amount of dmg should be able to take out a pure dps class that can't heal itself. The game's broken? Get a partner. It's rock paper scissor. They can beat you, but someone else can beat them.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I can kill paladins now

][cEMAN**

You wanna kill me, you better bring a friend

Splinter

nope, prot paladins in healing gear are outhealing holy paladins in pvp. blizz have commented on it and intend to fix it. did 2s with my dk partner against a arms warrior and prot pally. mysellf and the warrior dropped and my partner beat on the paladin for 40 minutes....

TheDoc

Seemingly prot paladins are appearing in pvp outhealing holy paladins...

Dont think its on pve yet

Ivan

TheDoc wrote: »

Seemingly prot paladins are appearing in pvp outhealing holy paladins...

Dont think its on pve yet

They arent outhealing Holy Paladins, they are outsurviving Holy paladins and since that is the key to PvP, they are excelling there.

I think it has dropped off a bit since 3.2 but it's still there.

][cEMAN**

It's called Prot/Holy build. The difference in the two is only that you get the extra spellpower as a % of your stamina, instead of as a % of your int.

You get the choice of increased mana pool (int multiplier), or mana regen. You don't get both, and because of it you don't get enough crit% to get loads of mana back. I calculated that based on the average crit% you'd have, even gemming and enchanting pvp gear for int, the mana back works out exactly the same as the int multiplier. Only difference is you never get mana back for your offensive spells, so it's better to just stick with the int multiplier.

I've actually been playing this build since 3.0 when I realised that putting on my holy gear while in my tank build I could get nice heals. I changed up the build a bit and added in the talents from holy.

The only advantage the holy tree is the extra crit, holy shock, and beacon of light.

There are anti poison, stun etc talents in the tree, but they're all for survivability, which prot does with the overall damage reduction. Crit is unnecessary (especially now), as you can't rely on a crit heal, and you need the solid flat high spell power heals. Holy shock is a nice instant cast, but was meant also as a high damage spell. Mostly I found I was using it on myself as I couldn't survive a rogue in pure holy build. Beacon of light is the only real loss here, but not worth the extra points. Putting Sacred Shield on yourself will let you keep standing long enough to heal yourself and your partner.

Since 3.0 the talent trees have been mixed up intentionally so that people don't just throw everything into one tree and see it as a clean cut and boring choice - so say the devs. Does it really surprise you that in the choice of a holy/prot, holy/ret (don't forget how many points you stick in ret to get the extra crit...) you're better surviving to heal rather than healing with huge burst damage?

I'm all for this build - it makes it more like the other healers in BGs. Druids can HoT themselves and run off. Priests can shield themselves or mana burn you so you can't heal. Holy paladins could holy shock.....wow. That's fncking impressive sh1t right there.

sunzz

Are you serious?

you're sitting there defending the fact a TANK in holy gear can out heal a holy paladin.....

Ivan they DO outheal holy paladins (in pvp) not only that they NEVER EVER go oom.
I understand a druid can hot himself and run away, i understand a priest can shiled and mana burn you, but you're forgetting that ALL these classes can and will go oom with sustained pressure something a PROT/HOLY does not do.
If you sit there and try and deny the fact a TANK specd pala in healing gear out heals a holy spec pala in healing gear with regards to 2v2/3v3/5v5 then you need to revamp your whole concept of thought.


Gladly blizzard have seen this and will fix it, sadly not before the season end.

blue post

We are going to fix the specific scenario where a PvP paladin with a Prot build but spell power gear can heal for more than a Holy build in the same gear. We want to do this without messing up the Prot paladin trying to tank in PvE.

We will probably not make this change before the end of the current Arena season, but you can be thinking about your teams for season 7 with this change in mind.
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19110295727&pageNo=1&sid=1#13

As bad as GC is at least he knows that this is broken.

][cEMAN**

sunzz wrote: »

Are you serious?

you're sitting there defending the fact a TANK in holy gear can out heal a holy paladin.....

