What secure storage category are you in?

rrpc

sfakiaman wrote: »

Whats the story with one restricted And three unrestricted. As always I seem to fall between two stools (no smart ar%e remarks please). However I do have a gun safe and ammo safe in a walk in cupboard with a five lever mortice lock and monitored alarm so should be OK. The crazy thing about the alarm is I'm 45 minutes from a full-time Garda station.

You'd fall into section three. Section two is 1R or 3UR so seeing as you have four, you're outside the scope of Section 2.

burke08

im applying for a o/u shotgun.

do i need to buy a gunsafe??

Cass

Type and number of firearms Secure accommodation standard
1 One non-restricted shot-gun.The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.


No. If its just the one gun (shotgun)

rrpc

burke08 wrote: »

im applying for a o/u shotgun.

do i need to buy a gunsafe??

If that's all you will have, then according to the list; no.

You will need a trigger lock though and keep the shottie disassembled when not in use.

Having said that, I would recommend a safe, even if only as somewhere to store things safely and keep ammo out of harms way.

riflehunter77

Lads am i been paranoid this poll is up only 12 hours and it has 589 views, i know its been busy on this forum at the moment with the change of licences and people looking for new info. But I thought there would of been more interest in other sections reguarding the new format and not on what secure storage category you come under. Maybe its just me but it seems a little odd.

jaycee

Its a bit premature discussing the levels of security needed without seeing the amended restricted list .

You run the risk of either ...

A. Thinking you need more security than you actually do.

OR..

B. Thinking you need less security than you actually do.

If you don't know for sure yet what is or is not restricted , how can you possibly calculate your requirements ?
Better I think to wait and see what rewrites it may contain before assuming anything and perhaps spending money unwisely.
It will be available soon enough and will avoid all the guesswork.

Potential 'group buy schemes' work best when there are fixed requirements across the board.
That won't be the case with alarm systems, but I'm sure someone might try to cash in on it anyway .

Perhaps a group buy might be possible with regard to basic approved gunsafes.
Apparently quite a lot of people will be surprised to find they need one at all.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

sfakiaman wrote: »

Whats the story with one restricted And three unrestricted. As always I seem to fall between two stools (no smart ar%e remarks please). However I do have a gun safe and ammo safe in a walk in cupboard with a five lever mortice lock and monitored alarm so should be OK. The crazy thing about the alarm is I'm 45 minutes from a full-time Garda station.

Sorry for the off topic, but how do you live so far from a full-time garda station? Do you mean driving or walking?

I don't actually understand the table too well

The gun I own is very secure, the parts are allways seperated. Bolt and magazines are always stored in a differant location. A key is needed to get into the gun room which is hidden, the gun safe is bolted to the wall. The room is not obvious either. We also have an alarm. Not too sure about the alarm though. Ammunition is stored in a seperate safe. The locks on the safe are the biggest I could get. You know the heavy round ones? I have a trigger lock too, but don't always use it.

I consider my gun to be in a pretty safe place.

psomers

rrpc wrote: »

By the way there have been efforts by some associations to get a group price for alarm systems for their members.

It's had some success the last I heard but there are difficulties in getting a deal nationwide and for a set baseline. In other words, if you already have an alarm, or part alarm it's very hard to get an upgrade cost without knowing what exact equipment is installed and how old it is.

It's easier for a green field so to speak where there's no equipment installed, but yet again there are difficulties depending on the size of house, number of windows/doors etc.

It's not been given up on, just taking a bit more time than first envisaged.

That more useful?

Cason Curved Honeycomb wrote: »

Sorry for the off topic, but how do you live so far from a full-time garda station? Do you mean driving or walking?

I don't actually understand the table too well

The gun I own is very secure, the parts are allways seperated. Bolt and magazines are always stored in a differant location. A key is needed to get into the gun room which is hidden, the gun safe is bolted to the wall. The room is not obvious either. We also have an alarm. Not too sure about the alarm though. Ammunition is stored in a seperate safe. The locks on the safe are the biggest I could get. You know the heavy round ones? I have a trigger lock too, but don't always use it.

