Sinn Fein officially says NO to Lisbon 2.

PopeBuckfastXVI

worldrepublic wrote: »

I found the Sinn Fein website, they have a number of downloadable documents, including the Treaty itself, and an Alternative guide to the Lisbon Treaty.
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/en/no-2-lisbon-treaty/entry/42

I think they have distributed 500,000 newsletters so far about Lisbon Treaty, so they obviously mean business.

I've been an emphatic Yes voter.... but having just read some of their arguments, I don't know.... I'm starting to change my mind... at home here we had gotten the Government guide to the treaty in the door, but looking at the alternative guide now, well, it's not really as simple as I thought. One thing is for sure, the run up to the vote is going to be something else.

SF Alternative Guide wrote:

It cuts
our voting strength on the Council of Ministers by more than half and ends our
automatic right to a Commissioner. It erodes neutrality.

How old is this Shíte?

worldrepublic

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

How old is this Shíte?

Not very! 2008/2009 covers the period of debate.

PopeBuckfastXVI

worldrepublic wrote: »

Not very! 2008/2009 covers the period of debate.

It's severely out of date for L2.

worldrepublic

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It's severely out of date for L2.

Sinn Fein's position is that the Treaty has not changed "not one comma" as they say, during the period of the debate, i.e. 2008/2009. So you statement that the documentation is "severely" out of date seems to be an exaggeration to say the least.

They also say that the guarantees are worthless. The government, obviously, disagrees.

Simplifying the issues will not make them go away. And obviously a lot of voters are going to work through the arguments that Sinn Fein are putting forward in 500,000 documents for distribution. I am sure they are just getting ready to step this up. But on the other hand, the government is putting out their side of the argument too, so its all good from the point of view of democracy, right? Next month is going to be amazing. Gosh, only seven weeks to go.

oscarBravo

worldrepublic wrote: »

Sinn Fein's position is that the Treaty has not changed "not one comma" as they say...

They also say that the guarantees are worthless.

...

Simplifying the issues will not make them go away.

Doesn't stop Sinn Féin from trying it.

"Nothing whatsoever has changed, vote no again" - it's a nice straightforward policy platform, with the fact that it's completely untrue being only a minor inconvenience.

worldrepublic

oscarBravo wrote: »

Doesn't stop Sinn Féin from trying it.

"Nothing whatsoever has changed, vote no again" - it's a nice straightforward policy platform, with the fact that it's completely untrue being only a minor inconvenience.

"minor inconvenience"?

You seem to be overly confident. There is going to be discussion and debate, like it or not: voters want access to both campaigns. Next month will be amazing.

Imposter

I'm beginning to think that the next (few) referendums that Ireland needs is to change the constitution so that no more referendums are needed! After all what's the point in voting if you have to have the referendum over and over until we agree with the government. It just ends up costing money in terms of having the campaigns and holding the votes. Perhaps if >30% of the dail are against it it might make sense to hold a referendum but otherwise its hard to see how even the most stupid of governments couldn't get a vote through eventually especailly with the backing of all or most of the major parties!

worldrepublic

Imposter wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that the next (few) referendums that Ireland needs is to change the constitution so that no more referendums are needed! After all what's the point in voting if you have to have the referendum over and over until we agree with the government. It just ends up costing money in terms of having the campaigns and holding the votes. Perhaps if >30% of the dail are against it it might make sense to hold a referendum but otherwise its hard to see how even the most stupid of governments couldn't get a vote through eventually especailly with the backing of all or most of the major parties!

No, I believe that referendums are necessary. It means we value the constitution, and see it as an important check on political agendas, or political pockets!

RandomName2

Imposter wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that the next (few) referendums that Ireland needs is to change the constitution so that no more referendums are needed! [...] Perhaps if >30% of the dail are against it it might make sense to hold a referendum but otherwise its hard to see how even the most stupid of governments couldn't get a vote through eventually especailly with the backing of all or most of the major parties!

Should stop having elections while we're at it. I'm sure a Dail majority would support that idea :rolleyes: [i.e. current government]

PopeBuckfastXVI

I can't really see a case for permanent government, but I do think there's a case to be made for allowing the government of the day to ratify complex international treaties.

Scofflaw

Imposter wrote: »

I'm beginning to think that the next (few) referendums that Ireland needs is to change the constitution so that no more referendums are needed! After all what's the point in voting if you have to have the referendum over and over until we agree with the government. It just ends up costing money in terms of having the campaigns and holding the votes. Perhaps if >30% of the dail are against it it might make sense to hold a referendum but otherwise its hard to see how even the most stupid of governments couldn't get a vote through eventually especailly with the backing of all or most of the major parties!

