Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2009-2011

Psychedelic

STIG83 wrote: »

What's people's problem with Pairc Ui Caoimh? it's alot better to get to Cork since Youghal bypass was built.

Dunno, seems like from reading some comments here Pairc Ui Caoimh is falling down. Think it's more of a case of people just preferring Semple though.

Semple is obviously a much better stadium/pitch and the layout of the town is better compared to Cork (no main square area like in Thurles), but it would be nice to play somewhere else for a change. I can't remember the last time we played there, must have been around 2006.

STIG83

Psychedelic wrote: »

Dunno, seems like from reading some comments here Pairc Ui Caoimh is falling down. Think it's more of a case of people just preferring Semple though.

Semple is obviously a much better stadium/pitch and the layout of the town is better compared to Cork (no main square area like in Thurles), but it would be nice to play somewhere else for a change. I can't remember the last time we played there, must have been around 2006.

Was it 04 in the Munster semi final? good day that was!!

Mountainlad

2006 against Tipp. Was there for the 21s game last year. The under stadium facilities are awful, the leg room between seats is very small, and there have been some serious trouble in terms of delays getting in!

KevIRL

STIG83 wrote: »

What's people's problem with Pairc Ui Caoimh? it's alot better to get to Cork since Youghal bypass was built.

Its a delapidated dump, needs to be completely rebuilt. Its also a fukker of walk down to it and also and most importantly imo the atmosphere in Thurles is second to none for Munster final day - this gets lost in a big city like Cork

KevIRL

Daysha wrote: »

Just updated the blog there with some thoughts on the game. Most of it is just a cross-post from what I said here on Sunday night but I've found some pretty interesting stats in the meantime.

Our Championship record under Davy against teams outside the 'big two' is currently at played 11, won 9, draw 2 and lost 0. Not only is that very encouraging the way they were won really says a lot about the team. Here's the list of wins and what the score was with 10 minutes to go.

2008 Offaly – up by 2
2008 Wexford – up by 2
2008 Tipperary – down by 2
2009 Limerick – up by 1
2009 Limerick (replay) – up by 2
2009 Galway – down by 3
2010 Clare – A/S
2010 Cork – down by 1
2010 Cork (replay) – A/S
2011 Limerick – A/S

We failed to lose a single one of those games, mostly because of one defining goal that turned the game on its head. The unfortunate thing is when we do lose, we lose heavily. That's why as long as we're not blown away in the 1st half of the final and we're still in with a shout as the game goes on, we'll be in with a great chance.

http://waterfordgaa.wordpress.com/

Nice one on pulling out these stats. The team do stick on it very well and have a never say die attitude, even 2 of the games not mentioned here Tipp - Munster final 2009 and KK All Ireland semi final 2009 they fought right up until the end.

Professey Chin

KevIRL wrote: »

Nice one on pulling out these stats. The team do stick on it very well and have a never say die attitude, even 2 of the games not mentioned here Tipp - Munster final 2009 and KK All Ireland semi final 2009 they fought right up until the end.

I still curse this game. They were there for the taking & Molumphy was cleaning up every bit of breaking ball. I could almost hear a collective facepalm around the stadium when he was taken off for Nagle.

deisedude

STIG83 wrote: »

What's people's problem with Pairc Ui Caoimh? it's alot better to get to Cork since Youghal bypass was built.

Well it might have something to do with the Cork county boards insistance that patrons in the stadium lose bloodflow to their legs:pac:

KevIRL

The Chin wrote: »

I still curse this game. They were there for the taking & Molumphy was cleaning up every bit of breaking ball. I could almost hear a collective facepalm around the stadium when he was taken off for Nagle.

Amen to what you are saying about Molumphy. I dunno if KK were there for the taking though, always felt that they had another gear if needed. That said we could have had a great chance to suckerpunch them at the end.

Cake Man

That was another "if only..." game. That shot Kelly doubled on with about 5 mins to go (think we were 5 points down at that stage IIRC) that forced a good save from PJ Ryan would have brought it back to 2 had it gone in and at the time we were winning everything. Really thought we could do it when Shane Walsh got that early goal but alas,it wasn't to be.

Professey Chin

The change sticks out more to me cause we were 2 points up and KK were getting nothing from midfield before it was made. Then they were coming out with the ball and putting it over the bar again.

STIG83

Dont be depressing me thinking about them kind of games we lost over the years.

Deise Tom

Jeddah wrote: »

I wonder if Tipp gave us € 80k would we play it in Thurles???

The six counties in Munster were told this year that they would play a munster final where they were told from now on and there would be no more playing home and away for financial gain after the farse that was last year.

Deise Tom

STIG83 wrote: »

More than likely it will be Waterford and Tipperary MF though.

Limerick will have a big say about that.

Clareman

Deise Tom wrote: »

Limerick will have a big say about that.

