ESB HALO

berber

Has anyone come across ESB's HALO service? They're offering a "free independent home energy survey" to homeowners. Seems like this is competition for BER.

sinnerboy

Well even before the crash I saw 2 kinds of punter for BER

1. doesn't give a damn about the rating - just wants cert as cheap as possible and resenting paying anything for it whatsoever

2. those interested in pre cert survey - some advice on upgrades - then cert
This ESB initiative will eat into punter client base 2 .....

C******n saw many coming didn't they ?

DOCARCH

sinnerboy wrote: »

C******n

Took me a minute or two......:D They're still constantly calling me to take other courses.......g'luck!

SilverBER

I was offered an electric ligting design course. I wonder if I could be a lighting design consultant in 2 days. I can't even put a plug on my hoover but what the hey!

SilverBER

They have an ad in this mornings paper advising anyone who has been contacted by FAS to get in touch as they may qualify for a grant. They are most definitely the worst kind of leeches.

d'Oracle

I was at a meeting which was attended by members of the ESB management who are involved in this.

They gave a presentation on this.

This is most defiantly NOT competition for BER's.
ESB halo is an energy survey followed by recommendations.
It will not supply a BER so people looking to sell or rent will still need a BER.

What it will do is cover the most under utilised and makeshift part of the BER process. It will be of some competition to Assessors who supply a proper report (as opposed to the box ticking exercise supplied by SEI).

But it remains to be seen what format they will use to show the benefits.

Personally, I think BER is being poorly utilised as a tool for creating energy awareness. I see this as a good thing.

SilverBER

d'Oracle wrote: »

I was at a meeting which was attended by members of the ESB management who are involved in this.

They gave a presentation on this.

This is most defiantly NOT competition for BER's.
ESB halo is an energy survey followed by recommendations.
It will not supply a BER so people looking to sell or rent will still need a BER.

What it will do is cover the most under utilised and makeshift part of the BER process. It will be of some competition to Assessors who supply a proper report (as opposed to the box ticking exercise supplied by SEI).

But it remains to be seen what format they will use to show the benefits.

Personally, I think BER is being poorly utilised as a tool for creating energy awareness. I see this as a good thing.

ESB are also putting together a home insulation upgrade system based on the SEI HES scheme with the addition of replacement windows. I dont know the whys and wherefores of it but I was approached to sign up to the list of contractors. I refused the offer. Its called the ESB Energy Services Home Energy Efficiency Program. It is dependent on the SEI HES scheme grants except for the windows ( I dont know where the windows are coming from or who is paying for them) but if its done in any way like the HES scheme it will be a complete waste of time.

sinnerboy

I spoke with the ESB about this . Typical Irish scheme - not fully fleshed out .

They may of may not use BER assessors but " a simplified DEAP" process will be used . They will "encourage" punters towards thye SEI HES scheme and expact "expert" input from the SEI registered contractors

They are in fact eating into the "smart" use of DEAP - i.e. to guide towards improving a houses energy performance .

The BER assessor will be left with the dont-give-a damn-just-want-the-cert-punter

d'Oracle

My impression was that they would be footing a lot of money for HEEP.
I'm assuming that they will stump for the windows....

DEAP is not the only tool available to assess a house, but it is the tool of choice under EPBD. Im curious to know if they will supply BER's at the end or just leave that to the homeowner. As for it not being properly fleshed out, its a fair long way further on from when I first heard about it.

SilverBER, do you mean to say that HES is a waste of time, or just that operating their programme like HES would be a waste of time?

SilverBER

d'Oracle wrote: »

SilverBER, do you mean to say that HES is a waste of time, or just that operating their programme like HES would be a waste of time?