I consider my gun to be in a pretty safe place.

Hi Cason Curved Honeycomb, I am not sure about sfakiaman, but where I live is 15 minutes away from the nearest Garda station, but they only open between 10am and 4pm (roughly), after that the district Garda station is 40 minutes away, but they do not patrol this area because they are understaffed. Should my neighbors alarm go off (1 mile away), I would have to be outside to hear it, and although they have eircom phonewatch on two occasions over the last year it took the Garda 5:15 to get to the house on the first, and on the second I rang them to let them know it was a false alarm (but their phone was not even on divert..

For myself, should the parameter of the house be disturbed, I get a text message on the phone where I can log onto the internet and physically see who the intruder is, to my horror on the last occasion it was a neighbors daughter and girlfriend who went into the back garden to use the hot tub. Security ahh

rrpc

jaycee wrote: »

Its a bit premature discussing the levels of security needed without seeing the amended restricted list .

You run the risk of either ...

A. Thinking you need more security than you actually do.

OR..

B. Thinking you need less security than you actually do.

If you don't know for sure yet what is or is not restricted , how can you possibly calculate your requirements ?
Better I think to wait and see what rewrites it may contain before assuming anything and perhaps spending money unwisely.
It will be available soon enough and will avoid all the guesswork.

For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs. For those with two or less potentially restricted firearms or none at all, the situation is quite clear.

Most importantly though is that you can only fill in the form with the information that you have to hand and currently SI 21 of 2008 is the one in force and not SI XXX of 2009.

But for at least 50% of the people here (according to the poll), restricted firearms don't come into it at all.

btw, I don't know what you mean by 'cashing in' on a group buy scheme for alarm installations. My understanding of these schemes is that you agree a specific price with X installer for your members and they get that rate when they sign up for an installation. The value goes straight to the member and the installer has a new market.

Darr

Hi Guys ,
I just managed to get a 20% discount for a major ( munster area) alarm supplier , fully approved and licensed ..
Our club has 100 + members so if we could do it .. some of the bigger clubs would Im sure be able to do better ..

its a recession guys .. contact your clubs and get them to do the calling . .. power in numbers .

Dar

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs.

Except that

• they haven't (all restricted licence owners are in the first group, but they're not the only people in that first group, as several posters here have shown, myself included);
• they are not allowed to do so by law (specifically section 5(a) of SI 295 of 2009); and
• the DoJ has already stated in writing that the onus for deciding if your firearm is restricted lies with the applicant, not the Gardai.

And if there's a change in the Restricted List imminent, we'd all be better off waiting; because otherwise you might get a nonrestricted licence now, and then the list changes and your licence becomes invalid and you have to reapply, possibly with a higher secure storage requirement.

Sparks

BTW, don't forget that for the higher end of the secure accomodation requirements, it's not enough to get the safe and alarm fitted, it must also be maintained by a certified technician. Which might mean you just call the guy back if it breaks, but might also mean that you need a service contract...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Except that

• they haven't (all restricted licence owners are in the first group, but they're not the only people in that first group, as several posters here have shown, myself included);

I said potentially restricted for a reason :rolleyes:

they are not allowed to do so by law (specifically section 5(a) of SI 295 of 2009); and
he DoJ has already stated in writing that the onus for deciding if your firearm is restricted lies with the applicant, not the Gardai.

ditto

And if there's a change in the Restricted List imminent, we'd all be better off waiting; because otherwise you might get a nonrestricted licence now, and then the list changes and your licence becomes invalid and you have to reapply, possibly with a higher secure storage requirement.

And I said that for almost 50% of people on here that's not the case as they are either unrestricted firearms owners under current legislation or they have less than the minimum required to jump to the next section.

Otherwise you are telling O/U shotgun owners etc. to wait for the SI before applying.

psomers

Hey Sparks (I now know why that's your name) and RRPC,

From previous POLL's that you have run would this POLL be quite relistic in the sence that it has 778 views yet only 64 people who have indicated which catagory they fall into? How many people subscribe to the Shooting section?

