What's with the anti-Republican attitudes?

RiverWilde · 14-08-2009 3:55pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

Regrettable as civilian casualties are, they have to be expected in a war situation. Jesus, how many civilians have died in all the countless wars since man first evolved from throwing rocks at his fellow man? It's a fact of war, and conflict is a fact of human nature, deal with it.

Deal with it? Ah no ... you're assuming such actions are legitimate. They're not. So I don't have to 'deal with it.' The actions you seem to espouse are illegal, criminal activities. Nothing more.

Riv

José Alaninho · 14-08-2009 3:56pm

WillieCocker wrote: »

Oh videos to back up your claims that the state are terrorists.....here's a few videos for you, i know you won't watch them.:rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/v/EjvvKq5NqD0&hl=en&fs=1&

http://www.youtube.com/v/EjvvKq5NqD0&hl=en&fs=1&

I did watch them actually. Just more media speculation tbh, it's never been proven who killed Paul Quinn.

José Alaninho · 14-08-2009 3:59pm

RiverWilde wrote: »

Deal with it? Ah no ... you're assuming such actions are legitimate. They're not. So I don't have to 'deal with it.' The actions you seem to espouse are illegal, criminal activities. Nothing more.

Riv

In your opinion. I feel they were legitimate acts in support of a legitimate conflict. So, I guess we could go round in circles like this all evening?

Nodin · 14-08-2009 4:24pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Explain to me how that - damning as it is - "progressed" to become robbing banks, dragging people off to bogs to kneecap and kill them, blowing up innocent shoppers, and murdering Gardai ?

Fund raising, killing informers, reprisals, as you know full well.

Riverwilde wrote:

It's not an overly simplistic analysis of the situation ... the majority of the people in the north of Ireland want to remain citizens of the UK. A minority do not. That does not give the minority the right to murder innocent citizens in support of some 'ideal.'

As pointed out to you twice now, the direct fuel for the conflict was violence and discrimination with the sectarian statelet, not 'some ideal'.

K-9 · 14-08-2009 4:42pm

S-Murph wrote: »

You should not imply that. But nor should it be automaitically assumed that their authority as gardai protecting cash was merititious.

Each case must be looked at and questions asked.

Grand, can you look at the McCabe case and outline your position. Might make it clearer.

FlutterinBantam · 14-08-2009 4:47pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

In your opinion. I feel they were legitimate acts in support of a legitimate conflict. So, I guess we could go round in circles like this all evening?

As no doubt you are well versed in doing mate.

José Alaninho · 14-08-2009 4:54pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

As no doubt you are well versed in doing mate.

When dealing with people such as yourself, indeed I am. Can't be helped really...

FlutterinBantam · 14-08-2009 4:59pm

There ya go mate... hasta la vista.

S-Murph · 14-08-2009 5:05pm

K-9 wrote: »

Grand, can you look at the McCabe case and outline your position. Might make it clearer.

Im not entirely familiar with the case.

But looking at the 'wiki' account, things I would consider are 1, Whether I would agree with the goals of the PIRA, 2, what the cash appropriation was used for, 3, whether Jerry McCabe was armed and would he have used violence to assert state authority, 4, was the murder necessary to achieve the goal of appropriation, 5, was the operation condoned and in-line a with the will of the PIRA leadership.

These are just some things just looking at it there I would consider.

I dont know the answer to all of them.

But while the PIRA have carried out barbaric actions in the past, i wouldnt necessarily judge the entire organisation on that basis.

Similarly, while the Gardai do enforce societal inequality, and the fatal consequences of this, it does not necessarily mean the Gardai should be opposed in all situations, for without them, many problems would emerge.

Im not particularly fond of the PIRA, however I believe they have a right to exist and use armed struggle against suitable targets. I think armed struggle quite possibly can achieve its goal if conducted in the right way. I beleieve that goal to be just.

RiverWilde · 14-08-2009 5:08pm

Nodin wrote: »

As pointed out to you twice now, the direct fuel for the conflict was violence and discrimination with the sectarian statelet, not 'some ideal'.

You can justify murder and other illegal activities all you like, it doesn't change what it is.

Riv

K-9 · 14-08-2009 5:10pm

S-Murph wrote: »

Im not entirely familiar with the case.

But looking at the 'wiki' account, things I would consider are 1, Whether I would agree with the goals of the PIRA, 2, what the cash appropriation was used for, 3, whether Jerry McCabe was armed and would he have used violence to assert state authority, 4, was the murder necessary to achieve the goal of appropriation, 5, was the operation condoned and in-line a with the will of the PIRA leadership.

These are just some things just looking at it there I would consider.

I dont know the answer to all of them.

But while the PIRA have carried out barbaric actions in the past, i wouldnt necessarily judge the entire organisation on that basis.

Similarly, while the Gardai do enforce societal inequality, and the fatal consequences of this, it does not necessarily mean the Gardai should be opposed in all situations, for without them, many problems would emerge.