I think the ESB would have a better grasp of energy conservancy than SEI so I think the HEEP system might have been a worthwhile initiative if they had set their own system up instead of piggybacking on the HES scheme. They are approaching the same contractors that are registered with SEI HES where the only criteria is that you have to be tax compliant and carry insurance to supply and fit attic insulation, internal drylining, boiler upgrades and heating controls. You need to have attended a 3 day course for external wall insulation (fee involved of course) and hold a piece of paper saying you did so in order to be registered for external insulation. Nowhere in the requirement does it state that you have to have any knowledge or training in construction techniques or systems. Anyway, I think the grant money will be stopped soon if the McCarthy report has anything to do with it.

d'Oracle

SilverBER wrote: »

I think the ESB would have a better grasp of energy conservancy than SEI so I think the HEEP system might have been a worthwhile initiative if they had set their own system up instead of piggybacking on the HES scheme. They are approaching the same contractors that are registered with SEI HES where the only criteria is that you have to be tax compliant and carry insurance to supply and fit attic insulation, internal drylining, boiler upgrades and heating controls. You need to have attended a 3 day course for external wall insulation (fee involved of course) and hold a piece of paper saying you did so in order to be registered for external insulation. Nowhere in the requirement does it state that you have to have any knowledge or training in construction techniques or systems. Anyway, I think the grant money will be stopped soon if the McCarthy report has anything to do with it.

I think you need to have a little more faith.
In fairness when you go to an external insulation course, you learn a specific system.

Also, ESB have selected contractors from SEI's list with quality standards of their own. SEI's shortcomings are fairly obvious for the entire industry to see.
In fairness, just cos cowboys exist, doesnt mean there are no good tradesmen. As you know, a contractor needs to be registered with SEI to avail of HES, so the good lads (who exist, I have met them I assume you may have met one or two yourself) will be registered.

Everybody is sick of SEI's bungling, but the work still needs doing.

McCarthy is a long way off and nobody said that the cut in funding will go straight from HES.

SilverBER

d'Oracle wrote: »

I think you need to have a little more faith.
In fairness when you go to an external insulation course, you learn a specific system.

Also, ESB have selected contractors from SEI's list with quality standards of their own. SEI's shortcomings are fairly obvious for the entire industry to see.
In fairness, just cos cowboys exist, doesnt mean there are no good tradesmen. As you know, a contractor needs to be registered with SEI to avail of HES, so the good lads (who exist, I have met them I assume you may have met one or two yourself) will be registered.

Everybody is sick of SEI's bungling, but the work still needs doing.

McCarthy is a long way off and nobody said that the cut in funding will go straight from HES.

Yes, of course I know some top contractors who use qualified tradesmen and are fully up to speed on intallation techniques, good practice and building regs. Unfortunately, none of them are registered with SEI HES. I didnt set out to paint this with such a large brush and I can see now that I did. However, you would not believe how many SEI registered contractors (I am not saying them all) who dont know how to calculate the thickness of insulation required to bring the walls up to 0.27. They use the biggest that can be bought in order to cover themselves, thereby costing the client more money than is necessary. I spoke to a plumbing contractor a few weeks ago who is registered with SEI for the heating stuff and the internal and attic insulation work. He was doing a job on a top floor apartment that was built in the 1960s and which has a flat roof. By his reckoning the addition of a 35mm insulated board to the existing ceiling would make the roof uvalue compliant with the regs. This guy is a top notch PLUMBER, one of the better tradespeople out there but he should never have been allowed to register for insulation work under the SEI HES scheme. This is one example of the many out there. All you have to do is look for a plumber on the HES site and you will see how many are registered for insulation installation too. Equally you will also find builders / insulation contractors who are registered for heating. You wont find many electrical contractors registered for the heating controls as it is not a specified criteria under the SEI guidelines. Everyone else in the country would expect an electrician to do wiring but SEI think plumbers can do it too. My view is the a RECI cert should be a minimum requirement under HES. McCarthy may be a long way off but I think it would be a good idea to take this money away from SEI and either give it to the ESB or have someone with a brain trawl through the contractors currently registered in the scheme and straighten out the criteria because the money is being thrown away at the moment.

mary b

I couldn't agree with you more Silverber. SEI are handing out grants to people to have work done and there is no quality check in place to make sure these contractors are carrying out the work properly.(Not all contractors are guilty of this). And the before and after ber is not an adequate quality check for this, and I do BER certs myself. SEI will spend X amount on auditing BER assessors but do not think it sufficient to audit the work they are subsidising to the tune of 50 million. Pay a few building control officers to go around to check the work done, what will that cost?But as usual SEI have their head up their axxe, to busy protecting their own back, instead of looking after the poor unfortunate house holders that are being conned.

holdfast

SEI made a mess of the BER by allowing people with no background in construction to become assessors, can’t see why people are surprised at this move. I was part of the original HESS scheme and they commented on the BER standard and the advice the assessor gave to the clients so much so it would be made a requirement for the roll out. More fool me to swallow that one. Glad to hear the ESB are going a different route.

d'Oracle

SilverBER wrote: »

Yes, of course I know some top contractors who use qualified tradesmen and are fully up to speed on intallation techniques, good practice and building regs. Unfortunately, none of them are registered with SEI HES.