*Ahem*
There are 3 teams left in Munster now

Clare have as much chance of being in the MF though as Limerick

Deise Tom

johnfarmer wrote: »

All the talk is of our 3rd Munster senior final appearance in row but let's not forget that our minor hurlers are heading for there 3rd appearance in a row too. What's the latest from the minor camp ahead of the semi-final against Limerick Friday week?

Saturday.

Waterford have agreed to put the game back 24 hours as one of the Limerick players is doing an exam in the leaving that day.

STIG83

Deise Tom wrote: »

Limerick will have a big say about that.

I was talking about the Senior Munster Final Tom.

Deise Tom

PTH2009 wrote: »

Pairc Ui Chaoimh in running for decider

14 June 2011

Pairc Ui Chaoimh will host this year's Munster SHC final if Tipperary overcome Clare in Sunday's second semi-final at the Gaelic Grounds.

The All-Ireland champions are hot favourites to account for the Banner and set up a final showdown with Waterford on July 10. Pairc Ui Chaoimh was the venue for Waterford's famous Munster final victory over Tipperary in 2002, but when the sides last met in the decider two years ago, it was played in Thurles.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh last hosted a Munster senior hurling final in 2005, when Cork defeated Tipp by 1-21 to 1-16. Semple Stadium would be expected to host a Waterford-Clare final.

Thurles would be perfect venue if it was Waterford and Clare, but Munster Council could send Waterford to Limerick. They have done it before. Limerick will also be looking for the game as its a while since they staged it and their would be good money for their county board to be made from it if it was in Limerick.

Deise Tom

STIG83 wrote: »

Was it 04 in the Munster semi final? good day that was!!

They played in Cork in 06. Eoin Kelly ran right for Tipp in the first half, but in the second, Eoin Murphy had him in his pocket.

flahavaj

tomkelly99 wrote: »

I fired up the Datsun and went to the game yesterday. I thought it was very good. There was some super players on show. It was a pity Dan Shanahan wasn't fit, I think he'd have put the fear of God into the Limerick backs. I was surprised Clem Smith wasn't playing yesterday. One of the lads was saying he thinks Clem got injured at the Beijing Olympics there a few years back doing the shot pott and he never recovered afterwards. Davy was fierce giddy yesterday. He was like a child on Christmas morning with Tourettes that got a present he didn't like. That happened me once. I asked for a Playstation and I got a laminator instead. Paraic Fanning was in front of me at one stage and the language he used would make a nun vomit.
We played very well, We deserved the win, although Limerick deserved to win too. I was delighted for John Mullane. He's a great young player and was a vital cog in the wheel of DLS winning the minor hurling this year. He's gone very bald for a minor.
I can't believe Davy didn't pick Colm Breathnach of Rinn Ó gCuanach. He's only 34 and has already won a national trophy this year. He's a roving fullback who was Donegals top scorer from sideline cuts in the Micky Rackard Michael Lowry Meagher Cup. He made a lovely speech in Croker the day they won, although Davy and Paraic must have helped him write the speech because the F bombs he was dropping would make Snoop Dogg look like Bishop William Lee.
Rumour has it there is going to be a massive party in the Church of the Holy Family down the Folly if we bate Tipperary in the Munster final.Music will be provided by Chris Doran and Mattie Weldon. It's €10 in for kids and adults are free.

^^^^^

Greatest post ever. You're some hero boy.

carter10

Unreal amount of negativity about Sundays performance, it was never going to be anything other than a very close Munster Championship clash. This game was set up for Limerick, they were back on the road after a year of strife, had a good manager in place and were driven on by a very vociferous support. Waterford on the other hand had everything to lose, going out as favourites with 5 debutants on board playing a team that gave them plenty of trouble even when we had all our ‘marquee’ players to hand in previous years.

A lot of people giving management and the team stick over the performance but what about the supporters? We were well outnumbered in Thurles on Sunday and well bet in terms of voicing our support as well.
I was in the middle of the new stand and it struck me the difference in attitude between both sets of supporters. Most of the Limerick crowd were very animated throughout the game, our support only seemed to come to life after shane walsh’s goal in the second half- there followed a feeble water-ford water-ford which trailed off fairly quickly.

