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'Tyrone village driven mad by British army helicopters'

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    #62
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My brother lives in London. He feels alienated by the British government (as do most English people). He recognises himself as Irish.

    Do you think he should ask the Irish government to put in a word with Gordon Brown on his behalf?

    If the British government asked the Irish government not to conduct military exercises on Achill because it was annoying some English people who lived there, the Irish government should tell the British government to get bent. The opposite is equally the case.

    I disagree, respectfully.

    In as volatile a place as Northern Ireland... If they Irish government approached the British government maybe at the British Irish Council. Perhaps they might consider it a gesture of Good will to the nationalist people of the North to at least consider the request?

    Can you accept PR might improve for the British governments position among nationalists in Northern Ireland?

    I am not arguing the status of Northern Ireland within the UK. The majority want to remain there and that is ok with me. However there is a large minority who to say the least are not comfortable with the British government. They recognise themselves as Irish as do the British government. So it is not that totally out of bounds for them to look to the Dáil for assistance.


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    #63
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Deedsie wrote: »
    In as volatile a place as Northern Ireland... If they Irish government approached the British government maybe at the British Irish Council. Perhaps they might consider it a gesture of Good will to the nationalist people of the North to at least consider the request?

    How many more gestures of goodwill will be needed? This isn't anything to do with NI, or nationalists. This isn't internment, or road blocks, or stop and search. This is the BA, using an aerodrome that's been there for donkeys years to train helicopter crews preparing for deployment abroad, and they even manage to throw a dig in at that in the article.
    Deedsie wrote: »
    Can you accept PR might improve for the British governments position among nationalists in Northern Ireland?

    No. The PR will never improve for the UK government no matter what they do IMO. Most posts on here about it have been simply sectarianism and another excuse to blame someone. If the RAF train somewhere else there'll be some other "issue" to protest about.
    Deedsie wrote: »
    I am not arguing the status of Northern Ireland within the UK. The majority want to remain there and that is ok with me. However there is a large minority who to say the least are not comfortable with the British government. They recognise themselves as Irish as do the British government. So it is not that totally out of bounds for them to look to the Dáil for assistance.

    Not out of bounds. However it is irrelevant. It is no business of the Dáil if an RAF helicopter is training in Tyrone.


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    #64
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Note from which side the pretty mindedness and triviality comes from in this thread.

    "It isnt in this country", "British military can do as they like in Britian", "even if they are Irish citizens, they live in the UK."

    Offcourse in the real world the Irish government has a strong relationship with the British govt, they co-operate closely and have a mutual interest in diffusing any controversial issues and situations in the North.

    So to the contrary of what one particularly tedious poster said, where the Irish government to raise the issue there is a fair chance of something being done – much more so then if a Tyrone farmer sends a letter to the MOD.

    The smart alec partitionists might not grasp this, but the Irish border farmer understands it well enough.


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    #65
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,079 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    These exercises take place all over the UK, and the farmers have a bit of a moan. That's about it really. Sometimes they bring excitement to dull lives.


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    #66
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    So to the contrary of what one particularly tedious poster said...
    Which poster was that?


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    #67
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    If illegal Irish in the US wanted the Irish government to ask the US government to stop conducting military exercises near them, I suspect the Irish government would tell them where to go.

    I think it is profoundly insulting to compare people who have lived in a place all their lives and who are complaining about an Army from elsewhere, with people who have illegally immigrated into a country complaining about that country's army. But then moderators can say what they like without sanction.
    Would you support British citizens living in the Republic of Ireland complaining to the British government about our army or gardaí ?

    This is a false symmetry, which either reflects a lack of understanding or a deliberate ignoring of the situation. There is an enormous difference between citizens who move to another country, and those who are incorporated into it by occupation. In the same way there is a difference in the obligations on citizens in an occupied country and a normal State. I suggest that people in an occupied country do not have to put with this racket. The fourth Geneva convention states that for the civilian population "despite occupation and war it is allowed to live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with its own laws, culture and traditions".

    And before someone says that NI is not an occupied territory would they mind saying on what date its occupation ended.


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    #68
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ardmacha wrote: »
    And before someone says that NI is not an occupied territory would they mind saying on what date its occupation ended.

    When did it begin?


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    #69
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    They could have a bit of a whinge to the British government. Nothing would happen.

    They could have a bit of a whinge to the Irish government. Nothing would happen.

    Perhaps they need to follow in the footsteps of the Welsh?

    piss_off_biggles.jpeg


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    #70
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    prinz wrote: »
    Living in a lovely locality in north Dublin at the moment means I have the garda helicopter overhead a couple of times a week for almost 2 years now. It's aggravating at times but that's life.

    I too am from North Dublin and grew up there most of my life. Thing is, I do not remember a civil conflict between the Gardai and the local populace, do you?
    prinz wrote:
    How many more gestures of goodwill will be needed? This isn't anything to do with NI, or nationalists. This isn't internment, or road blocks, or stop and search. This is the BA, using an aerodrome that's been there for donkeys years to train helicopter crews preparing for deployment abroad, and they even manage to throw a dig in at that in the article.