Im not particularly fond of the PIRA, however I believe they have a right to exist and use armed struggle against suitable targets. I think armed struggle quite possibly can achieve its goal if conducted in the right way. I beleieve that goal to be just.

It was not PIRA sanctioned.

Liam Byrne · 14-08-2009 5:12pm

Nodin wrote: »

Fund raising, killing informers, reprisals, as you know full well.

Gerry McCabe was an informer ? News to me.

Anyway, that's irrelevant.

"Fund raising" - if they had the support that they claim, they'd have had donations. If I want to donate to a cause, I will, but having that cause rob me is not on.

"Killing informers" - Who said they were informers ? Maybe they were people doing their civic duty and reporting criminal acts.

"Reprisals" - great word, as it implies more "whataboutery", in that it means someone did something else first.

Unfortunately, in my book a "reprisal" is against those who COMMITTED the original offence, not against random innocent people who had SFA to do with the initial act.

If someone thumps me outside a nightclub, I'll thump THEM back; I won't beat the ****e out of the whole nightclub including those who would probably have supported me had I not acted inappropriately.

Nodin wrote: »

As pointed out to you twice now, the direct fuel for the conflict was violence and discrimination with the sectarian statelet, not 'some ideal'.

Then target those who did the violence and discrimination, and I'll understand. Just don't blow the bollox out of innocents and expect me to overlook that.

There's an AMOUNT of bull**** in this thread - I love the way someone even questioned the "merit" of Gardai protecting OUR money in transit - sheesh! :rolleyes: Talk about absolute delusion!

Whatever about "normal" republicans who take responsibility for their actions, the amount of bull**** on this thread is indicative of the reasons why the extremists will never be taken seriously.

colsku · 14-08-2009 5:12pm

Reillyman wrote: »

Thought my 100th post should be a big one!:D

There's a reoccurring theme of threads(both on and off-topic), that deal with "the North", "SF/IRA" "Provo's" etc etc.

Most of theses threads take place in after-hours so I thought this would be the place to ask this.

Now first off, I would not consider myself a Republican, but I would have certain sympathies with those in the north that want to be part of Ireland.

Anyway, what I have noticed on Boards over the last year or so is this huge wave of fierce anti-Republicanism. It seems to me that to be anti-Republican is currently the "cool" thing to do, by showing you can think for yourself, are anti-conformist etc etc.

The anti-republican posts are not confined to the obviously understandable(and right imo) negative views of the IRA and SF, but I have seen posts which more or less denounce any achivements we have made breaking free from britain. For example, many people have expressed the view that Michael Collins, Padraig Pearse etc etc were "terrorists"...I mean, come on lads. Another popular thing is that "we'd be better off if we had stayed with Britain."

What I think is that alot of people posting these comments don't actually believe these things themselves, but rather are trying to show how "free-thinking" and "intelligent" they are...

Anyway, there's my query, tear me to shreads!:P

I have no problem with the idea of a United Ireland in principle, but becasue I hate the lower class of Ireland so much, I refuse to join them in any way!

FlutterinBantam · 14-08-2009 5:14pm

colsku wrote: »

I have no problem with the idea of a United Ireland in principle, but becasue I hate the lower class of Ireland so much, I refuse to join them in any way!

As Dave F:Danning would say "Good man yourself"

S-Murph · 14-08-2009 5:18pm

K-9 wrote: »

It was not PIRA sanctioned.

Well there you go then, no, I probably would oppose his killing on that basis.

But then im not sure what relevance the killings have to republicanism, or the PIRA, if it were the actions of a few individuals.

One thing that always mystified me about paramilitaries is that they tend to defend actions which were not condoned by the organisation. Dessie O Hare for example led a split off from the INLA and chopped a dentists finger off - yet he was defended by the organisation for which he split.

I find it bizzare.

Liam Byrne · 14-08-2009 5:25pm

S-Murph wrote: »

One thing that always mystified me about paramilitaries is that they tend to defend actions which were not condoned by the organisation.

It's not JUST the paramilitaries.....SF's stance on Gerry McCabe's murderers was the same, despite it being against the law of the land (relevant) and also being "unsanctioned" and "against the green book" (personally irrelevant to me because I'm not the one who wrote my own laws, but you'd imagine it'd be relevant to them).

K-9 · 14-08-2009 5:28pm

S-Murph wrote: »

Well there you go then, no, I probably would oppose his killing on that basis.

But then im not sure what relevance the killings have to republicanism, or the PIRA, if it were the actions of a few individuals.

One thing that always mystified me about paramilitaries is that they tend to defend actions which were not condoned by the organisation. Dessie O Hare for example led a split off from the INLA and chopped a dentists finger off - yet he was defended by the organisation for which he split.

I find it bizzare.

Well I'd have my suspicions that it was sanctioned, or at least known about, but given the reaction and that it could have endangered the ceasefire and peace process, it was swiftly denied. Ferris greeting them supports my suspicion!

Anyway, I think the point you bring up is one reason why there is hatred of some Republican supporters. I think it's a defend at all costs mentality, ironically!

nesf · 14-08-2009 5:30pm

This thread is just going around in circles at this point and both camps are equally entrenched and unlikely to compromise with the other.