It seemed to me every score, every catch etc was more robustly cheered by the Limerick fans and this difference was mirrored on the pitch as well. Limerick up for giving it a right go..waterford trying to play like they were the better team, in short LK had more hunger and fight in them.
Usually when 2 teams are fairly evenly matched and often when they’re not the team with the hunger will win out. This didn’t happen on Sunday. It didn’t happen because the players stuck to their task and took the chance when it came at the death.
Tipperary faced Cork in similar circumstances last year and they were well beaten, they didn’t even come close to pulling it out of the fire and we all know what they went on to do.
This time last year people were slating Tipp, just a few weeks ago people were predicting the demise of Kilkenny.
Leaving aside the top 2, every game we’ve played against the second tier teams over the last year has been extremely close: Cork MF late penalty to draw, MF replay – extra time. League beat Cork and Galway by a point and draw with Dublin. Limerick are in that bracket and on Sunday they were as i said well up for it. The thing is we won all those games – bar Dublin- and we won them while in transition.
Look at the players we’ve lost over the last 2 years. On every line except half back we had a player making his debut on Sunday, we also lost our free taker on the day, Foley was also a loss in general play, he was probably our most consistent player during the league and was starting to become a very important part of the team.
Offaly, Clare and Wexford all won All Irelands in the 90s but could not sustain that level of performance when those teams broke up, we are transitioning to our third team ‘ at the top table’ and all though we haven’t won the AI we have been more competitive than those 3 over a longer period. This team with the new faces in the O Mahoneys, O Sullivans, Fives and soon to be joined by O Halloran Dillon et al gives me hope that we will remain to be very competitive. We may not have a Noel McGrath or a Downes coming along but we’ve got a fair amount of talent none the less. If we keep knocking them and the management failure will become a self fulfilling prophesy.

I am delighted with the result on Sunday, we will be written off for the Munster Final and go in the way we like- as underdogs. I live in Tipp, theyre being nice! This is music to my ears, long gone are the days when they’d be giving out about fist pumping or badge kissing, you knew they were worried back then. Now theyre full of platitudes like “ye’ll improve from that” (but not enough to trouble us) We know what can happen Tipp when they think they only have to turn up. Theyre not expecting much trouble from Clare either.
So what we need on Munster Final day is: Beachballs on the terrace, Mullane with the eyes popping out of his head shoving the sliotar into a defenders face after winning a free, supporters going nuts and being told sit down from behind, belting out water-ford water-ford with meaning, howling disapproval at every decision the ref makes against us, we should be supporting our team not picking over the negatives all the time.
Rant over

calvin_zola

carter10 wrote: »

Unreal amount of negativity about Sundays performance, it was never going to be anything other than a very close Munster Championship clash. This game was set up for Limerick, they were back on the road after a year of strife, had a good manager in place and were driven on by a very vociferous support. Waterford on the other hand had everything to lose, going out as favourites with 5 debutants on board playing a team that gave them plenty of trouble even when we had all our ‘marquee’ players to hand in previous years.

A lot of people giving management and the team stick over the performance but what about the supporters? We were well outnumbered in Thurles on Sunday and well bet in terms of voicing our support as well.
I was in the middle of the new stand and it struck me the difference in attitude between both sets of supporters. Most of the Limerick crowd were very animated throughout the game, our support only seemed to come to life after shane walsh’s goal in the second half- there followed a feeble water-ford water-ford which trailed off fairly quickly.

It seemed to me every score, every catch etc was more robustly cheered by the Limerick fans and this difference was mirrored on the pitch as well. Limerick up for giving it a right go..waterford trying to play like they were the better team, in short LK had more hunger and fight in them.
Usually when 2 teams are fairly evenly matched and often when they’re not the team with the hunger will win out. This didn’t happen on Sunday. It didn’t happen because the players stuck to their task and took the chance when it came at the death.
Tipperary faced Cork in similar circumstances last year and they were well beaten, they didn’t even come close to pulling it out of the fire and we all know what they went on to do.
This time last year people were slating Tipp, just a few weeks ago people were predicting the demise of Kilkenny.
Leaving aside the top 2, every game we’ve played against the second tier teams over the last year has been extremely close: Cork MF late penalty to draw, MF replay – extra time. League beat Cork and Galway by a point and draw with Dublin. Limerick are in that bracket and on Sunday they were as i said well up for it. The thing is we won all those games – bar Dublin- and we won them while in transition.
Look at the players we’ve lost over the last 2 years. On every line except half back we had a player making his debut on Sunday, we also lost our free taker on the day, Foley was also a loss in general play, he was probably our most consistent player during the league and was starting to become a very important part of the team.
Offaly, Clare and Wexford all won All Irelands in the 90s but could not sustain that level of performance when those teams broke up, we are transitioning to our third team ‘ at the top table’ and all though we haven’t won the AI we have been more competitive than those 3 over a longer period. This team with the new faces in the O Mahoneys, O Sullivans, Fives and soon to be joined by O Halloran Dillon et al gives me hope that we will remain to be very competitive. We may not have a Noel McGrath or a Downes coming along but we’ve got a fair amount of talent none the less. If we keep knocking them and the management failure will become a self fulfilling prophesy.

