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What's with the anti-Republican attitudes?
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It is a list of innocent people murdered by the Volunteers who you are lauding that I compiled in a very short period of time off the top of my head. I am not ignorant I am showing you that you can dress up an organisation any way you want it is their actions that show their true metal.
This so called code of conduct, call it whatever you want as far as I am concerned its just PR. Its the blood the so called "hard done" by volunteers bathed their hands in that counts. We won't agree on this. These men as far as I am concerned and in the opinion of a lot of others on this Island are thugs, are murderers and imho their actions have held this country back rather than moved it forward.
They have tainted Republicanism forever with their short sighted tribalism and blood lust. They like all the other thug organisations in the North are the same. People who act as apologists for them are imho the real ignorant ones.
I'm not lauding them, I'm simply arguing with your point that paramilitaries were taking part to preserve their own self importance. This is deeply ignorant and I doubt you'd find many from Northern Ireland of any political persuasion that would agree with you. How could it be self importance when they were expressly forbidden from revealing they were members?
I think you've taken me up wrong - there's plenty of factual truths you can beat IRA sympathisers with, you really don't have to start making things up. I'd disagree with you if you said the same thing exclusively about loyalists which is hardly the behaviour of an IRA lauder.
Its easy to call them murderous thugs. It means you can take the moral highground without contemplating how you would react in a situation of systematic oppression(catholic/nationalist/republican background), or a situation where members of your community were being attacked and murdered.(protestant/unionist/loyalist)
To be honest I don't believe you've even bothered to read the link because then you would know it couldn't have been just PR considering it was a document found on a captured IRA man.0 -
Rainbowrapids wrote: »I'm not anti-Republican, I ascribe to the ideals of a republic. However in Ireland we had nationalist republicanism, which are really contradictory ideologies awkwardly fitting together. I'm not a nationalist, while I take great pride in where I'm from and enjoy the history, the ideals of nationalism in practice have proven to be extremely dangerous, in this country and others. Religion, an extremely emotive and devisive addition was thrown into the mix to spice it up.
Amongst other things republicanism is usually anti-imperialist and anti-monarchy, its therefore entirely within the keepings of republicanism to reject the involvement of the British Empire in Ireland. The Irish situation was further complicated by Ireland's colonial status which meant that national liberation was absolutely essential to the establishment of a republic. I'm not criticising you merely expanding on the point about contradictory ideologies, I think it is possible to believe in a cultural nation (or society, or community, etc) without believing in a nationalism. Most people who present themselves as anti-republican have not taken the time to consider any of these factors.0 -
I'm not anti-republican, I just firmly believe that many of the brave men and women involved in founding this state would be distraught to realise that their brave ideals of a republic, a belief system they held firmly despite the repressive regime or apartheid they endured, had been corrupted to manifest itself into a nationalist-republican-religious state where cronyism reigned and corrupted leaders created a state where fraternity only existed amongst a set elite, freedom was enjoyed by the rich and liberty from British reign was substituted by the reigning Bishop!0
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I know you're not I was only expanding on a point from your post. I agree with what you've said there.0
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I think the reaction to Provos is they are laughable.
Provos will defend any atrocity they carry out, claiming it was a war and ****/mistakes happens. But theyll bleat on about the SAS killing of an IRA unit as being a war crime. Their crying about "shoot to kill" policies is stomach churning for example. When they were planting bombs to kill, were they expecting the British to respond with paintballs?
Some of the more perceptive ones will recognise the inconsistency in that but will not be dissuaded by mere logic. Instead they will argue that logic should only apply to the British invader, and that Provos, being Irish, are not bound by such trivialties as reasoning or reality.
Then also is the heirarchy of victims they engage with. Provo murders of people are regrettable, but sadly were necessary, and again it was a war and **** happens. People need to move on, need to recognise the great strides the Provos have made and their contributions to the peace process...in that they have stopped bombing and murdering people. Ish.
However, British murders must be investigated and the facts raked over. No killing is to be left lie if there is any possibility of British wrong doing. Tribunals must be held, coverups and collusions uncovered. The truth must be uncovered. They are great fans of speculation, except when it comes to what various members of Sinn Fein were up to in the 1970s and 1980s, when we are again reminded that people need to move on. Victims of the Provos<Provos.
They as a movement and an organisation are utterly amoral as well. They have little or no concept of right and wrong that is not rooted in political needs and ends. Killing someone is sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. Depends on who the killer is, and what the purpose was, and if that killing was authorised by Gerry and Martin or not. I very seriously doubt if Provos are able to grasp what peoples problem is with the killing of Det. McCabe for example. Its not that they grasp it, but choose to ignore it...I think its they are emotionally incapable of sympathy with other human beings - other Provos yes, but thats not quite the same thing.