I would ask, why not.
In fact I'd say that is a crying ****ing shame that they aren't registered.
I probably wouldn't like the answer.

And on McCarthy, they aren't looking to cut funds because they are being badly managed.

They are looking to cut the expenditure. There will be no giving money to ESB.

The bottom line is as bad as SEI are at administering things, the HES is still there. Its still an opportunity for people to reduce the cost of retrofitting their poor quality homes with energy efficient systems. You have to play the hand you are dealt, even if the dealer is a muppet.

c_donno

Just wondering who actually gets to carry out these surveys on behalf of the E.S.B and where they are advertising for surveyors? does anybody know how much they are paying or what companies are eligable to conduct these surveys as i take it the E.S.B themselves arent doing it....

d'Oracle

c_donno wrote: »

Just wondering who actually gets to carry out these surveys on behalf of the E.S.B and where they are advertising for surveyors? does anybody know how much they are paying or what companies are eligable to conduct these surveys as i take it the E.S.B themselves arent doing it....

Not sure myself.
Possibly they are taking people on.
Possibly they are training existing staff to do them.

I'm lead to believe that the surveys will go beyond the realm of BER.

u2thepale

Rang ESB on Sunday 30th Jan to book a survey, got a call back this morning three days later (suprisingly) to schedule for next Monday .

Our house is circa 1980 and needs a lot done regarding insulation etc.. a lot of which I know about , however will be interesting to see what the report comes out with and how detailed it is.

Will post back regarding the report once I get it if anyone is interested.....

muffler

yeah, keep us updated

u2thepale

Just a quick update ...
Day has changed to this saturday morning , basically from what I could gather on the phone....

The surveyor is from http://www.iher.ie/ and they "inconjunction" with ESB are basically trying to inform people of the grants that are availbale out there from SEI. etc..
Takes around 45 mins so I'm told.

I then get a report back with recommendations and grants that are available..

mary b

Interesting. Isn't that a coincidence that the BER company doing the surveys for the ESB has a managing director that worked for the ESB for over 20 years.

But I'm sure that tendering process was all above board as usual in good old ireland!!!!!!!!!!

d'Oracle

ESB have sub contracted the process.
ESB are footing this off their own backs.

I really don't see the need for snide remarks.

mary b

And I don't think you really read my last post.
I have no doubt this was sub contracted and no doubt that they are footing the bill. My point is that the ESB are a semi state body and the company that got the tender has a managing director that worked for them for 20 years.

This might explain why alot of hard up BER assessors never got a sniff of this tender.

And just to clarify a point you made earlier, that these surveys will go beyong the realms of the BER. In what way?

muffler

Please stay on topic here.

sinnerboy

ESB Halo is a result of this directive 2006/32/EC which amongst other things obliges providers of energy to actively promote energy efficiency at end use.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2006:114:0064:0064:EN:PDF

(Watch out for the Save as you Pay scheme due later this year , the gist of which is that home energy improvements will be offered / carried out with no up front cost to the punter - paid back via fuel bills )

BER a result of this directive , 2002/91/EC http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/EPBD/deap_1_.pdf
which requires that buildings being sold or rented must have a certificate of energy performance ( BER in Ireland ) to inform the purchaser / tenant .

Like me and my brother - directly related but different

makeorbrake

<SNIP>

As regards the test itself, I think its a major missed opportunity. By virtue of the fact that they have to send people out, this scheme must nevertheless be costing a lot. However, the assessment is basic. Have a peak in attic to check insulation levels, recommend double glaze if not installed, window door seals check. Recommendations on heating controls.