Rgs

P

Hagar

I'm sure lots of people like myself who used to shoot but don't currently read here a lot. Naturally we wouldn't vote. It's a very interesting forum even if you're not an active shooter.

jaycee

Originally Posted by rrpc
For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs.

Not True..
We can draw no conclusions from either the batchs of extensions or the date they are extended to in regard to non-restricted firearms.

I can personally vouch for one extension for the shortest period where the firearm in question is what would be classed as unrestricted under the existing and soon to be amended order.

The firearm is a bolt action remington 700 rifle , below .308 calibre. It is the only firearm the person in question owns. Therefore it is safe to conclude that much is speculation and possible confusing to people.
As Sparks said .. better to wait and see.

Most importantly though is that you can only fill in the form with the information that you have to hand and currently SI 21 of 2008 is the one in force and not SI XXX of 2009.

Again .. the onus is on the applicant to use the most accurate information available ,
so ... in the knowledge that that information is to be updated shortly it is best to wait rather than make a mistake.

But for at least 50% of the people here (according to the poll), restricted firearms don't come into it at all

The key phrases here are .. 'According to the poll ' ..and 'Restricted firearms' both based on something that we all know is being updated.

My understanding of these schemes is that you agree a specific price with X installer for your members and they get that rate when they sign up for an installation.

In practical terms , where there are many variables a fixed price is impossible. The level of security required, the amount of doors and windows in a house the recommendations of the crime prevention officer . and the conditions stipulated by either the Superintendent or the Chief Superintendent will vary from case to case.

The notion of a fixed price in these circumstances ,while well intentioned , is flawed. It would be as difficult as giving a fixed price for building a house , how many rooms ?, how many windows? how many doors.?

Percentage discounts commonly result in prices being 'padded' so that the theoretical 'saving' is almost nil .

Basic approved Gun safes on the other hand are a different matter because price comparisons are easily made.

rrpc

psomers wrote: »

Hey Sparks (I now know why that's your name) and RRPC,

From previous POLL's that you have run would this POLL be quite relistic in the sence that it has 778 views yet only 64 people who have indicated which catagory they fall into? How many people subscribe to the Shooting section?

Rgs

P

Everytime someone looks at this thread it's counted as a 'view'. So if you come back to it ten times, that's 10 views.

Understand?

Bananaman

psomers wrote: »

to my horror on the last occasion it was a neighbors daughter and girlfriend who went into the back garden to use the hot tub.

In that case an investment worth having.



B'Man

rrpc

jaycee wrote: »

Not True..
We can draw no conclusions from either the batchs of extensions or the date they are extended to in regard to non-restricted firearms.

Well we can because it's stated in the firearms act.

Granted there are going to be exceptions. The foibles of the firearms licensing system are well known and the errors on certs are legendary; such as IRLConor's 105mm Walther

Again .. the onus is on the applicant to use the most accurate information available ,
so ... in the knowledge that that information is to be updated shortly it is best to wait rather than make a mistake.

No, the onus is to get the application in, in time. Legally speaking we are still operating under the 2008 SI. As Sparks said, the onus is on the applicant to declare if his/her firearm is restricted and it's up to them to make that judgment based on the current legislation. For all we know, a new restricted SI could be months away regardless of what some people are saying here.

The key issue is whether your firearm is restricted or not at the time you fill in the form. And as I pointed out, the average O/U shottie is in level 1, but if you have a safe, you're covered up to level 2. People at the margins should be more careful, but again I think its safe to say that most people who are in level 4, won't be in level 3 if there is a new SI.

In practical terms , where there are many variables a fixed price is impossible. The level of security required, the amount of doors and windows in a house the recommendations of the crime prevention officer . and the conditions stipulated by either the Superintendent or the Chief Superintendent will vary from case to case.

That's quite true. You can still get an estimate for an alarm based on averages, with additional costs specified though.