I am delighted with the result on Sunday, we will be written off for the Munster Final and go in the way we like- as underdogs. I live in Tipp, theyre being nice! This is music to my ears, long gone are the days when they’d be giving out about fist pumping or badge kissing, you knew they were worried back then. Now theyre full of platitudes like “ye’ll improve from that” (but not enough to trouble us) We know what can happen Tipp when they think they only have to turn up. Theyre not expecting much trouble from Clare either.
So what we need on Munster Final day is: Beachballs on the terrace, Mullane with the eyes popping out of his head shoving the sliotar into a defenders face after winning a free, supporters going nuts and being told sit down from behind, belting out water-ford water-ford with meaning, howling disapproval at every decision the ref makes against us, we should be supporting our team not picking over the negatives all the time.
Rant over

excellent! and we have been in transition past two years with the old on the way out making way for the new and we have remained competitive... we should be thankful we haven't gone the way offaly and wexford went for a few years!

deisebhoy17

I'm going to backtrack on my previous comments, the more I think of it the more I realise we have to put Brick Walsh full back. If were ever to go anywhere we need to sort this problem out for once and for all its been going on with years and been out achilles heel time and time again. I know your losing a top quality centre back but ultimately the full back position is more important imo or thats how it seems for us anyway. You could put Kevin Moran centre back its his best position imo anyway and weve seen for DLS and at underage level for Waterford how he thrives in the role. One of the reasons Waterford dint win an all-Ireland over the past 15 years is the full back problem. Weve never had a top quality commanding presence on the edge of the square like all other counties appear to have. Brick Walsh has shown he can do it there and we need to seriously consider that considering other players can play centre back. Only a certain type of player can play full back. How long more do we have to sit in the stands and watch it all going pear shaped on the edge of our own square with our heads in our hands. Its been going on for as long as I can care to remember. Id rather do something about it now than grow to accept it. PS I dont buy into the Liam Lawlor argument agreed he did ok against Clare and Cork last year but bein honest he was very shaky. He was taken off against Cork as he was on a yellow and close to a second one and was eventually roasted against Tipp in the all-Ireland semi. People argue it wasnt his fault but ultimately he wasnt commanding enough and very nervous under the high ball. (sorry mountainlad)

egpower

premierstone wrote: »

The order of preference should be Lawlor, Brick, play with 14, Hutchinson.

I think Lawlor is a better bet than Hutchy but in fairness I think people are bipolar in their assessment of Hutchy. Before last Sunday everyone who had seen him play including me would have had no fears for him. It would be an understatement to say we were all wrong - BUT - Downes is a freak show ! He is unmarkable (unless you are Brick who is also incredibly talented & experienced.) Now most people are saying that Crusty the Clown would be a better full back that Hutchy. The point I am making is that I think Paul Curran, Eoin Cadogan, Sean Cullinane (who seems to get better each year now) would all have struggled against the gander-like Downes with a 40m squared paddock to roam about in. Question I would ask is can he learn from last Sunday ? Can Davy help him to be a better defender ? Let's just keep a bit of balance - that's all.

Professey Chin

egpower wrote: »

I think Lawlor is a better bet than Hutchy but in fairness I think people are bipolar in their assessment of Hutchy. Before last Sunday everyone who had seen him play including me would have had no fears for him. It would be an understatement to say we were all wrong - BUT - Downes is a freak show ! He is unmarkable (unless you are Brick who is also incredibly talented & experienced.) Now most people are saying that Crusty the Clown would be a better full back that Hutchy. The point I am making is that I think Paul Curran, Eoin Cadogan, Sean Cullinane (who seems to get better each year now) would all have struggled against the gander-like Downes with a 40m squared paddorck to roam about in. Question I would ask is can he learn from last Sunday ? Can Davy help him to be a better defender ? Let's just keep a bit of balance - that's all.

He didnt really do much wrong on Sunday until the goal. He made the mistake of trying to get in front of Downes which basically gifted Limericks it. Of course instead of letting him learn from that mistake(which I bet he wouldnt have made again) he was pulled out to the wing and knew he was gonna be taken off so his head dropped and his play went to sh!t. Fives made the same mistake for their 3rd goal and Brick nearly made the same mistake aswell but kept his footing. I think we've destroyed him as our FB for a while by not letting him learn & continue on.

premierstone

egpower wrote: »

BUT - Downes is a freak show ! He is unmarkable.

While I may be guilty of a knee-jerk reaction to how bad Hutchinson is as an inter county FB, I think you are definitely guilty of the same in blowing up Downes on the back of one performance against a questionable FB who was exposed by hes managers lack of tactical nous.

Downes has all the looks of being a class act but its far too early to be using terms such as unmarkable, Joe Canning, Lar Corbett, Henry Shefflin will all need to be seen off if Waterford are to win an AI and tbh if Hutchinson couldnt handle a rookie to whom no ball was sent into for 40mins then he cant possibly start FB again, unless Waterford deploy a tactic similar to what KK did for years and have the CB (Brick) play very deep kind of as an auxilary FB and all Hutchinson to merely man the square and hold hes ground, Its what Cody did with Hickey and worked a treat.

hardybuck

We must also remember that Brick has been destroyed at centre back in the last two games against Tipp in the Championship. He is far too loose for Noel McGrath.

