The Orange Lodges

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote: »

Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

If this was The US of A, the paragon of freedom and democracy, that would not be tolerated in fairness. Personally I don't care if they want to wave a Union Jack on their parades but if they go out of their way to use that flag waving to goad people people of another religious or political belief then they have crossed the line into incitement and should be subject to the rule of law. I have never heard of Republic based Unionist do that I'm happy to say.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote: »

So your problem with them is that they want to work towards a change in the legal status of part of this island? Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

Can you see where I'm going with this?

Yes i do. Anyone can have allegiance to a foreign flag when residing here. Its when they use that allegiance against the Irish state is where the issue is just like trying to change the legal status of the wish of the Irish people considering the history of the organisation they are involved in.

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't want the Republic of Ireland to be a part of the UK.

Good to hear, i'm surprised :eek:

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't particularly care whether Northern Ireland is in the UK or the republic, as long as it's achieved peacefully.

I don't care how other people feel about these things, as long as they're not prepared to hurt others to achieve their goals.

Thats grand so. Its the history of the OO where it was formed out of violence and where in more recent years its members and supporters have been violent at marches which gives great concern as to what their membership is up to in ROI.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I reject your suggestion and put forth that many members (but not all) of the Orange Order are troublesome loyalists, which was evident on a number of occasions during the Drumcree troubles and that this is one of the reasons for the upstart of the violence. I do hope that that is ok with you.

I would suggest that many members of the OO are fat old farts who enjoy a good day out,few cups of tea and the hip flask.

What gives them a certain credence is the rent a mob in the Celtic jersies who seem to spring out of nowhere when these events occur.

How about ignoring these neanderthals and let them march all they like.

They will eventually look like fools .

However if people still react and light the tinder of conflageration, then they will look like heroes who have a country to defend.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I would suggest that many members of the OO are fat old farts who enjoy a good day out,few cups of tea and the hip flask.

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

DoireNod

prinz wrote: »

Ones that pass off peacefully and no one gives a crap about? I know because I have friends in Donegal and there are parades up there every summer too. The only difference nobody takes any notice and they do their own thing for a few tunes and away they go again. No harm done.

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.

I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

DoireNod

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

I second this. It's well known that young loyalists with prejudiced views are and have been encouraged to become Orangemen. While being an Orangeman might not necessarily mean being troublesome, Orangemen can still be troublesome.

prinz

DoireNod wrote: »

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

No one to take any note of. They displayed their intelligence by referring to them as "Brits" that says enough to me, that whoever wrote that, they were probably kids with nothing better to do, or local uneducated wasters with nothing better to do.

Best thing to do with them is ignore the Orangemen and let them do whatever it is they want to do. They seem to thrive on confrontation and trouble north of the border. Take that away and before long the publicity dies away and they're back to being irrelevant old fellas who have nothing better in life to do.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

Yes quite sure there are, but if it were up to me I'd just ignore them.

Just the same as there are troublesome sectarian folk on the nationalist side too.Many linked to nationalist hoods.


Two sides to every story pal.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Yes quite sure there are, but if it were up to me I'd just ignore them.

Just the same as there are troublesome sectarian folk on the nationalist side too.Many linked to nationalist hoods.


Two sides to every story pal.

The topic is the orange order. There is only one story being discussed. I'm not interested in a tit for tat discussion with you.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

The topic is the orange order. There is only one story being discussed. I'm not interested in a tit for tat discussion with you.

Good !!that's settled then.

Last I heard I was discussing the OO

K-9

DoireNod wrote: »

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.

I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

Some SF head from Dublin had a sit down protest a few years ago at one near me. People still take the piss out of him!

Bottle_of_Smoke

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

No one's denying that, but is there any evidence or even suggestion there's significant links between loyalist hoods and republic based orangemen? And this is a thread about ROI based Orangemen

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

Hagar

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

There's absolute nothing wrong with a religious organization only admitting those of it's own belief but is the OO a religious organization in the true sense or an organization limited to elite membership excluding one religion specifically?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hagar wrote: »

There's absolute nothing wrong with a religious organization only admitting those of it's own belief but is the OO a religious organization in the true sense or an organization limited to elite membership excluding one religion specifically?