They survive. As Ivan said, the longer you're alive, the more you can heal.

sunzz wrote: »

Ivan they DO outheal holy paladins (in pvp) not only that they NEVER EVER go oom.

They can do if they're stupid, but you'll find any build of paladin will never go OOM due to talents.

sunzz wrote: »

I understand a druid can hot himself and run away, i understand a priest can shiled and mana burn you, but you're forgetting that ALL these classes can and will go oom with sustained pressure something a PROT/HOLY does not do.

They can regen their mana quite easily. Druids that i've seen only go oom till they pop an inervate. Priests can Mana burn paladins down (which is how you beat them), and they have their shadow pet to get mana back.

sunzz wrote: »

If you sit there and try and deny the fact a TANK specd pala in healing gear out heals a holy spec pala in healing gear with regards to 2v2/3v3/5v5 then you need to revamp your whole concept of thought.

Are you saying it would be better that a holy paladin go into an arena and get killed in a few seconds (after the bubble), but all other healers can stand for a good length of time, just so that their Flash of Light, and Holy Light do bigger heals standing outside the AH in orgrimmar healing some random AFKer?

sunzz wrote: »

We are going to fix the specific scenario where a PvP paladin with a Prot build but spell power gear can heal for more than a Holy build in the same gear. We want to do this without messing up the Prot paladin trying to tank in PvE.

We will probably not make this change before the end of the current Arena season, but you can be thinking about your teams for season 7 with this change in mind.
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

I hope by doing that they'll change the holy tree again, because in 3.2 it got right royally fncked up!

You think changing it from 60% mana back on a crit to 30% back is going to mean changing to holy will keep your mana pool up?

Once they change this, expect to see paladins switching to ret, and teaming up with a druid, if they haven't already.

Then you can start your QQing that with the new resilience changes you can't kill druids any more, or priests, or shaman.

It's always something with you people - it's never your fault that you lose. It's never about finding a way to kill someone and using some ability, it's always about "QQ it's not fair, it's not EZ mode to mash my face on my keyboard and win an arena match QQ".

If you don't like it, stick to PvE where, if Blizzard let you do more with macros, you could program your character to beat any boss while you go AFK.

sunzz

what are you on about/

no matter what way you look at it it's BROKE, hence the change.

tanks out dpsing in 2v2/3v3
tanks out healing in 2v2/3v3

both of the above is broken, hence getting changed.
How can u deny it when a TANK out damages and heals in a pvp environment something which was not intended and i'll state once again "HENCE THE CHANGE"

And what are you on about its always something with you people?

][cEMAN**

Now you're saying out damaging? You're talking out your ass lad. Seriously, you are. Prot/Holy paladins can't dps, they can interrupt. They can dot you up if you don't take it off, and do maybe 1/3 or 1/4 if they're lucky, of their partner's overall dmg.

But out dpsing? Now you're just grasping at straws.

sunzz

lol im takling out my arse

I'm sorry little boy you've seem to misread the above.

when im talking about a TANK out damaging im talking about PROT/RET also known as 0/53/18 or 0/52/19 you take your pick. either way its a TANK

when im talking about a TANK out healing im talking about PROT/HOLY also known as 21/50/0 or 19/52/0 once again take your pick. either way its a TANK

Now as you probably don't have an iota what you're talking about Im kindly going to link you a world wide ranking 2v2 via arenajunkies where 5% of ALL resto/paladin teams play this TANK dps spec. See the bottom line.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/2v2/Druid/Paladin/

I've played against a TANK who has out dpsd me on numerous occasion I'll happily link you an armory just so you don't get the misconception im talking out my arse again.
http://www.arenajunkies.com/team/2v2/US/Bloodscalp/WE_LOVE_JEWS/

Little children should be seen and not heard.