As our likely opponents in the final we've got to take this into account also.

premierstone

hardybuck wrote: »

We must also remember that Brick has been destroyed at centre back in the last two games against Tipp in the Championship. He is far too loose for Noel McGrath.

As our likely opponents in the final we've got to take this into account also.

Its not that he is too loose per say its just that Noel does not play like a conventional centre forward, he drifts away from the centre and looks for space, its the movement of the Tipp forwards when they dont have the ball that makes it difficult, Bonner Maher ids the only one of the 6 that doesnt switch, and IF and its a big if Tipp are in the MF I would expect Seamie Callinan to spend more time on the forty than Noel.

Deise Tom

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

I'm going to backtrack on my previous comments, the more I think of it the more I realise we have to put Brick Walsh full back. If were ever to go anywhere we need to sort this problem out for once and for all its been going on with years and been out achilles heel time and time again. I know your losing a top quality centre back but ultimately the full back position is more important imo or thats how it seems for us anyway. You could put Kevin Moran centre back its his best position imo anyway and weve seen for DLS and at underage level for Waterford how he thrives in the role. One of the reasons Waterford dint win an all-Ireland over the past 15 years is the full back problem. Weve never had a top quality commanding presence on the edge of the square like all other counties appear to have. Brick Walsh has shown he can do it there and we need to seriously consider that considering other players can play centre back. Only a certain type of player can play full back. How long more do we have to sit in the stands and watch it all going pear shaped on the edge of our own square with our heads in our hands. Its been going on for as long as I can care to remember. Id rather do something about it now than grow to accept it. PS I dont buy into the Liam Lawlor argument agreed he did ok against Clare and Cork last year but bein honest he was very shaky. He was taken off against Cork as he was on a yellow and close to a second one and was eventually roasted against Tipp in the all-Ireland semi. People argue it wasnt his fault but ultimately he wasnt commanding enough and very nervous under the high ball. (sorry mountainlad)

If The BRick is put back into full back and it works, will it mean that we will have people putting Davy on an even higher pedistal and saying how great he is, how brave he is, and how clever he was to make such a move instead of asking why he did not do it since 2008 when he came in first and it quickly appeared that Ken McGrath was not the answer there either at full back, even though early on playing against poor enough teams that it might have been a good call to switch him back. A good or even a very good centre back does not mean that mean you will be good at Full Back. Ken has been tried there, Dec Pender is a decent half back player but never set the world alight in the full back line and when justin was in charge he moved Fergal back there and while he was ok, he was still not the answers to our problems.

Can someone please clone a young Sean Cullinane and it might solve the problem.

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

Its not that he is too loose per say its just that Noel does not play like a conventional centre forward, he drifts away from the centre and looks for space, its the movement of the Tipp forwards when they dont have the ball that makes it difficult, Bonner Maher ids the only one of the 6 that doesnt switch, and IF and its a big if Tipp are in the MF I would expect Seamie Callinan to spend more time on the forty than Noel.

This is exactly why Brick can't drop deep. If the centre forward scores 10 points from play what hope have we? Same thing happened in the league as it did in August. I know traditionally the centre back holds the centre and Brick is excellent at this, but he needs to track Noel McGrath when we play Tipp (which definetly happen at some stage this year if we're going to win an all-ireland). I know, this will leave the full backline more exposed, but it all goes back to my point about the delivery into the full forward line. If we don't hand the ball back to Tipp, and get good ball to our forward we could beat them. That to me is the only way to play it, unless Fitzgerald conjures up a bit of tactical genius beyond what anyone seems capable of!

As for Liam Lawlor, I'm not saying he's god, but he's solid. Deserves a second chances given he aquitted himself well on three of four occasions last year. I agree with premierstone about Downes, he's got great potential but we made it easy for him in that second half. And to say Hutchison did nothing wrong til then...he had nothing to do full stop. A lot of people wrote off Aisake last year (and I'd agree that his skill levels were poor) but he was still a big threat physically, with that height and strength from playing aussie rules. He destroyed both Tipp backs, and ok it wasn't very hard given the supply line was so direct because nobody picked up Gardiner, and he also scored a goal while Liam Lawlor wasn't on the pitch. So maybe Liam might have been borderline getting sent off, we might aswell having been playing with 14 as bringing on Nagle and putting Prendergast full back. If it happens again, then you switch Brick full back, put Moran centre back and bring on Mahony or Ringo, whichever is on the bench. And teams won't be able to change their tactics after 60 minutes with thousands of voices roaring.

By the way, no need to apologise! I don't want anyone pretending to agree with me if they don't.

Mountainlad

Deise Tom wrote: »

If The BRick is put back into full back and it works, will it mean that we will have people putting Davy on an even higher pedistal and saying how great he is, how brave he is, and how clever he was to make such a move instead of asking why he did not do it since 2008 when he came in first and it quickly appeared that Ken McGrath was not the answer there either at full back, even though early on playing against poor enough teams that it might have been a good call to switch him back. A good or even a very good centre back does not mean that mean you will be good at Full Back. Ken has been tried there, Dec Pender is a decent half back player but never set the world alight in the full back line and when justin was in charge he moved Fergal back there and while he was ok, he was still not the answers to our problems.