As Provos display more and more of this alien psychology, there is obviously going to be more and more of a reaction to it and thankfully that reaction is disgust.
Of course, you are always going to have Provos who claim that Republicanism isnt the same as terrorism, but at absolute best that just makes them the people with the most simplistic solutions to the most complex problems...and completely deluded to boot.0 -
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I think the reaction to Provos is they are laughable.
Provos will defend any atrocity they carry out, claiming it was a war and ****/mistakes happens. But theyll bleat on about the SAS killing of an IRA unit as being a war crime. Their crying about "shoot to kill" policies is stomach churning for example. When they were planting bombs to kill, were they expecting the British to respond with paintballs?
Some of the more perceptive ones will recognise the inconsistency in that but will not be dissuaded by mere logic. Instead they will argue that logic should only apply to the British invader, and that Provos, being Irish, are not bound by such trivialties as reasoning or reality.
Then also is the heirarchy of victims they engage with. Provo murders of people are regrettable, but sadly were necessary, and again it was a war and **** happens. People need to move on, need to recognise the great strides the Provos have made and their contributions to the peace process...in that they have stopped bombing and murdering people. Ish.
However, British murders must be investigated and the facts raked over. No killing is to be left lie if there is any possibility of British wrong doing. Tribunals must be held, coverups and collusions uncovered. The truth must be uncovered. They are great fans of speculation, except when it comes to what various members of Sinn Fein were up to in the 1970s and 1980s, when we are again reminded that people need to move on. Victims of the Provos<Provos.
They as a movement and an organisation are utterly amoral as well. They have little or no concept of right and wrong that is not rooted in political needs and ends. Killing someone is sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. Depends on who the killer is, and what the purpose was, and if that killing was authorised by Gerry and Martin or not. I very seriously doubt if Provos are able to grasp what peoples problem is with the killing of Det. McCabe for example. Its not that they grasp it, but choose to ignore it...I think its they are emotionally incapable of sympathy with other human beings - other Provos yes, but thats not quite the same thing.
As Provos display more and more of this alien psychology, there is obviously going to be more and more of a reaction to it and thankfully that reaction is disgust.
Of course, you are always going to have Provos who claim that Republicanism isnt the same as terrorism, but at absolute best that just makes them the people with the most simplistic solutions to the most complex problems...and completely deluded to boot.
It wasn't called the dirty war for nothing....
And of course the British are given carte blanche in this war as well....0 -
Does anyone else find their national pride tainted somewhat by the knowledge that our independence was gained by terrorism?
Nope, not in the slightest.Choclatesauce wrote:) Believe in racial and/or cultural purity.
So thats why Republicans have links with the PLO and the ANC....makes sense. You should tell them - it might even make one of those "specsavers" ads.0 -
So thats why Republicans have links with the PLO and the ANC....makes sense. You should tell them - it might even make one of those "specsavers" ads.
I said they're more likely to be, not that they all were, or even that more were. The same is universally true for people all over the world who are very nationalistic.0 -
My name is URL wrote: »Because some people are democratic, and don't want to see a united Ireland that was only united by force, via killing innocents
Do you know anyone that thinks "via" killing innocents a united Ireland will be delivered?0 -
I consider myself to be a republican.
I consider SF to still have strong ties with the PIRA, who love robbing Irish banks, shooting the Irish Gardai, threatening Irish people.
Oh, and because SF has used the word so many times when talking about the PIRA, that after a while, you may think that "republican PIRA" = kneecapping bank-robbing scumbags, and thus "republican PIRA" = bad.
Omagh showed that the RIRA weren't the cleverest.
As you like sweeping generalizations, bombing the british palace for the lulz = win.GodSaveTheQueen wrote: »Irish Republicans = scum bag low lifes.0 -
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Thought my 100th post should be a big one!:D
There's a reoccurring theme of threads(both on and off-topic), that deal with "the North", "SF/IRA" "Provo's" etc etc.
Most of theses threads take place in after-hours so I thought this would be the place to ask this.
Now first off, I would not consider myself a Republican, but I would have certain sympathies with those in the north that want to be part of Ireland.
Anyway, what I have noticed on Boards over the last year or so is this huge wave of fierce anti-Republicanism. It seems to me that to be anti-Republican is currently the "cool" thing to do, by showing you can think for yourself, are anti-conformist etc etc.