This thread will be locked fairly soon, if you have something to say get it off your chest now etc.

FlutterinBantam · 14-08-2009 5:34pm

Lock her up Nessie... run it's course.

Nodin · 14-08-2009 6:11pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Gerry McCabe was an informer ? News to me..

Don't twist my words, I never said he was. While I don't care for your constant waving of bloody sheets in place of an argument, you'll find distortion is something that I won't tolerate.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Anyway, that's irrelevant...

...sez he, quickly running away from the muck he threw.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Fund raising" - if they had the support that they claim, they'd have had donations. If I want to donate to a cause, I will, but having that cause rob me is not on....

Thank you for bringing your expertise on the financing of armed groups to bear on this question. You should have really been on the audit team.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Killing informers" - Who said they were informers ? Maybe they were people doing their civic duty and reporting criminal acts.....

Semantics and whinging combined doth a weak point make. If they informed, they were putting lives at risk.

stovelid · 14-08-2009 6:20pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

In your opinion. I feel they were legitimate acts in support of a legitimate conflict.

Anybody (from any side) that kills unarmed civilians can barely call themselves a man, let alone a solider.

Cowardly, hateful dirtbirds.

Your squalid little war is now as irrelevant as your mandate. Thank Jesus.

Liam Byrne · 14-08-2009 6:21pm

Nodin wrote: »

Don't twist my words, I never said he was. While I don't care for your constant waving of bloody sheets in place of an argument, you'll find distortion is something that I won't tolerate.

The only reference to "killing" in your reply was - and I quote - "killing informers".

Nodin wrote: »

...sez he, quickly running away from the muck he threw.

Not at all. By all means, tell me on what basis McCabe was murdered; in what twisted corner of the "republican" mindset this was "justifiable". Because - given that they fecked off with the cash unguarded once the two Gardai were lying dying, it sure as hell wasn't "fundraising".

Nodin wrote: »

Thank you for bringing your expertise on the financing of armed groups to bear on this question. You should have really been on the audit team.

Listen, if there's a worthwhile "cause" that wants money, and I agree with their aims AND THEIR TACTICS, I'll donate. I don't see SightSavers or St Vincent de Paul running around robbing banks.

Nodin wrote: »

Semantics and whinging combined doth a weak point make. If they informed, they were putting lives at risk.

Funny, that - there's a guy who was sitting minding his own business in "The Steering Wheel" bar in Limerick whose family probably felt the brunt of a similar mindset.....are you OK with his murder, too ?

And if not, why not ?

P.S. I challenge you to highlight even ONE part of that post that included "whinging" ? :rolleyes: Typical! As soon as you start losing your argument you attempt to imply that any legitimate point made against you is "whinging"....pathetic! Apologies to the mods, as I'm not normally that critical or direct re a post, but if ANYONE views the following....

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Killing informers" - Who said they were informers ? Maybe they were people doing their civic duty and reporting criminal acts.....

....as "whinging", they're SERIOUSLY deluded! I even included the word "Maybe", FFS - going completely against my own beliefs that they were, indeed, doing their civic duty - in order to allow for a differing opinon!!! "Whinging", my arse!

José Alaninho · 14-08-2009 6:22pm

stovelid wrote: »

Anybody (from any side) that kills unarmed civilians can barely call themselves a man, let alone a solider.

Cowardly, hateful dirtbirds.

Rawr, rabble rabble rabble...

FlutterinBantam · 14-08-2009 6:24pm

José Alaninho wrote: »

Rawr, rabble rabble rabble...

Don't show yourself up buddy.

José Alaninho · 14-08-2009 6:33pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Don't show yourself up buddy.

Go to hell. This thread is too f*cked up, even for me....

Nodin · 14-08-2009 6:36pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The only reference to "killing" in your reply was - and I quote - "killing informers".!

I gave a list as a reply. As it happens McCabe was killed during some sort of fund raising operation.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Listen, if there's a worthwhile "cause" that wants money, and I agree with their aims AND THEIR TACTICS, I'll donate. I don't see SightSavers or St Vincent de Paul running around robbing banks.".!

Your the final arbitrator on whats "worthwhile" now? And stop trying to reduce this to the absurd.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And if not, why not ?.".!

More attempts at the above.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

P.S. (....)the following....?.".!

You never address root causes or events as part of a pattern. Its 'LIST OF ATROCITIES - WRONG-BAD,BAD, BAD!' and any attempt to move past that for the sake of some overall perspective is once again assailled with more emotional bombardment.

My point, such as it was, was that the conflict primarily occurred because of decades of discrimination in the Northern statelet, not some starry eyed concept of a united Ireland.

Liam Byrne · 14-08-2009 6:36pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Don't show yourself up buddy.

Ah, leave the guy alone....it's the most unobjectionable thing he's said so far.

oscarBravo · 14-08-2009 6:48pm

Thread closed, predictably.

What's with the anti-Republican attitudes?

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