So you get a price on your average semi-d with 5 downstairs windows, 6 upstairs windows and two doors with prices for additional windows or doors specified. Not too difficult at all.

Sparks

RRPC, if you have an extension that ends on 31/10/09, that tells you precisely nothing whatsoever about the restricted/non-restricted status of your firearm, for the same reason that not all dogs are poodles.

And the onus is on the applicant to apply for the correct licence type. The DoJ have specified that in writing in february 2008. And until we get a date for the new Restricted List (and it's existance is confirmed by the DoJ), or get an unofficial look at its contents at least, anyone applying may wind up having to redo their application, and possibly increase their security arrangements. It may be that we're not looking at too many people here, but we don't actually know that for sure, not yet.

pajero2005

jaycee wrote: »

In practical terms , where there are many variables a fixed price is impossible. The level of security required, the amount of doors and windows in a house the recommendations of the crime prevention officer . and the conditions stipulated by either the Superintendent or the Chief Superintendent will vary from case to case.

The notion of a fixed price in these circumstances ,while well intentioned , is flawed. It would be as difficult as giving a fixed price for building a house , how many rooms ?, how many windows? how many doors.?

Percentage discounts commonly result in prices being 'padded' so that the theoretical 'saving' is almost nil .

A price could be given as a basic package. Take an average 3 bed semi. 3 windows to front, 4 to rear and 2 enterance doors. This will cost €xxx and for each extra window/door an agreed extra cost is encoured by the home owner. I think most of these alarms are wireless now (from control panel to each sensor) so the company wouldn't have to take into account meterage of cables.

Seems possible to me, with a little planning and a few phone calls.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

RRPC, if you have an extension that ends on 31/10/09, that tells you precisely nothing whatsoever about the restricted/non-restricted status of your firearm, for the same reason that not all dogs are poodles.

"Notwithstanding paragraph (b), those certificates relating to firearms that would be deemed to be restricted firearms in accordance with section 29 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 shall be assigned to the first group established"

pajero2005

rrpc wrote: »

So you get a price on your average semi-d with 5 downstairs windows, 6 upstairs windows and two doors with prices for additional windows or doors specified. Not too difficult at all.

Just copped this after I posted. Sorry for putting same logical point out there.

Sparks

Yes, exactly rrpc.
So if you're in any group after the first one, you know for sure that the Gardai don't think your firearms are restricted. And if you're in the first group, you know for sure that either the Gardai think your firearm is restricted, or they don't think it's restricted.

Which means that what group you're in tells you nothing useful about your restricted/nonrestricted status, because:

• If you're in group one, you might or might not be thought of as being restricted;
• If you're in any other group, you're not thought of as being restricted

This means that even if the Gardai make no mistakes, if you're in group one you don't know if you're one of the restricted or one of the randomly-assigned non-restricted applicants who are also in group one. And if they do make a mistake (and they're only human), then being in any group other than group one doesn't tell you much for certain either.

And don't forget, the onus is on you, the applicant to get it right rather than the Gardai who would suffer no penalty for a mistake in this determination.

jaycee

Originally Posted by rrpc
For a start, we might not know, but the Gardai certainly do and have indicated what is potentially restricted by the extension dates on people's certs.

Not True..
We can draw no conclusions from either the batchs of extensions or the date they are extended to in regard to non-restricted firearms

.

Therefore it is safe to conclude that much is speculation and possible confusing to people.

Well we can because it's stated in the firearms act.

Granted there are going to be exceptions. The foibles of the firearms licensing system are well known and the errors on certs are legendary

So .. you stated in the first place that the extension date is an indication of the potential for something to be restricted, then you quote an example of an exception to that , and indicate that in your opinion the system is flawed to a legendary degree .

So.. How does that contradict my point about the possibility of confusing people and the wisdom of waiting ??
OMG .. are you agreeing with me .. ? My apologies. :rolleyes:

You can still get an estimate for an alarm based on averages,

A very different situation than the previous idea of a 'Specific price'

No, the onus is to get the application in, in time.