The anti-republican posts are not confined to the obviously understandable(and right imo) negative views of the IRA and SF, but I have seen posts which more or less denounce any achivements we have made breaking free from britain. For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads. Another popular thing is that "we'd be better off if we had stayed with Britain."
What I think is that alot of people posting these comments don't actually believe these things themselves, but rather are trying to show how "free-thinking" and "intelligent" they are...
Anyway, there's my query, tear me to shreads!:P
This sort of thing always happens, people tend to view recent history with rose tinted glasses but the next generation less so, and the next generation less so etc etc So you get people looking at what say Collins did in the context of modern examples of terrorism and thing "yep, that was basically the same thing". Just because he was doing it for us may have excused it back then in the minds of the Irish people, but that excuse wears off over the mists of time.
This generation is probably the first generation to in general, feel confident enough about Irish history to challenge the sacred cows of Republicanism.0 -
. Also more civilians were killed throughout the troubles by the British forces and the loyalist paramilitaries than the IRA. Another fact that people conveniently forget.
I am Irish, I am proud of the people that made sacrifices for my independence and I support those willing to fight to maintain it.
I support a peaceful solution, however, those who make a peaceful solution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.
actually that criminal organisation that calls itself the ira killed more than the rest combined- they also killed more catholics than some of their felow gangsters of a loyalist persuasion.
Are you proud of the sacrifice that Gerry McCabe involunarily made-
and seeing as you support peace- do you think that the ira should return ALL the money they robbed0 -
actually that criminal organisation that calls itself the ira killed more than the rest combined- they also killed more catholics than some of their felow gangsters of a loyalist persuasion.
Are you proud of the sacrifice that Gerry McCabe involunarily made-
and seeing as you support peace- do you think that the ira should return ALL the money they robbed
hey buddy , those are facts!!!
Most of the punters in here ignore those sort of things.;)0 -
FlutterinBantam wrote: »hey buddy , those are facts!!!
Most of the punters in here ignore those sort of things.;)
Facts are meaningless, they can help prove things that's even remotely true:D0 -
FlutterinBantam wrote: »hey buddy , those are facts!!!
Most of the punters in here ignore those sort of things.;)
Post your facts then old sport
I would suggest you try the lost lives site0 -
So you are a Daily Mail reporter are you?
You should be ashamed to call yourself Irish with an attitude like that.
In future just ignore facts, take a totally biased view, and call anyone who disagrees with you less than Irish.Just pour out the rhetoric and expect people to take it in
Now go out and check your calendar it's 1690 isn't it:D0 -
I'd probably fall into some of the categories mentioned by the OP in that I detest the IRA and Sinn Fein.
Despite being from a heavily Republican background, I'm not particularly nationalistic, except perhaps in more obverse ways such as culture or sport.
As a consequence, I'm not that pushed one way or another about a united Ireland even though I share much common ground with republicans when to comes to criticism of British policy in the North, Unionist misrule, Loyalism and wider left-wing social issues.
What really grinds my gears is the aggressive consensus that you can't be a critic of Irish Republicanism without your affection (I don't like the word patriotism either) for Ireland being called in question. In some cases, dreary last-resort sobriquets like 'neo-unionist' are rolled out.
I also find it quite offensive that taking a position where you acknowledge that political settlement must be found with progressive unionism (instead of saying they'll love a united Ireland when they get used it) renders my wider political views solely akin to those shared by clowns like Eoghan Harris or worse still, indicative of being supportive of unionism, Imperialism or Loyalism.0 -
The people who are voicing their disdain for republicans here are using the IRA, Sinn Féin and your typical Celtic supporting scobe... but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army, RUC, UDR. Also, I didn't know republican = terrorist/terrorist supporter. What about those who are sympathetic to republican ideals but without the violence and who despise the IRA/Sinn Féin - e.g. me? (I'm still kinda shocked by the brainwashed rhetoric from some ****ing idiots in relation to Jerry McCabe's killers being released).
The OP wasn't asking for people to launch into tirades against republican violence - he was referring to the attempts to be like CCOB, Myers, Harris etc which involves practical arse-licking of loyalists and a lack of acknowledgement of the horrors perpetrated against catholics.
Also, nationalism in this context isn't nationalism in the generic sense - it has its roots in what many believe is an unjust situation. I'm not nationalistic or patriotic but I can understand a stronger sense of national identity in contexts such as Northern Ireland, Palestine etc.0 -
This sort of thing always happens, people tend to view recent history with rose tinted glasses but the next generation less so, and the next generation less so etc etc
Right so, no doubt then your average person of planter descent will happily state that the plantation of Ulster was an act of ethnic cleansing.0 -
[but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army, RUC, UDR
Atroticies committed by anyone are deplorable and I condem each and every one of them and I bet most right thinking members of society beleive the same.The OP wasn't asking for people to launch into tirades against republican violence
He may not have asked for it- but what right thinking member of society would fail to condenm republican violence- and loyalist violence as well0 -
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but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army, RUC, UDR.