    Then do it away from the local population who do not want them there.

    Also, you fundamentally disagree with the SDLP and SF on this one.
    jonoliver28 wrote:
    However what the hell has military operations got to do with training in ireland, especially when its part of the british isles

    Insensitive post, that is stirring it.
    jonoliver28 wrote:
    I liver in Lincolnshire all my life and moved within the last 5 years, night after night the sound of military jets, jaguars, tornados, eurofighters, its part of our armed forces and i for one are proud of them and can even train over my back garden as i have no problems, its extremley rare the raf or the british army to break the law, whilst mouthing off here, why dont you do something constructive and contact the air authority or local authority and log an official complaint over the airspace violations they have commited, all training flights are logged and certain height is mandatory for any pilot, so with regards to a 100foot, i dont believe you

    (read the article, the paper stated it, not the poster)

    You support them, the locals in Ardboe who are Irish citizens do not. Big difference.


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    #71
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ardmacha wrote: »
    This is a false symmetry, which either reflects a lack of understanding or a deliberate ignoring of the situation. There is an enormous difference between citizens who move to another country, and those who are incorporated into it by occupation. In the same way there is a difference in the obligations on citizens in an occupied country and a normal State. I suggest that people in an occupied country do not have to put with this racket. The fourth Geneva convention states that for the civilian population "despite occupation and war it is allowed to live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with its own laws, culture and traditions".

    Was the Good Friday Agreement just a dream I had?


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    #72
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    Note from which side the pretty mindedness and triviality comes from in this thread.
    "It isnt in this country", "British military can do as they like in Britian", "even if they are Irish citizens, they live in the UK."

    I know facts and reality are difficult for some to grasp and come to terms with, but they are neither petty nor trivial.
    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    The smart alec partitionists might not grasp this, but the Irish border farmer understands it well enough.

    You're right there. Slab and his pals had plenty of practice playing the border sure didn't they? :rolleyes:. You might also want to check a map because forgive me if I'm wrong but Ardboe Co. Tyrone is nowhere near the border. :confused:. Anywho the Irish government have more to be concerned with tbh, than to get involved in a domestic non-issue like this north of the border. As the OP pointed out not even SF were pushed about getting involved apparently, so the chances of the Dáil concerning itself with frightened cattle is laughable.


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    #73
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    gurramok wrote: »
    I too am from North Dublin and grew up there most of my life. Thing is, I do not remember a civil conflict between the Gardai and the local populace, do you?
    Then do it away from the local population who do not want them there.

    So the problem isn't actually the helicopter noise at all is that right? It's who is in the helicopter and who owns the helicopter....funny here was I thinking he wanted some peace and quiet when all along it's just thinly veiled anti-BA ramblings. Who would have thought it.Out of all of Northern Ireland I'll think you'll find Ardboe represents one of the best places for a helicopter to base itself for training flights.
    gurramok wrote: »
    Also, you fundamentally disagree with the SDLP and SF on this one.

    Thank God for that. The day I fundamentally agree with SF on anything will be a very very very very very very sad one.


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    #74
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    prinz wrote: »
    So the problem isn't actually the helicopter noise at all is that right? It's who is in the helicopter and who owns the helicopter....funny here was I thinking he wanted some peace and quiet when all along it's just thinly veiled anti-BA ramblings. Who would have thought it.Out of all of Northern Ireland I'll think you'll find Ardboe represents one of the best places for a helicopter to base itself for training flights.

    Yes it is. You do not aggravate a local population who do not support you. You'd swear they are trying to break the NI peace dividend by these aggressive actions.
    prinz wrote:
    Thank God for that. The day I fundamentally agree with SF on anything will be a very very very very very very sad one.

    You disagree with the SDLP as you do not care about the Irish citizens who are represented by the SDLP.


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    #75
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    gurramok wrote: »
    I too am from North Dublin and grew up there most of my life. Thing is, I do not remember a civil conflict between the Gardai and the local populace, do you?

    O RLY?


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    #76
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    IRLConor wrote: »
    O RLY?

    Yes, the entire population of that area, old folks and women and young children came out in their thousands to attack the Gardai in that area on a regular basis for 30 years as they do not accept the Gardai as the legitimate police force.

    Hope your post is sarcasm as what i just wrote above was.


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    #77
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Out of all of Northern Ireland I'll think you'll find Ardboe represents one of the best places for a helicopter to base itself for training flights.

    There is no need to have these in NI at all. Why should the British army not train in Britain, or in the Malvinas is they want a change.


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    #78
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes it is. You do not aggravate a local population who do not support you. You'd swear they are trying to break the NI peace dividend by these aggressive actions.

    They are not displaying the slightest hint of aggression :rolleyes:
    gurramok wrote: »
    You disagree with the SDLP as you do not care about the Irish citizens who are represented by the SDLP.

    In case you hadn't noticed the SDLP's share of the vote in NI has more or less collapsed.