You're telling me that a prot/holy paladin with a 20 second hammer and a 30 second silence which does infact CRIT for 7k+ (Please say im talking out my arse again so i can make you look like a spa again) is not overpowered? not to mention judges/seals/ bubble on 2min effectively with aura mastery.

ITS BROKE. HENCE IT BEING FIXED. Tanks were not ever intended to out heal healers nor out damage dps.
argue all you want but you look like a fool doing so.

As for me talking out my arse, yea wel..........:rolleyes:

Ivan

If you two cant have a discussion about WoW without trying to one up one another and general dickery, you can do it elsewhere.

I and many others are getting sick of this type of bickering, on these forums.

sunzz

I don't see the problem here ivan, I said nothing in any previous post on the thread, he stated I was talking out of my arse.

I made him look like an idiot, what exactly went wrong here?
What exactly was there to mod? or was it simply because "EYE" posted spa in the above post?
See what I did there oh I did it again

][cEMAN**

Nah he wants to discuss the mechanics, by all means. 5% is to be expected. 5% always pull a messed up build. Though i'd say chance are they're like me, and they dual spec because they raid.

Show me the ratings of these tanks though by all means. 0/53/18 is an actual tank. It's not a tank ret build, it's a tank build. Paladin tanks don't put every point into the prot tree.

There is a difference. You obviously don't know it. The reason you can substitute prot talents for holy, is because of the spell power multiplier being high up in either tree, but that the int/mana back being low in the tree.

Retribution though, it's all mana efficency and crit% until half way up the tree. That's just crit, that's really not pure ret. Holy uses it, tanks use it, ret use it. They just happen to be in that tree.

Now the tank you linked was in full Ulduar gear, 25 and 10 mixed, but he a raider from the looks of it. I'd say there's a good chance he has an alt build, but I guess that wouldn't cross your mind.

FULLY raid buffed, and taking sustained direct damage for block to matter, a paladin in that gear would reach 3k dps MAX! They have no real burst damage - that's where the ret talents come in. The most you could manage would be avenging shield, and that's on a 30s CD as you already stated.

If you're a dpser in arena, and you're being out dps'd by a paladin tank, you really are doing something very very wrong.

As a tank in pve gear, you won't last long, unless you have high BV and you go up against an untalented dpser who can't heal himself, like a rogue who stand infront of you while you stand still, and mashes all of his buttons. I've seen enough leave themselves a bloody mess on my shield. However, if you play against someone who knows what they're doing, you don't stand a chance. The only way you do, is by laying hands on yourself, but you can't do that in arena. You could have a healer, but then that's kinda a waste because you're not doing enough burst dmg to take anyone down who has a healer of their own.

So by all means state what we have, as if it's a big secret that we use seals, and that we judge. Every other class just does white dmg don't they? Yeah as prot with holy gear on, we can heal - ret can heal too, but they don't have the mana pool for it.

Healing per mana is greatly lower in prot/holy, than in holy build, and though the heals are bigger (which is kinda the point in pvp because you don't always get them in as often, it has to be burst healing), the only reason to take up prot is survivability.

BY ALL MEANS if blizzard can give holy only paladins more survivability other than a bubble which can be shot through, or dispelled, and make these plate wearers less squishy, then fix it! That's the only way I see it's broken.

BTW if you still think that they tank in arenas with pve gear, consider the reason people use resilience instead of defense...
If they're so high up the rankings, and you state you keep losing to them, i'm sure they must know what they're doing.

Ivan

Sunzz, 7 day suspension for 2nd offense, arguing moderating decisions on thread. You were warned less than a week ago.

cellulite_sally

Looks like ][cEMAN** interfered with your Ego Moderating also but im sure he wont be subjected to a ban

As for prot dps, http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=103685

I've just played against this team
http://eu.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Drak%27thul&ts=2&t=Arcane+mage+takes+skill&select=Arcane+mage+takes+skill

they're around 2600 mmr the same as us, getting hit for 10k shields is not nice.