I personally would never gloss over these things. I despise and abhor any murder; under any flag.
As said elsewhere here: Provos inhabit a strange reality where their own misdeeds are rationalized, ignored or blamed on others, yet murder by the British state and its agents are raked over; enter folklore; are cannibalized endlessly at massive public cost, and brandished like an incantation whenever IRA atrocities are mentioned.
The fact is that when asked to justify anti-republican attitudes, you are often being asked to apply cultural leniency (by fear of appearing unpatriotic) to armed republicanism, but yet to apply the full weight of distaste to Imperialism and Loyalism.0 -
The people who are voicing their disdain for republicans here are using the IRA, Sinn Féin and your typical Celtic supporting scobe... but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army,RUC, UDR. Also, I didn't know republican = terrorist/terrorist supporter.
{Puts on my best Ross O'Carroll-Kelly voice}
Oooh, but that is loike sooooo last generation thinking....loike!0 -
The people who are voicing their disdain for republicans here are using the IRA, Sinn Féin and your typical Celtic supporting scobe... but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army, RUC, UDR.
That another thing about the average Provo thats pretty pathetic and laughable...whataboutery.
People were asked for the views on Provos/republicans. They gave them. Of course the tried and true Provo response is "Whatabout <insert loyalist group here>".
It only reveals that they cannot comprehend anything other than tribalism. I reckon the average loyalist and the average Provo are scumbags, seperate to the average human being ( Catholic or Protestant, Irish or English) who is not. Provos and Loyalists are a ****ing plague on everyone else in Ireland and the UK and if you managed to kill yourselves off it would be some small service to the rest of mankind.
Happy now?Also, I didn't know republican = terrorist/terrorist supporter. What about those who are sympathetic to republican ideals but without the violence and who despise the IRA/Sinn Féin - e.g. me?
Hard to respond to that seeing as you have personalised it. Any remark I make about such people might be construed as personal abuse.The OP wasn't asking for people to launch into tirades against republican violence - he was referring to the attempts to be like CCOB, Myers, Harris etc which involves practical arse-licking of loyalists and a lack of acknowledgement of the horrors perpetrated against catholics.
Another thing about Provos is that irony is lost on them...Also, nationalism in this context isn't nationalism in the generic sense - it has its roots in what many believe is an unjust situation. I'm not nationalistic or patriotic but I can understand a stronger sense of national identity in contexts such as Northern Ireland, Palestine etc.
Nationalism made sense when everyone looked the same, went to the same church and spoke the same language with the same cultural references. Now it is both out of date, and indeed dangerous. We need civic patriotism, not the sort of patriotism that leads to people planting car bombs in towns to murder the people who have been determined to be the "wrong" sort of people.
I mean, some guys in Northern Ireland dont want to pay our taxes, be treated by our health service or be a part of the NAMA bank benefits scheme. Honestly, who gives a ****? About 99% of 6 billion people on this planet agree with them so they cant all be wrong.0 -
If I come across as anti-Republican, it's because I am. The following are my reasons:
2. Nationalism is an inherently silly thing. Why be proud of something that happens completely by chance? It's handy in choosing which side to support in an International football match, but after that, it's a load of hot air.
3. I do not, under any circumstances, want a "United Ireland". Why anyone does baffles me. We are two very different countries socially, economically and historically, why try to mix them? Aside: When was the Island of Ireland ever a sovereign entity? [Answer: Never]
You are wrong about this. The root cause of conflict in Ireland is racial and ethnic. Politics in Northern Ireland is based on tribalism not abstract ideologies like Nationalism, Republicanism or Unionism. And remember your own tribe is always right.
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } Like it or not Ireland had always been a a single geographical and political entity. Prior to 1800 Ireland WAS a sovereign entity Union of 1800 was between Great Britain and Ireland, two sovereign nations.0 -
rant_and_rave wrote: »... Like it or not Ireland had always been a a single geographical and political entity. Prior to 1800 Ireland WAS a sovereign entity Union of 1800 was between Great Britain and Ireland, two sovereign nations.
I'll give you the geographic claim.
There was no political unity in Ireland before the Norman invasion.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »I'll give you the geographic claim.
There was no political unity in Ireland before the Norman invasion.