Can someone please clone a young Sean Cullinane and it might solve the problem.

If it meant we won the all-ireland, I would personally put him on the biggest pedastal I could find and worship him like a god!

flahavaj

Deise Tom wrote: »

If The BRick is put back into full back and it works, will it mean that we will have people putting Davy on an even higher pedistal and saying how great he is, how brave he is, and how clever he was to make such a move instead of asking why he did not do it since 2008 when he came in first and it quickly appeared that Ken McGrath was not the answer there either at full back, even though early on playing against poor enough teams that it might have been a good call to switch him back. A good or even a very good centre back does not mean that mean you will be good at Full Back. Ken has been tried there, Dec Pender is a decent half back player but never set the world alight in the full back line and when justin was in charge he moved Fergal back there and while he was ok, he was still not the answers to our problems.

Can someone please clone a young Sean Cullinane and it might solve the problem.

Is it possible for you to discuss anything to do with Waterford hurling without you making it about Davy Fitz, Tom?

We get it, you don't rate the man (neither do I in certain aspects of his job), but you don't need to keep beating that particular drum every time anything to so with the team is discussed do you?

carter10

flahavaj wrote: »

Is it possible for you to discuss anything to do with Waterford hurling without you making it about Davy Fitz, Tom?

We get it, you don't rate the man (neither do I in certain aspects of his job), but you don't need to keep beating that particular drum every time anything to so with the team is discussed do you?

Agreed, its become tiresome at this stage.

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

Mountainlad

carter10 wrote: »

Agreed, its become tiresome at this stage.

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

I think overall it would be detrimental to the team.

premierstone

carter10 wrote: »

On the Brick thing I'd be in favour of him moving back to full back if it meant the difference between conceding 1 instead of 3 goals per game. Moran always plays his best hurling at CB and id have no worries about him there.

I dont think its as simplistic as that tbh, and while Moran might be a reasonably competent CB Brick is arguably and IMO is the best CB in the country, Waterford already have a half forward line that cant win primary posession so to start weakening your halfback line aswell, will mean they will struggle to win any puckouts from either end.

Also it seems to be taken for granted that Brick will be as acomplished a FB, its a very specialist position and I would'nt be basing my opinion on the few minutes against Limerick as I said in an ealier post if you are to win an AI teh FB will come up against at least two of Shefflin, Corbett and Canning, then guys are capable of scoring 3 goals off anyone, even Brick im afraid.

egpower

premierstone wrote: »

While I may be guilty of a knee-jerk reaction to how bad Hutchinson is as an inter county FB, I think you are definitely guilty of the same in blowing up Downes on the back of one performance against a questionable FB who was exposed by hes managers lack of tactical nous.

I suppose I know Downes from his club exploits and I know how highly he is rated. I was fearful at half time precisely because he had got no ball and I knew they would fix that at half time.

Also, he smashed a similar game-turning goal against Clare in Ennis - so that's 2 exhibitions of what he can do. One more and I am calling him a freak show !

carter10

premierstone wrote: »

I dont think its as simplistic as that tbh, and while Moran might be a reasonably competent CB Brick is arguably and IMO is the best CB in the country, Waterford already have a half forward line that cant win primary posession so to start weakening your halfback line aswell, will mean they will struggle to win any puckouts from either end.

Also it seems to be taken for granted that Brick will be as acomplished a FB, its a very specialist position and I would'nt be basing my opinion on the few minutes against Limerick as I said in an ealier post if you are to win an AI teh FB will come up against at least two of Shefflin, Corbett and Canning, then guys are capable of scoring 3 goals off anyone, even Brick im afraid.

Obviously the ideal situation would be to have both in the HB line but we have a glaring hole at FB that has to be filled, ,other teams are rightly going for our weak spot and I think its worth at least trying brick there as I think he's our best chance of solving the problem. I could be wrong and i often am but thats my 2cents on the thing.

johnfarmer

I think that if we had another corner back (a fit Eoin Murphy would do) then the defense problem would be resolved. It would allow us to move Fives out to his best position. We'd just make a few adjustments and have a ferocious back-line:
2. Eoin Murphy 3. Brick Walsh 4. Noel Connors
5. Tony Browne 6. Kevin Moran 7. Darrah Fives

This would also be gearing us up for the future as I can see a new back-line looking like this in 2012/2013
2. Jamie Barron 3. Brick Walsh 4. Noel Connors
5. Philip Mahony 6. Kevin Moran 7. Darrah Fives

If that doesn't look mighty to ye then ye are all blind men.

Deise Tom

Can any of the lads that do reports on the various blogs, post a link to a report on the Waterford and Limerick game that ended in a draw in the 2009 championship.