Accuracy is a well established concept in shooting ..and form filling.. There is no need to submit an application in the immediate future.and as to the timeframe for the publication of the new SI .. we are reliably informed that the updated version should be available sometime in the next couple of weeks and possibly sooner.

Incorrectly filled in applications will be returned to the sender causing even further delays.

The key issue is whether your firearm is restricted or not at the time you fill in the form.

Incorrect .. the key issue will be whether your form is correctly filled in according to the then current legislation at the time that it is processed.


The air of panic going about to submit all applications asap is unhelpful and needless and public statements to that effect are there for all to see.

Sparks

Sneak peek at the new restricted list.

rrpc

jaycee wrote: »

.
So .. you stated in the first place that the extension date is an indication of the potential for something to be restricted, then you quote an example of an exception to that , and indicate that in your opinion the system is flawed to a legendary degree .

So.. How does that contradict my point about the possibility of confusing people and the wisdom of waiting ??
OMG .. are you agreeing with me .. ? My apologies. :rolleyes:

Because the errors on the certs don't change the character of the firearm being licensed. And I referred each time to O/U shotties and the poll that indicated that 50% of people here were outside the restricted class so it's irrelevant to them. After that, we are making the huge assumption that they can count the number of firearms they have.:D

A very different situation than the previous idea of a 'Specific price'

Read my original post jaycee, I never mentioned a fixed price, I mentioned a group rate. It was you that turned that into a fixed price.

The air of panic going about to submit all applications asap is unhelpful and needless and public statements to that effect are there for all to see.

Nobody is telling people to apply asap. The only ones that are under any significant time pressure are those in the 31st October 2009 group.

And seeing as the applications can be deliberated on for up to three months without decision, delaying unnecessarily could cause a problem.

And just to reiterate, I said 'could' be a problem.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Nobody is telling people to apply asap. The only ones that are under any significant time pressure are those in the 31st October 2009 group.
And seeing as the applications can be deliberated on for up to three months without decision, delaying unnecessarily could cause a problem.

Um.
Surely saying that there's significant time pressure is telling people to apply asap (and the point that it's just the first group isn't really that much of an amelioration because they include the restricted folks).


BTW, there's the point that the group assignments were supposed to have been done by the Restricted List that is currently in force; if that list changes during the next year, then isn't it possible that someone who wasn't in the first group might have their firearm change status from unrestricted to restricted? So what group they're in would be even less useful then.

For example, if you own a Browning Buckmark or Hammerli X-esse (which are reasonably popular and currently unrestricted), you might be in, say, group 7 -- but if the sneak peek at the new list is correct, they're now going to be applying for a restricted licence.

So group number isn't really going to be too handy to be honest.

And yes, waiting is the best advice I can think of as well at this stage.

Rovi

The SSAI are advising that people hold off on applications until the 2009 Restricted List and Commissioner's Guidelines are published:
http://www.ssai.ie/

Notice relating to firearms applications

Over the past few days we have been inundated with questions from shooters seeking detail on completion and submission of the new firearms certificate application forms.
Typically these questions related to the (2009) Restricted List and the Commissioners Guidelines.
Unfortunately at present neither of these documents are available.

Therefore we are advising shooters, who are understandably concerned at the lack of information, to wait for a couple of weeks before completing and submitting applications. I would expect that the situation with regard to the (2009) Restricted List and the Commissioners Guidelines to be resolved by then.

Please note that any relevant documents together with a summary of key points will be posted on this website as they become available.

Joe Costello
Chairman SSAI.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

For example, if you own a Browning Buckmark or Hammerli X-esse (which are reasonably popular and currently unrestricted), you might be in, say, group 7 -- but if the sneak peek at the new list is correct, they're now going to be applying for a restricted licence.

So group number isn't really going to be too handy to be honest.

See my original post for why that's hooey too

As in the Gardai already know what the restricted SI is going to look like a lot sooner than you or I.