A blower door test would be much more informative. An infrared thermal survey would have been much more informative. If thats asking too much, simply subsidising same would have been more beneficial.
My understanding is that the survey was carried out on behalf of the ESB via the belfast office of a company called Charles Sweet (I think it was?).
Given what sinnerboy has posted above, it seems to me that the only thing that is being achieved here is legal compliance and nothing more.




Mod edit: Stick to the topic please

Wyldwood

Had this done yesterday on 25 year old house. Guy spent half hour walking around house measuring floor area, took photo of house, stuck his head in attic and looked at boiler & controls. We already have fairly new double glazed windows and doors and have a new insulated cylinder and TRVs on all rads. At the end of his inspection he told us top up attic insulation, consider new boiler & controls. Gave us a little lecture on how if everyone reduced their carbon footprint by a small amount that would mean a huge reduction for the whole country. (felt like I was back in school!) Gave us a list of the grants available and told us we'd get a report in 2 weeks time with a list of SEI recommended installers. Nothing we didn't already know. They're not allowed comment on wall insulation but he remarked in passing that if it was his house he'd consider topping up cavity fill. It seemed a bit superficial. No draught testing or thermal imaging.

d'Oracle

Wyldwood wrote: »

It seemed a bit superficial. No draught testing or thermal imaging.

These are both expensive and invasive.
They are also largely unnecessary given the huge amount of work needed to do anything to improve either of them.
Frankly unless you are planning Big works, then these are largely useless, despite what the people who invested in them would say.

I'm not sure what your expecting. There isn't actually that much more to the BER assessment and certainly there is no requirement to explain the whys or grant programmes available, or supply you with a list of contractors.

Also bear in mind that a lot of people don't "already know"

Plus its free.

I am having great trouble coming to terms with people throwing stones at this.

u2thepale

Had my survey yesterday aswell, took in total 45 minutes .
As I had said in my earlier post , we already had a good indication of what we needed done in the house regarding insulation etc , this survey was just underlining the issues and eventually we'll get a report which will be filed under,,,,"another job needs doing "

I must agree with D'oracle though , I mean in this climate everyone is out to make a quick buck and for once something comes along that is FREE and it gets shot down ....

It's free , get it done , and it's then upto you whether you want to do anything about it!!!

I'm wondering whether the pay as you save campaign will take off .. ??
http://constructireland.ie/component/option,com_rsform/Itemid,117/

Personally I think it's a great idea, I'm waiting on a scheme that will have grants for double glazing as I'm sure many are.. ..

Wyldwood

I'm not "throwing stones" at the idea of making people aware of the need for upgrades. I'm questioning the amount of money involved in this method. I wonder if there isn't a cheaper way of letting people know what the recommendations are without sending an inspector out to each individual house. Could a mailshot with a list of current recommendations, grants available and SEI installers not work as well? Because at the end of our inspection that's what we got. I guess I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here and apologies if I'm upsetting anyone. I just think the return for the output is questionable.

d'Oracle

Wyldwood wrote: »

I'm not "throwing stones" at the idea of making people aware of the need for upgrades. I'm questioning the amount of money involved in this method. I wonder if there isn't a cheaper way of letting people know what the recommendations are without sending an inspector out to each individual house. Could a mailshot with a list of current recommendations, grants available and SEI installers not work as well? Because at the end of our inspection that's what we got. I guess I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here and apologies if I'm upsetting anyone. I just think the return for the output is questionable.

Erm, what do you mean cheaper?
You werent charged for it were you?
Personally I thing the return is sweet considering its free.
And if you are referring to ESB's output, I can assure you, its not massive.

You are going to recieve a report with recommendations, based on a survey of your house. Recommendations cannot be made without knowing what state your house is in.

Knowing the level of understanding that is out there, I can assure you that a mailshot would be the definition of half@rsery. You have to bear in mind that you might have a good level of knowledge, but a lot of people have no clue.

I think at the same time I'm a bit sensitive here cos its seems everywhere I look these days its that wink, nudge "ah sure someones taking the piss" attitude in Ireland. People just want stuff to fail or else its crooked.
HALO is a great Idea in my book, yet people seem keep digging for negatives. I'm sorry if thats not what you meant.