Thanks.

Fireball07

egpower wrote: »

I suppose I know Downes from his club exploits and I know how highly he is rated. I was fearful at half time precisely because he had got no ball and I knew they would fix that at half time.

Also, he smashed a similar game-turning goal against Clare in Ennis - so that's 2 exhibitions of what he can do. One more and I am calling him a freak show !

You could be right, I think he's a genius. And I've never seen him play club, and never heard him as highly rated as Hannon but he's top class. It wasn't just the goal against Clare...every time he got the ball he tortured the defence.

Pity he didn't get more ball against Waterford but the fact that Brick actually got the ball off him once or twice made me disappointed But just because Downes scored a goal off him doesn't mean Hutchison is a bad player. He did slip, didn't he? Maybe a bit unlucky...and he might be a good man marker just for the fact that Downes is quite fast. Canning and Shefflin aren't that quick...more talented players, possibly but maybe Hutchison would be better suited to marking them?? I've never seen him play apart from the weekend but it wouldn't be unheard of.

John Mullane scored 2-2 off Tom Condon but I still think he's one of our best defenders, certainly wouldn't drop him.

detective

Especially in the conditions on Sunday I think yer being too critical of Hutchinson lads. Amazing to think people were only talking up Hannon and not downes going into game. Can't wait to see them play together. Just think it's great to see great new talent coming through from Waterford and Limerick. Maybe Hutchinson can redeem himself against Limerick in the semi finals of the AI lmao I wish!!!!

Mountainlad

See the reason why people are being critical of Hutchison is he's been around for ages, like he's about 26 or 27 I think so the fact that he even got into this year was a bit of a suprise!

hardybuck

Sure isn't Lawlor the same age, and been on the panel for about 8 years!? If he isn't going to do it now when is he?

premierstone

carter10 wrote: »

Obviously the ideal situation would be to have both in the HB line but we have a glaring hole at FB that has to be filled, ,other teams are rightly going for our weak spot and I think its worth at least trying brick there as I think he's our best chance of solving the problem. I could be wrong and i often am but thats my 2cents on the thing.

Yes you are right it is worth trying Brick FB, but alas thats what the league was for, a munster final is no time for such radical experiments, the dogs in the street new it was the weak point of the team, Donal O'Grady certainly knew it, but yet Davy sat on he's hands for the entire league and for over 50 mins of the game on Sunday, now he is facing into a munster final with no idea who he is going to play FB, and whoever he picks will be either facing Lar Corbett of Darach Honan, scary stuff lads!

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Sure isn't Lawlor the same age, and been on the panel for about 8 years!? If he isn't going to do it now when is he?

I was just giving the reason people are being critical. No need to jump down my throat there. I don't know an awful lot about Hutchisons injury problems. Liam Lawlor has done his cruciate twice. He'd probably have been on the team as a wing back if he hadn't. Plus, I thought he did well last year. He seems to be getting the blame here for one match, which I thought there were quite a lot of problems, a lot of which rested on Davy's shoulders in my view.

hardybuck

Didn't mean to come across as hostile, and I'm in no way a huge Wayne Hutchinson fan.

In regard to Lawlor though, few counties would have a lad in a panel that long and still be trying to find places he can play. He isn't getting any younger, and he has been suffering serious injuries since his late teens/early 20's. Nothing against the lad, he put in a lot of effort with Waterford teams over the years, particularly when flying back from Scotland to play with the footballers.

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

noiniho

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

Limerick withdrew their two corner forwards and first hutchinson then fives had the whole full back line to cover, god with that space no full back would survive, Donal O Grady tried the tactic... it worked (these clever plans normally only work once), the waterford line responded by switching the full backand nothing else, the problem of all that space to cover was still there as both cornerbacks had followed their men out the field. End result? Limerick get another goal from the same ploy..... disaster.

One corner back to follow hi man maybe, but the other cornerback should have stayed back and played like a sweeper, as limericks tactic was to play ball into Kevin Downes, this 'spare' corner back would have picked up alot of this ball and then Limerick would have to have pushed a corner forward back into the forward line. potentially saving the concession of those two goals.

you may say the 'free' corner forward out in the middle of the field could have caused havoc, but it wouldnt have resulted in the loss of six points in my opinion. if he is causing real havoc then bring out one of your own corner forwards to match him.

like bringing out your two corner backs was just crazy, it was playing to the beat of Limericks tune (for most of the second half) I couldnt believe what i was watching.

think of the first goal, Wayne hutchinson had to cover all the way over to our left corner, with acres of space in front of him, against a pacier player, what chance did he have?

I think the waterford line got shown up big time.

premierstone

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm honestly baffled with the lack of full backs in Waterford. 15 years and or more without anyone of good quality. Other counties seem to have a constant supply - is it genetics or is it coaching?