Fair point! Cú Chulainn vs. Queen Maeve of Ulster (now that's a match I'd like to see on street fighter!).
And what about Croke Park on match day - united in common urge to annihilate our neighbouring counties morelike!0 -
Right so, no doubt then your average person of planter descent will happily state that the plantation of Ulster was an act of ethnic cleansing.
I have actually come across that amongst some mates(I live in the North). One in particular who's dad was in the UVF, perhaps a rebellion thing with him though:pac:0 -
The people who are voicing their disdain for republicans here are using the IRA, Sinn Féin and your typical Celtic supporting scobe... but that still doesn't explain the glossing over atrocities perpetrated by loyalists, the British Army, RUC, UDR. Also, I didn't know republican = terrorist/terrorist supporter. What about those who are sympathetic to republican ideals but without the violence and who despise the IRA/Sinn Féin - e.g. me?
I personally think they are two sides of the same coin, nationalist and loyalists, and my summary holds largely true for both, or for nationalists of any country. If people on either side try to gloss over the atrocities committed by the other, they're being hypocrites. In this thread loyalists are being ignored because it is specifically about the republican viewpoint.
I do actually have sympathy for republican ideals; I do understand why people hold those views, I just don't share them. I can genuinely and sincerely respect individuals who hold republican ideals, just so long as they don't fit the criteria I outlined earlier.0 -
Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »how you would react in a situation of systematic oppression(catholic/nationalist/republican background), or a situation where members of your community were being attacked and murdered.(protestant/unionist/loyalist)
And remind me again what that "situation" that you describe has to do with murdering people in Adare, or in Omagh ?
Y'see, most people aren't "anti-republican"; that's an ideal and an aspiration and a hope, which people are entitled to be.
What people ARE, however is "anti-Republican", because that's the extremist movement that excuses all sorts of crap unrelated to beliefs or hopes or events in the North or elsewhere in order to excuse atrocities.
So - since you used the capital "R" in your question in the thread title - the answer is because scum have tainted the phrase and murdered people.
Smaller r = different story.
And re the old days, maybe (again) it's because in order to be an acceptable republican you need to explain everything to death in order to clarify that you're not a thug supporter.
The word has been tainted, irrevocably. Even my mum used to make a distinction between the "old IRA" and the most recent bunch of criminals and thugs and cop-killers and their sympathisers.....
Every country is born out of conflict; hell, whatever about the American Revolution or whatever it was called, the actual natural history of America would have had the native Americans ("indians") governing their own country. So even THEIR history is skewed.
I know I SHOULD be proud of my country, but as others have said the "ooh ah up the RA" idiots and the fact that the "fight against the Brits" has since been given a sour aftertaste by those who murder innocents means that it's hard to express.
If I were you, however, I would ask the following question, instead of attacking those who have merely indicated their opinion of criminality and violence:
1) Who gave SF & Co the "right" to hijack the word and associate it with crimes ? They're the ones who excuse recent atrocities, associating them with the original "cause", and thereby making people uncomfortable with the risk of being labelled an extremist or thug if they're proud of the [original] "fight against England"
2) Why does the SF logo show OUR flag - complete with "green white and orange" and what that represents, and still make excuses for those who turned the white to red, often with the blood of "green" people
3) For all your observations of a perceived bias on boards, there's a reverse; why does having a neutral opinion on boards regularly get accused of being a "West Brit" (the phrase even appears earlier in this thread)
If public opinion has changed, then those are the reasons why, and you should attack those who corrupted the phrase with their tactics and weasel words, not those of us who object to that corruption.0 -
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Calling it anti-Republicanism is a cheap straw man, most "anti-Republicans" will rant about Omagh etc but couldn't care less about most of the less high profile issues and of course the annoying thing about these people is that they confuse "Militant Republicanism" with "republicanism" but meh, it's not really that surprising, most of us posting on here are under 30 or in our early 30s, that means the Troubles started before we were born. We grew up listening to reports on the news of the deaths and killings going on. Of course a fair percentage of us were turned against "republicanism" for us growing up it represented murder in our young minds. It's not a valid view of republicanism which is a far broader and milder church that that which supported the PIRA etc but it's unsurprising that there was a generational shift in attitude.
I'm not anti-Republican, I honestly couldn't give a **** what happens to the six counties so long as people stop shedding blood over the issue. I respect those with a pacifistic 32 county ideal, I disagree with them but I can respect their beliefs/opinions. The thing is I've often been accused of the former simply because I'm not a Republican and such bigoted attitude is another reason why there's such a vocal anti-Republican minority around the place.0
This discussion has been closed.
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