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    #79
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    prinz wrote: »
    Countrymen? I feel about as bad for them as I would for someone being bothered by helicopters in Norfolk, or the Hebrides. They're not my countrymen. That said helicopters at night aren't fun. Have had to get used to the aforementioned Garda helicopter buzzing overhead quite frequently. Perhaps I should lobby Gordon Brown to sort it out. Just another case of NIMBY-ism tbh.


    Spot on Prinz, nothing to do with this state.

    people are quite capable of accepting the advantages of the UK health system but don't want what goes with it.

    I would tell these people to whinge on Boards.uk

    Nothing to do with us.


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    #80
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ardmacha wrote: »
    There is no need to have these in NI at all. Why should the British army not train in Britain, or in the Malvinas Falklands if they want a change.

    The legitimate armed forces of the United Kingdom have every right to train anywhere they see fit in the United Kingdom without asking permission from the Dáil. FYP by the way.


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    #81
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    prinz wrote: »
    They are not displaying the slightest hint of aggression :rolleyes:

    Yes they are. Did you not read the article about frightened huddled kids during the night due to the helicopters?
    In case you hadn't noticed the SDLP's share of the vote in NI has more or less collapsed.

    So? They still represent many tens of thousands of people and their mandate has to be respected for they speak on behalf of Irish citizens as well as SF.


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    #82
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gurramok wrote: »
    Yes they are. Did you not read the article about frightened huddled kids during the night due to the helicopters?
    I've seen frightened huddled kids (and adults) during thunderstorms. That doesn't make cumulonimbus clouds aggressive.


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    #83
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    The legitimate armed forces

    These debates always come back to what the "legal" powers can do, without reference to morality. Some of the people on this board would have been perfectly happy with the activities in Hitler's Germany on the basis that they legal government had authorised them. Discussion on a politics forum has to concern itself whether something is appropriate or right as well as legal.


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    #84
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I've seen frightened huddled kids (and adults) during thunderstorms. That doesn't make cumulonimbus clouds aggressive.

    I was one of them in the 1985 thunderstorm over Dublin. There was no control over that, the thunder does not answer to human sensitivities below them.

    In this case, its humans in flying machines who are doing the thunder deed and have the ability to stop it due to sensitivities of the humans below them as well as poor frightened animals.


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    #85
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gurramok wrote: »
    In this case, its humans in flying machines who are doing the thunder deed and have the ability to stop it due to sensitivities of the humans below them as well as poor frightened animals.
    It's just a helicopter.

    If the RAF were strafing them, I'd agree that something ought to be done. But it's just a bloody helicopter.

    I've had an Air Corps PC-9 buzzing past the house on several occasions lately. Coast Guard Sikorsky helicopters go over all the time. I cope, somehow.


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    #86
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    surely a rural area is the place to carry out training isn't it? doing it in a city would only disturb even more people.

    still, at least all those new mountains being made out of mole hills will make the area more scenic.
    Maybe they should confine their training to their own island. You sometimes think the concessions in the GFA were all on the Irish side
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I guess a lot will depend on where they regiment is based. Their main training will probably take place in a more suitable place, but they might want to train a new pilot in a bit or try out a new technique before going off on location.



    If they were carrying out full training for a deployment to Afghanistan, those cows would be burgers by now.



    Dartmoor is already used extensively by the Army.

    Hopefully, the people of Afghanistan will be better equiped to deal with the British army nuisance factor than the people of Tyrone are. And with some good luck, they won't get to come back here


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    #87
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    prinz wrote: »
    Countrymen? I feel about as bad for them as I would for someone being bothered by helicopters in Norfolk, or the Hebrides. They're not my countrymen.
    I'd say they would be happy to have as little to do with you as possible too.


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    #88
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's just a helicopter.

    If the RAF were strafing them, I'd agree that something ought to be done. But it's just a bloody helicopter.

    I've had an Air Corps PC-9 buzzing past the house on several occasions lately. Coast Guard Sikorsky helicopters go over all the time. I cope, somehow.

    Not at that hour of night. Sound is louder at night!

    In that case, you have no qualms with the builders digging up at the end of the road at 1am with producing the exact same level of noise as after all your sleeping concerns are of nothing to them.


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    #89
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    IIMII wrote: »
    Maybe they should confine their training to their own island. You sometimes think the concessions in the GFA were all on the Irish side


    Well based on the fact that they are pumping huge sums of money into NI, I kinda think it gives them some right to train wherever they like,within reason of course.

    I'm sure they would say that they are acting within the parameters for this kind of scenario.


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    #90
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    gurramok wrote: »
    In that case, you have no qualms with the builders digging up at the end of the road at 1am with producing the exact same level of noise as after all your sleeping concerns are of nothing to them.
    It would be a nuisance, yes, but I don't think I'd be huddling terrified in the corner.

    I also wouldn't expect the British government to do anything about it.


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    #91
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    jonoliver28 wrote: »
    its extremley rare the raf or the british army to break the law
    :rolleyes:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7471825.stm

    Obviously


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