You must be a Protestant to join so would exclude all others.

dlofnep

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No one's denying that, but is there any evidence or even suggestion there's significant links between loyalist hoods and republic based orangemen? And this is a thread about ROI based Orangemen

The orange order is the orange order. Anywhere on this Island, they share the exact same views and adhere to the exact same principles. The only difference is, we won't tolerate the shíte that they pulled up in Garvaghy road so they won't attempt it.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

You're really stretching with that. Religion and cultural groups are two entirely different things. I don't see Catholic churches kicking people out of the Church if someone attended a Protestant funeral.

The OO is sectarian. Not only is their membership selective to one specific religion, but they also create an environment that forbids and punishes their members for attending other services.

Bottle_of_Smoke

dlofnep wrote: »

The orange order is the orange order. Anywhere on this Island, they share the exact same views and adhere to the exact same principles. The only difference is, we won't tolerate the shíte that they pulled up in Garvaghy road so they won't attempt it.

I don't think people join for the same sectarian reasons in the ROI. I don't think lodges in the ROI are a threat to anyone. It doesn't appear the marches in Donegal antagonise locals like in Drumcree/Ardoyne

You're really stretching with that. Religion and cultural groups are two entirely different things. I don't see Catholic churches kicking people out of the Church if someone attended a Protestant funeral.

The OO is sectarian. Not only is their membership selective to one specific religion, but they also create an environment that forbids and punishes their members for attending other services.

I see no problem with not admitting non-Protestants. And I don't see it as sectarian in the used sense of the word. However I'll concede on the forbidding members attend Catholic ceremonies. It may have made sense historically due to the origins of Protestantism but after thinking about your argument is something I agree is sectarian should be done away with now.

DoireNod

People also seem to forget the actual origins of the Orange Order. They were basically founded to counter the Irish nationalism espoused by the United Irishmen and the original Orange Order was made up mostly of the Peep O'Day boys, who conducted ethno-sectarian attacks on Catholics.

By definition they are sectarian. There's no escaping that reality.

IIMII

Fratton Fred

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You must be a Protestant to join so would exclude all others.

Does it only allow protestants to join, or does it just exclude Catholics?

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does it only allow protestants to join, or does it just exclude Catholics?

only protestants

prinz

Hagar wrote: »

There's absolute nothing wrong with a religious organization only admitting those of it's own belief but is the OO a religious organization in the true sense or an organization limited to elite membership excluding one religion specifically?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You must be a Protestant to join so would exclude all others.

It's a quasi-religious organisation dedicated to promoting and safeguarding the Protestant religion, ethic, culture and identity. As such they have every right to restrict membership, as there are many many many such organisations which restrict membership on religious grounds. That said the Orange Order has proven more than willing to accept converts etc..

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

It's a quasi-religious organisation dedicated to promoting and safeguarding the Protestant religion, ethic, culture and identity. As such they have every right to restrict membership, as there are many many many such organisations which restrict membership on religious grounds. That said the Orange Order has proven more than willing to accept converts etc..

And they are a nationalistic political organisation pledging 'to uphold the union', you forgot that bit.

If they left out the political bit, politics would be a much nicer place with religion.

rant_and_rave

Hagar wrote: »

Of course they should be allowed have their Lodges in the Republic. A lot of good men died winning freedom for this country and they won enough of it to share with everybody.

Rubbish. The Orange Order is the BNP at prayer.

And by the way WW1 was not about the freedom of small nations. The main protagonists were too busy expanding their empires to worry about that. It's a well recognized fact that if Germany has won WW1 or if there has been an honorable draw with no Versailles Treaty, the world would have been a much better place. No Hitler, no WW2, no Holocaust, no Iron Curtain.

It's wasn't worth it and that's the epitaph that we should inscribe on all those cenotaphs that litter the country. Most of the men whom the Orange Order like to commemorate were conscripted and forced over the top at the point of a gun. They must spin in their graves every Remembrance day.

rant_and_rave

prinz wrote: »

It's a quasi-religious organisation dedicated to promoting and safeguarding the Protestant religion, ethic, culture and identity.

And they are racist.
And they grant membership to members of terrorist organizations.
And they allow convicted murderers back into the ranks.

Bottle_of_Smoke

rant_and_rave wrote: »

And they are racist.
And they grant membership to members of terrorist organizations.
And they allow convicted murderers back into the ranks.

Members may well be racist but there's Orange lodges in Africa so its not an institutional thing. Can't disagree with the other two points.

K-9

rant_and_rave wrote: »

And they grant membership to members of terrorist organizations.
And they allow convicted murderers back into the ranks.

Probably do. Sure SF are the same then.

thelastditch

The bottom line is, if you don't like the rules just don't join. It's really simple.