Dont know about that - Galway haven't had one since Noel Lane, Noel Hickey looks well past it to me and KK are really strugling to replace him, Eoin Cadogan is limited in my opinion, he's a spoiler at best but will get exposed, if Paul Curran was injured in the morning Tipp would be in serious trouble, its a problem for every team its such a specialised position and the profile of top intercounty FF's has changed so much you need to be able to mark Big Target men ala Joe Canning, Kevin Downes etc. but also be able to handle the speed and movement of a Lar Corbett or the guile of a Henry Shefflin.

With regards the training thing, I guess if you think about it any player that would tick all the boxes I have mentioned there would not end up playing FB because they would have always been too good at club level and underage to be 'sacrificed' at FB. The majority would end up in the half back line.

premierstone

noiniho wrote: »

Limerick withdrew their two corner forwards and first hutchinson then fives had the whole full back line to cover, god with that space no full back would survive, Donal O Grady tried the tactic... it worked (these clever plans normally only work once), the waterford line responded by switching the full backand nothing else, the problem of all that space to cover was still there as both cornerbacks had followed their men out the field. End result? Limerick get another goal from the same ploy..... disaster.

One corner back to follow hi man maybe, but the other cornerback should have stayed back and played like a sweeper, as limericks tactic was to play ball into Kevin Downes, this 'spare' corner back would have picked up alot of this ball and then Limerick would have to have pushed a corner forward back into the forward line. potentially saving the concession of those two goals.

you may say the 'free' corner forward out in the middle of the field could have caused havoc, but it wouldnt have resulted in the loss of six points in my opinion. if he is causing real havoc then bring out one of your own corner forwards to match him.

like bringing out your two corner backs was just crazy, it was playing to the beat of Limericks tune (for most of the second half) I couldnt believe what i was watching.

think of the first goal, Wayne hutchinson had to cover all the way over to our left corner, with acres of space in front of him, against a pacier player, what chance did he have?

I think the waterford line got shown up big time.

You're absolutely spot on, and tbf its not the first time the line or more specifically Davy have been exposed tactically, its a bit of a re-acurring theme.

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

I was just giving the reason people are being critical. No need to jump down my throat there. I don't know an awful lot about Hutchisons injury problems. Liam Lawlor has done his cruciate twice. He'd probably have been on the team as a wing back if he hadn't. Plus, I thought he did well last year. He seems to be getting the blame here for one match, which I thought there were quite a lot of problems, a lot of which rested on Davy's shoulders in my view.

Look I appreciate your a big Lawlor fan and judging by your name your possibly from the same neck of the woods/club as him so I can understand you backing him. But to say that but for injuries hed be a regular at wing back for Waterford is wide of the mark. Hes had loads of chances (im not saying he wont get anymore) and tbh anytime Ive seen him he struggled for us. Last year people say he did well against Clare and the 2 games against Cork but I think he was limited. I cant recall him ever actually fielding a high ball or actually picking the ball up and making huge clearances down the field like you'd expect a top quality fullback to do. The tactic against Aisaki for the 2 games was just to pull, tear and drag at him, get in his face, however he was on the brink of a red card and eventually had to be taken off. which obviously is what he was told to do but underlines the lack of confidence that Davy & his selectors had in him to go toe to toe with his direct marker. Tactic failed against Lar Corbett in the all-Ireland semi and while no one is blaming Lawlor for that defeat he was amongst many who was out of his depth that day. I think he was taken off again that day. Your regular full back should not be one of the first fellahs to be hauled off in every game. Admittedly a lot to do with the tactics used but the big players always step up no matter what.

Deise Hurler

Have played full back many a times. The position is not about fancy hurling, more about good communicating and operating as a line. By that I mean the corner backs and the full back really need to work together. If the full back goes out to tackle an incoming player the corner backs must know instinctively what to do, which should be dropping into the full back position. The full back needs to be the leader of the line but to do this he must be confident in his position. Unfortunately we have chopped and changed our full back all year and neither lawlor or hutchinson have been given the chance to settle into the position. Even before the limerick match, we were all unsure as to which of the two would be selected. At the start of the year a full back should have been selected and the league should have been used to allow that player make the position his own.

If a full back makes a mistake their should be no need to haul them off. On sunday Hutchinson wasn't doing too bad up until the goal. He was exposed for one goal and straight away he was switched. You could see straight away that his head dropped once the switch was made and it was only a matter of time before he was going to be taken off.

In my opinion, Shane Fives is the best full back we have in Waterford. I am surprised he is not already being recognised as one of our star players as a few years ago if asked to name a young player who was going to make it with our seniors, his name would have been the first I would have said. Only a year and a half ago he was named as full back on the fitzgibbon cup team of the year, but unfortunately he has been given limited game time with Waterford and when selected he is usually played at wing back.

Anyway, whoever is selected at 3 from now on needs to be given time to make the position their own or we will still be talking in ten years time about how Waterford could have won an All Ireland if Sean Cullinane was still around.