Well, some might say that last year's Lisbon referendum offered a pretty fair example of how to do it...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dr. Baltar

Fair play to them for supporting what is essentially going to be a harder fight to win this time.
I'll be voting no not because of Sinn Féin's support but rather because I believe a second vote for no is a vote for democracy!

Scofflaw

Sir Baralot wrote: »

Fair play to them for supporting what is essentially going to be a harder fight to win this time.
I'll be voting no not because of Sinn Féin's support but rather because I believe a second vote for no is a vote for democracy!

Any vote is a vote for democracy...

cordially,
Scofflaw

RedPlanet

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Because the government went out and ask people why the voted no. The majority said that they didn't know about the Treaty or voted No based on reasons that weren't even in the Treaty itself. .

That's not really true.
I remember criticisms at the time the Sub-Committee on Ireland's Future in the European Union was setup.
Unfortunately i don't have those links.
But, i emailed Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD about it, and he replied right away.
I didn't ask to copy and paste his email response but some of the relevant bits are:

From Sinn Féin’s initial meeting with the Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin TD, prior to the sub-committee's establishment, we engaged with the process at every stage. We were critical of the committee’s composition and its narrow terms of reference. And while we did welcome the opportunity to debate the future of the EU and Ireland’s role in shaping it, we made clear from the outset that we would not collude in a process whose primary purpose was to lay the ground for a rerun of the same failed Lisbon Treaty.

As Oireachtas members we were invited to take part in the all-party committee.

The general public and organisations were invited to make submissions. These submissions were included in the committee's report, published in November 2008.

However, that is the extent of the commitment by the government parties, Fine Gael and Labour to including the people in the committee's work. We argued that the sub-committee should pro-actively engage as broad a section of the public as possible, and that it should meet in open session - outside of Dublin - and listen to the opinions of the people. The government shamefully chose to reject this proposal, with Labour and Fine Gael following suit in their own approach to the committee's work.

The imbalance of speakers to address the sub-committee was stark and again illustrated the chasm between the electorate and Ireland’s decision-makers. Of the 80 or so individuals who addressed the sub-committee, only about ten advocated a rejection of the Treaty.

Having excluded the general public, and having selected a panel of speakers that held the Government’s and indeed Fine Gael and Labour's own view, it was difficult to see how the sub-committee’s report would do anything other than confirm the Government’s own position

The point i'd like to make, was that the speakers were by INVITE only.
It wasn't open to the general public.
The government didn't actually canvass public sentiment at all.
The whole process is just a going-thru-the-motions exercise for a re-run of Lisbon. I wonder did they even ask the public if they wanted to have another vote on Lisbon? The answer of course, is no.

He also mentions that the hearings took an adversarial sort of approach. Where the speaker was "put on trail", infront of the Oireachtas Sub-Committee. Rather than a sort of open mike.

rcecil

quote -- It's not technically the same thing though. Yes the Treaty is the same but we now have legal guarantees this time to safeguard against any of the lies Sinn Fein used last time around so why vote no?

If they were lies why didn't the corporate parties get real changes and not just vague promises. Show them to me in writing. For the honest opposition, visit www.sinnfein.ie

View

rcecil wrote: »

quote -- It's not technically the same thing though. Yes the Treaty is the same but we now have legal guarantees this time to safeguard against any of the lies Sinn Fein used last time around so why vote no?

If they were lies why didn't the corporate parties get real changes and not just vague promises. Show them to me in writing. For the honest opposition, visit www.sinnfein.ie

The Government got the assurances that they believe - rightly or wrongly - will convince a majority of the electorate to support Lisbon.

You didn't actually believe the Government was going to opt for a rewrite of every EU Treaty from the 1950's on just to keep Sinn Fein happy, did you? They want to convince the electorate not alienate them totally...

ei.sdraob

View wrote: »

The Government got the assurances that they believe - rightly or wrongly - will convince a majority of the electorate to support Lisbon.

You didn't actually believe the Government was going to opt for a rewrite of every EU Treaty from the 1950's on just to keep Sinn Fein happy, did you? They want to convince the electorate not alienate them totally...

when were SF happy about any EU Treaty?

up to and including joining the EU back in 70s

if SF had their way, what would Ireland look like now? shudders at the taught :eek:

oscarBravo

rcecil wrote: »

Show them to me in writing.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055617733